Messmer vs Malenia vs Radahn, who is the strongest demi god of them all? (Lorewise)

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And I'm not talking about raw strength, everything from the scarlet rot, to the powerful gravity sorcery and the abyssal serpent, every power up counts.

There 3 are known for the greatest feats among the demi gods, or are known to be the strongest of their era. Radahn holding the stars and scarlet rot within him, Malenia holding the influence of an other God and then becoming a scarlet goddess herself and Messmer singlehandedly conquering the entire land of shadows and doing Marika's nasty business, not failing even once.

Who do you think is the strongest of them all?

in EldenRingLoreTalkby ArchlordOmegaIX

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Okbuturwrong

2 of Godfrey's sons have a literal fire in their blood, similar to Godfrey himself whose flesh and breathe steams when he's fighting unrestrained under the pyre of the Erdtree in Giant's Flame. Think about that, he's running hotter than the divine fire around him, and he can erupt the ground with his bear hands yet we're supposed to think that can kill gods and had to be restrained with the lord of beasts just because he's a rowdy guy? Nah he's got something else going on that's tied to the Cruicble, because that's the era he was born and came into power in and if we're honest he looks and fights like one of the highland people that fought the giant red horned bears.

Bloodflies are associated with Mohg, and from what we can see he's got black skin and his hair is all knotted horns. Are we supposed to assume he's not Godfrey's because he looks different, has a fly associated to him, and is cursed with an inner flame from an outer god?? No. So why are we supposed to do that with Melina or Messmer like they weren't born with a flame cursing them, and that they have different hair color associated with the curse of the Fell God following it's defeat?

Pending the theory on hair color, an outer curse, and a special fly falls flat when Mohg is brought up.

Promised Consort Radahn is in Mohg's body, who happens to have dark brown skin and a vibrant head of red hair. I doubt that comes from nothing since Miquella still didn't remove all the horns or change his size to Radahn's, there's immutable features present in that body regardless of the one replaced eye and soul.

The_Green_Filter

Mohg was not born with a connection to the Formless Mother, and the Swarm of Flies incantation is connected to the swamp, not Mohg himself like the butterflies are connected to the Marika lineage demigods. As for his appearance - he’s an omen, of course he looks different. There isn’t anything more to it than that. So no, I don’t see any of that as particular compelling evidence for Messmer being a potential Godfrey child.

He isn’t Godfrey’s son. There’s no evidence that he is, and plenty of proof that he isn’t. And since I’ve already made a strong case for his not being born after Godfrey’s departure, the only reasonable option left is to accept he was born before the First Elden Lord married Marika. Ergo, he’s her firstborn son.

Okbuturwrong

Mohg was born with flames in his blood just like Morgott, where are you getting that they weren't? Even other Omen can breathe flame, it's as much a defining feature as the horns; Morgott and Mohg have an inherit and far more potent flame.

The Bloodflies are associated with Mohg's Blood Swamp, they're present on corpses for crafting and used as an incantation. Mohg is a direct son and demigod from Marika wtf are you talking about? those features are present in and around him.

Morgott and other Omen do not look like Mohg does so dismissing how he looks different while trying to grasp at being different Messmer for looking different than Godwyn or Morgott makes your logic hilariously slick with irony.

I didn't assert that he's Godfrey's son, I'm just saying there's no real clue to his lineage that can't be applied elsewhere and your whole perspective hinges on special flies and hair color lmao

The_Green_Filter

If fire breathing is an ability shared by many omen then I don’t see how it has any relevance to the present topic. If Messmer’s flame and Mohg’s are different, then there’s no reason to assume they share a father.

Flies being present in a swamp is also not strong evidence for denying Messmer’s obvious shared butterfly motif. At this point you are just being obstinate, there is a marked difference between the butterflies you can catch each having an associated demigod and the swarm of flies incantation being in Mohg’s swamp.

Mohg probably looks different to other omen because he’s… a unique individual? This is a non-point.

There are plenty of clues to his lineage. I’ve listed several already. It’s not my fault that you’re ignoring them.

Okbuturwrong

Well now you're just being obtuse because I specifically said Mohg and Morgott have Bloodflame, which other Omen don't have, and is a specific curse by an Outer God you said Godfrey's children lacked. Bloodflies that manifest from Mohgwyn Dynasty blood, sourced primarily with Mohg and the Formless Mother herself are more overt divine aspects than butterflies.

Melina and Messmer are both stated to be born with a flame, similar to Mohg and Morgott. Melina is not said to have the same flame and doesn't have the same hair color as Messmer either so by your logic she's not his sister now even tho she's got a special fly, reddish hair, and control of fire? Melina tells us she was born at the foot of the Erdtree itself with a specific purpose in mind that she follows through on her own volition in a time that falls within Godfrey's reign, so tell me where you got it that she and Messmer were born from the Marika/Radagon union or something unnamed.

Messmer's Flame is just the Giant's Flame coiled with the Abyssal Serpent around it, which came later when he tried to quell his inner flame. His born affliction is said to purely be a flame, not the Serpent that eats at his flame that got him sealed away. Messmer's flame is more than likely part of the curse by the Fell God for the campaign against it; it'd also near date the births of Melina and Messmer to that campaign since the consequences are red hair and different inner flames; you know who conducted that campaign and who was Lord at that time? Godfrey. This is also after Marika had become a God so it's not some weird unspoken union between Marika and Radagon that birthed them if we follow the timeline.

So you're saying looking different than other, like Mohg and Messmer, is a non-point thanks for agreeing in the most roundabout way you could muster. Ironic you're using all the same points to pedestal one character without defined lineage but also downplay another with defined lineage, almost like you're making it the fuck up as you go along because it's not actually talked about whereas Miquella and Malenia's lineage is never in question...funny how that works.

The_Green_Filter

Mohg’s Bloodflame abilities are a result of cutting open the Formless Mother. They aren’t inherent like Messmer’s flame or Malenia’s rot.

Source on Melina being born during Godfrey’s reign? Her having reddish hair, a butterfly and control of fire are all qualities that she has in common with Messmer, Malenia and Miquella, yes, I’m glad we’re on the same page. Those are three big connections that aren’t present in Godfrey’s line, by the way, because Messmer isn’t related to him - those are qualities found in Radagon’s children and not Godfrey’s, so it stands to reason that Messmer is related to Radagon. This connection is abundantly clear, I really hope I don’t have to keep explaining it.

Gonna ignore all that sourceless headcanon.

Messmer and Melina participating in wars led by Godfrey has less than zero bearing on when they were born.

The reason why Messmer looking different actually matters is because Godfrey’s children with Marika have two key characteristics - either their golden hair, or their Omen mutations. Messmer has neither of those things, but he does have Radagon’s red hair, and the butterflies associated with at least two of Radagon’s children. So, it is more likely that he is related to Radagon, who he actually has connections to, than Godfrey, who has absolutely nothing in common with him whatsoever.

Okbuturwrong

You're just lying about how Bloodflame works for Mohg and Morgott now? Both Mohg and Morgott were born with Bloodflame, making it inherit like Messmer's Flame and Malenia's Rot.

Are you actually reading anything I wrote or just skimming and hoping you'll make a good counterpoint? Melina is cursed with flame and red hair just like Messmer, from a time before Radagon and Marika were united to have kids together, just like the Giant's Braid says.

Again, skirting across Mohg having the same qualities of a special fly, control of fire, a curse from an outer god and red haired when his horns are gone from his head but from Godfrey isn't proving anything you're just being dishonest.

Find me a source that says Godfrey's lineage was exempt from the Curse of Flame or the possibility of having red hair, I'll wait.

Tell me what Radagon actually has in common with Melina and Messmer other than having a notably different shade of red hair.

You know what Godfrey has in common with Messmer and Melina? He was around, the consort to Marika and he was cursed along with Marika when they defeated the Fire Giants well before Radagon was even mentioned let alone united with Marika to have kids with her.

So either you pretend Marika and Radagon were actually together that entire time popping out cursed kids just because with nothing supporting that claim. OR Godfrey is their father and they're simply cursed by the Fell God, granting them red hair and painful flames.

Also take note of the Colosseums being built in Godfrey's time, framing the serpents as traitors to the Erdtree. We know Messmer wasn't born with the Abyssal Serpent in him, and it's suggested to have made a deal with Messmer to eat his flame but in turn further cursing him, eating his inner light. Why would Godfrey feel so strongly about serpents betraying the Erdtree if Messmer is nobody special to him?

The_Green_Filter

Mohg explicitly has to wound the Formless Mother to cast his bloodflame spells. The description of the Mohgwyn Dynasty Spear reads:

Trident of Mohg, Lord of Blood. A sacred spear that will come to symbolize his dynasty.

As well as serving as a weapon, it is an instrument of communion with an outer god who bestows power upon accursed blood. The mother of truth desires a wound.

Raise the sacred spear and pierce the body of the Formless Mother. Stab up to three times, creating explosions of blood with each thrust. This skill will coat the armament with bloodflame for a while.

So no, I’m not lying. Bloodflame is the result of wounding the Formless Mother.

That isn’t a source on Melina specifically being born during Godfrey’s reign, so I’m gonna just assume you made that up and move on.

Calling the Swarm of Flies incantation a “special fly” in the same vein as the four butterflies is an absolutely colossal reach. It’s not a butterfly. It’s not even the same type of “item.” It doesn’t count.

My source on the Godfrey lineage is: none of Godfrey’s children are said to be cursed by flame like Messmer and Melina are. None of them have red hair. It’s as simple as that.

Radagon’s children have butterflies associated with them, just like Messmer and Melina do. They’re also cursed, just like Messmer and Melina are. I could’ve sworn I’ve mentioned this at least a couple times already?

“He was around at the same time” is a pathetic connection.

“He was married to Marika at one point while they were also alive” is even worse. If my mother were to remarry tomorrow, would her new spouse suddenly be my birth father? Of course not. It proves nothing.

I don’t understand what the jumble of words at the end there means so I’m just going to let that be.

Anyway, tl;dr Messmer is the eldest because:

He got special attention from Marika that was afforded to no one else afterwards.
He’s older than Radahn but isn’t related to Godfrey.
It’s extremely unlikely that Marika bore any children between Godfrey’s departure and her marriage to Radagon, so he had to be born pre-Godfrey era.

Glad I could answer your question!

Okbuturwrong

Crazy how Bloodflame Talon and Bloodflame Slash just escaped your strawmanning.

The Omen Twins were born with their connection to the Formless Mother through their flaming fucking blood, hilarious how that works against your lie.

What's funny is your "source" is contradicted by Mohg and Morgott having FLAMING CURSED BLOOD FROM AN OUTER GOD AND MOHG HAVING RED HAIR.

Lmao flail harder liar

The_Green_Filter

I am not straw manning you, what??

And those two Bloodflame attacks do the same thing! They wound the formless mother!

Morgott and Mohg’s “curse” is that they’re omen! That’s not an outer god’s influence, they’re omen!

And Mohg doesn’t even have red hair. Do you - do you think Promised Consort is what Mohg looks like? That’s what Radahn looks like. Miquella changed the body to look like Radahn.

But I already answered your question about Messmer. If all you’re going to do from here is fail to understand how Bloodflame or Omens work then I’m not going to waste any more time explaining it to you. Have a nice day!

Okbuturwrong

Bloodflame Talon says it's granted by Mohg, it's not accessible to just anybody but them because they carey her curse.

Why don't other Omen have Bloodflames? Because they're not cursed by the Formless Mother with Bloodflames.

Being Omen isn't actually even a curse, it's just the Crucible, the natural current of life energy that has a fun side effect of granting horns to anything that has the space for them, not just people but animals too. Guess what none of the other Hornsent have...Bloodflame.

Why did Morgott seal his? Because he's ashamed of having cursed flaming blood.

Why is it literally on fucking fire and why does it link directly to the Formless Mother if they weren't born with it? It's almost like it's a curse of flame in their blood or something from an Outer God.. like Melina and Messmer..wow...

You're trying so hard to ignore flaming blood, a direct connection to an Outer God, Mohg having red hair when his horns are shaved, and the direct lineage with Godfrey and the absence of Radagon as more than a champion in the time he was going to war with Caria...

You're ignoring so much context to make a leap in logic about Messmer's lineage over red hair and butterflies lmfao gotta love the lack of reading comprehension

The_Green_Filter

Mohg and Morgott made contact with the formless mother directly. That’s why they can use bloodflame and other omen can’t. Because they are interacting with her, specifically. Mohg himself is operating on her behalf, by choice. Nothing in the game suggests they were born with that connection to her.

Frenzied Flame is also a fire, does that mean Shabriri is related to Messmer? Obviously not.

Radagon not being around during Godfrey’s reign doesn’t mean he couldn’t be around beforehand. Especially since he’s Marika in the current day. They could’ve easily merged or diverged in the past to facilitate Messmer and Melina’s births prior to her marriage to Godfrey.

Okbuturwrong

You're pretending they made contact with her by choice instead of being born with their afflictions? Lol explain Morgott then.

Mohg does rituals leaning into his explicitly and exceptionally cursed blood but Morgott didn't he's always been for the Golden Order despite his victomhood.

Shabriri, like Midras, isn't a demigod. What a dumbass thing to level like it's on topic about demigods lmao

Nice headcanon, did you stretch it out that far all by yourself? lol there's nothing suggesting Radagon was always part of Marika, she specifically tells him he's not like her before they're together after Godfrey is exiled.

The best case scenario if they were ever originally one being before Godhood and Godfrey then where do all the curses come from? Marika wasn't cursed before the Fell God by any world context, hints or in-game descriptions so why would Radagon be if they're just a singular mortal before then? Remember Radagon had to achieve Godhood in his own right before merging with Marika, that's explicit.

Another thing to note is Godfrey is the earliest known Lord to Marika in the timeline, predating the birth of the Erdtree Melina was born under. Tell me how that happens if Radagon, a person with more connection as a rebelling slave in Limgrave than literally anything in the Land of Shadow, is secretly having children with Marika the God without Godfrey noticing?

Messmer isn't mentioned at any early point in the lore before the Golden Order is well established with Godfrey as Lord despite being an open son and commander in the era following the Fire Giant campaign that cursed Godfrey and Marika both?

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