TL;DR: I had the appearance of "volume loss" from tretinoin. Then I discovered an application method that totally fixed it. Then it stopped working and got worse. What gives?

Going to preface this novel of a post by clarifying that I am not actually saying that tretinoin caused volume or facial fat loss, as I know there's no evidence that tret can do that and it's a hotly disputed topic in this sub. I don't think that tret actually killed my facial fat or fat cells or whatever, just caused it to LOOK like I've had significant volume loss. However the point of this post is to say that I think there's an application technique that will fix it, I'm just trying to figure out what it is.

Ok backstory: I've been using tret consistently for just under 2 years now. Started with tretinoin 0.025% cream, then 0.05% cream, then switched to Altreno, now using tazarotene 0.05% gel. Before tret I used Differin for about 2 years. I've struggled with my skin my entire life - I had terrible acne as a teenager, have always had really oily and sensitive skin and large pores. BC largely cleared up my acne, but I still had a lot of redness and texture as well as some early signs of aging like fine lines. I started tret to address those issues - I wanted more even skin and the anti-aging benefits (I was 29 when I started tret). Maybe 2 months into using tret I woke up one day, looked at myself in the mirror, and saw a very different face from what I was used to: the eleven lines between my eyebrows were suddenly much more prominent, the tear troughs under my eyes were much deeper, my formerly-full cheeks were deflated and flat and the lines of malar bags visible at the top of my cheeks. I had no idea what was going on but chalked it up to the "tretinoin uglies" I had read about and assumed/hoped it would fix itself. Before anyone asks, I focus on hydration in my routine (my current routine's at the bottom of the post).

Needless to say, it didn't get better. I kept using tret however because it sort of seemed like the damage was done - I stopped using it for about a month hoping the volume loss would reverse but it stayed exactly the same, so I went back to using tret because it at least helped with my uneven skin tone and texture. Tret has given me the confidence to go outside without makeup for the first time in my adult life, but it's also radically altered and aged my face in a way I didn't think was possible.

BUT: last summer on a whim I added a new product to my routine. This was The Ordinary Multi-Peptide + Copper Peptides 1% Serum. One day I applied it before tret (I know you're not supposed to use the two products together, I just didn't realize at the time). The next day I woke up with the best skin of my life: even, glowy, not oily or dry, just perfectly balanced. Most shockingly, the seeming "volume loss" was gone. The eleven lines between my eyebrows were smoothed out, tear troughs not hollow, cheeks full and malar bags gone. My face looked fuller and more youthful than it had even before I started tret.

I thought all my problems were solved and I could finally, finally be happy with my skin. I stuck to the routine that seemed to work of applying TO Copper Peptides Serum before tret. One time I tried applying tret without that product beforehand, and indeed my skin went back to the borderline-skeletal appearance it had previously. So that product really seemed to be the silver bullet to me.

But then one day it just...stopped working. I didn't change anything about my routine, but the appearance of volume loss came back. It was like my skin got used to whatever the effect of that serum before tret was and it stopped being effective. I went crazy trying to find a duplicate - I assumed the effective ingredient was the copper peptides, so I tried a bunch of other peptide and copper peptide products. Then one day I looked more closely at the list of ingredients in that serum and noticed the third-listed ingredient: Lactococcus Ferment Lysate. I had a serum lying around that a friend had given me that contained Lactococcus Ferment Lysate as the 2nd ingredient, BABOR Moisture Glow Serum. I applied that before tret one night and sure enough, bouncy beautiful glowy skin the next day. The same thing happened though: within 1-2 months, the effects seemed to wear off and my skin went back to how it was looking before. I panic-bought a bunch of products containing as many different fermented ingredients as I could, and while those helped somewhat for a while, I never had the full bouncy glow that I had the first couple times I applied products containing Lactococcus Ferment Lysate pre-tret. Currently, even though I'm still using all these different ferment products in my routine, whatever limited effect they were having on the appearance of volume loss is entirely gone. If anything, some of the appearance of aging has gotten worse just in the past couple weeks: the eleven lines between my eyebrows used to only be visible in certain lights, now they're permanently visible and there's a deep divot I can feel whenever I touch my forehead. While I know aging is natural and tret can't stop it, I just feel like I have visible signs of skin aging that were abruptly caused by tret.

Basically I'm at my wit's end and am posting this as a last resort in case anyone has thoughts, insights, suggestions. I don't think tret has actually caused permanent facial fat loss, but I do think there's something about how I'm applying tret that is causing it to LOOK like I've had facial fat loss. The only thing I've found that helps is applying products containing ferments pre-tret, but those effects are temporary and seem to stop working after around 6 weeks. Currently no products containing ferments seem to be working - it's like my skin got oversaturated on them. Stopping tret doesn't seem to work either, it seems like I have to apply tret, just in a very specific way, in order to reverse whatever damaging effects it's had on my skin.

If anyone has ANY ideas about why the ferments would work and then stop working, alternate application techniques, etc. please let me know. I've tried different strengths and vehicles of tret (and now taz), I've tried short contact therapy, nothing seems to do it. The only thing that's ever made a difference are these stupid ferments but their effects seem to have a short lifespan.

Here's my current nighttime routine:

• double cleanse with TO Squalane cleanser and Vanicream cleanser
• Benton Fermentation Essence
• Peach Slices Snail Mucin Toner
• BABOR Moisture Glow Serum
• Numbuzin No 3 Serum (I just ran out of this but had been using it until last week)
• MISSHA Time Revolution Night Repair Ampoule 5x
• Hada Labo Gokujyun Premium Lotion
• Tazret .05% gel (every three nights)
• Vanicream Moisturizing Cream

AM routine is just the Hado Labo and sunscreen (St Jane Beauty SPF 30).

I've tried leaving out each of these products, I've tried applying tret on bare skin and everything else after, doesn't make a difference. At this point I'm using these products just to use them up, they don't seem to be having any positive or negative effects.

If anyone makes it to the end of this saga and has anything to suggest, I'll be eternally grateful ❤️ I've scoured the skincare subs for similar experiences but while others seem to have the same kind of volume loss I do, I haven't seen anyone report being able to fix or reverse it, which makes me a bit panicky. Especially if anyone has any thoughts about the ferments thing and why they worked and then stopped working I'd love to know because it's baffling to me.

TL;DR: I had the appearance of "volume loss" from tretinoin. Then I discovered an application method that totally fixed it. Then it stopped working and got worse. What gives?

Going to preface this novel of a post by clarifying that I am not actually saying that tretinoin caused volume or facial fat loss, as I know there's no evidence that tret can do that and it's a hotly disputed topic in this sub. I don't think that tret actually killed my facial fat or fat cells or whatever, just caused it to LOOK like I've had significant volume loss. However the point of this post is to say that I think there's an application technique that will fix it, I'm just trying to figure out what it is.

Ok backstory: I've been using tret consistently for just under 2 years now. Started with tretinoin 0.025% cream, then 0.05% cream, then switched to Altreno, now using tazarotene 0.05% gel. Before tret I used Differin for about 2 years. I've struggled with my skin my entire life - I had terrible acne as a teenager, have always had really oily and sensitive skin and large pores. BC largely cleared up my acne, but I still had a lot of redness and texture as well as some early signs of aging like fine lines. I started tret to address those issues - I wanted more even skin and the anti-aging benefits (I was 29 when I started tret). Maybe 2 months into using tret I woke up one day, looked at myself in the mirror, and saw a very different face from what I was used to: the eleven lines between my eyebrows were suddenly much more prominent, the tear troughs under my eyes were much deeper, my formerly-full cheeks were deflated and flat and the lines of malar bags visible at the top of my cheeks. I had no idea what was going on but chalked it up to the "tretinoin uglies" I had read about and assumed/hoped it would fix itself. Before anyone asks, I focus on hydration in my routine (my current routine's at the bottom of the post).

Needless to say, it didn't get better. I kept using tret however because it sort of seemed like the damage was done - I stopped using it for about a month hoping the volume loss would reverse but it stayed exactly the same, so I went back to using tret because it at least helped with my uneven skin tone and texture. Tret has given me the confidence to go outside without makeup for the first time in my adult life, but it's also radically altered and aged my face in a way I didn't think was possible.

BUT: last summer on a whim I added a new product to my routine. This was The Ordinary Multi-Peptide + Copper Peptides 1% Serum. One day I applied it before tret (I know you're not supposed to use the two products together, I just didn't realize at the time). The next day I woke up with the best skin of my life: even, glowy, not oily or dry, just perfectly balanced. Most shockingly, the seeming "volume loss" was gone. The eleven lines between my eyebrows were smoothed out, tear troughs not hollow, cheeks full and malar bags gone. My face looked fuller and more youthful than it had even before I started tret.

I thought all my problems were solved and I could finally, finally be happy with my skin. I stuck to the routine that seemed to work of applying TO Copper Peptides Serum before tret. One time I tried applying tret without that product beforehand, and indeed my skin went back to the borderline-skeletal appearance it had previously. So that product really seemed to be the silver bullet to me.

But then one day it just...stopped working. I didn't change anything about my routine, but the appearance of volume loss came back. It was like my skin got used to whatever the effect of that serum before tret was and it stopped being effective. I went crazy trying to find a duplicate - I assumed the effective ingredient was the copper peptides, so I tried a bunch of other peptide and copper peptide products. Then one day I looked more closely at the list of ingredients in that serum and noticed the third-listed ingredient: Lactococcus Ferment Lysate. I had a serum lying around that a friend had given me that contained Lactococcus Ferment Lysate as the 2nd ingredient, BABOR Moisture Glow Serum. I applied that before tret one night and sure enough, bouncy beautiful glowy skin the next day. The same thing happened though: within 1-2 months, the effects seemed to wear off and my skin went back to how it was looking before. I panic-bought a bunch of products containing as many different fermented ingredients as I could, and while those helped somewhat for a while, I never had the full bouncy glow that I had the first couple times I applied products containing Lactococcus Ferment Lysate pre-tret. Currently, even though I'm still using all these different ferment products in my routine, whatever limited effect they were having on the appearance of volume loss is entirely gone. If anything, some of the appearance of aging has gotten worse just in the past couple weeks: the eleven lines between my eyebrows used to only be visible in certain lights, now they're permanently visible and there's a deep divot I can feel whenever I touch my forehead.

Basically I'm at my wit's end and am posting this as a last resort in case anyone has thoughts, insights, suggestions. I don't think tret has actually caused permanent facial fat loss, but I do think there's something about how I'm applying tret that is causing it to LOOK like I've had facial fat loss. The only thing I've found that helps is applying products containing ferments pre-tret, but those effects are temporary and seem to stop working after around 6 weeks. Currently no products containing ferments seem to be working - it's like my skin got oversaturated on them. Stopping tret doesn't seem to work either, it seems like I have to apply tret, just in a very specific way, in order to reverse whatever damaging effects it's had on my skin.

If anyone has ANY ideas about why the ferments would work and then stop working, alternate application techniques, etc. please let me know. I've tried different strengths and vehicles of tret (and now taz), I've tried short contact therapy, nothing seems to do it. The only thing that's ever made a difference are these stupid ferments but their effects seem to have a short lifespan.

Here's my current nighttime routine:

• double cleanse with TO Squalane cleanser and Vanicream cleanser
• Benton Fermentation Essence
• Peach Slices Snail Mucin Toner
• BABOR Moisture Glow Serum
• Numbuzin No 3 Serum (I just ran out of this but had been using it until last week)
• MISSHA Time Revolution Night Repair Ampoule 5x
• Hada Labo Gokujyun Premium Lotion
• Tazret .05% gel (every three nights)
• Vanicream Moisturizing Cream

AM routine is just the Hado Labo and sunscreen (St Jane Beauty SPF 30).

I've tried leaving out each of these products, I've tried applying tret on bare skin and everything else after, doesn't make a difference. At this point I'm using these products just to use them up, they don't seem to be having any positive or negative effects.

If anyone makes it to the end of this saga and has anything to suggest, I'll be eternally grateful ❤️ I've scoured the skincare subs for similar experiences but while others seem to have the same kind of volume loss I do, I haven't seen anyone report being able to fix or reverse it, which makes me a bit panicky. Especially if anyone has any thoughts about the ferments thing and why they worked and then stopped working I'd love to know because it's baffling to me.