I am not responsible for the people who self-sabotage themselves and the country by voting Tory.

I looked on the tactical voting website, and there was no consensus on which party had the best chance of beating the Tories here, so I voted for the one that hasn’t decided to fuck over me and my people. When every prediction for the past month has put Labour at a guaranteed win I’m comfortable in making that choice.

If Labour are unable to clutch the open goal that is this election, then they have bigger problems than alienating me and mine.

If Labour sweeps, we have no protection from whatever Starmer’s government does to appease the anti-LGBT folks. If he’s going to win anyway it would be nice to have an opposition that might actually fight for us.

Looks like they may have fixed Spoiler refusing to enter the DLC final boss arena?

I ain’t reading all that. Happy for you though. Or sorry that it happened.

I mean, Mohg somehow met the Formless Mother without doing anything special. Why is it unbelievable that Morgott did? He can still wound her, after all, he must have learned how to harness that power somehow.

If Radagon was being “passed over” for Godfrey like you suggest, then he would have to have been around at the time despite disappearing from historical record. This supports the argument that he could have sired Messmer and Melina before Godfrey was around. Which makes sense, since Messmer has more identifying traits of his lineage than Godfrey’s.

I specifically mentioned that the divine curses are another hallmark of Radagon’s lineage. Messmer and Melina’s curse gives them more in common with Malenia and Miquella than any of Godfrey’s children. Dismissing the hair and the butterflies on top of that is just being contrarian when those qualities are widely accepted by the larger lore community.

Refusing to accept proof and then asserting that they can be Godfrey’s kids with NO EVIDENCE is asinine.

I didn’t say he was doing rituals. I said that he met her, and that he has the capacity to perform bloodflame attacks. Nothing in the game contradicts this.

Explicitly passed over? Provide evidence.

If Radagon was around before Godfrey, then she wasn’t choosing him “over” anyone.

I believe what the in-game evidence is telling me: that Messmer is her eldest son, and not the child of Godfrey.

It’s fine if you disagree. That’s half the point of the FromSoft style. But I’ve backed up everything I’ve said with in-game evidence, and if that’s not going to convince you then this entire conversation is a waste of time.

What do you mean explain Morgott? He lived in that sewer too, it would have been easy to meet the mother alongside Mohg. The fact that he claims to be ashamed of using that power during the boss battle means it’s a connection he could use but prefers not to, because of his golden order loyalties.

Mohg’s “rituals” are just elaborate bloodflame castings. Ultimately it’s just a fancy way of wounding the formless mother, as every bloodflame incantation does.

Yes, Shabriri isnt a demigod, that’s why I used him to illustrate my meaning. My point is that having flame in common isn’t enough to suggest that Messmer and Mohg share a father, because other flame powers connected to neither of those characters exist.

If Radagon can exist as a separate entity in the present, there’s no reason to believe he couldn’t in the past. Messmer’s existence is testament to that possibility, since he’s not Godfrey’s son.

The curses come from the outer gods. It’s not inherited by bloodline. Radagon already having that curse from the start is evidence that he and Marika were distinct entities around the time of the giants’ fall, which means Radagon could easily have been present to sire Messmer beforehand.

Radagon could easily have children with Marika without being her lord.

No one other than Godfrey or Marika are directly mentioned to have fought the giants. Does that mean the two of them did it on their own? Of course not. He could easily have been present and simply not mentioned in the scant item descriptions we happen to have.

And that’s assuming his being Marika’s son was public knowledge, which it could’ve easily not been. Would YOU want your blasphemous serpent-cursed son to be in the spotlight?

Mohg and Morgott made contact with the formless mother directly. That’s why they can use bloodflame and other omen can’t. Because they are interacting with her, specifically. Mohg himself is operating on her behalf, by choice. Nothing in the game suggests they were born with that connection to her.

Frenzied Flame is also a fire, does that mean Shabriri is related to Messmer? Obviously not.

Radagon not being around during Godfrey’s reign doesn’t mean he couldn’t be around beforehand. Especially since he’s Marika in the current day. They could’ve easily merged or diverged in the past to facilitate Messmer and Melina’s births prior to her marriage to Godfrey.

I am not straw manning you, what??

And those two Bloodflame attacks do the same thing! They wound the formless mother!

Morgott and Mohg’s “curse” is that they’re omen! That’s not an outer god’s influence, they’re omen!

And Mohg doesn’t even have red hair. Do you - do you think Promised Consort is what Mohg looks like? That’s what Radahn looks like. Miquella changed the body to look like Radahn.

But I already answered your question about Messmer. If all you’re going to do from here is fail to understand how Bloodflame or Omens work then I’m not going to waste any more time explaining it to you. Have a nice day!

Mohg explicitly has to wound the Formless Mother to cast his bloodflame spells. The description of the Mohgwyn Dynasty Spear reads:

Trident of Mohg, Lord of Blood. A sacred spear that will come to symbolize his dynasty.

As well as serving as a weapon, it is an instrument of communion with an outer god who bestows power upon accursed blood. The mother of truth desires a wound.

Raise the sacred spear and pierce the body of the Formless Mother. Stab up to three times, creating explosions of blood with each thrust. This skill will coat the armament with bloodflame for a while.

So no, I’m not lying. Bloodflame is the result of wounding the Formless Mother.

That isn’t a source on Melina specifically being born during Godfrey’s reign, so I’m gonna just assume you made that up and move on.

Calling the Swarm of Flies incantation a “special fly” in the same vein as the four butterflies is an absolutely colossal reach. It’s not a butterfly. It’s not even the same type of “item.” It doesn’t count.

My source on the Godfrey lineage is: none of Godfrey’s children are said to be cursed by flame like Messmer and Melina are. None of them have red hair. It’s as simple as that.

Radagon’s children have butterflies associated with them, just like Messmer and Melina do. They’re also cursed, just like Messmer and Melina are. I could’ve sworn I’ve mentioned this at least a couple times already?

“He was around at the same time” is a pathetic connection.

“He was married to Marika at one point while they were also alive” is even worse. If my mother were to remarry tomorrow, would her new spouse suddenly be my birth father? Of course not. It proves nothing.

I don’t understand what the jumble of words at the end there means so I’m just going to let that be.

Anyway, tl;dr Messmer is the eldest because:

• He got special attention from Marika that was afforded to no one else afterwards.
• He’s older than Radahn but isn’t related to Godfrey.
• It’s extremely unlikely that Marika bore any children between Godfrey’s departure and her marriage to Radagon, so he had to be born pre-Godfrey era.

Glad I could answer your question!

Mohg’s Bloodflame abilities are a result of cutting open the Formless Mother. They aren’t inherent like Messmer’s flame or Malenia’s rot.

Source on Melina being born during Godfrey’s reign? Her having reddish hair, a butterfly and control of fire are all qualities that she has in common with Messmer, Malenia and Miquella, yes, I’m glad we’re on the same page. Those are three big connections that aren’t present in Godfrey’s line, by the way, because Messmer isn’t related to him - those are qualities found in Radagon’s children and not Godfrey’s, so it stands to reason that Messmer is related to Radagon. This connection is abundantly clear, I really hope I don’t have to keep explaining it.

Gonna ignore all that sourceless headcanon.

Messmer and Melina participating in wars led by Godfrey has less than zero bearing on when they were born.

The reason why Messmer looking different actually matters is because Godfrey’s children with Marika have two key characteristics - either their golden hair, or their Omen mutations. Messmer has neither of those things, but he does have Radagon’s red hair, and the butterflies associated with at least two of Radagon’s children. So, it is more likely that he is related to Radagon, who he actually has connections to, than Godfrey, who has absolutely nothing in common with him whatsoever.

If fire breathing is an ability shared by many omen then I don’t see how it has any relevance to the present topic. If Messmer’s flame and Mohg’s are different, then there’s no reason to assume they share a father.

Flies being present in a swamp is also not strong evidence for denying Messmer’s obvious shared butterfly motif. At this point you are just being obstinate, there is a marked difference between the butterflies you can catch each having an associated demigod and the swarm of flies incantation being in Mohg’s swamp.

Mohg probably looks different to other omen because he’s… a unique individual? This is a non-point.

There are plenty of clues to his lineage. I’ve listed several already. It’s not my fault that you’re ignoring them.

Mohg was not born with a connection to the Formless Mother, and the Swarm of Flies incantation is connected to the swamp, not Mohg himself like the butterflies are connected to the Marika lineage demigods. As for his appearance - he’s an omen, of course he looks different. There isn’t anything more to it than that. So no, I don’t see any of that as particular compelling evidence for Messmer being a potential Godfrey child.

He isn’t Godfrey’s son. There’s no evidence that he is, and plenty of proof that he isn’t. And since I’ve already made a strong case for his not being born after Godfrey’s departure, the only reasonable option left is to accept he was born before the First Elden Lord married Marika. Ergo, he’s her firstborn son.

I’m not saying he’s the eldest because he’s got red hair, I’m saying his red hair is something that isn’t seen anywhere in Godfrey’s lineage. Ergo, it’s less likely that he’s Godfrey’s son.

The hair and butterflies could absolutely symbolise an outer influence. Outer influences which don’t affect Godfrey’s lineage, I’ll remind you, but do affect all the children Marika had without him. So that’s even more evidence that Messmer isn’t Godfrey’s son despite being older than Radahn.

And since he is older than Radahn, we have to ask ourselves when exactly he was born, and there’s two options - either he was born before Marika married Godfrey, or between her divorce from Godfrey and Radagon’s emergence in the Lands Between. And the fact that Radagon was an unknown quantity prior to his role in the Liurnian War means that no one had heard of him beforehand - but wouldn’t it be strange for the father of a demigod born in that period to be completely unknown?

With that in mind, it’s sensible to conclude that Messmer was not born during that period, and must thus have been born prior to Godfrey’s time as Elden Lord, thereby making him Marika’s eldest.

It would be a mistake to ignore the butterfly connection. It’s an observable truth that no child born of Godfrey possesses one. It’s also an observable truth that no known child of Godfrey has red hair, and that no known child of Godfrey is associated with some kind of outer influence (in this case the Abyssal Serpent). However, we can find all of these qualities in children born of either Radagon or the potential unknown father - and it is possible that Messmer and Melina’s father IS Radagon.

Since it is unlikely that Messmer was born in the short period between Godfrey’s departure and Radagon’s rise to Elden Lord, the most likely period of his birth is prior to the birth of Marika’s other children.

We can tell he’s not of Godfrey’s lineage from two angles:

1: He lacks any identifying traits of the Golden Lineage (either the gold hair or omen traits)

2: He does have identifying traits of the Marika lineage - not just his red hair, but also his butterfly, an association shared with Malenia, Miquella and Melina.

We know that Marika made concessions for Messmer in the form of small gifts and tonics, and then “never again” after him, and we know that he was a child of Marika born before Radahn but not of Godfrey. These two points in conjunction seem to imply that he was born prior to her marriage with Godfrey.

That’s a shame. I really enjoyed TAK:Z, it was nice to play a genuine passion project.

A well deserved big hit for ArcSys. Here’s hoping they keep the support for the game up going forward, there’s still so much we want to see!

I think Merrill benefits hugely from the friendship / rivalry system here, her rivalmance is probably my favourite of the bunch

You can just buy it on the store or download it via game pass. I did the latter and got the original game bundled with it as DLC.

This is all assuming Malenia knew how bad the rot nuke was going to be when she set it off - but this was the first bloom. I doubt that level of devastation was intentional.

Her brother, already on his way to godhood, was a noted healer who could cleanse rot from others. I wouldn’t be surprised if she thought Miquella would be able to help whoever she hurt in the aftermath, not realising just how bad things were going to get.

Kind of a shame such a cool set piece is so out of the way in the background.

If that had been the case I don’t think he would’ve worked so hard on curing her of scarlet rot. The game suggests their love for one another is genuine, and I believe that’s the case too. We know some, like Needle Knight Leda, were genuinely loyal after all.