Hoping someone on reddit can help!
I live in a duplex house in Western Australia and my neighbour in the other half of the house has welcomed 10-15 people to live in the tiny 2x1 house. He’s enclosed the patio and built a little granny flat in his backyard.
There are numerous cars outside and the noises from the house are causing a disturbance.
Are there any rules in WA governing maximum number of occupants in a house which is NOT rented?
It’s a duplex so just me and the other owner. Strata would’ve been a good solution but unfortunately not in this case :/
If you’re a duplex you’d likely be under something called a Survey Strata Title. (I’m one of these types of set ups myself).
Whilst you operate as two seperate homes, a Survey Strata actually means you can enter your neighbours non-dwelling part of the property (and vice versa) at any time. More importantly they ~must~ have your permission to have built that Granny Flat.
Get the council involved. You won’t likely be friends after this, to be honest, but they’ve built something without your permission that will potentially affect your part of the Duplex for future sale. Number of people living there aside, this is something that needs rectifying.
You've made some dangerous assumptions in this comment and mixed up a couple of points.
Survey strata means they CAN build on their lot without permission from the other lot owners. These operate similarly to how freehold works.
Built Strata is where you CANNOT build as anything outside of your walls typically falls under common property.
Ultimately without seeing their strata plan its hard to know which it would be. There is a lot of nuance with Strata including by-laws which may have been implemented at the time of the strata being developed or anytime after. Not to mention the laws have changed over the decades and the time the strata was developed could also impact the laws which apply.
If @OP is going to use Strata rules it would be very wise to firstly check the plan and work out exactly what rules apply to them. This guide may be of use once a plan has been viewed: https://www.landgate.wa.gov.au/siteassets/documents/strata-and-community-titles/strata-titles/strata-information-guides/guide_to_strata_titles.pdf
P.s
Not all survey stratas are like this. Only ones on old titles tend to have the yard space as common property.
The old ones were built strata. Survey Strata only came into the act in 1995.
Good point! Built Strata is another name for this set up.
We’ve fenced our properties so each has half the front and back yards. I don’t mind if he builds on his half it’s just the noise and constant cars going in and out.
Built Strata and Survey strata are two different things. What you are describing is Built strata in which everything outside the buildings walls is considered common property, however is often allocated for exclusive use on the strata plan.
No planning approval required for granny flats of a maximum of 70sqm anymore. I doubt that many people should be living in one house though
Except the part where then they know its you. If it's council it could be anybody
Get the council on it
Might find out there's some illegal additions to it...
Yep, have to find a way to do it without them finding out it was me
You can report on an anonymous basis. If they approach you just say "No it wasn't me, but given the amount of people and cars going in and out I'm not surprised".
Ah, the "Shaggy" https://youtu.be/JZu8htRfaPI?si=Cg8pFJGyrXW85yLf defence. Love it. I have an older colleague who gets up to mischief and her nickname is "Shaggy" for always being in denial.
Mos councils do aerial photography on a regular basis.
Yep. “We never had a tree” Council: “Really footage from blah shows a treel
Councils use drones to do regular backyard inspections these days, rather than paying for aerial flights to ensure folks aren't building unapproved sheds/dwellings etc.
You'll be fine. Go ahead and report it.
Nearmaps also provides aerial imagery - regularly updated around perth too
Yeah forgot about those guys. My solar quote had their water mark on it which surprised me.
Councils would only be using drones for massive rural properties for things like fire break inspections not for residential properties....
Mate in the next suburb got a letter from Wanneroo council about their pool. It was a large inflatable from kmart that they kept up for a few weeks during summer holidays.
The aerial maps are updated roughly once a month and unless their com0liance team is bored it is generally a neighbour complaining
Belmont Council was using them for a bit, I may have wrongly assumed they all were because of this.
You are not allowed to fly drones over people, you should report the council.
Not true. Many councils use NearMaps which use drones frequently to take updated aerial photographs.
If there’s 6 or more unrelated persons in a house it’s no longer a house and becomes a “residential building”.
There are different planning and building regulations for “residential buildings”
Dob them into your Local Government and suggest the above wording and they’ll investigate it.
It has recently changed to 7 people, but yes, you are correct. Also OP call the health department of your council to investigate, a two bedroom house is not suitable for that many people.
What legislation do you think health would have to take action? Codes state 6 or more unrelated people. How is the council going to prove they are unrelated?
I am not familiar with the health act if i am being honest, but overcrowding would be a problem and generally if there is a complaint on the property, they can investigate and take action if required.
Edit: also the 7 people unrelated to each other that i was quoting is also stated under the state planning policy. However, if an application comes in for a single dwelling but it has 10 bedroom, 10 bathrooms and it looks like lets say student accommodation then the assessor will be asking some questions before approving the application.
Sorry I don't check reddit replies often enough.
Your edit makes assumptions that the people lodging that application doesn't know the wording to put on applications to not get questions asked.
It also amazes me that people are worried about overcrowding in a house when it doesnt affect them. Where would you suggest the extra people get moved to?
Also to address the house being used for students. How would you prove they have no family relationship to each other?
If there’s 6 or more unrelated persons
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume they're all related and are from a certain background where multigenerational cohabitation is the norm.
I'm sure they've bought the required amount of fire extinguishers.
And toilets.
Yes, a house that is inhabited permanently by seven or more persons, who do not comprise a single family changes land use to a Residential Building.
A residential building will nearly always require Planning Approval from the relevant Local Government. Additionally there are specific BCA requirements that may kick in that would not be required for a Single House/Grouped Dwelling.
Maximum occupants in a house
There's a house near me that's a rental. Based on the number of taxies and cars with uber/ola stickers on them parked in the yard and surrounding street I reckon there's at least 15 guys living there.
Let me guess.... They are all cousins!
Maddington? Sounds like my friend’s new neighbours.
Tell him to get used to groups of 5 or 6 guys standing on the verge chatting for ages.
She is already experiencing this.
I don't know what they talk about but they seem to thing street gatherings at all ours is better than going inside your house.
Then they come home at 3am and sit outside and chat shit loudly. Not caring about any one else
Wow! Where?
Cannington.
I can understand people are trying to find ways to make some extra cash but that's just taking the piss
My sister had something similar, there was a council law that stated no more than 6 people in a home unless they were immediate family
Sounds like his family is homeless and he’s protecting them, I had to do the same thing for my husbands family from 2019-2023(with breaks here and there), it’s not fun but better than worrying about them getting robbed or assaulted on the streets, having to offer body for board and their kids missing school/seeing bad shit.
Potentially unpopular opinion but if you’re not currently moving and the noises aren’t over the top in this current rental market just let them be, is your comfort really worth more than a roof over these people’s heads??
Wanna bet 8-10 of them are supposedly here on student visas but they are working 60 hours a week each doing Uber and food delivery service, and aren't actually studying at all?
They are actually Caucasian. I know the houses you’re talking about but this is more crack house than an Uber depot.
What makes you think they aren't studying? I know a couple of international students that work really hard here to pay for their living expenses and education while getting a degree.
Most international students study while working their arse off.
I don't know where people get this idea that they don't study.
I think the stereotype may stem from a Curtin Uni scandal 10ish yrs ago where there were people selling student visas to international "students" who came here to work
it comes from the ‘ghost universities’ all around perth that exist for international students but don’t actually teach anything
I had neighbours doing that. Maybe half working night shift, so there were only 2 cars parked on the front verge most times.
When this rort gets fully exposed, it's going to badly hinder multiple industries, and result in tens of thousands of deportations. I worked at a casino and I would see between 2 and 4 drivers in the same taxi over a week, at all hours of the day. Only one of them had a taxi operators license, and often they couldn't even produce a driver's license when asked. We would call the cops on at least 2 taxis a night with a random driver in it who shouldn't have been there.
It's a WAY bigger problem than everyone knows. When it comes to a head, it's going to be catastrophic.
You're posting in r/perth.. There's only one casino here. Do you mean Crown?
It's as if people can never work or live in other cities in your mind, right? Weird.
As you know, buddy, we are talking about Perth in a Perth subreddit. I'm just wondering. I'm not trying to set you off. There's some tissues in the back of my Uber if you need them.
It's been happening since at least 30 years
Your through to the next round.
This is the majority of these types of houses for sure
Did your uber eats employee application get rejected. You sound hurt.
I work full time in a field I studied in, and live with my wife and child in a three bedroom home, both of whom also work full time in their chosen fields. What an odd conclusion to draw that I might be 'hurt'. If you were hoping to bait me it just made you look really silly.
You both look like losers
Nothing at all , have the exact same situation in Bayswater council house on one side has about 10 people living in it and 6 cars on the verge constantly …. Council will do nothing useless mother fuckers .
Lodged email complaint with the council building department for illegal structures is your best bet to get some action , What council area by the way ?
A few years ago , we had a family move in with six children, then their children had partners moved in, 4/2.
The council explained, two people per room was fine.
We sold up. Screaming, crying and fighting, and that was the adults.
Were they renting or did they purchase?
Renting
I’m surprised you sold up, assuming you owned the home you were living in and moved because of the renting neighbours. Unless you didn’t plan on staying long term. You could have got them evicted.
Yeah they are fucking bullshitting. No same person would do that.
Huh. And the owners didn't have an issue with it?
Sounds like a crackhead house
If not this what should people do I the housing crisis?
The thing is, whether op rents or owns, op is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of their property. If their neighbour is acting unreasonably, then op is perfectly within their rights to seek a resolution to the situation.
Yes, but NIMBY
Edit: For all the voters in the popularity contest, where else are they going to live? Send them out into the rental market to out bid everyone else?
It must be a real privilege to have 10 ten people homeless because they make too much noise opening and closing car doors.
Not wanting 15 people squeezed into a duplex is not NIMBYism ffs.
Yes it is. Everyone says "we need to solve the housing crisis and people off the streets." This is one practical solution these people have made in the current circumstances.
But no, they can't do that because it breaks a rule that was set when people could get a property at reasonable prices.
It's just noisy too!
Where else are they going to go? Ah but that's not OPs problem. As long as they aren't near them.
That's a very nice speech, but it's still not NIMBYism.
Would you want 10-15 extra cars dominating parking on your street or not be a NIMBY
If it wasn't blocking my access to my parking, I wouldn't care. The housing crisis won't last forever, and the current rules were written before things went to shit.
Everyone is just going to have to suck it up until supply catches up to demand.
Lol the supply is not going to catch up to demand ever. We have less tradies then ever and major builders collapsing into liquidation
Just report to council. They will hand it to authorities. 5 houses down from a friend, cops went in to see the matter cause of multiple cars and people kept entering the house and they found a criminal in there and a illegal immigrant as well a other things not sure what
Have you tried googling it?
https://www.stirlingclark.com.au/2023/03/how-many-people-can-live-in-your-rental-property/
I assume the law is similar even if you own a house which means they are way over.
The trouble is, I don’t think there’s a law which speaks to maximum occupants in an owner occupied home
I remember ages ago reading the R code legislation when I was considering an extension. There are quite a few places in there that state a maximum number of people depending on weird things, like only 6 people per oven and cooktop. I think council will be the people to contact in regards to this. They'll eventually get an inspector out there.
Yes there is. Talk to your council. Overcrowding is covered in health and safety legislation. Doesn't matter if rented or owned. Irrelevant. Overcrowding is a health issue.
There is actually, it's usually in the council bylaws and it's to do with number of unrelated occupants/running an unregistered boarding/lodging house.
Here is the town of Vic Park info for example
https://www.victoriapark.wa.gov.au/business/apply/business-permits-and-approvals/lodging-houses.aspx
Except that information is wrong.
As a general rule unless a website ends in .gov assume it's incorrect.
EDIT: To clarify the above: The biggest issue will be the building additions and modifications. They're not allowed to have people sleeping in "not habitable" rooms or sheds/garages. So it's conceivable that the enclosed patio, the "granny flat", and any enclosed garage, are not habitable. However if they were done correctly, to code, and they have or get council approval, then they would be.
Subject to that, the actual law is pretty "generous." You can sleep in lounge rooms, family rooms, sun rooms, even the damn kitchen. About the only things excluded are your wet rooms and any passages. Plus the allowance needed is actually quite low. For an average family it's around 4~5sqm per person, which isn't a lot.
Number 1 is incorrect. There is a maximum number of people allowed to reside in a house. The Council's Environmental Health Officer will enforce this under the Health Act.
What this person says is correct
This is an example for the local government health law that will be enforceable by the Environmental Health Officer. You can access it on your local government's website. It should be similar to this example.
3.4 Overcrowding
The owner or occupier of a house shall not permit - (a) a room in the house that is not a habitable room to be used for sleeping purposes; or (b) a habitable room in the house to be used for sleeping purposes unless- (i) for every person over the age of 10 years using the room there is at least 14 cubic metres of air space per person; and (ii) for every person between the ages of 1 and 10 years there is at least 8 cubic metres of air space per person; or (c) any garage or shed to be used for sleeping purposes.
3.5 Calculation of Sufficient Space For the purpose of section 3.4, in calculating the space required for each person - (a) each room shall be considered separately and sufficient space shall be allowed in each room for the number of persons present in the room at any one time; and (b) a deduction shall be made for the space occupied by furniture, fittings and projections of the walls into a room.
I've changed it to say "mostly irrelevant" which it is.
The health act is actually pretty lax. The biggest problem under the health act, is that you're allowed to use any habitable room, not just bedrooms. So when you crunch the numbers, you can actually cram a lot of people in there.
If the council cannot help they'll tell you who can.
It definitely is a pain being this situation and your frustration is completely valid.
But have you tried talking to the neighbour? More than often, if you talk and convey it to them that their nusicince is causing you grief and disturbance, people do end up understanding and rectify the problem. Often, people/neighbours aren't aware their actions are having an adverse affect on people next door.
Maximum 6 unrelated people
Reddit: all the migrants taking our jobs and houses makeing me homeless
Also Reddit: all the migrants house sharing is pissing me off
Yep.
I just can't do this sub anymore. It makes me feel ashamed.
How is the front of the duplex setup? Do you have a common driveway or separate? If it’s common without fencing down the middle, oh man, that would be a type of Worst Neighbour to have, if they come and go alot.
This might be an issue to take up with the AFP or Border Force. Could be linked to some sort of slavery.
The maximum occupancy for what you call a duplex (referred to as a grouped dwelling in planning terms) is 7 unrelated persons. Any more than that and it is no longer meeting the definition of a grouped dwelling and as such is contravening the approved land use of the property.
You should contact your local council’s compliance team and make a complaint. They can investigate the property and conduct a site visit to confirm the number of persons residing there. If there are too many people living there, the council should contact the landowner via letter and advise them they are in breach of planning legislation and are to reduce the occupancy of the property, otherwise risking fines or if they continue to breach this order; legal action.
The granny flat might not have council approval. I would approach local council
Calling in the authorities has a downside of maybe making 10 people homeless, can’t you just warn him his tenants need to be quiet and not cause a disturbance?
You could sell the house.
This wouldn't happen to be in the cannington/Queens park area ?
I think that's where a lot of migrants are hunkering down at.
Try calling the fire department (non emergency). Too many people, and they can't all get out in an emergency.
Ehhhh this is too excessive. Contacting the council is better.
No, I mean you can call their non-emergency line and ask how many occupants are too many. I think it comes under some fire code.
I'm definitely not saying call an emergency.
You're about to ruin that guys life lol
Honestly, the owner is great. A very nice guy and we’ve always been respectful with each other.
The trouble is he’s invited his whole family tree. Children, grand children, nieces, nephews and the partners of all those people!
The best way I’d describe the environment is crack house.
If he's cool maybe try have a chat with him to understand the situation a bit better first? If you have to complain then do that last. He could have some family emergency or maybe just paying his mortgage for free and making a profit as well. Which shouldn't bother you if it was only a few people but 10-15 in a duplex sounds a bit crazy haha
Yep! The trouble is if he doesn’t agree when asked nicely he’ll know that I was the one who complained to council.
He’s a nice bloke but could turn feral in a heart beat.
First day after I bought the house I walked over to say hi and he was shooting an automatic BB gun into the street and nearly hit me 😂
Best to just go to the council.
Heck, if the council has a brochure or something on maximum occupancy, get 30 of them and spam every letterbox around the property, including theirs and yours (or have a task-gigger from out of the area do it). Then contact the council regarding the issue. If the neighbour brings it up, say "Yeah, I got one of those too, I think. Haven't had time to read it yet. Some council thing?"
that would have been horrifying... in school someone just pointed a (a realistic looking) BB gun at me and I'm normally 100% against telling on people but I went and dobbed them in
Yep we thought that explained the bargain on the house 😂 he had to hand them back in as they were banned a couple of months later
Hate to break it to you but he’s not a nice bloke
doesn't sound like a crack house mate.
What do you expect from reddit? Isn’t it obvious you have to go to council?
JAI HIND
Wtf?
there’s no limit on how many people can live in a normal house.
However there might be rules around the granny flat, and around the parking situation - like parking on verges etc.
You can also sue the occupants for creating a nuisance if it’s not reasonable.
None of this is even vaguely correct.
Maybe contact council.
If you're in a duplex there might be some strata issues