www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-06-25/restaurants-charge-service-fees-an-emergency-measure-passes-unanimously
Lawmakers' last-minute reversal could let restaurants keep service fees
NewsGee what could possibly have happened to make this politician reverse himself out of no where
A gratuity from the restaurant lobby, since SCOTUS said those are perfectly legal way to bribe people now.
I thought that court case was about people who no longer worked for state/local governments?
iirc it boiled down to being ok to receive gifts or gratuities after the conflict has passed. So long as they aren't offered before the contracts are decided.
Here's a restaurant lobbyist saying it's actually the big corporations who want the fees to be gone, and the little guy needs these fees to survive. Apparently deceit is crucial to the restaurant business.
That's super disingenuous. He's arguing about the autograt for large parties. Yes, this law gets rid of that, but it's really about the "Pay 20% more for our worker's insurance that we're afraid to bake into our prices."
If an employer can't afford to pay a decent wage with job security, they should not be in business.
If you need to raise prices, fine. But you better make sure that the quality and service is there for the increased prices.
Restauranteurs do not have a right to stay in business through deceitful practices.
wtf I love big corporations now
"they're people out there with chainsaws you're cuffin' me!!"
They’ll call it the Dodd fee
Dodd originally wrote and passed a bill that he thought would only have required restaurants to disclose fees, basically by listing them on menus. Then Atty Gen Bonta told the legislature in Feb. that, actually, the bill means that restaurants have to roll the fees into their prices (which is great for consumers) and Dodd freaked out at the possibility of pissing off the Restaurant Assn and here we are - "clarifying" an accidentally great bill into a much shittier one.
I hope Dodd loses the next election
User deleted comment
5d
no they aren’t. even Scott Weiner cosponsored this bill.
Not everyone who votes in a manner that you disagree with some fraction of the time is a MAGA simp.
Joe mansion holding that seat in West Virginia was like the most consequential election of the past six years other than the presidential election. Whatever he needed to do or say to keep it was 100% justified.
So just to clarify here, SB 478 requires that any service or products sold in California must advertise the total price, including any required fees (so think Ticketmaster, airlines with all their surcharges, etc.)
The carve out for restaurants, SB 1524, simply says that restaurants can list fees and surcharges separately from the menu price, as long as those fees are clearly stated on the same menu, and starting in 2025, additional language goes into effect that the font the fees are written in has to be clear and the same size as the rest of the menu (so, not in tiny print).
The Tl;DR for consumers is simply that when dining in restaurants, you'll have to take the additional step of calculating the total cost including the fees, rather than the restaurant rolling it up into a single number. It's one extra step for consumers, but hardly the massive deception that some people are losing their shit over. (not you OP, but r/sanfrancisco is freaking out and I really can't figure out why.
Because junk fees are ridiculous.
If you want to reply to this message, that will be $1.
Tip to me is a mandatory up charge in the amount of 20%.
Then I’ll accept another healthcare payment + cost of living fee in the amount of 17%.
It's not a "junk fee." It's simply the COGS broken out of the total so you see it, instead of hiding it in the total. It's not the restaurants' fault if you can't math. And dining out is a privilege, not a right.
hiding it in the total
lol. Hiding the total cost of the item in the total cost of the item.
If you're buying a pair of jeans, you don't need to see a lower price on the shelf and then show a "cost to make jeans fee" added at the register.
And dining out is a privilege, not a right.
Non sequitur. Every business has regulations, and consumers have a right to protection from deceptive practices.
Again, it's not deceptive if the fees are clearly printed. Where's the deception?
It's called Partitioned Pricing and there's been a lot of research on this topic. Multiple studies show that consumers largely ignore additional fees, even when clearly marked, in their decision-making process on whether to buy or not.
It's psychological deception in the way that most people process information, and their intent to purchase. Which is why corporations love junk fees. This is is why your $99 concert ticket price, even when fees are clearly marked, becomes $200 at the checkout. But in your mind, it only costs $99 and you've already committed to buy. Your brain doesn't want to do the math in real time. Now add the complexity that every restaurant will have a different fee, again, even if clearly marked, will not be factored in to the decision to purchase. This is the deception.
Pay the fees.
Many restaurateurs told the L.A. Times that rolling surcharge fees into menu pricing would cost them customers due to sticker shock at an already fraught time for the industry.
If customers will choose not to buy your product if they know the price, tht doesn’t mean you get to trick them instead.
I feel like fixing this problem is the whole point of the law; as it is, it makes sense that restaurants feel the need to use service charges, because if they don’t and the restaurant next door does, people will go next door because it appears they are cheaper.
It is a prisoner’s dilemma, where no restaurant can ‘defect’ and not use fees as long as anyone else does.
But if we outlaw them, every restaurant is in the same boat and customers won’t have any reason to choose one restaurant over another. Every restaurant is on even footing.
Now they are saying customers just won’t eat at restaurants if they knew how much it was? Well then too bad, that means the demand is less than you thought. Guess we just have fewer restaurants.
Yeah the logic doesn't hold up. It doesn't even feel sincere. Like the whole industry collapse because you now have to be honest? Lol okay. If everyone is on a level playing field then it's actually a win win
The whole concept of "sticker shock" is not realizing how much your final bill was going to be. Which happens every time you go out under the current bait and switch system. The result at least for me being - I get burned by unexpected charges - that place has lost my business going forward. If I can get a rough idea of how much I'm up for by checking an online menu prior to going out, I can make informed ordering choices, don't feel stressed when I get the final check and I'm more likely to go there again.
There's no deception here - restaurants still have to list any fees on the menu. It's just not rolled into a total.
Which to me is a deceptive practice
Otherwise the restaurants would be fine removing these surcharges. The restaurant lobby is openly admitting that people will get sticker shock if they see the all-in price on menus, but that people will continue to buy from them if the final price isn’t calculated until the bill arrives.
Ok, if this is the case, then why would anyone get sticker shock and cost the restaurants customers?
Either the current system is completely transparent, in which case restaurants wouldn’t be hurt by this law, or customers are being deceived, in which case we need this law.
God damn it.
Holy shit: "unanimously approved by the state Assembly on Tuesday." The entire Assembly voted to strike down the first bill. I guess we know who really runs the politicians in CA.
I think Yelp and Google should have an extra icon next to $$$ where people can report restaurants with these fees so we can be warned.
Then no tip for them then.
I’ll write it clearly on the receipt too. “20% tip - 18% bullshit fee = 2% tip”.
Sucks for the waitstaff, but the alternative is that we don’t eat there at all which is even worse for them. They can complain to management.
the alternative is that we don’t eat there at all which is even worse for them
If your point is to try to get restaurants to not have the fees, than not going is the only way to send a message to the restaurant owners. Going and not tipping is totally fine to the owners. They don’t care if you tip, only that you go.
If you don’t like it, you shouldn’t go to the restaurant.
That strategy only works if there are alternative restaurants that aren’t charging these fees… and there aren’t. They’re pretty much all doing it now.
And I’m not going to stop eating out. That’s literally one of our favorite things to do, and one of the major reasons we love living where we do.
I eat out quite a bit, and never eat at restaurants with these fees. There are tons. Eat at and support them instead.
There are tons of cheap restaurants that don't charge fees, sure. And I do eat at and support those too. The same cannot be said about medium and higher end places.
But I'm not going to avoid the medium and higher end places just because all of them are charging these fees. Because again, this a major area of interest for us. It's something we like to do.
There are plenty of mid and high end restaurants that don’t charge the fees. You just have to leave LA proper. Damon’s in Glendale has an excellent steak and amazing cocktails and they don’t have to charge silly ass fees. You can get an amazing brunch at Cafe de Olla in Burbank without silly fees. You can get incredible sushi and Asian cuisine all over the SGV without added small print fees. You just can’t do it in LA.
That’s all well and good… but I live in the middle of LA, and I like it here. We do go check out well reviewed places that are further away from time to time, particularly if we have to be around that area for some other reason, but that’s not going to be a usual thing. No one wants to drive 90 minutes away for dinner… we stick to 10-30 minutes usually. And a lot of time we try to walk if it’s feasible.
No, there are tons of restaurants of all price ranges that don’t charge these fees. Sorry you’re so stubborn you can’t seem to grasp what other people who live here are trying to tell you to help you out with the problem you’re complaining about. These options exist all over in and around LA. At this point you’re choosing to go to places that bone you. Step outside your bubble and listen to others who live here.
No, there are tons of restaurants of all price ranges that don’t charge these fees.
No. There isn’t. It’s a rampant issue.
Sorry you’re so stubborn you can’t seem to grasp what other people who live here are trying to tell you to help you out with the problem you’re complaining about.
I’m not saying this because I’m stubborn, I’m saying it because it’s the fucking truth.
These options exist all over in and around LA. At this point you’re choosing to go to places that bone you. Step outside your bubble and listen to others who live here.
Neat. I live here. I’m choosing to go to good places in my fucking area. What you call a bubble is like a 30 minute drive range, which is quite fucking large… but yeah, it doesn’t cover the entirely of LA county… but I’m not going to regularly drive 90 minutes to go to dinner. That doesn’t make any sense.
Nice restaurants in my part of town absolutely do charge these fees. All of them. Congrats if they don’t where you live.
You need to expand your horizons if you think every restaurant is charging service fees.
Ok. Let me rephrase that… pretty much all restaurants that aren’t on the cheap side are charging fees. Which is accurate.
And I do eat at cheap restaurants too. We eat pretty much everything… and we cook at home too. Food is our passion.
But we’re not going to stop going to medium and higher end restaurants just because the cheap restaurants aren’t charging fees.
I totally get you. I am a huge food lover too. Both cooking and eating out. But not leaving a tip only punishes the server, not the restaurant. The restaurant is still making money because you're buying drinks and food. By not tipping, you're causing a hardship on the server.
Personally, I don't know what to do about it. We have stopped going out as often because dining out is so expensive these days, even at "cheaper" places, but we still tip as per usual. Rolling the fees into the cost of the menu prices seems like a logical thing to me, so I don't really understand why restaurants starting charging these extra fees. Are they pocketing the money? Is it going to employees? Is it helping to pay expenses or simply additional revenue? To me, it really boils down to how the extra money they're now bringing in is allocated. I don't mind paying it if the funds are used to pay for healthcare or benefits or something for the staff. I would be upset to learn that it simply goes into the owner's pocket and doesn't actually help the kitchen staff and service staff.
But it’s not me who’s punishing the server, it’s their employer, who is actually the one responsible for paying them for their work.
This is just the end game of how our stupid tipping culture has ended up. Tips aren’t actually tips when they’re expected.
Well then, to me it sounds like you want to be able to eat out without paying the actual price it would take to eat at a restaurant… the full price for everything (food, labor paid at a fair wage and benefits, and enough profit to make the business viable for the owner) is the price + service fee + tip.
Ideally, that price would all be included in the menu prices. However, even if it was included in the menu price, it would still be the same price you are paying currently with menu price + service fee + tip, just explicitly listed. You wouldn’t save any money if service fees were removed, it would just be moved into the list price.
Your decision to cut out the tip isn’t going to bring about change, it will just screw over the labor part of the cost… which is what owners always want to do, anyway. You are helping owners screw over their employees, while giving them cover for taking the blame (it isn’t my fault the customer didn’t tip!)
Well then, to me it sounds like you want to be able to eat out without paying the actual price it would take to eat at a restaurant… the full price for everything (food, labor paid at a fair wage and benefits, and enough profit to make the business viable for the owner) is the price + service fee + tip.
Completely untrue. That's the entire reason we wanted this legislation to affect restaurants as well. Because we want to pay the full price without the deception.
Ideally, that price would all be included in the menu prices. However, even if it was included in the menu price, it would still be the same price you are paying currently with menu price + service fee + tip, just explicitly listed. You wouldn’t save any money if service fees were removed, it would just be moved into the list price.
I'm not looking to save money. I'm looking to not be deceived with false advertising.
Your decision to cut out the tip isn’t going to bring about change, it will just screw over the labor part of the cost… which is what owners always want to do, anyway. You are helping owners screw over their employees, while giving them cover for taking the blame (it isn’t my fault the customer didn’t tip!)
Nah. I write it very clearly on the bill, with the math and everything. It is absolutely the owners fault that I'm not tipping. The waitstaff can take it up with their boss, it won't be my problem.
"Ideally, that price would all be included in the menu prices. However, even if it was included in the menu price, it would still be the same price you are paying currently with menu price + service fee + tip, just explicitly listed. You wouldn’t save any money if service fees were removed, it would just be moved into the list price."
Oh my God THANK YOU. I wasted the last day trying to explain this to another sub.
Literally everyone already know this, and WANTS this. You didn’t need to explain this anyone.
It’s not about saving money. It’s about putting a stop to deceptive practices.
Again - it's not deceptive if the fees are published on the menu.
Again, yes it is.
HOW??
Wouldn’t the result be the workers go work somewhere else where they can get proper tips? The restaurant would have a difficult time staffing and either change their behavior or be forced to close and make room for new restaurants that won’t use service fees. That seems like an ideal outcome, no?
"I want to send a message, but only if it doesn't inconvenience me."
You say this as if you don't do the same shit every fucking day in the choices you make. We all make the decisions we do based on how convenient it is for us.
Also... this isn't even about convenience. Eating at restaurants isn't more convenient than eating at home. My wife and I know how to cook, and the vast majority of our meals are home cooked. Eating out is just a passion of ours.
Yes we do make those choices but don't pretend like writing on the receipt and shorting the wait staff is some kind of protest.
I’m not shorting the waitstaff. Their bosses are.
The fact that you’re trying to shift blame onto the customer for the employers inability to properly compensate the staff is bullshit. In no other industry does it work this way. If my car mechanic isn’t paying his workers well enough, that’s not my fucking fault.
"I’m not shorting the waitstaff. Their bosses are"
you're full of shit and you know it. you're cheap. part of getting served is tipping. if you can't afford it, stay at home chad
you're full of shit and you know it.
No. Im absolutely fucking not.
you're cheap.
Dude I eat at expensive ass restaurants on a weekly basis. The most expensive meal I’ve eaten with my wife was 4 figures. I ain’t fucking cheap at all.
part of getting served is tipping.
Part of doing your job is getting paid for it.
Tips should not be expected. When you create a standard where it’s expected it’s no longer a tip.
if you can't afford it, stay at home chad
I can afford it, which is exactly why I do eat out so often.
I don't get why people tio 20% it's 15% unless something is extra special or something. It's a percentage, it doesn't need to inflate.
It hasn’t been 15% since I was a kid. Don’t get me wrong, I wish it was zero and they just got paid adequately from their employers… but 20% has been the norm for a while now.
Percentages don't inflate!
I didn’t inflate them, I was just following society!
it's always been 15% just because people complained and wanted more doesn't mean it's changed. The norm is still 15% even if you normally give 20%.
No it absolutely hasn’t always been 15%. It was 10% before I was born. I remember my parents complaining about it going up to 15% when I was a little kid.
And no, it’s not 15% today. Again, I’ve literally asked everyone in my office, tons of friends, family, etc… they all say it hasn’t been 15% in years. The norm is 20% now.
Now this is strange - everyone I know tips 15%, and I've never even heard of 20% being the norm. Additionally, when I worked service last year, 15% was the standard tip; I probably got 20% less than 5% of the time.
I just asked a bunch of people at my office, and some friends. They all agree it’s been 20% for a long time.
Lol where were they when I was a waiter??
Yeah I dunno. It was definitely still 15% back when I was a waiter… but that was like 2002 lol
Sounds like it would be embarrassing to go out to eat with you.
Because I’m a reasonable person who doesn’t want to put up with deceptive bullshit?
Nah.
“Hold on guys, I have to write my pithy note on the receipt the owners likely won’t even see.”
That’ll show em.
It takes literally 5 seconds to write this. It’s not that big of a deal.
If it wasn’t a big deal why bother unless you want to give the server a hard time about a process they have no control over.
Way to show them.
If it wasn’t a big deal
Writing it out isn’t a big deal. The fee is a big deal.
why bother unless you want to give the server a hard time about a process they have no control over.
That note isn’t for the server. It’s for management.
Way to show them.
Get over yourself.
If this shit goes through it's going to be infuriating and I'm going to stop tipping. Like full stop
Our government is feckless and corrupt.
Someone in the Bay Area started a Notion site to keep track of restaurants that have hidden fees, super helpful.
Doing the lords work right there.
Apparently thanks to these guys: https://www.instagram.com/fedesignandconsulting/. They're (claiming to be) the ones behind the reversal.
I've made it a habit now, anytime any restaurant charges any "service fee" I automatically tip $0.
Just the other day, I looked at a potential delivery order that charged the:
food price
Delivery Fee
Service Fee
Employee Benefit Fee
Sales Tax
Tip
Ridiculous.
Was the delivery order directly from the restaurant, or an app like DoorDash? Because if you’re looking to avoid fees, delivery apps are not what you should be using lol
Contact your assembly member!! Put them on blast. I contacted mine immediately after hearing this.
Possible silver lining: It allows me to see the restaurant's true colors and personally blacklist those with their separate BS fees who are too stupid to bake it into their menu prices.
Why does everyone/thing just suck now?
I just went to The Woodman in Sherman Oaks. They had a 3% service fee with nothing written about it on the menu, website, or anywhere else.
The weird thing was I went last week on the same day too and there was no service charge.
It was bizarre. And when I asked the waitress, she gave me an obviously pre-rehearsed line meant to make me feel sympathy and feel bad for getting it removed about “this is to adjust for inflation and for us to be able to afford to live” and yadda yadda then said “would you like to speak to my manager about it” knowing most people aren’t looking to get into a whole thing about it. The whole thing felt super manipulative and off-putting and obviously calculated.
I hadn’t been there since around when they first opened years ago. But saw they had wing night specials on Wednesdays.
So I randomly went last week and enjoyed myself. No service charge tipped like 30% or so.
So I went back last night and it was crazy how much worse an experience it was in every way, one week later.
The wings were half the size and overcooked and just terrible this time. They were excellent the week before and double the size and perfectly done.
And this week the service charge came out of nowhere and it was just a legit terrible experience. A martini was like 25% more than it was indicated to me by the waitress it would be. As well.
This time I tipped 15% plus the 3% service charge. So about 10-12 percentage points less. And I honestly am likely never going back. The whole thing with the 3% service charge this week that wasn’t there the week before, in addition to the food being 10x worse this week, really put me off the place. And the waitresses guilt trip and manipulative bullshit was the thing that put it over the top.
I really feel like these random service charges end up making these places less money. Including the service charge numbers in the calculations, I probably tip at least 10 percentage points more, at least when I go to a place without one of these charges, and when I do get one I almost never go back.
It’s not even about the actual money, the charge was a buck (lol). It’s just the principle and grossness and it feels like I’m being treated like a child.
Also, why tf was there no service charge last week, but now a few days before the law change a service charge appears out of the blue?!?! And the wings go from being perfect huge wings to whatever wing remnants were left. I get it’s the end of the month, but still…
I feel no sympathy for all these restaurants going under. So many of them are run this way and that’s the real reason they’re closing. Because of experiences like last night caused by greedy rich idiots who don’t know how to properly run their business
"I just went to The Woodman in Sherman Oaks. They had a 3% service fee with nothing written about it on the menu, website, or anywhere else."
Now THAT would be illegal under SB 1524. They cannot surprise you with a fee after the fact- it has to be clearly indicated on the menu when you order. I would have fought that and asked where it was stated.
I wasn’t looking to get into a whole thing over a buck after a long day.
Yeah understandable.
it has to be clearly indicated on the menu when you order
True, but lets be honest... a lot of people are still going to learn about it from their bill.
yeah it would be on or after july 1. but they can do this until...next monday.
Went to Jon and Vinny’s on Fairfax a couple of years ago. I don’t recall the service fee being listed on the menu, but the wait staff told us multiple times throughout our dining experience that they would appreciate us leaving them a 20% tip on top of a 20% service fee that would appear on the bill. This was the first time we’d ever heard of a huge service fee at a restaurant, so between the constant reminders and the absurdity of the restaurant to charge extra for the small portions and bland tasting food, we will never go there again, and also won’t support any other restaurant that charges service fees. Too bad this senate bill was changed at the last minute.
Restaurants can choose a service fee on their bill, or we can tip the staff, their choice.
Owner: "Sounds good to me!"
It's a second order effect, but the staff will move with their feet.
Pathetic!
✨ lobbying works ✨
The masses are dumb and that’s because we don’t want to look dumb . The .99 price on everything in the super market proves it. Toilet paper math is another example of how companies use “math” to get customers to buy. You’ll hear someone say that $10 burger was great and cheap even though it ended up costing like $18 after fees, tips, taxes, add ons etc etc. if restaurants added the full price of a meal and include tips, then they’ll go broke, even though nothing changed really in the price.
if restaurants added the full price of a meal and include tips, then they’ll go broke, even though nothing changed really in the price.
This is how restaurants work in most other countries. So, if all the restaurants here did it then people would get used to it and quickly realize the final bill is the same.
if restaurants added the full price of a meal and include tips, then they’ll go broke
Then...they should go broke.
If their business model only works by deceiving and guilting the customer, then they should not be in business.
The whole fucking point is that restaurants are the worst offenders of junk fees! What does this law do if it doesn't stop them???
The other big ones are: Hotel "resort fees", Airline "airport fees", Event ticket "delivery fees" for sending you an email.
Call the governor's office and your representatives to let them know you oppose exempting restaurants from the junk fee ban.
Boooo! We don’t need sneaky fees. 20% is plenty.
Bet.. no tip for you
All these corporatist fucks are bought and paid for. The only things politicians will listen to are money and violence.
Maybe it’s time we stop tipping
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s/could/would/
Amazing to me all the comments that amount to:
"Tip nothing! Punish servers! That's the solution! Fuck the servers because owners and corporations add extra fees! That'll teach the restaurant owners! All we have to do is punish people who do not profit or benefit in any way from these stupid fees, and who help us have a nice dinner out! Let's make sure they suffer!"
Way to go, gang. That'll solve the problem for sure. /s
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The idea of punishing the server for the restaurants fees is wild to me.
What I do is I walk in or call the restaurant. I ask the host if there are any extra fees besides taxes on the bill. If they say yes. I leave and don’t go to that restaurant.
Don’t give the owner money and then stif the poor server. Just don’t give the owner anything.
Y'all.
This shit is likely to go nowhere.
This is going to require a ballot initiative.
I know this won’t be a popular take on the sub, but if this bill doesn’t pass, it will cost consumers more.
Restaurateurs will charge what they need to charge to stay profitable. One of the things that these service charges (like the 4% Healthy LA charge) do is help with tax liability as they are taxed differently than normal revenue. If this bill doesn’t pass, restaurants will need to charge 2-3% more than they would without it to offset the tax liability.
So July 1st, you’ll probably see a 8-10% increase in prices across the board to make up the difference and to hedge against future increases in food and labor costs (minimum wage is going up on July 1 as well.)
So essentially not passing this bill will cause tax revenue to go up, at the expense of consumers.
It’s not actually taxed differently. It all goes into the same receivables account. The only thing that is handled differently is CC tips. Those are payroll taxed and not revenue taxed.
That is just complete and utter horseshit.
4 missing replies
Sens. Bill Dodd (D-Napa) and Nancy Skinner (D-Berkeley) co-wrote SB 478 in what they called an effort to protect consumers from surprise fees. In early June Dodd proposed Senate Bill 1524, a new emergency measure that would clarify aspects of his original bill and, if passed, exempt restaurants from eliminating surcharges, provided they are listed clearly.