Yeah that’s what I was thinking it must be too - I just can’t fathom the operational cost would be less than pumping out thin reams of paper bags, even if they didn’t want to import the aluminum (which isn’t so complicated that there wouldn’t be local production anyway)

He give “all the fuck in the world” Mook voice.

I know clay is just dirt - but those pots seem like they’d be an ineffective business model to keep handing out - doubly so when he’s using a presumably cheaper container as a top for them

Whatever Joe Williams ate earlier

This is great, and I mostly agree, but I still think it’s Shanks extreme diffing. As much as Kaido may be portrayed as “the strongest” there’s also plenty reason to believe otherwise:

• he stalemates BM in a parallel to Akainu v Aokiji (which suggests he at least shares the strongest title)
• Shanks talks him down from going to Marineford (which he would only accept if he felt Shanks could defeat him as well)
• he himself genuinely believed Oldbeard would kill him (which scales him below Garp and anyone else above their old versions)

Based on what we’ve seen there’s quite a few named characters that should be able to beat him - far too many to believe that not one would succeed.

This isn’t even getting into the scaling outliers like the Gorosei, Figarland, Ancient Weapons, Imu, etc. or anyone who might win with fruit hax like BB (though for the record I firmly doubt BB would win - I’ve heard people argue his growth comparison to Luffy meaning he could awaken a giant version of his darkness portal and expand its range proportionately).

I’ve got Tobirama by leaps and bounds. Itachi’s alive showing is nothing compared to Senju scaling. Even a theoretical prime Itachi based on Edo scaling would be overwhelmed.

Speed, power output, chakra, it’d all be too much. Especially in the hands of someone who has spent his entire life fighting Uchihas. He’s laughing at Amaterasu, he’s never getting caught in Tsukiyomi, and he can casually avoid the Spirit weapons.

The problem here is that not only does Tobirama outscale him stat wise (which he could easily make up with Mangekyo in most cases), he also hard counters all his hax. - Itachis fast with hand signs - but he’s faster. - Itachi has body flicker - Tobirama has better body flicker and teleportation - Itachi has Sharingan abilities - Tobirama has an anti-sharingan kit - Itachi has godlike Genjutsu - Tobirama can fight blind

Usually the benefit of a Prime Itachi is his additional chakra stores; but in this fight it’s still abysmal by comparison. All of his necessary techniques are taxing, and his eyes would still be going blind (meaning the fight is on a timer even if he can provide the chakra and suffer through prolonged Sussano usage ).

They’re not equal at all by the War Arc, but if you mean throughout Shipouden - I’d say yes but only during Shippiden:

During any point prior to the series, the Leaf stomped.

• For the majority of the Third Raikage’s reign the Leaf’s roster included Hiruzen, the Sannin, White Fang, Danzo, Dan etc. While the Cloud only had Ay3 and Ay4.
• Towards the end of his run they add Bee; while the Leaf trades Tsunade/Sakumo/Dan for Minato/Fugaku/Kushina
• During the 4ths reign the Leaf loses Orochimaru, but the Cloud loses Ay3.

It isn’t until the start of the series where they kind of even out - since the Leaf loses Minato, Kushina, Fugaku, Itachi and Shisui - while the Cloud adds Yugito

Then Hiruzen downgrades to Tsunade/Danzo and makes the Leaf lose a Cloud Kage battle for the first time ever, plus they have no answer for Bee. At this point the Leaf is pretty much carried by Guy’s suicide - and it stays like that throughout Shippuden. - Their Chunnin are comparable - Darui matches Kakashi - they’ve got elite Jonin who seem on par with the others (though I’d argue the Leaf has more in numbers there with Hiashi, Yamato, InoShikaCho, etc.) - the Cloud loses Yugito; but Yamato being free from fighting her doesn’t help since he’s not strong enough to suppress Bee

In the War Arc though - it’s Leaf supremacy by far. - Tsunade bridges the gap between her and the Raikage - Kakashi zooms past Darui by leaps and bounds - Naruto literally zooms past Ay, and grows exponentially stronger after doing so - the rookies have a much better showing than the chunnin from other villages (though in fairness this is just MC bias) - Bee kind of stalls out and keeps jobbing while Naruto continues to get strong enough to literally fuel the entire war (before he just turns into Jesus and gains the power to fly, heal, fight what’s not there, and blow up the moon)

I mostly agree, but the Mist had a great showing. The Sand was consistently portrayed to be weak in resources and manpower, and the Stone is non-existent throughout the series (but also portrayed to be a bit weaker even in the war arc). But the Mist started Pt.1 with a bang.

• We knew they had the 7 Swordsmen who were second only to the Mizukage
• We knew they produced Zabuza (and by extension the techniques Haku used)
• We knew they had the “Bloody Mist” reputation,, and we also knew they slaughtered Kimimaros entire clan

Then in Pt 2 while the Sound/Stone were largely forgotten;

• we find they had 2 tailed beasts during the 3rd war, and used one as a bomb in Kakashis backstory
• we find out they have the only other Perfect Jinchuriki
• we find out about the Hozuki brothers
• we meet Gengetsu in the War arc
• Mei, while not as capable as her peers - introduces two new powerful KG
• Ao has a pretty cool fight, shows wisdom at the summit, and reveals he both survived Shisui and killed a Hyuuga
• Chojuro fills the “young prodigy” slot amongst the Kage 2nds (and likely beats all of them besides Darui)
• they even get a full line-up of the strongest of the Seven Swordsmen during the war arc (way more attention than the stone or sand in terms of named characters, thoughtful design, and individual skillset).

They still had Ao - who should at least have been on par with Kakashi up until he starts spamming DMS

I’d say she should be able to, though so should any puppet master or edo user

Ah I see, in that case Rd 3 has a bit of hope with a few wild cards. Getting rid of Luffy leaves room for some theoretical characters like the OG Joyboy/Imu I guess. There’s also Prime Rayleigh who I didn’t mention before, and maybe another Lunarian. The problem is none of them have any scaling in the series.

Shiki scaling is terrible, but I guess he should be able to do something. That’s why I didn’t include the Gorosei - because their showing on Egghead puts them below Yonko IMO. Most of their stats (speed, reflexes, strength, durability) besides fruit hax seem to fall between YC+ and Yonko; with their main schtick being immortality (kind of like King where higher tier fighters still can’t hurt him for a while).

I’d be curious to know if the ancient weapons could sway things here. What if Crybaby-hoshi solos the verse with an army of Sea monsters (as the world sinks further into her kingdom)?

Rd 1:

It’s possible - but only thanks to some very creative scaling (which is fine because the challengers are majority featless).

• Luffy wins any battle he fights. Prime Garp too. 2-0

• IF we scale Sengoku to Garp then that’s another guaranteed victory 3-0

• IF we scale Mihawk to Shanks then they tie. And if we edge him above Shanks due to his title he might extreme diff. 3-0-1 or 4-0

Kaido/BM are incredibly strong and low/mid-diff Oden. If we scale Dragon to them he could do it too. Likely the same for BB who should be below them. 5-0 (or 4-0-1)

This is all direct scaling - to say nothing of any tactical advantages Like - while I don’t think he belongs in these tiers of fighters - Laws fruit had could be a game changer that lets him fight up in a single fight and assist heavily in a battle royale. BM’s Soul fruit could help regenerate her stores while chipping away at an opponent - and in a battle royale she could even heal teammates. Even by herself, she could turn fallen opponents into weapons and keep getting stronger as she runs a gauntlet until reaching a level to compare to the stronger challengers

Rd 2:

No chance whatsoever. Though I’d love to believe BM survived her cheap loss - until further notice she and Kaido are dead. Metaphorically “Prime Garp” is “dead” as well - which takes out most of their force. Swapping them in for older counterparts/weaker characters is a death sentence here: G5 can’t carry that much

Rd 3:

This is worse because while we get Kaido/BM back - we trade them for Luffy and still lose the prime elders.

True in a sense - though that doesn’t actually help much when his whole function in the fight is to assist Hiruzen who’d still be vulnerable. Like that cage he put up against Orochimaru is full of holes that would let acid/gas through.

I do fully believe Hiruzen could kill Mei with little difficulty though - and I don’t think he needs Enma to do it.

Assuming it was, they’re ninja. Sneak attacks, ambushes, etc are a part of the gig. You say “non-combat” setting as if they’re fighting in a ring - but if I’m a hunter/tracker/root/anbu you’re in a combat setting as soon as my mission starts. Any advantage I gain is a measure of my skill vs yours

• we’ve seen cases where an “ambush/surprise attack” involves walking into a genjutsu trap for instance. And it negates a strength difference, but tests the persons ability to recognize the trap and disrupt the genjutsu (Shikamaru and Sakura were specifically praised for this in Pt.1).

Someone sneaking up on a character is a measure of their stealth v the opponents perception/awareness. The fact that Shisui could be snuck up on by these scaled fighters puts his sensory and reflexes a tier below the people he’s commonly compared t

Likewise - poisoning is a measure of the users prowess vs their opponents durability/perception. (I.e. Tsunade was able to poison a vet like Jiraiya only because she herself was a master at making them undetectable; and Chiyo/Sakura were able to push through Sasoris poison because of their skill at concocting an antidote + Sakuras raw durability).

• If Shisui was really comparable to the Sannin/higher Kage - it should take someone of relatively similar skill to catch him off guard/handicap him in the first place. People compare him to Minato because of his body flicker title - but Minato was dodging point blank attacks from Obito, and even got out of Kamui. He gets compared to Itachi as a superior, but Itachi opened Susanno faster than lightning while 30 seconds away from death; and kept pace with fighters who speed blitz the Sannin.

If he were more perceptive he could have predicted the ambush, and with quicker movement (like Tobirama or Minato) he could have dodged any attempt. If his defenses were strong enough to avoid being poisoned (like Gaara’s sand), or his resistance strong enough to mitigate its effects (like Oro) it wouldn’t have mattered regardless of whether he could get tagged or not. I don’t see Danzo’s strategy succeeding against any of the fighters I mentioned

TLDR; OPs question was never about who was stronger, it was who would win in battle. While Shisui theoretically outscales root members (and Danzo) - the fact is they did what they were supposed to do in the ninja world. He was presented with a challenge that he could not Cheapening the victory by saying he got snuck negates everything PT.1 was about.

More to the point - the bottom line is that Shisui is not as strong/fast/perceptive/capable as people want him to be. He doesn’t even scale to the mid-tier Kage fighters

But being heavily poisoned just means he lost to a poison user. It doesn’t negate the win because Danzo’s side won.

It’s a ninja battle not a boxing match. If their strategy/teamwork allows them to land a fatal blow then it’s because they performed better than Shisui

This is not true. He specifically says he will unite them under his rule, before explaining that he will judge the world and deliver punishment moving forward. He didn’t want to perpetually fight with them either, since he assures Naruto he would be the last person he ever killed

I never thought about it that way - but you’re right.

I think instead of trust they probably just thought he had a lack of personal interest. Guy and Kurenai were invested; and Kakashi is traumatized/doesnt want to see anyone die - but most jonin wouldn’t be jumping in. Most of the teams’ captains aren’t even there, and Baki wasn’t jumping in for Gaara (nor was Orochimaru saving any of his fighters. It was expected for everyone to let it happen

They’d explained over and over that the exams could end in fatalities (one of the trails being called the “Forest of Death”), which was why Guy thought the rookies weren’t ready. Especially with Neji stopping mid-fight to warn Hinata and the others that he would kill her, and her taking him on anyway - it really wasn’t Hayate’s job to do anything there. Technically it was more his job to keep the others from interfering with a match she accepted several times. Sorry if I’m rambling a bit with the free writing- but I guess I just mean they had reason to believe he wouldn’t step in even if he could or wanted to

Hashirama/Prime Hiruzen

Minato

Tobirama

Hiruzen

Tsunade

The Hokage win this comfortably. Arguably with a clean sweep. I only picked the top 6 out of fairness so Tsunade got left out - but I think she’d lose any fight she could have had if you want to replace one of the six and give the win to the Uchiha

Obito v. Kakashi: They already fought and Kakashi won; though we later find Obito threw the fight. It nevertheless shows Kakashi can keep up with a serious Obito in speed/reflexes. Obito’s main power is nullified since Kakashi can use it as well. If you give Obito 6PSM then it’s only fair to give Kakashi DMS (which wins) - but then there’s also Hokage Kakashi who’s stated to have surpassed even that if you want to add the Jinchuriki 6 Paths of Obito or something. More often than not Kakashi wins this IMO

Itachi v Minato: I’ve argued this before but I’ve got Minato winning for various reasons. Mostly he effectively counters a lot of hax, and has more win conditions; though depending on a few things it could go the other way.

Fugaku v Hiruzen I’ve got Fugaku above Shisui. - Shisui is comparable/just above Itachi; who (at the time of the massacre) feared being unable to match his father - Shisui loses a 2v1 against a high level Hyuga member in the novels which puts them firmly below kage - Fugaku is chosen as the head of the clan, and considered alongside Minato and Orochimaru as contemporaries (putting him firmly above Kage level)

That said - Hiruzen is stated to have been above every Kage we see in the series, including Ay/Ohnoki who were at the time of his death. He should defeat Fugaku without much difficulty.

His WA arc showing puts his speed up there with the elites even in old age (which makes sense if he scales above Ay), and his prime is at least comparable to Tobirama if not above (since he was stated to surpass the Senjus and carried the “God” title). Even if you put Shisui over Fugaku, his speed isn’t relevant here. Also, Hiruzen proves plenty competent at fighting without eyesight (arguably better than Guy) so he can’t rely on MS hax even if he can keep from being blitzed. Again - Shisui’s portrayal scales him to elite root/low-mid Kage level (Ao skirmish, Hyuuga loss, handicapped Danzo loss, lack of EMS, etc)

TLDR; These battles aren’t by any means one-sided, and could sway in the opposite direction depending on how you interpret a few things; but Hashirama canonically beat Madara their entire lives, and Tobirama already killed Izuna. Naruto beats Sasuke - which means the Hokage only need one more win out of the remaining 3.

Koto would never land on Naruto since no one on this list can tag him besides Sasuke

It’s Minato.

Sasuke, Boruto, Oro, and Itachi all had prime tutelage (and with the exception of Oro, the best genetics in the village). By 14 Itachi spent his whole life training under Fugaku, Oro had spent most of his life under the top Kage of all time, Sasuke had spent years under Oro, Boruto trained under Naruto/Sasuke/and a Jiraiya clone. Yes they reached great heights but that much should be expected

The others reached Jonin level pretty much on their own (which is why Neji should be on this list). The White Fang died while Kakashi was still in the academy, and he cleared the Chunnin exams almost immediately after that so he did it all without Minato. Even later he reveals Chidori as a surprise, which suggest Minato didn’t actually train with him beyond the basics (like Jiraiya and Naruto during Pt.1).

Shisui doesn’t seem to have gotten along with the rest of his clan enough to have been training much with them - and his eye technique surpassed anyone who could have trained him. Theoretically Fugaku was the only other one who could read the Uchiha tablets. We don’t hear of him being under any major Jonin or anything even in supplemental materials so it looks like he just kind of learned everything and dominated until it was time to teach Itachi

But even both of those characters has some degree of genetic advantage. Minato was just a random outlier - no impressive parentage to speak of. We know he trains under Jiraiya - but mostly after Jiraiaya has already identified him as a child of prophecy. The Kushina rescue and other feats (like his academy graduation) all precede Jiraiya’s involvement (and specifically his scores scale him above Neji/Sasuke/Gaara whod all been stated Jonin level during the Chunin arc). Even with Jiraiya’s training - they mostly focused on a fighting style he doesn’t even use.

He created the rasengan - and then taught it to Jiraiya and Hiruzen

He mastered the Uzumaki sealing techniques - and then taught them to an Uzumaki, before teaching Jiraiya and Hiruzen

He mastered FTG which Jiraiya had no way of teaching and Hiruzen didn’t use

He has a wider array of mastery and skill with the least advantages. No chakra power ups, no crazy genetics/enhancements, no magical eyes - he just shows up and does what he wants

This used to be a sinking feeling similar to watching a clogged toilet spill over the brim. The knowledge that you fucked up paired with an exponential multiplier that keeps pinging like a hit combo getting worse and worse while you watch.

Bending on hands and knees to pick that shit up - and realizing only while closer, that it’s actually twice as much as you thought - and in 5 different parts of your carpet.

Getting excited about the joint you’ve saved with all your meticulous pruning - only to realize the pile you recovered is 70% lint, because 50% of the weed you dropped is stuck to your socks (and you still have to get it all off before washing unless you want all your work clothes to smell like ABV.

Luckily though I’ve grown older and more resourceful - I never have less than 2 oz’s on me so these days it’s just a funny pass of the vacuum

White Fang

You can if GeGe’s got anything to say about it

They lose without Yuji. Sukuna is able to replenish his CE with a black flash - so with no one chipping away at his soul, he’s going to gradually creep back towards his previous levels of power