any clue what this little guy is we got a couple dozen on the job site.(Houston, Texas)
ID Request- Location includedShe’s a black widow, Latrodectus mactans. Medically significant, be cautious around them
ETA just because I’ve had to explain it a few times: she may not look like a stereotypical black widow, but she is still a black widow. She is not a redback. Yes, there is red on her back. Black widows can have a variety of patterns on their dorsal side, especially juveniles. A widow’s appearance depends on its species, age, and sex, and there is certainly variety. Here is a link to a page that explains what widows can look like for anyone who is curious. It specifically covers western widows but this applies to other species as well, including our friend in this post. This is not meant to call anyone out, this is just to clear up confusion since she isn’t your average shiny, perfectly black spider!
Great found about a dozen of these little fellas near the entrance to an incomplete crawlspace I need to do work in. what are the chances that there will be more down there?
Good chance
Is op still alive?
slightly worse chance...
Getting worse by the hour
There hasn’t been a recorded death in the United States from a black widow envenomation since the 80’s
There hasn't been a recorded black widow death since the 80s yet
Not recorded because they haven't found the bodies
They're in the crawl space.
The Black Widows are piloting them like mechs.
Survivorship bias at work.
1880's? 1980's isn't a large enough margin for me.
I mean, there was only a 65 year gap between the Wright Brothers and the moon landing so it’s not unheard of for scientific progress to advance at an absurd rate
Envenomation???? Nice….I learned something new today.
So what you’re saying is that it’s about time for another one?
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3d
No nests.
As soon as these Lil arachnids are born, they become paratroopers.
They let out a strand of silk and float away with the breeze.
To your grandma's house.
My grandmas dead so jokes on them.
My grandma lives over the hill and through the woods. Good luck little guys
In the blankets. The thin scratchy one that has that plug like it's an electric blanket, but has never had a cord and there doesn't seem to be any heating coils inside. You know the one I'm talking about. It's standard issue Grandma gear.
But did they sign a treaty?
Recorded....key word
Thousands of people are bit per year…. (Recorded) and no deaths since the 80s.
The kill the people who look for the bodies
They are not aggressive. Unless you try to squish them with your bare hands they are fairly calm. I used to breed them for the hobby.
Considering op said they were in a crawl space he had to go into, there is a fair chance that one *could* end up squished or feeling threatened in such tight confides.
Right down the back of the shirt
I hate that I read this comment with my own eyes😭
My back is feeling suspiciously spidery now!
I do hvac where I'm under houses and crazy crawl spaces all the time. I see webs ALL the time but 98% of them are long abandoned. They don't tend to stay long. The rest I see tend to get taken out by a certain fungus that gets them.
If I had to go through a crawlspace with them I'd personally really rather not take that chance.
Sorry, little sisters, but it's you or me.
It's also not like OP will be told "No, that's alright, we can just not work down there." It's far more likely to be "Get your ass in there or I'll find someone who will."
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4d
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4d
You shouldn’t go in a deadly or dangerous crawlspace.
Unless you're Indiana Jones or Lara Croft
Its Dr. Jones
We named the dog Indiana!
I have very fond memories of that dog.
Dog? You are named after the dog?! Hahahaha-ha!!!!
No time for love, Dr. Jones.
Indy wouldn't touch this crawl space with a 10 foot pole.
Nah his thing was snakes
His old man's thing was spiders.
Indiana was the dog.
"Deadly" is kind of an over statement.
I mean not if there's many lol.
Not when there are a bunch of them. Imagine OP getting numerous spider bites. That wouldn’t be good at all.
But they’re so adorable 🥺
They don't like confrontation. They're just adorably shy
Confrontation...as in crawling through their space, for example.
Who is this guy? No, seriously, who the fuck is he?
He comes in here, into OUR crawlspace - the one we’ve webbed in, crawled around in - to do what, exactly? Cause a ruckus? We have fucking children! We got bugs to catch! And this guy is messing with our vibe.
We need to rise up. We need to stand together, fight as one, kill the killreceiver, our victim, the biting man being bitten.
Tomorrow we bring the sucker fuck down. Jeremy, hoist the marnocks. Susan, tie the tethers and await my further instructions. Carson? I can see you on the surveillance screen, get back to the height chamber.
For all we know, this man may put up a fight like we’ve never seen before. Spider. Spider spider talk spiders talking and they want to kill the man. The spiders all of them are plotting and planning to do a little ditty on him and get him real gone. The spider talk spiders talking and planning their plots in the sand on the floor of the crawlspace.
The dust is shallow, the walls are hard, the coolness runs through him, he drinks his coffee, he thinks about Marcia. His kids are at school. He ties the tie rod and grabs his jammer. Big hits and big time stuff to scan, so he wants a nice early start. He can hear dripping in the background, somewhere in the distance, something the plumber will have to fix. The shadows on the wall cast images into his thick fat skull, he bites his nails, he fights that feeling he gets, the one with the bloodrushing.
His boots are weak at the sole but still enough. His uniform is perfect leather and denim, his gloves made of both, some strange look of fascination on his face. That thing on the floor, the lump. He always wonders what it is, but he’s not allowed to touch it. “Cuss’em, ” he barely whispers to himself, “I’ll getter gone day.”.
The torch illuminates the place which makes the crawlspace in front of him look darker than ever. A gaping wallhole of yucky dust and ugly dirt all over. Boss never asked him to clean it, so he doesn’t clean it - just cleans himself off when he’s done being inside of it. I think that’s what he’s supposed to do.
He sees the spiders, plotting and planning and talking and he thinks to himself that he’d love to leave this world. Each day feels like another bit of weight added onto his shoulders, the burden of continuing to live and pay rent and ask his parents for help and feeling crushingly alone is heavy. But the kids. I mean. The kids man.
Cutsack gets the heavy one - Jendar goes berserk and slaps him silly, crest on the right zone, hillside, metal clash, big time west lake crossover. Wholly harsh to those he speaks to so he deserved it, or a yellow card even - Fucking Cutsack gets us gone like it’s smoothie butter.”
Sorry, my radio popped on for a second, had it set to automatic for the game - where was I?
Until you're walking through their webs and brushing against them in tight areas. I would hate to do it but if a tight area I have to work in is filled with medically significant spiders I'm spraying. Safety first
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4d
Befriend them and train them as your attack spiders. Who needs a dog when you have a horde of black widows that will protect you?
Google the song Black Widows in the Privy...
Hadn’t heard this song before. Loved it.
The bite can be deadly but rarely is so your statement will be untrue most likely.
However short it may be 😳
There hasn’t been a recorded/confirmed fatality due to a black widow bite in the USA in many, many years despite an average of around 2500 bites per year.
While one can still die from it, a bite is incredibly unlikely to be fatal. Peanut allergies kill and hospitalize more people yearly but we don’t call peanuts deadly…
Peanuts are medically significant.
The chances are good, the outcome is not
A really good chance.
There is a very, very good chance there are more, but here’s some extra info. Widows are very reluctant to bite and are non-aggressive spiders. They are much more likely to play dead than bite you if they feel threatened. People can live and work in areas with lots of widows and coexist with them just fine. They just need a certain level of respect. Here’s a link with more information about widows, including a section on management if you’re interested:
Yeah, they're not bad at all, just finished in the crawlspace and there were literally hundreds of them but ehh they were out of the way and not all that aggressive. I would like to point out that the workspace isn't a residential site but a commercial site, and nobody is willing to shell out the money to deal with them so I geuss we will be working with them for the next few months.
I respect the fuck out of you for “literally hundreds” of black widows not being a big deal.
Yup. Yesterday would have been my last day on the job. 😅
They're building the house for the spiders at this point.
As a former arachnophobe, crawlspaces have a way of alleviating your fear of spiders. You spend 8 hours in a 3ft tall space with no quick way out surrounded by 100 spiders and notice that they really don’t give a shit about you and it becomes pretty easy to zone them out.
I've spent most of my life around horses. To this day, to get into the hay loft, I have to steel myself and firmly remind myself they don't care about me.
Also, why do they seem to congregate their webs around the main entrance?! (Logically, it's because that's where the greatest number of flies enter from the big barn, but it sure feels personal when you're afraid of them. 😅)
That’s because horses are dicks 🤣.
I jest, i mean I still don’t “like” spiders, but exposure therapy was enough to let me allow this dude to let me handle a tarantula once, VERY briefly (i absolutely hated the experience, but still). Now at least when I find a jumpy boy, I can just chill with him and thank him for his service.
Nope
Fuck that, I'm considering quitting my job after reading that, and I work in tech
Same.
also same! dude is a savage, i would have immediately went home after seeing the 1
I'm surprised his balls werent bit, cause they huge for going into that! 🤣
Yesterday would have been the last day for that building
Mutual respect was achieved 🤘
Sometimes it just one of those things that comes with the job lol when I was working on a line crew it wasn't uncommon for us to open up an old pad mount enclosure either transformer or switch gear even some manholes and find tons of them in there, it was never once an issue because of their temperament.
Now hornets or yellow jackets on the other hand if we saw any of those little fuckers near a pole we're working on or about to pull you'd better believe we've got the spray out ready and waiting it seemed like 50% of the time if there was heavy activity within 20 ft of the pole when we pulled it, it had the nest directly on it and all hell would break loose. Those assholes are vicious.
Right? I would quit my job and never return if it were me. 😭
You would have had to run really fast to catch up with me lol 😆
Reminds me of those meme shirts floating around the internet a couple of years ago. "I'm a bomb tech, if you see me running try to keep up!" LOL PS Just for clarification my fat a** is keeping up with Usain Bolt! :)
for real because just seeing one would’ve made me turn around and be gone
It's really not that big of a deal. A study in the early 2000's found of about 2600 reported black widow bites annually none were fatal. There hasn't been an official death from a black widow bite since 1983. Add to that the fact that black widows are very docile and going into a space full of them is really not that big of a deal.
There’s plenty of worrying middle ground between “harmless” and “fatal” that I’m not willing to explore if possible
It's definitely not a fun experience, even though you'll almost certainly live. But that's true of a lot of arthropod bites/stings.
No, I get that, but that would still freak me out!
In fairness even harmless spiders freak a lot of people out.
Hundreds of black widows... whatever they are paying you, it isn't enough.
Generally, if you leave them be, they will leave you be. They will actively try to get away and do anything but bite you. If you decide to mess with them or handle them, that’s another story.
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4d
Exactly this. People saying it’s not a big deal are not taking into consideration how much hospitalization and treatment costs. I know someone who was hospitalized for weeks from a spider bite on their thigh which ended up costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Workmans comp would be involved in that case right?
Yes, but as someone who comes from a family business of workers comp, it is not that simple.
Insurance agents are paid to fight every itemized charge and may leave you with the debt that the medical office will then sue you for. You will be dragged into lengthy and bothersome responsibility litigations, and getting liability solidified before any injury saves everyone a lot of time and money (except the lawyers). And something as unique and unusual as this would have a lot of room for arguments from both sides.
Spiders don't got that kinda money. They live in a crawlspace.
Wow. I would be in full head-to-toe tyvek in that situation. I have the occasional widow near my crawlspace door and I just don't play. But tyvek suits in July aren't exactly friendly either.
How did you get in the crawlspace with those massive balls?
Dude I would have got the fuck out of there lol 100s?!?!?!
=) I also lived in an area with loads of black widows.
The danger from them is accidentally having one fall into a sleeve or down your shirt, and they start biting out of fear b/c they're getting crushed.
They're really docile, and try to run away when startled.
My biggest advice is to wear a hoodie, so none of them can fall down the back of your shirt/jacket on accident. If you can bring a duster or hand-broom to brush them away from where you're hanging out, so they can't fall on you or accidentally crawl into your boot, you'll be fine.
Can you get a picture?
of the crawlspace or the spiders.
If the spiders are in the crawl space then I assume the picture would be of both 😂
Of the 100s of widows. I generally only see one at a time, never multiple. Would be cool to see if you're able!
when i was a kid there was a pile of logs no one touched in the backyard for years. looked around with a flashlight once and there were too many black widows in there to count. only time i’ve seen a bunch together
Do you not have the right to refuse unsafe work? This is very clearly unsafe.
If anyone gets scared at any point, I would consider following the same clothing rules as hiking in an area with ticks, if possible. Like, tucking pants into socks or wearing tight, tall socks and long sleeve shirts/pants. Basically, the goal is to reduce the amount of skin availability for any possible bites
How do we know it’s really you and not thousands of spiders inside a people suit?
yeah if it was my job to get in a crawlspace with a couple of dozen widows I'd be looking for a nother job real quick, because I'm not going in there. With my luck I will get bit.
Dude I'm going to be honest with you this isn't even the worst situation I've had with a crawlspace on this job. I had to crawl into the damn place to install a sump pump because it was flooded with 18". not fun I tell you.
Did you watch Aracnaphobia as a kid too? I don’t tremble at the sight of a spider and even have a nice one that lives on my ceiling trim named Eduardo, but no way would I crawl under a house.
You know that part where they go into the attic and it's just covered?
Some lil fucker in the balcony seats tossed fake spiders all over the audience at that point. I'm still looking for my soul as it fled my body with a quickness.
Since it’s work related, you need to inform your superior and suggest they call a pest control agent, otherwise it could turn into a very expensive workman’s comp claim.
Yeah, it sounds like a liability.
When I was a kid we lived in the country, and I became very familiar with them. My bedroom, for several years, was a framed-in corner of an unfinished basement that held quite a population of spiders, including windows. It was pretty common for me to find all kinds of spiders running around or making webs in my room, and I'd catch them in jars and hang on to them for a couple weeks on a shelf next to my bed, feeding and watching them before letting go outside. Wolf and house spiders are downright violent; widows are slow, docile and sedate in comparison.
We were on a well, and a few times a year the fuse (located 8 feet down in the well itself) would need to be replaced (those old screw-in fuses). Being the only one in the family without a fear of spiders got me volunteered to do the climb down the webby hole many times. Id tape my pants outside my boots, tape my gloves outside my shirt, and cinch up my hoody, carefully make my way down, brushing away the widow webs and spiders out of my path and off the fuse box. Back up top Id get checked for spiders and change clothes.
So to answer your questions odd are high there will be more in there. If you need to do extensive work in there you might want to drop a bug bomb and wait for a day; if you just need to do a quick job dress appropriately, take your time clearing your path, and know they are completely manageable to keep away from you.
Sounds like a basement I used to have to go in to get to the panel box of a garage I rented that was just a maze of brown recluses... Shit looked like a horror movie
If you leave them alone, you will be just fine. They are not aggressive, but going into the crawl space is going to upset them and they could bite. I would be extremely careful going in there. A bite from a black widow feels a lot like a gunshot wound and you will want to get to emergency asap if they bite you. Some people just get a little sick and then they are ok, and others get a lot worse. It's best to be near a doctor if you get bit.
Near guarantee
Yes, that IS near guarantee
Take a short broom with you and push them aside. Wear long sleeves and tight clothing. They are super reluctant to bite at all and while significant, the bite is very treatable. They are pretty gentle and I don't have a problem actually picking them up and moving them out of my way.
But I also have tarantulas that would be much more miserable to be bitten by. I have had to handle a couple of those against my will. Never been bit by any spider as far as I know.
just wear gloves and bring down a flood light, widows are really really light shy and will run and hide leaving you to do your work.
Yeah we don't want to hurt spoods but when your safety is at risk sometimes there's no choice. May have to spray that tunnel
There's an asterisk there. It's unlikely to kill you and we haven't had a death from one in many years. If you are a child, elderly or have heart conditions etc then the bite can be dangerous, but in most people it just hurts, a lot. It's something like 6/10ths of a percent who experience potentially life threatening reactions to a bite. In the US poison control says we haven't had an actual black widow death since the early 80s. I know data and reporting vary, and I really don't like spiders, but the black widow is not nearly as bad as it's reputation.
They also are not super aggressive, usually only biting when they fear for their lives.
Medically significant was a really good way to phrase it, I feel like the astrix is already implied when he didn’t say “this will kill you”.
Live in Denver. We had an abandoned old warehouse converted to an office building right behind our house. The construction workers were nice enough to knock on everyone’s door on our st to tell them there was a widow infestation in the warehouse and they might want to take precautions.
Sure as shit after living here for 3 years and never seeing one, within 6 months they were almost everywhere that was undisturbed on my property…Crawl space, garage, garden, under porch. Even caught one in the middle of the day walking into my house from the front door being open.
Not sure the size or scale of your project, but if you’re seeing that many of them, it might be an infestation that will spread is all I’m trying to say.
Black widows are really common. Like… really, really common. So if you live in their habitat range with areas around your home that are conducive to them, it’s very likely there are plenty even if you’ve never seen one.
Spiders are predators and can only live where there is food to support them, so a large population of spiders is an indicator that there is an equally large population of other bugs for them to eat. It could be bugs that are relatively innocuous like roly-pollies, crickets, whatever. It could also be a lot of bugs you’d be less excited to coexist with like roaches or flies.
Anyways, yeah renovations can disturb them and cause them to move from their home but they will not be able to live somewhere that doesn’t have food for them. We have plenty around our yard and garden area. We’ve watched a few of them do their thing in the garden rocks every summer! I’ve never bothered them and I’ve never been bitten and we set pend a lot of time out there. Usual precautions like not sticking my fingers blindly in between stacked pots or rocks has been more than sufficient to coexist with our garden widows.
Spiders are predators and can only live where there is food to support them
Then what is that little spider eating that lives in the corner of my shower?
I've never seen anything in there - before or after it shows up.
I'm starting to think they might just be perverts.
They like bathrooms for the moisture, and assume other insects will seek out the moisture too. If they don’t have access to plentiful food (which usually fulfills their hydration needs), they need water more than they need food.
They may catch small, unnoticeable things like drainflys, and quickly discard the evidence. That way they can continue to go on being perverts, without alarming you that they’re killers as well. cue Psycho shower-scene music
This. Many many people get bit when they sit down in a porta potty or outhouse because of it. The person sits which rattles the web and alerts the spider to activity. New fear unlocked when my mom told me that.
My parent worked as a nurse and briefly did a stint in the ER. A construction worker sat down in a portable potty and a black widow bit the dude’s testicle.
I think about that story every single time I see a porta potty.
Never using a port a potty again.
Ya know, yours could have the only life scarred by your terrible parent.
This is yet another excellent reason to hover rather than sit.
This is another excellent reason to risk shitting yourself instead of using one that might have surprise spooders
I had a coworker get a testicle removed due to being bit in a porta potty on his testicle by a brown recluse. Your welcome for making you never wanna go in one again, it’s been 6 years since it happened and 6 years since I sat in a porta potty LMAO
8 limbs/hands is 8x the pleasure!?
This comment gets worse when you remember that spider limbs are controlled by blood pressure.
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4d
So when you say seek medical attention, can you just go to your normal doctor or outpatient or is it a visit to the hospital?
When I was bit I went to my normal doctor, he told me there was nothing he could really do and sent me on to the hospital
You only need to seek medical attention if you can't manage the symptoms at home, in which case the best place to go would be an ER. The most common symptom is pain, so if its becoming too painful to manage yourself or you feel like it's getting worse, then a trip to the ER will land you with some stronger pain meds, and perhaps some treatment for the underlying cause of the pain, such as the muscle spasms.
No touchy
Little touchy?
NO TOUCHY
Gentle pet? Little snuggle?
Zero. Touchy.
one touchy 👉 🕷
if you zoom in hard enough; The EYES. Satisfyingly creepy, yet cool, in a horrifying manner.
Having owned widows, they really want nothing to do with you. I know they are scary, but they will run or hide before biting. They are not aggressors. Now, if you’re trying to squish them you have a problem.
Thanks OP for your curiosity and respect for these mothers out there.
Why did you own them?
Collector/hobbyist mainly. I’m an animal lover and one can only own so many hamsters, birds, buns, etc… before it gets tiring and you want to try something new. For me, I particularly enjoyed the hobby of making their habitat 110% mirror their natural habitat. I built everything custom for every little critter I had.
So you have a small zoo
I used to! Unfortunately I’ve gotten old… I’m down to just a dog now, a Chinese Crested.
A menagerie, if you will
Hamsters are the gateway drug to Black Widows
That’s cool. Any chance you have pics of the set up?
99.9% of all Spiders/Tarantulas. I always say they aren’t aggressive but defensive.
But I agree with everyone here take a photo of them respect them. They’re beautiful.
Not only is it a Black widow, but a massive one at that. And u said you saw a dozen in the entryway to the crawl space alone? Expect many more deeper inside, and while it is true they would rather run away than bite, getting in there and stirring shit up by working is a good way to catch those fangs, you may kneel on one, rest on one, they could end up between your fingers lots of risk. If you absolutely have to go in, I'd go in wearing tough leather chaps, a leather jacket and gloves, some sort of Kanvas and net mask/ head covering and tape all the cuffs shut.
As wonderful as this advice is that might be as big of a death sentence as just getting in the crawl space with these widows during this time of year in Texas.
Is that where OP is? I must've skipped that part. Yeah heat stroke is a risk too if working more than like 15 mins at a time in there in all that gear.
A black widow bite is hardly a death sentence for a healthy adult. You might feel like shit for a while, but it's highly unlikely you'll die.
How much Is the er/hospital visit gonna cost?
What about 10-20 widow bites because you messed up their nest?
They don't have a nest, they're solitary. Now, there might well be 10-20 widows all living there and they'll still bite you...
But it's important to understand spider society!
Oh that's just Jeff.
OP you know exactly what this is lol
Black widow 🕷️
I thought they need to have an hour glass or something similar to be a widow. I saw something like this but they had orange spots and a line in the front. Thought it was a false widow.
The hourglass is on the underside of the abdomen. The backside markings shown here tend to fade as they age. There might also be some differences depending on sex.
Major differences! Males are almost never fully black, nor are they as medically significant as their female counterparts. And they're much smaller. They're actually small enough that their fangs have a hard time piercing human skin, and when they do pierce skin, they leave little more than a red welt.
And they taste different if you lick them
There are several varieties and markings.
Seriously? Oh man
The patterns are diff based on male/female too!
A young female. Her hourglass is on her belly, not her back
Not the little guy you want on your bedroom
I’m also in Houston. The plant I’m at is crawling with brown widows who, if I’m not mistaken, are less medically significant but still nothing to play around with. They’re less likely to bite, but you never know.
I had a bunch of lawn ornaments in my car that hatched baby brown widows overnight. I had to get a stick and clear the driver's seat so I could get to a car wash with a vacuum lol
Osha told me to tell you long as you correctly labeled and applied your lock out tag outs they'll respect that and get out your way. Now get in the hole right fucking now mister
Western widow.
Latrodectus variolus. Beautiful Black Widow. 🤩
ohhh beautiful
she’s a beaut
That is a black independent spider who don’t need no man, after killing off the man she needed of course.
Black Widow
Take cation
And also take anions
Just want to inform people that Black Widows really don't deserve their reputation. They very rarely bite and there hasn't been an official death from one in the U.S. since 1983 despite about 2500 reported bites annually. You're more likely to die from being bitten by a fox than a black widow.
Black widow. I live in south GA and we only have like 2 ‘dangerous’ spiders here that we need to watch out for…. This is one of them. They are docile for the most part. And will not go out of their way to bite you. Most bites occur because people don’t see them and accidentally touch them. There is 100% more of them in that crawl space. They love dark undisturbed areas. If one bites you, you’ll probably be okay. You’ll be HELLA uncomfortable, and may need medical treatment depending on your body’s reaction. But No one has died from a black widow bite in a long time.
I would be concerned with that crawlspace potentially having many of them. One bite probably isn’t deadly. But many bites absolutely could be.
I put one of these in a mason jar with a lizard as a kid. About an hour later, lizard was dead. I’ve been terrified of them since.
Black widow female, sometimes they have more red on their back like this beauty does, most are usually fully black except their underbelly or have very small red spots on their back, they are medically significant but its almost impossible to get one to bite as they are very shy and will usually curl into a bawl when touched, their fangs are very small and actually struggle a little to break skin, the only real chance of being bitten is if you accidentally brush their webs (which are insanely strong) and they mistake your hand for prey but you'll likely notice you're touching their web die to the strength of the silk.
“They’re more afraid of you then you are of them “ you got this .
Is that scarlet johansen?
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General Widow information including managing Widow populations in/around the house or garden (Habitat, egg sacs, IDing, Bites, etc):
https://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74149.html
How to ID and distinguish Brown Widows from Black Widows:
https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/how-identify-brown-widow-spiders
Widow spiders are very reluctant to bite:
https://spiderbytes.org/2014/02/14/what-happens-when-you-poke-prod-and-pinch-black-widow-spiders-you-might-be-surprised/
Black Widow bite toxicity (Diagnosis, symptoms, prognosis, treatment etc):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499987/
(Authors: ----__--__----)(Contributors: dfj3xxx)