AITA for arguing with my wife's family regarding an imminent family vacation and how to divide expenses?

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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:

(1) I am not letting the other families make a decision that will benefit them and make other people pay more. I am fighting against that. (2) I'm not agreeing and I'd rather have an argument just few days before we leave.

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Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.

NTA

It's not that they don't understand, it's that they don't care.

What they understand is that they don't want to pay. What they care about is not paying.

But you really should have sorted this out in the planning stages, not the finalization stages.

I think you're missing what they are trying to do. You are correct with your math, but they aren't trying to do the most fair thing. They're trying to help out the family as a whole. You're think of this as a pure business transaction, and they aren't. They know that some people will benefit from this while others will be picking up the slack for others. NAH

INFO: what does your wife think? is this how her family has done trips in the past? how much money are we actually talking about here?

i'm not saying you're wrong about it being not fair, and you and your wife need to discuss what makes sense for you financially as a couple. but there are plenty of families where people see "subsidizing" nieces and nephews (or anyone without an income or money who is part of the family and coming on the trip) as just part of doing an extended family trip.

You can't "make them" understand if everyone else (including other people with fewer/no kids) don't have a problem with this and see it as part of their normal views on family. but it's hard to tell from your post what the dynamic is among everyone else other than the two families pushing this plan.

YTA for not fully explaining how this is working in your post.

Your family is going on an excursion that costs $1700 no matter how many people actually go. Your relatives decided that the fairest way to handle things was to divide things evenly by number of incomes per household.

You are free to disagree with this split, but arguing about it doesn’t matter. Everyone else, including your wife, is fine with it. So accept that this is how things are being paid for and either get over it or refuse to participate.

But you made it sound like they want this split for the entire vacation, when it’s actually just this one activity.

"Also, how do I make them understand?"....you don't. You are the only one with the problem. The time to have done this would have been wayyyy before a few days prior to leaving.

I tend to agree with you that it is not equitable. But I do believe the time to address it has passed and if everyone is ready to throw down the money, let it be or don't go.

YTA

Why does it need to be perfectly mathematically "fair"?

It's a family vacation. Sounds like they've come up with a way that roughly ascibes a price based on peoples abilities to pay and achieves the goal of a holiday everyone goes on.

It's not an unusual way of divvying up the cost.

ESH.

They are definitely trying to take advantage, but you should have voiced your concerns way earlier. They will never understand, because they don’t want to. Don’t understand them back. Just throw your hands up. Say, I don’t understand this, so we will just cover our immediate family and the rest of you can use whatever system you want.

It sounds like the thinking is that all the adults pitch in as a family to ensure all the kids get to have a good time and do the same things, regardless of if that kid is their kid. Which if so I gotta lean YTA unless this presents an astronomical financial burden on you that wouldn't be hitting you otherwise.

It's possible for you to be correct about the logic but wrong about the need to argue.

How much are you being asked to pay versus what your model shows you should pay? How much is family harmony worth to you?

It sounds like this model benefits the single parent, is worse for the DINKs, and has something of a built-in "grandchild provider" subsidy. While not totally fair, is it really that awful?

NTA

You are not technically wrong but it is a waste of time trying to make the rest of the family agree with you.

I’m the single, no kids, fun with a relatively high paying job Aunt. When my family goes on vacations together this is how we split. My brothers have the same numbers in their families so the two who end up “subsidizing” the trip are me and my widowed Mother. But we do this knowing it going in. It’s worth it to have the time with the kids in the family. And to be fair, lots of times my brothers pick up the groceries & tell us we don’t owe them anything.

If this boating day is truly the only issue, there are a couple of other ways to approach it. Can you & your wife just say you don’t want to participate that day? Have some much needed alone time? You don’t say if you have kids. If they are old enough, it would be funny if you sent them for “free”.

Or could you rent a smaller boat, maybe for your family only or 2 families? Then each boat can work out how to split the costs. It seems like a large boat for 20 people might be more than a few smaller vessels, plus kind of a mad house. Maybe not.

Otherwise just go with it if it’s not creating a financial burden on you and the others who end up paying extra. To me it would be too much trouble to develop a “kids” price. They probably eat less but need more time and attention from the crew so should maybe tip more? But if we are talking growing teenagers, they might eat more than any adult!

Good luck! You can know your right, but not let this spoil the vacation however it works out.

INFO: What type of expenses are suggested being split?

Accommodations? Food? Tickets for activities?

Kids obviously shouldn’t be paying but they still cost money so their parents are paying for their “share.”

Are we talking about there’s a 6 bedroom house & each family gets a room or there’s a 10 bedroom house & the families with kids are getting multiple rooms?

Are we talking about tickets to the water park where the kids cost $15 but adults cost $30 and the total is split amongst the adults?

Are we talking about grocery food bills where obviously one family of 6 is eating more than the one couple?

I think YTA for not being specific on what you're splitting in your OP. I was on your side until I read that you're only splitting the cost of one 20-person boat excursion. So, the number of kids doesn't really matter, the boat will cost the same no matter how many kids are there. Our extended family probably would have divided per family unit, your ILs decided to make each adult pay, which isn't crazy. You made it sound like everything from dinners to amusement park tickets were being divided this way. Now that would be unfair.

I don't understand why you are making such a major deal about whether it is "fair" or not. Your wife wants to subsidize some of her family members, and you and your wife can afford to help fund the subsidy. It appears that your sole reason for this argument is to prove a point. My wife and I have been married for over 40 years, and are in a position to be able to afford to subsidize extended family events, the concept of "fair" is not one we would even consider in our decisions about events like this.

Is the excursion charging per child? The way I am understanding the parents are splitting the costs evenly. Is that correct? So the people with more kids are getting a deal?

I guess it doesn't even matter if it's per person because you still need something bigger to accommodate the entire group.

I don't think you're wrong but it seems that's the disconnect is that the family isn't making a difference between one child and 4.

In this case if your wife is fine and y'all can afford it I would just let it go.

I have no comment other than I would rather dive into a bee hive than to go on a vacation with that many people and kids. The End.

If it were me, I wouldn't go on the boat excursion and not pay anything towards it. They understand, they just don't want to have to pay their fare share.

INFO - is money an issue for you or for any of the families involved? Because if not - if everyone can easily swing the $140 or whatever - than I can imagine that your wife’s family understands some of them are getting more of a deal and they just don’t care. It’s easiest / most straightforward to divide the cost up evenly, and none of them care if there’s a $20 or $40 swing one direction or another, because they’re family and at the end of they day it’s just not a big deal.  

If you’re more upset about this because of principle and not because the money is actually an issue, then I’d tend to lean Y T A, esp since this is your wife’s family at the end of the day. Some families are more strict about splitting costs exactly evenly and some just don’t stress about it because everyone can afford it. Possible your in laws are the latter. 

I get your frustration. My question is how much do the kids add to the excursion, and when divided amongst the adults how much are you paying for the other people's kids? Being able to show that the kids are costing you an extra $200 is one thing, if it ends up being $20 the it starts to sound petty,.

If its a nominal amount then I'd let it go, if it's significant then it's worth the argument.

YTA - and starting some stuff with your WIFE's family for nothing. They decided to split the bill amongst the adults and it sounds to me like you don't understand the math. It isn't a math formula, it is a decision that it sounds like only you do not like and are blaming it on the MATH. Everybody gets the math, you don't get that you are rude and arrogant to think they don't.

Info - when did this conversation start? was this brought up by someone recently. Seems odd to be discussing this now, with only a few days before the vacation starts. How much money are we talking about? That’s ridiculous to contribute money to pay for other people’s children. I guess you could simply refuse to pay more beyond the costs for your kids.

INFO - when was this split decided on?

ESH. Of course it would be more fair to divide it the other way but you have been over ruled. Either accept it and let it go or don’t go on the trip.

Your wife's family wants to divide the cost this way. It doesn't make sense to you or to most other people but that's what they have chosen. You can either go along with it or do something else, which would make it more expensive for everyone. YWBTA if you continue to argue about it.

YTA- should you all weigh yourselves so you can divide it up truly evenly based on who will add more weight on the boat?

Stop being petty. this is your family and 100$ isn’t worth ruining your vacation over.

NTA, but if the boat includes food and drink, the kid's price should be half to 2/3rds the adult price.  Offer a compromise.  If there are 6 kids 11 adults, Split it amongst 14 with each adult having a full share and each kid having a half share.

INFO Are there significant disposable income differences between the various family groups? If the payment scheme ends up being per adult, will that keep anyone from going? If it ends up being per person, will that keep anyone from going? the family with 4 kids will save over $200 by keeping it adults-pay, and the 2-person couple will pay a bit over $100 more. Are these numbers a significant enough line item to cause lots of strife over?

I'm not sure there are any outright assholes, but I'm also not sure this is worth the relationship capital it might take to get your side to prevail. These are your in laws. Don't make them into your outlaws!

Idk, you're right for sure, but is this hill worth dying on? NTA.

YTA. You’re correct. Your concerns are justified. Now is not the time, and you (as an in law) are probably not the person to be bringing it up. Your wife, possibly as your mouthpiece, should have brought this up when the topic of paying was discussed.

If it’s just coming up now, I guess it is when it has to be discussed, but should still likely come through your wife.

Your job, as frustrating as it may be, is to be quiet, put on a happy face, consider this water under the bridge, and have the best vacation you can.

Do you have nieces/nephews on your side of the family? Close friends with kids? Thank them for being so clear about the financials and you'll be bringing 8 kids.

NTA but you don't have the math right either. Usually smaller children cost less than adult. Just tell them that you'll pay for your wife and yourself and they can figure the rest out between them.

Yeah... I just wouldn't go on the excursion then and pick something else for my family to do. They can deal with their mess...... Even if it's costs more for you...at least it will be peaceful.

NTA for pointing it out. Sounds to me like they’re aware and want it that way, with the perception of what is fair resting in a different area than where you place it. Parents aren’t paying for kids. The family’s adults are paying for the kids.

NTA and I wouldn't go on the excursion if it means that much. Of course, I'm not one for boat trips with 19 other people either

NTA. They understand.  The trip should be divided by the total number of people if sharing all expenses like food, lodging, and activities.  

If this is something them not budging on will upset you and ruin your vacation there are 2 options.   1- not go. Take the money you would have paid and just do something with your family.  2- have each family pay for their own food and activities.  Then split the lodging by number of rooms.  So if a family takes up more rooms than the others, they pay for that. 

You aren’t wrong

You can’t make them understand, they do not want too

It’s your wife family, in these situations with my husband whoever’s family it is gets to decide how to proceed with the family , and the other person decides if they participate or not. It works well for us

NTA. You pay for your family. That’s it. Let the freeloaders fight amongst themselves.

If it makes no difference, they would not be fighting it. They clearly understand they are saving money.

NTA

NTA. Back out and make your own arrangements

We always divide such things by number of families. It makes it easier cause we've got a huge family. 9 families and about 30 people with kids.

Seems like not everyone is reading your edits or comments and just asking the same thing over and over 😅 I would tell them that everyone is responsible for paying for their own kids… it would not surprise me if they also wanted you and your wife to look for them while they are having fun… NTA

NTA They are playing dumb because is in their best interest to "not understand". Just book the activities for you & your immediate family and be done with the discussion.

NTA Don't take the trip with them. Take your own trip.

Your solution is to NOT go on vacations with those people in the future.

NTA

NTA. My sister with 6 kids tried to pull this crap. We had one kid and kept being told we should pay for her kids. Like no, we budgeted based on costings for our family of 3. They tried to get us to pay for a family ticket (2 adults and 3 kids) for one of the zoos we went to. I asked if I was going to be reimbursed because there was a AUD60 difference between a family of 3 and a family of 5 ticket, was told not to be greedy. I got our family of 3 ticket and walked off. I didn’t mind paying for drinks and snacks for all the kids, but was not paying for the tickets. My brother (no kids) and other sisters (1 with no kids and one with 3 kids) also said no to paying extra for tickets.

We took an extended family 2-week road trip every summer for years. I was in charge of the budget. We counted kids for costs (food, excursions, etc.), but divided the total cost by the number of adults. We had enough different generations that at some point, each family benefited.

Usually when we do an excursion  its something like adults $100 and kids to to 12 (or 14 or 15) $75

However some activities just charge a flat fee per person.

I can see why some families think just adult head count. 

A single month would pay $140 instead of $255 but the couple no kids would  pay $280, or couple with 4 kids would pay $280 instead of $510

I suspect OP is the couple with no kids 

I can understand both points of view.

The thing is, this is a family trip, and you can argue that you could rent a smaller boat without the kids but it wouldnt be a family excursion anymore. In your story, adults will pay for everyone to enjoy an activity and it is not "kids shouldnt pay" but more "kids shouldnt count in the calculation" like, you are going to do the activity with them anyway.

So the question is, do you consider the kids as your family / do you want to be around them for the excursion? You can say no, in your place I wouldnt participate because I don't like to be around kids especially in such situation. But I wouldnt even try to argue with them

NAH but you would if you wait to be on the trip to make changes in the budget. Just say now if you go or not.

NTA yet.

How long have you been married into this family?

There appear to be dynamics you aren't privy to yet.

Perhaps for years, they've been subsidizing for a low income family, or single parent that can't afford the trip on their own.

We want to take a family trip with the "whole" family, not just the ones that can afford it.

After reading the comment that your just chartering a entire boat, I think ESH with you taking more of the suckage here.

The boat I think should be split equally by the adults, food and rental equipment should be done by family/person.

I think in the end you're all quibbling over few bucks that doesn't really matter that much since you're all lucky enough in life to be renting a whole ass 20 person boat. If it's that important to account for basically 110 bucks, just don't go.

Kids cost money. Period.

Any parent that denies this is lying.

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Pretty soon we'll go to a family vacation. There will be 6 families, ranging from 2 to 6 people. 20 people in total.
We will do some activities and a couple of families insist that kids shouldn't pay and the total expenses should be divided between the adults.

This way, a couple with 4 kids will pay the same as a couple with 1 kid, or a single mom with 2 kids will pay half of what a couple with 1 kid will pay (both families have 3 people).....and so on. It's pretty obvious and definitely not fair.

I'm the only one that is opposing and arguing/fighting just few days before we leave. The other families either don't want to get into an argument or don't understand the problem/math.

I tried to explain that they are confusing kids not paying, because their parents pay for them, with kids being free, which is not the case.
I tried to present the math, I tried to give them other examples. Nothing worked. I feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone.
The 2 families that insist will benefit the most from this, but I don't want to think that they are dishonest. I really think that they don't understand.

Am I the asshole?
Also, how do I make them understand?

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YTA. It's not that you're wrong, it's that you're arguing about this with just a few days left before you all leave.

The finances should have been worked out well in advance. At that point, if you couldn't all come to a fair agreement, you could simply have declined to participate in that vacation. The only thing you needed to make them understand was that you won't go if you think it's unfair. They don't have to agree; they just have to wave goodbye as they go and you don't

Nta if you’re taking about hundreds of dollars. If it’s less than 100 more on balance you’ll pay then you should let it go. You are not responsible for paying for other people’s kids. And this is why we never have vacation drama - we all just pay for ourselves /our kids. Like grownups. We might treat other family members sometimes to some things but that’s up to us, and it’s just as a gift with nothing expected in return.

NTA and I hate trips like this. Not having kids it is annoying for me to have to chip to subsidise SIL with her 4 kids or BIL with his brood of 6. Easiest way is just to say fine, if you think it's fair, then you can split it amongst you, but I'll be paying my own bills for just me and my family.

Nta in principle but the ship has sailed when it comes to this vacation. Everyone except you is on board with this. 

The only thing you can do is make sure it doesn't happen for any future vacations. 

Is the excursion charging per child? The way I am understanding the parents are splitting the costs evenly. Is that correct? So the people with more kids are getting a deal?

I guess it doesn't even matter if it's per person because you still need something bigger to accommodate the entire group.

I don't think you're wrong but it seems that's the disconnect is that the family isn't making a difference between one child and 4.

In this case if your wife is fine and y'all can afford it I would just let it go.

INFO: are you on the low end or high end of the number of children? Are there maybe 1-2 family activities being planned as group prices and everything else is individual family?

Tentative E S H because of a lack of general communication (though that may be on OP).

If this is a “family excursion” and other excursions are, the group scenario makes more sense. ESPECIALLY if there is a family with 4 children who aren’t doing most excursions already because of cost and this is the family’s way of supporting them so everybody can enjoy 1-2 things together, which is what it sounds like to me.

Who actually WANTS to do this excursion (and who are going because other people want to)

Before booking it needs to be made clear the price is x (per person) and everyone should have the option to say ' that's too pricey for me I won't go' without being badgered into going as otherwise the price goes up for everyone else

NTA.  Rather than futilely trying to convince ppl (seriously, they just want to pay less), tell them that you'll only be paying your fair share and nothing else.  If they come up short, too bad.  Not your problem.  If they still won't budge, just don't go.  Take those in your immediate family and do something else.  This is like a group of ppl going out and splitting the bill evenly despite someone ordering lots of drinks and the most expensive item on the menu. Hell no!  Its not your responsibility to subsidize anyone else.

NTA. I would not go with the group on that excursion. Do your own thing that day.

NTA. If you're in shared accommodations, pay by bedroom. For meals and activities, each family pays for themselves.

Nta. There are none so blind as those who WILL not see. They are choosing to pretend they think this is fair. They don't. They know they are taking advantage and are playing games. Feel free to play games right back and then be sure to not travel with them again.

Don't go. Let them go and enjoy their "kids are free" vacation, you take your own and enjoy paying only for you and your own little family.

NTA

NTA you pay for your kids, how is that hard to understand?

NTA but from now on I wouldn’t plan a trip with any of them unless this is sorted well in advance. They understand what you’re saying, they just don’t care and want you to offset their costs. 

NTA. But they are a bunch of greedy parasites who know EXACTLY what they are doing. They are using you to subsidize their family vacation. Don't stand for that crap, do NOT go if this is how it will be, period! Goddamned entitled leeches!

NTA. If this is for an excursign, tell them the adult and children ticket prices and ask who wants to go. Seems simple.

NTA - How do you make them understand? Don't go. If the kid costs money then the family pays. This is not rocket science.

NTA - you can't convince them because splitting the check is to their benefit, so they'll play dumb till the cows come home.  DON'T share expenses.  Get your own lodging, split checks at restaurants, etc.  The only way to win this stupid game is to not play.

Everyone should pay their own way

The people who insists on splitting the dinner bill always run up the tab the most. They ABSOLUTELY know what they are doing, and so do these families in your situation.

NTA. Call them out for the cheapskates they are. If the are "conservatives" make sure to call them socialists for trying to get others to subsidized their cost.

I assure you, they understand. They understand perfectly, but they think it would be nice if other families would subsidize their kids. Assuming you don't want to do so, I think you need to go on a different vacation.

NTA

The families should split the cost of accommodation according to the number of rooms they require. If a family needs a second room, they should pay for the second room. For food prepared in the rental, I think it would be nice to split per family. If you go to restaurants, each family should pay their own bill. I have a BIL who tends to order every appetizer on the menu and far more drinks than we would. He also has by far the highest income.

If the other families are struggling and you can afford to split all bills per family, that would be the kind thing to do. One of my brothers tends to pay for everything because he and his wife earn more than everyone else put together.

Believe me, they understand. They just want to pay less.

NTA
The kids are taking up a spot that could be occupied by a paying adult therefore their parents get to pay full price for their kids! There is no reason that you should be expected to subsidize the cost, their kids, their responsibility!!
If you want to compromise, maybe each child could count as 1/2 fare. They do usually pay less.

NTA.

I think you might need to let go of trying to convince the entire herd of cats to listen to your mathematical reasoning, but you can save yourself!

Say that the policy you and your family will be following is that your family pays their own way. You will be paying for your family's tab... be that tickets to a theme park, bill at a restaurant, etc. You'll be keeping it all separate for clarity's sake.

If folks argue, just say- no thanks, this is the best way to ensure we cover all our own costs.

If they continue to argue, again say - Our family will pay for our family. Thanks!

Each parent buys their own tickets and the tickets for their children. Easy peasy. Simply say No, we are not splitting the cost of Disney tickets equally. If someone doesn’t “understand”. Reply: We need 3 tickets and the cost is $300, I only have $300, therefore I cannot pay for anyone else. And if you can help the single parent out any, that would be kind.

Practice - Sorry, I can’t afford that. Be sure when you go to a restaurant, tell the staff who you are paying for..

You can be right and the YTA. Most excursions like renting a boat are only divided between adults. Amusement park tickets each family is responsible for their own as are meals out. People understand the math but don’t agree with you!

NTA, families with kids should pay more.

The question is what does your wife want? It's her family.

NTA if she agrees.

NTA of course they understand, thats why those two familys insisted on all the adults cover the costs for the kids, and they only brought it up at the last minute to rush it through without everyone having proper time to discuss it, and making sure it was too late for anyone to back out of the holiday, they are hoping no-one will want to make a scene in case it make the vacation awkward - thats why all the other members of the family are pretending not to understand what you are telling them, you are not going mad you are being gasslighted (I think you call it)

NTA Even kids get enjoyment from a boat ride. Hell, we were thrilled at taking a ferry (didn’t live near water).

But, since you are already well into the dispute, why not “compromise” this time and do it like a buffet? Kids under 2 are free, they will likely get little benefit. Kids 2-11 at a reduced rate like 50%. Anyone 12 and up full price.

ESH but maybe you more, based on the comment that the rental cost includes food and drinks. While kids should not be free, given the age of the kids, they should definitely be cheaper (which is typically the way it works when you book individual tickets for these). If it were boat only, I’d say split between everyone that’s not an infant.

Given it includes drinks (and assuming adult drinks which are more expensive), it’s unfair to ask kids to pay equally

But why would you want to die on this hill and sour the mood before a vacation with these people when you’ve said you can afford it?

I definitely think there should be some cost for kids (I didn’t see their ages), but not equal and not sure this is worth dying on

NTA - Get the count, divide the cost by the count, multiply that amount by the number in your family and pay that amount. Don’t pay any more than your share; let the rest pay their share or divide the rest by the number of adults and then pay that amount (your amount will already be just for the number of people in your immediate household). If they act like spoiled brats then just cancel it completely or take you and yours out of the equation by not going on the boat… then they can figure the rest out on their own.

Make sure you are not putting your credit card down for any of the activities because you will definitely not get reimbursed by the family. Do your own math for the number of people in your party and pay only that amount (to whoever put up the money for the activity). Pay for your family separately if you can.  

You'll have people mad at you but it's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not. Now you know to get these details sorted out in the beginning, or at the very least, you state YOUR intentions at the beginning of the planning process.

My opinion is that you're a little bit justified AH only because it's close to the trip but you're not wrong. 

Why are you going? I don't care if it's family, I wouldn't want to subsidize a relatives holiday when I could take a separate one on my own terms

I would go on an excursion with my spouse only and let them do their thing. Fam vacations doesn't mean connected at the hip.

NTA

Yea it just so happens that the people who would benefit the most are making the argument against the reasonable division of expenses, sounds like you've got 2 families of trouble makers and 3.5 who just want to avoid conflict.

If you've explained it multiple times it's unlikely that you can "make them understand" they either understand and are playing dumb to get their way hoping that the rest of the groups' desire to avoid conflict and let them have their way is stronger then your ability to convince the group to do the fair thing or they really are that dumb and you will never convince them in time.

The real question you need to ask yourself is: Is being right and fair worth the troublemakers being bitter and the rest of the group being annoyed that you forced conflict over this issue.

You might just want to take the L on this issue try to enjoy the vacation as best you can and never involve the trouble makers in activities like this again, without hashing out the expense division before finalizing all the bookings and maybe going as far as writing up a simple contract.

Tell them you will only pay for the heads in your family point blank

NTA- Oh, they understand. They just think you should be happy to pay for their kids. The nicest explanation I can come up with is decent parents are so in the habit of sacrificing for their kids that they forget it's not everyone's default obligation. This seems to fall down on this one as the other parents are happy to 'over tax' the single parents. How about setting an 'adult rate' and a lower 'kid rate' and splitting it up like that, as it would be similar to tickets to an attraction with lower kid prices? Look at a few attractions, get the ratio of adult price to kid- say adult is 3/3 & kid is 2/3, divide the cost up that way? That is still slightly unfair on the childfree adults, in a way, but a decent compromise for the people with fewer kids per adult.

You can't win. They have it set up to benefit those families, and they don't seem to want to change. Your only options are to suck it up, take, pay extra, and be resentful, or don't go. I wouldn't.

NTA - They are right though, the kids shouldn't pay. Their parents should be paying.

Don't argue. Simpley do the math, and then tell them that is what you will be paying. You will pay for YOUR portion, and nothing else.

They don't have to agree with you, you don't have to win an argument, or make them understand. You simply tell them what you will be paying, have the math to back it up, and that is it.

NTA