Finally sat down for my first EDH game with my own deck…

Online edh players are going to inherently behave in saltier ways than they would in-person because they don’t have to deal with potential social consequences of being a manchild.  You act like that in an LGS and eventually no one will play with you except for the unexpecting new face that doesn’t know your history of crying over losing in a casual game.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much, but given you’re rocking the one ring, demonic tutor, and a worldgorger loop against a precon, there most likely was a big power imbalance.

None of that is necessarily taboo, but that were the power levels of the other decks?

The only info we have was that you were playing the one ring and worldgorger combo against a precon. While that deck is very strong in a vacuum, it's still just a precon.

The game has got to end, but I will say with those lines you COULD win very early in not a super difficult to find hand. If you are running tutors and combos, I wouldn’t be playing against precons lmao.

That Eldrazi precon is really only strong in a vacuum, your deck definitely sounds a notch or two more powerful.

Commander as a casual format has always been about expectations. 

Kaalia, the One Ring, and Worldgorger combo all have different expectations behind them, namely 

• Very powerful old school commander with some cheesy win lines

• Powerful card advantage engine that is emblematic of the push for “good cards sell packs” 

• Fast and easy to assemble 2-card wincon that has its heyday at high power and competitive tables

If your opponents sat down and expected a game that would be a battlecruiser slap fight until turn 15 using creature beats only, these all might feel a little unfair if their expectations weren’t tempered at the pre-game talk. 

Sure, magic is magic play it however you like, I don’t think you did anything particularly wrong, but that’s kinda just the truth of the matter, especially when playing with randos on spelltable

I mean you literally had combo, tutors, and top shelf card draw in just the half dozen cards you mentioned. Those few cards are worth 2-3 precons. Nothing wrong with that, but you might be bringing a gun to a knife fight.

Ok the Eldrazi precon is actually really strong out of the box. But almost no precon has a chance against an aggressive Kaalia deck. She can poop out absolute game enders on attack alone. You had a $90 draw engine card out that's actually almost equivalent to the entire value of the Eldrazi precon. Worldgorger is fine in most scenarios, but you're running it in a Kaalia deck. Maybe be mindful of the decks the others at your table are playing.

Edit: oh I missed the D tutor as well. Yeah no dude. Your deck in 3 cards already has a higher cost investment than the entirety of your opponents decks.

First off, that sounds awesome, so consider me to be cheering for you pulling it out, and I see no real issue with that happening, much less at turn 12.

I think a couple things are at play here, this had been mentioned in another comment, but you did mention that one of the other players was on an unmodified precon.

I mostly play high power and cEDH, but I have a couple decks that I maintain for low power environments, really low to mid, sometimes I have to sandbag in really low power, my favorite decks are my strongest decks and my LGS means I'll usually have a high power pod. At home I also have a set of WH40K and Fallout Precons that I've kept together for dertle fests on Spelltable.

Your deck, headed by Khalia, with The One Ring and Animate Dead/World Gorger, has some high power benchmarks. Things I wouldn't expect to see in a precon level pod. If your pod was expecting precon level, and those cards show up, that could be some mismatched expectations and that is a big driver of salt.

All of that aside though, if the game ended on your 12th turn, I personally belive very little isn't fair game by turn 10+. Everyone should have enough resources to create massive swings every turn, even precon games can end in under 10 turns, and decidedly mid power games I play are almost always over by T8. That still means low power folks can get salty over high power stuff, with expectations having been subverted.

So, you did high power things, in a potentially low power pod, but you did it at a point in time in the game where anything and anyone should have been able to get things closed out with the amount of resources that should have been acceued. I wouldn't worry too much about the salt, but maybe, if your pod likes precons, snag one to play in those games, and help them push towards some higher power.

Your friends should have mentioned they don't like combos before playing. What's ok or not in EDH depends on your playgroup, some enjoy high powered stuff finishing games in 4-5 turns, others want to play 2 hour long grindy games.

It was turn 12. Even the Eldrazi precon deck should have won by then. Although, to be fair, it seems like your deck may be the only one running heavy tutors and combos. It's just a power scale thing. If the rest of the table is playing 5 and 6's, with no tutors or combos, it's kind of bad etiquette to play a deck that does (unless itsnjust full of goofy things/group hugging).

Instead I was kinda scolded & made to feel like my win was cheap & told my deck was OP.

That’s Commander player speech for “Good game! See you next time!”

There's a few things worth noting here, but the biggest one is that pulling off a combo on turn 12 isn't one of them in a meta with a stronger than normal precon.

First, your combo was inherently harder to deal with than normal. Yes it's a wincon but it's a wincon that lacks interaction room - it's a land, Worldgorger, and Animate Dead. There's heavily limited room to deal with it to the point where even Purphoros would feel better. They're not gonna think that the land is a threat, they're gonna think that the [[Cabal Coffers]] or [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] is a threat.

Second, I don't think it's so much your combo. I think the problem is that you showed a combo that you can easily and reliably pull off, even if it only happened on turn 12. You've got Kaalia, who can drop Worldgorger into play and force your opponents to play around it for the rest of the game. If you have a way to get Worldgorger in your grave on your own, you're forcing your opponents to play around it for the rest of the game (or until someone draws a piece of graveyard hate).

Third, now that you showed Kaalia with Worldgorger combo, Demonic Tutor, and The One Ring, they're likely assuming that you've built more cheap/easy wincons in there along with filling your deck with more tutors and crazy card draw. I'm not saying that you do or don't, I'm pointing out the easy conclusion to come to.

Ultimately, all you can do is talk about it. Kaalia inherently is a strong commander that cheeses out kills/wins, maybe the solution would be to cut out the tutors and rely on the luck of the draw, maybe it would be to change commanders and put Kaalia in the 99 so she's not readily available, but if you don't talk to your friends about it you'll never know.

Let's not make the mistake we make in every thread where we try to tell someone who had a weird experience with one specific playgroup that they violated some rule of rhe format. Playing EDH with strangers is always fraught. Every player feels different ways about different things. Just remember, if everyone had a chance to do their thing and you end the game, good. Games have to end. Play a few more games imo, you will get it

Dude that sounds like an epic first game coming back. As others have said it’s turn 12 game should be ending any turn if not a couple of turns ago. Salty player probably had a win on their turn and got mad they didn’t get to do their thing.

That being said, there are a couple of possible pain points here for other players:

•Kaalia is a notoriously powerful commander.

•One Ring is an expensive S-tier auto-include advantage engine that noticeably powers up any deck at all.

•Worldgorger loop is a well-known 2 (3) card infinite that wins on the spot if it resolves.

•Tutoring for half of said combo with Demonic Tutor, the strongest tutor in the game.

None of these things is egregious by itself but the annoyance of seeing all of them from a single deck in a low power game is additive. Everyone has their own concept of fun and anything that subverts or supersedes that may provoke a negative reaction. I’m not a fan of hit or miss silver bullet hosers a la Blood Moon but some people actively enjoy them. I personally wouldn’t resort to ad hominems in the face of such but I might switch to a stronger deck for the next game.

In a way your experience somewhat recalls my return to EDH. My first commander coming back was [[Zur the Enchanter]] who I remembered from Cold Snap and thought hey I could do all kinds of cool toolbox kind of stuff with this guy. Zur is at least as busted in the command zone as Kaalia and after a couple games I realized the optimal play pattern of the deck I built was not what I imagined, was super consistent and oppressive, and generally not very fun after I had played it out a few times. I hope Kaalia works out better for you than Zur did for me but even though he didn’t last that long those games taught me some important lessons about what kind of fun I want to have with EDH and how to build decks that get me there. I find I like decks that consistently present something different every game with nondeterministic synergies that evolve as I put more cards into play. My advice is play more games, find out what’s fun for you, build decks that get you there, and don’t let anybody else tell you they know better.

With the understanding that a Rule Zero conversation is necessary for a fun game for everyone, my lgs playgroup (about 16 players) have adopted the info here: https://www.edhmultiverse.com/ as the foundation of our talks. It has made the experience much, much better for everyone (unless we get a pubstomp random with a "power level 5 or 6" deck that takes 2 long turns and combos out against someone's precon)

Turn 12

Literally all that needs to be said. If a game went on for 12 turns, ANYTHING that wins is fair game.

TL;DR

Just talk to the people you're playing with. You can have a fun game without salt if you just set proper expectations. Also, know what kinds of personalities at a game shop you are compatible with. Don't be afraid to decline an invitation if you don't think it's a good fit. Just cause you sit at the table doesn't mean you're obligated to draw a hand and play.

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EDH requires intentional communication with your playgroup about what you're expecting. One person's preconceived notion of what the game should be or look like can completely sway the table's mood if it isn't aligned with everyone.

I don't think you did anything wrong considering the circumstances. Especially considering you hadn't played in however long.

Some super basic "Archetypes" of players exist, and I'll try and give some examples and what to look for here.

(I'm using "he/him/masculine" here generically for the sake of brevity. This could be literally anyone of any identity)

Also, while this is at least partly satire, you will come across these archetypes, and they will behave in similar manners to these. Just...make light of the situation and know what you want out of your magic night. Say no to pods you don't think you'll vibe with, and remember that conceding is a free action in casual settings. Leave the table before the table leaves you in a sour mood.

Playing for 25 years guy:

sleeves are well-used, having spent a lot of time shuffling. His "Pet Deck" likely costs more than your car. He enjoys telling you about each individual card that is currently worth over ~$50 that he reveals and divulges the story of how he came across it in stunning never exaggerated detail...

They are either:

• the easiest people to play with cause they know how to read the table and play to the table's power level, or;
• They will play their deck to its power level and, if they feel they are at too high a power level, offer to play a different deck after winning cause that one "did its thing today"

But It's Just A Pre-con Guy:

This guy will remind you 6 times (minimum) throughout the game that he's just playing a pre-con and that he doesn't feel like he's well-equipped to answer the big bad threat that was just cast, or that he will take too long now to rebuild thanks to that board wipe, but will also give you lip when you ask about his Smothering Tithe, Mana Crypt, and Dockside Extortionist that happen to be in the deck cause "oh, I opened them, and I thought they fit the theme, but it's still basically just a pre-con."

The Pubstomper:

Will "accidentally" combo off as soon as someone presents any sort of board threat/presence that he no longer thinks he can deal with. Avoid at all costs.

The cEDH Player:

This person will talk. A lot. You can't really blame them, because cEDH as a format (yes, it's its own format and needs its own ban list. I will die on this hill) is a highly political format with a lot of talking to make sure that each play from each player is as optimal as it can be until you're trying to win. They will likely tell you multiple times throughout the game that he agrees with that play because "yeah, that's objectively correct to target that artifact with your abrade, it resolves."

They will probably be among the most knowledgeable players regarding mechanics, rules, and win conditions and strategies, and if you're patient, they can teach you a lot if you don't mind stories of "Almost Got There Turn 1" and "Can you believe they let me have a dockside for 17?"

The Genuinely Good Guy:

This guy probably has like, 15 decks ready to go, each of them fairly well-optimized and probably even theme-sleeved. He Loves the game, and just wants everyone around him to love it just as much. He will quite literally bend over backward to help a player of any caliber experience the game to a more enjoyable degree.

No one hates playing with this person. They're always easy to read, forgiving, adaptive, and take losses in the most sportsmanlike manner you've ever seen.

Find as many of these types as possible and make sure you're good friends. They also tend to have TONS of trades available and are likely willing to make sub-optimal trades with you to get people closer to their ideal deck list.

The One Guy:

There seem to be at least a couple examples of this archetype that show up as regulars at any LGS, and you'll immediately become aware of them when you see them because they immediately will talk to you about every other fandom that they love outside of magic while wasting time on their switch between turns, not paying attention to major aspects of the game, and complaining that they had an answer to the big-bad thing that happened two turn cycles ago that he was in the store getting a (3rd or 4th) monster during. Often they have playmats that are borderline inappropriate for the store, and if you try and make a comment about how there's kids around, the typical response is "They don't need to be over here" or "But there's nothing wrong with it, it's just anime."

These guys are fine for a 4th if you absolutely need a 4th. But I would recommend a 3-pod so you can wait for a proper 4th to let the game feel good.

Conclusion

Just know what you want out of your night and be picky if you don't like what you're doing. No one is forcing you to stay through the 7th death of a [[Child of Alara]] board-wipe tribal commander.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you won, it's not like it was in the first 5 turns of the game. Besides, you were at 6 life, and not likely to survive until your next turn, you had to do what you had to win. As long as you weren't unpleasant to interact with, then you had a clean win.

Some players are salty. Games have to end. Congrats on your win!

Lit play, and congrats on a win in the first game

People might get upset with you winning when you have powerful cards in your deck and they don’t because they assumed everyone would be playing on the same level. Demonic tutor and the one ring are usually reserved for only high power games. They may have felt cheated out of the game because you betrayed what they expected to see in the match.

Your win was valid, your friends are just salty and there needs to be a conversation about what kind of game everyone wants to play.
If your friends can't handle combos, fast mana, stax, land destruction etc, you might need to play a different kind of deck with them and find a group that will gladly play against kalia and enjoy the chaos because everyone else is also trying to win spectacularly.

GG's :)

that is awesome

I still to this day have mana burn anxiety 😆

People only say they like playing magic most of the time. They are lying they only like winning magic games.

I think there was just an imbalance in the decks. While I've built some decks that could be played in a pod with a precon safely, I had to build them with that purpose in mind.

I don't know so much about how they reacted, but they were right to say something about the imbalance. Hell I would have said something too, I would probably have just been a little nicer and tried to explain why it was wrong.

lol welcome to edh....that sounded like a great way to win the game... salty bois be salty is all

If i win then it’s legit, if anyone else wins then they used hax

Commander as a whole has actually been a little smoother and plays faster which imo is a good thing. The main thing that has changed is that people get butthurt and petty even more quickly than they used to. That’s basically the game in a nutshell. Oh also your clones don’t kill legends now just letting you know in advance. My clone.dec got wrecked haha

Yeah you are playing a heavily customized deck with meta cards against a precon 😂

Opponent is just salty because he didn't win when they were close, sadly this happens and it sounds a little imbalanced with the tutor and one ring but at the same time that eldrazi deck is nothing to scoff at.

Also anyone who says "no combo" is just a salty bitch, every deck usuay has a couple of combos even precons.

It's turn 12. You pulled out a win. Good on you.

Kaalia is a high power commander. If you guys didn't set the expectation of the game up front with the two strangers, do that in the future, but they should know when they see Kaalia. Enjoy your victory.

People in EDH will be salty regardless. I had a guy scoop turn two to a mesmeric orb and been told fast mana isn’t an 8 lol.

If you won at 6 life on turn 12 I'd say that's reasonable. They had 12 turns to pull a win together and couldn't, then you could, it's as simple as that imo.

Don't worry too much about it. People will always be a little upset when they don't win. But remember this, Game has to end eventually, at around turn 12, id hope the game would be over soon. It's not a super cheesy combo either, and it could be responded to.

What matters is how you felt about the win, if you felt like you deserved it, then be happy and move on. If you don't like winning with the combo then take a piece out.

It sounds like it was a back and forth game, with no one in the lead for a majority of the game, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Game has gotta end

If I was playing against you and that happened.. I’d first be like WHAT THE FUCK!! Then laugh, and do a classic handshake and good game like we are playing youth soccer in the 90’s.

If you aren’t able to pull have jank moves and instant win combos on turn 12, then you deserve to lose.

If you pulled that on turn 2-4, yeah I’d be pissed, But that late in the game is endgame territory.

If you’re winning on turn 12 you’re likely on the same level as your opponents.

EDH players complain a lot and it's usually a bummer.

Sounds like a mindset issue. Anyone who gets salty after losing should not play edh because each player is expected to lose 75% of the time.

Welcome to the biggest downside of commander, balancing feelings and trying to win

Sore losers will forever be a thing. Don’t ever feel bad about it. It’s their problem, not yours.

Kaalia of The Vast  - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
The One Ring  - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Demonic Tutor  - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Animate Dead  - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Worldgorger Dragon  - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Abraded Bluffs  - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
All cards

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

A combo on turn 12? I would have been fine, even if I was playing with one of my combo-less decks.

At worst, I would have been criticizing myself for not holding up countermagic or removal, not complaining about a combo loss on turn freakin' 12.

I think the main issue here is the imbalance and your method of victory. Commander, as a social format, has some unwritten “rules” and grievances. At its core the format is supposed to be enjoyable for all players involved. As a result, infinite combos, especially 2 card infinites, are looked down upon. Lots of players view it as a dishonorable way to win, like pulling something out of your ass.

That’s not the worst part here, however. There was no pre game talk about deck strength, and as a result you had a Precon up against a deck that includes: one of the worst Kill On Sight commanders, demonic tutor, and the One Ring. That’s generally like putting a toddler in the ring with Mike Tyson, although the Eldrazi Precon is the strongest we’ve seen in a while.

It sounds like the table is probably used to sitting around and BS'ing. I have a group of old timers where it's less a game more an excuse to get together and bs/talk trash to each other. Games are long and combos are kind of frowned upon. Just get to know the expectation.

Tutor into an infinite combo has and will always be frowned upon at casual tables it's just how the game is. Depending on the people involved you may want to run neither, one, or both. It's important to know the people you're playing with and if they are trying to play that kind of game or you will end up with people grumbling about it/not playing with you again.

Given that you're talking about having played seriously in 03 and how people considered the format back then I'm guessing you were playing competitively and it was like the dumb whatever format people did on the side after scrubbing out of T1, T1.5, and T2 tournaments(or as they'd be called now Vintage, Legacy, and Standard). People who came from that perspective of play often fall into the tournament mind set which is, "As long as it's legal in the format expect and be cool with playing against it."

Current EDH players are often a mix of players like that and kitchen table style players. Kitchen table players tend to be more about "Hey we want to have a fun game experience so don't play things that upend game experiences, don't run infinite combos, counter/stax/lock decks that make the game unplayable if you didn't play around that, etc." Make sure you know what table you're at and the player expectations before you pick your deck and tailor the deck you choose to play at that table to match those expectations.

Many of the more tournament mind set players end up playing in a sub group of the format called cEDH or competitive EDH though that has its own problems.

Hey, I waa really into mtg in high school too, but you appear to be around 3-4 years older than me, because my era was 2005-2007. Ravnica was when I really got into it.

Meh people act like coming back with a cool thing the deck can do if those hand ful of things align is a bad thing. Honestly I don't really buy into that. You won and by the skin of your teeth after what sounded like a hard fought win. So good on you.

Also his own fault for bringing in a precon. When they are typically bad at responding to things. Especially in an online format when he could have taken the time to bring it up to snuff

There is an expectation of power levels. A precon power level is nowhere near your deck, no matter how strong the precon.

You have Gamble, Grim Tutor, Vampiric, entomb...yeah the game went to t12, but you could have feasibly ended it on turn 2 with your deck. No precon is going to even come close to that level of power. I would hazard a guess that the table was holding on for dear life each of your turns, with your significant threats, efficient interaction, and the best tutors.

Not just WGD, but also Gisela + helm....

You should just grab a precon, because otherwise if you wanted to play kaalia at that table, everything from your mana base, to your threats, to your answers are going to need to be dramatically changed

You made it to turn 12ish and won. Congrats man. You played a very good and long game so don’t get discouraged by all the salty tears. Your decks sounds like a solid casual deck. The only OP decks that are considered OP usually are wining by turn 5. Their whining isn’t because your deck is powerful. It’s because they didn’t win.

Running Armageddon 😂 you definitely need to have a discussion with your playgroup about power balance. Worldgorger loops and the like. And don’t forget how fun the one ring is to play against

That deserves a high five in my books, but I play with guys who have thousands of hours playing, vs my maybe 100 hours total since 2014. I rarely win, but a competitive game is always fun in my books!

Congrats on the win!

Some people will always find a reason to complain. If worldgorger is in your graveyard they should have been expecting that, graveyard hate exists for a reason.

Edh and anime are similar; the activity itself is fine, it's the fans/players that are the problem

I've read the answers in this thread with interest. I'm a super casual player drawn to the format by the inherent variance and potential viability of bad old cards and weird overcosted draft chaff. I've played 60 card formats and still play limited from time to time. But I find joy in building thematic decks and assembling nonsensical engines to try and secure a win.

All that being said I think what you did sounds fine in the context of a game at that power level. Making sure everyone knows what to expect from the game up front is key. But even with a power imbalance pulling out a big combo win on turn 12 or whatever is totally cool with me, even though I think tutors are boring and contrary to the ethos of the format, and that The One Ring is a mistake.

Go well and I hope you get to do some more cool stuff

Am I crazy or are the deck's ratios terrible? Also 9 tutors and 17 removals? Come on man.

Infinites are kinda lame , but that’s opinion.. If you have tutors for your infinites you’re bound to win every game..? I run Vito and exquisite blood in my Edgar deck and it’s kinda lame lol

Nicely done, to those saying this was a "Precon power table" that Eldrazi precon is not a Precon power level precon, have played against, it's absolutely terrifying what it does out of the box and is stronger than alot of homebrews.

Second OP is playing Kaalia, which if your playing it you built in back up plans, just like the OP did, because Kaalia will be targeted. People fear Kaalia and at the end of the day she is 2/2, quite easy to kill and if she goes back to command zone you need a plan B, possibly plan C and D aswell.

OP, as a fellow Kaalia player(Have the original Heavenly Inferno) I applaud your come back, nicely done, and good job building a Kaalia deck that justifies people's fear of her. I won a game a couple days ago in similar fashion. [[Runescarred Demon]] to get an [[Insurrection]] for the win next turn after a catastrophic broadwipe while at low hp.

Speaking as a Kaalia player: the win was “cheap” because it involved nothing your commander actually does or wants to do.

It’s a generic RB win con that you tutored for.

I don’t begrudge the win, but I have seen it a 1000 times and at casual (non-competitive) tables it’s just a zzzz from me.

The biggest problem with EDH is power level. In a group of 4, if only one person is playing a higher power deck against three other precons or casually thrown together decks, it’s going to show.

The rule 0 talk is absolutely essential. If it’s not done on the regular it can break up play groups. Trust me.

Do you just not have social skills or what