I joined this Reddit because of the interesting stories. Living in the UK these hegemonies are new to me.
I can imagine everyone thought it was a nice idea to create HOA, so everyone could be neighbourly...but all power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Is it true that you guys can't simply leave these organisations???
How did the USA, the land of the free, get themselves into such a mess
One guy doesn't mean every guy. We can find assholes in every race.
Not "one guy", the literal father of American suburbia.
How can one person single-handedly cause so much damage to a society?
May I introduce you to a podcast called Behind the Bastards? Is literally all about these people in history, and modern times.
Awesome. Thanks for the recommendation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.
Inventor of CFC and leaded gas. There are a lot of people who do a LOT of damage.
Well, it was a good thing at the time. We had a huge growth in population, and inadequate housing to deal with it. Levittowns were a solution, and an improvement over previous housing in the US. Before then, average Americans basically had to choose between either cohabiting with a bunch of relatives, or moving to the city and living in a really bad area (cities were still really messed up back then-slums were still much more common than today, and the horrors of depression-era slumlords were still fresh to many people.)
The racism is inexcusable (read about redlining too btw), but the growth of suburbia was a positive at the time.
So basically what gen X should expect, living with relatives or living in a densely populated and run down area.
The same guy who invented leaded gasoline also came up with CFCs. Literally the most destructive single being in the history of the Earth. One person at the right place, at the right time, with the right skills or idea can very much change history.
That "one guy" created the 1st HOAs which where incredibly popular. Due to that popularity he went on to build scores of HOA in nearly a dozen states. His template was specifically enoucraged in southern states where white home buyers were upset that post war Blacks were specifically included in federal home load programs.
Unfortunately, there were more then enough "assholes" to go around.
While we can find assholes of all stripes, immediately after WWII you’d be hard pressed to find an asshole of any other race who could purchase 4,000 acres of land, develop it, and keep all other races out.
Your argument lacks historical context and reeks of bigotry.
Look up south aftica and what's happening to white farmers. ALL races and age groups have assholes and racists. Every race has been the target of racism. One race isn't more suffering than another.
Look up South Africa and see what happened before that
So what? Look up other countries in Africa and see who the slave owners were.
That has nothing to do with the formation of HOAs in the United States. Stay on topic, or take your fragility elsewhere.
It was not at all comparable to chattel slavery in the Americas
They were originally intended to keep the unseemingly pigmented folks out of the neighborhood.
Perhaps you mean unsightly?
Half of one, six dozen of the other.
Thanks, Trixie.
Unseemly.
No, the racist pricks who started HOAs almost certainly would have used unseemingly.
The eyesores.
I would think “unseemly” in this context.
Much like everything in America.... Racism/xenophobia is to blame.
How is it racist when it's usually blue collar guys tha are most affected? Take your bullshit and swallow it.
Much like your own comment they were formed to keep brown people out. Can people of color not be blue collar? The earliest HOA bylaws very explicitly banned non whites and even non Christians. Don't like the history tough shit.
And then as soon as laws were passed to ban racial discrimination in mortgage lending, credit scores were invented!
Do you actually have a source on that? Because as far as I know HOAs don’t dictate who can or can’t move into a neighborhood. Open to new info though.
Edit: plenty of good info below - thanks all!
They are the product of deed restrictions being unconstitutional.
The white flight from the cities to the suburbs was in part because deed restrictions kept POC from buying.
When that was ruled unconstitutional, HOA grew as a way to keep poor and undesirables from being able to live there. (think work trucks, blue collar)
These are not my views. Just history
Ahh that’s interesting. Thanks.
White flight always intrigued me on the name. I know we called it “white flight” but it’s really money flight. You can’t honestly say that if you had an inner city situation and you gave parents who are a POC say 500k that they would stay in the inner city situation. No. They would find a quiet little suburb and move away to better school, somewhere with a yard that was safe, etc. It’s money flight. And can you really blame (especially parents) people for making money and moving somewhere they feel is safer and better for their family?
Lots to unpack here in your response.
Money was able to leave because of restrictions against POC.
So money is racism and classism.
And given the historic context you can’t uncouple that for a “esoteric” conversation
Your hypothetical isn’t what occurred.
Pointless to discuss that supposition.
In today’s society anyone or any race can move anywhere. We aren’t talking hundreds of years ago. We are talking about the here and now.
Literally this was the less than 60 years ago.
This ain’t an antiquated study about feudal times.
60 years ago is ancient in time considering America is so young. We are talking about the here and now. 2024. Not 1950. It’s not white flight now. It’s money flight.
Dude. Moved the goal posts. My reply was in HOW the HOA culture came about.
And if you think that generational wealth isn’t part of an issue, then you are being deliberately obtuse at best and more likely disingenuous.
White peoples parents were able to love to the suburbs. That pulled fucking for schools to the burbs. That impacts the next several generations.
Quite literally POC have living grandparents that couldn’t move to a “better area” when they were starting their families.
You can’t take a slice of 2024 and say the 60 years leading up to this situation is ancient times. There is a direct correlation and causation.
And my comment was about the here and now and how we still claim white flight when it’s money flight.
Remember, rules don't have to be applied uniformly. They can be applied only to members you don't like.
That’s true.
It's illegal to fire someone because of their race or health conditions..... Perfectly legal in most states to fire someone with no reason given.
Not a great analogy because you can’t explicitly kick someone out of their house for no reason. I get your point though.
You can if you put a lien on it because their grass is consistently cut a quarter inch too long.
Umm 🤨 not really. Many states have thresholds or stipulations on liens and need to be approved by a judge.
Which would be a “reason.”
A cop who decides to follow you is going to find something to pull you over for. Similarly, a HOA who decides "fuck that resident in particular" is going to find something to fine. Even the most rule abiding people make mistakes. Their foot gets a little heavy while they're watching the other lane for an opportunity to merge, or miss one of their child's toys when cleaning up the yard.
Reasons are manufactured all the time.
I agree lol, just saying the analogy wasn’t great.
An HOA can fine someone until they can legally take their house due to lack of payments of fines. HOA's have crazy powers in some places.
Luckily mine is only $50/month and exists to cover road snow plowing.
That’s the way it should be. HOAs should only exist to take care of common areas. Unfortunately, where we live, HOAs seem to be a requirement for any new developments.
Shouldn't the city do that? Sorry, where I live that kind of stuff is done by the city. Luckily I've never had an HOA so that seems odd to me.
Where I live, we take care of the roads ourselves. No HOA, just neighbors with equipment helping neighbors. I sent a diesel bill to the county as a joke and they sent me a check and a thank you.
The roads in my neighborhood are considered private. The city does most roads.
If the developer builds private roads in the community, then they are just that. Private. The owners then have to maintain them. Sidewalks, too.
...but that's communism!
Sure you can. No job = no income. No income= no housing. They use property taxes, liens, fines, fees, etc to legally harass people into moving. The whole conversation is about legally protected racism/ discrimination.
If they fine one person and they have proof they didn't fine another for the same thing you have a lawsuit that could get everyone off the HOA "comittee" and you can use that to get rid of the HOA.
It goes back frozen that, they were started right at the early part of the 1900s in St Louis Missouri. Oddly, most people don't realize this, but Missouri is one of the most racist states in the country with a huge history of racism. Look up why St Louis city is not in any county, not even inside St Louis county. They separated just before the civil war into two municipal factions
HOAs long predate the 1960s, and were created to maintain uniform character of the properties from the outset. Though racial covenants were one aspect of them. But a lot of people imply that they were altogether invented primarily for that specific dedicated purpose, and that just isn't true.
Look up “racial covenants” and deed restrictions.
John Oliver on Last Week Tonight talked about a few examples last year when discussing how awful HOAs are. Whole video is worth a watch if you have the time.
I'm generalizing what he says, but an HOA wanted to bar anyone from renting a house that relied on government financial/housing support. The impacted group that could no longer rent was predominantly black renters (93%). :/
I’d rather watch the history of Chuck E Cheese
The thing is, that the racist boomers on the HOA board are in charge of enforcing the HOA's rules, and often do so unevenly. They ignore infractions from people they like and find anything they can to fine the people they don't. I can imagine very easily a nice black family moving into an HOA neighborhood in the 70's and getting constantly hassled and fined by the board for BS infractions, and unless you're willing to pay the legal fees to take them to court with a lawsuit (and that's not even close to a guarenteed resolution) there is nothing you can do about the abuse of power.
Surprisingly, I read about the origination of HOAs in America in a biography of the black rock and roll guitarist Chuck Berry. They were started in his hometown of St Louis Missouri, as somebody said, as a way to keep black people from moving into the neighborhoods. And back then they did indeed have restrictions on whom houses could be sold to
❤️ Chuck Berry! Was it a good book?
I would also like to recommend the video documentary, hail hail rock and roll which is also about Chuck Berry.
Yes
I got to see Chuck Berry in concert many many moons ago. Really cool guy and incredibly talented.
Ditto. Last thing fun I did before I sold my home and left St Louis for good
Covenant restrictions were created to prevent POC from buying into neighborhoods, because as soon as someone did, property values would plummet as everyone raced to move out.
The first POC family to move in would often face violent confrontations.
Just google the history of HOAs and redlining
They ABSOLUTELY did dictate what color of people could move into them. The covenants routinely excluded people based on their skin color.Shelley v. Kraemer
U.S. Supreme Court. In its 1948 Shelley v. Kraemer decision, justices ruled unanimously in favor of the Shelleys, writing that restrictive covenants couldn’t be legally enforced by state or federal courts because such discriminatory governmental action violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. However, the ruling also acknowledged that these covenants, as private agreements, were not in and of themselves a constitutional violation, and could continue to be used to exclude people from occupying or purchasing real estate on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
They came about the same time as redlining. Here is a good podcast that explains it.
Your own source does not even support your original claim. Nice try tho.
Restrictive covenants don't mean anything to you, eh?
Absolutely. It however does not explicitly mean "keep pigmented people out".
Without seeing exactly what said restrictive covenants were, it's impossible to judge. Also, the Levittown example predates the HOA.
When HOAs were invented the KKK still existed and did shithead things with no consequences. Anyone who was even considering selling their home to a black\jew family would almost certainly wake up to a cross burning in their yard.
The KKK still exists now.
They don't get to commit crimes with impunity the way they used to though. And they damn sure don't advertise their presence publicly.
Damn, you missed the news about 3.5 years ago, as well as the last 7 years. The kkk has picked up steam. Mostly by rolling in with the nazi factions, and becoming either the Q cult, or the DJT cult (honestly, same thing).
They just were given more "acceptable" outlets for their hate
There are no acceptable outlets for their hate that doesn't end their own lives. I remember when the Klan had their last public rally in my part of the Southeast back in the 80s. They got run out of town and told not to come back. Never heard from them publicly in our area again, but I do know they continued meeting in private. The actual establishment itself has effectively been dismantled to the point of having no teeth. Yes, the mantle of hate has been picked up by other groups and I'm aware of that, but for the most part they aren't anywhere near as overt and public as the Klan was 40+ years ago. There will always be outliers and malcontents in every society, we're never going to get away from that until our AI overlords drug us all and put us into pods that harvest our energy to keep them alive. 😂
Yes, look at most states laws and you'll see laws that were passed to force those bylaws to be unenforceable and illegal... also made provisions for them to be removed without a vote so they didn't remain in the paperwork... though they still exist in some areas. Weather they were made just for that might be able to be argued maybe but those rules have been there since the first HOAs.
They don't have one because they're isn't one. After they were created some targeted minorities, not unlike the police and frankly most enforcement agencies. But they were not created for that purpose.
Like SO MUCH that is rotting America now, it’s rooted in racism. The sprawling suburbanization, the lack of public transit, the disinvestment in public schooling, the ghettoization of the inner city, the still ongoing backlash against Obama. The destruction wrought by hatred of black people has come home to roost in so many ways big and small
This is just not accurate.
Folks, this is what we call "Race Baiting" and it is disgusting behavior because it causes real racism to be downplayed and not taken seriously.
The amount of people that just state “this is not accurate” and believe it is an argument baffles me. Several people have given a myriad of links that would directly show you it is accurate in under a minute. The internet is an amazing thing.
Did my comment say that HOAs were not used in racist ways? Absolutely not. Of course they have been. But this wasn't the original intention.
Yes, I agree, do a little research and also be sure to read what was said without putting words in people's mouths at the same time.
The first HOA did not sell houses to African Americans. By 1953, it was the largest community (70,000) that included 0 black residents.
“Originally, the Levitts’ racist policy was enshrined in the lease itself, which stipulated that “the tenant agrees not to permit the premises to be sued or occupied by any person other than members of the Caucasian race.”
So yes. Seeing as the very first HOA had explicit rules selling to anyone but the Caucasian race, yes it was the original intent.
Actually it is... HOAs started out as a way to be racist without being overt about it.
No, they didn't, they were originally created for local residences to support common areas and restrict land usage in ways people found annoying. On occasion they also targeted minorities after they were already created, but jesus not every bad thing that has ever happened is because of racism.
It won't, but it will make you look like an uneducated idiot.
If Clarkson’s Farm is any indication of typical UK town councils, HOAs aren’t really far removed from that.
Clearly you’re not familiar with US farming regulations. They are extensive.
I’ll flip and note that UK village councils have similar power to HOA’s.
I think that most towns and cities can be excessively burdensome if the citizens allow them. HOAs can be decommissioned, but it is very hard to do so. It might be better to cut the power artery they live from through local and state regulations.
They were created to keep black people out of white neighborhoods
Our 2nd home was purchased in NE Portland Oregon in the early ‘90’s.
No HOA but the CCR’s had this line in it & although it was crossed out - it was VERY legible, with a very THIN black line - it said something like: “There shall be no person of color residing in this neighborhood unless in the capacity of a servant.”
Not even kidding. The home was on 109th between Glisan & Halsey.
My money is on this particular one being an OLD covenant that was on the property when it was built in the early-to-mid 1960s or so? Maybe late 50s? Johnson passed the Fair Housing Act in 1968.
By 1990 stuff like this was absolutely illegal on a federal level. As others have alluded to, HOAs (often called "gated communities") sprung up in part as a way to privatize/hide housing dsicrimination which could no longer be enshrined in the law.
There's a suburb in my hometown where there's a JCC, a Hebrew school and at least a couple of synagogues. It seemed to be the town where Jews moving out of the city (during "white flight") or moving upstate from "The City" tended to move to. What likely helped towards the latter is that it shared half the name of a Jewish neighborhood in NYC.
I can't absolutely be certain, but it's a pretty safe bet that that particular suburb was one that never had anti-Semitic CCRs back in the 50s. After the CCRs in other burbs around here were eliminated, parents who kept Kosher still probably wanted not to have to worry that their kid would get the choice of pepperoni pizza or ham & cheese sandwich for lunch.
There was a condo in TX who's legals docs had a provision prohibiting people of colour unless they were "the help."
The board actively enforced that provision through a board approval requirement for all prospective buyers or tenants.
This was around 2015 or 16
This jn the 90s? WTH? 😠 😡 👿 😤
Seen an old educational film about this on the YouTube channel reel black
No they weren't. Good grief.
Yes they were. There is a clear documented history of them being used to enforce racial and socioeconomic homogeneity within neighborhoods
I don't give a damn about documented history. Who cares? EVERY race has been the victim of and has perpetrated racism. Just stop with the CONSTANT excuses as to why you should be a victim.
You don’t give a damn about actual, documented history? History that actually happened and there are records of it happening?
When were you oppressed, snowflake? I’ll wait for the documented history.
I don't give a damn about whiners complaining about RaCisM. There has ALWAYS been racism in the world and there ALWAYS will be. And guess what? It is perpetrated by ALL races against ALL races. So when someone throws out the race card, they just show they are intellectually disingenuous.
It depends on the country and the situation. To ignore your own racism in your own country displays an intellectual lack of nuance and really highlights your own disingenuousness, cupcake.
When were you oppressed in your own country? I will wait for the documented history. Bring the receipts or take your fragility elsewhere, snowflake.
So then you agree that ALL races in ALL countries have racists among them. Great.
I said no such thing. Don’t put words in my mouth or imply I agree with your bigoted statements.
You aren’t sticking to the topic at hand. Worse: you are conflating it with larger social issues that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
You are arguing in bad faith.
Facts aren't bigoted. Get over yourself. You aren't any more special than anyone else. Every race has been slaves and every race has been racist. Live in the past with thinking you are the ONLY beleaguered person in the world if you want. That's pathetic
Many (not all) HOAs begin as builder/village mandates. The village wants a park or requires drainage and a water retention pond to approve the number of homes the builder wants. The village doesn't want to maintain it, so they give a tax break to the builder if they'll take it on. Someone needs to centrally manage that task - the collection of money, the hiring of landscapers and cleaning crews, the insurance, maintenance of structures, etc. A management company is brought in, but they need to be kept in check, and accountable to the home owners in the neighborhood. Suddenly, HOA.
To disband one in that circumstance would require the village agreeing to take the land, and to maintain the "stuff." They don't want to, and it would require raising taxes, which everyone agrees is bad.
The sad thing is that it would be more efficient overall for the city to just do the maintenance. The incremental tax increase would be far less than the HOA fees.
Only because you're then spreading the cost to people who don't use it. Things are always cheaper when you can force someone else to pay for them.
No. There are also economies of scale.
I'm willing to wager some cash that they city's cost is higher, even if they contract the work out.
You trust the govt? Lol
Have you never seen a public park?
At least the government is subject to the constitution and bill of rights.
Not having an HOA and relying on the municipal government is one less layer.
So you trust the govt. Bless your heart.
So edgy. So cool.
Just to clarify, that "tax break" isn't really benefitting the developer, it's for the residents that live in the homes that now have to pay HOA dues to maintain what the municipality would otherwise be maintaining.
Dues are NOT taxes. /Smfh
I didn't say they were. But I DO know retention ponds are the single largest expense for our HOA. Even more than the pool. A good 35% of the budget goes towards that.
Dues are paid partly in lieu of higher property taxes that otherwise would have been assessed by the municipality to provide municipal services to the HOA properties. My HOA is responsible for its own roads and trash collection. These are normally provided by the town for everybody else. Are property taxes are slightly lower but what we pay in dues offsets that.
In what material way do dues differ from taxes?
Legally, they're not. Functionally they are no different.
This video by John Oliver provides a very good overview of why HOAs exist. It’s pretty funny too!
Freedom means you can enter into contracts that limit your freedom.
See HOAs, unions, NBA/MLS/NFL/etc, country clubs and on and on and on.
Joining is always voluntary and thus your choice
Once you’re in. Your property is in. HOA’s take over typical township/city responsibilities in terms of policing policies.
There are a lot of horror stories of HOA’s but there are also a lot of good HOA’s. I’ve lived in 3 HOA neighborhoods and when run properly it’s no different than your local council making rules regarding yard maintenance or vehicle storage. Some may have stricter rules than others. And in a sense it’s like how you can’t leave your city once your property is a part of it. But if you’re unhappy with it, just like with a city council you can vote in new leadership.
Negative news makes better news. You’re not going to hear about HOA’s operating properly. The same way as if a city or a person isn’t in the news. It’s probably because they’re doing what they are supposed to be doing. And news may seem like an issue is way more common than it really is. For example. I live in the south. Tons of guns. But going out the only time I see a gun in public is on a police officer. More rural areas this is different.
About 30% of Americans Live in HOA’s. It’s always good to keep in mind. News, or in this case, a Reddit community may make it seem like everyone lives in an HOA.
You see, in most places there's absolutely no "council rules about yard maintenance or vehicle storage".
Talking Italy, the only "rule" about yards is that the hedge/branches can't invade the sidewalk or road. You can have waist high grass or a barren dirt patch, nobody cares or can do anything about it. Unless it's some specific tree where you need an arborist approval to cut down, you can plant or cut any tree in your property. Obviously not in natural preserves
Same as parking, unless it's forbidden to park somewhere on the road and there's a sign you can leave a car there indefinitely. My car won't fix in the garage so it lives outside on the street, the garage is a laundry/pantry/storage space.
Building regulations exist and are a nightmare, some towns have approved colours to pick when painting the outside (only in some areas, most towns are fair game) but excluding those, once the house is up anything that happens on the property is nobody's business.
Just curious by no/few rules - could you have a car up on blocks in your drive? Could you put a chicken coop in your front yard? Or could you put a 6foot fence around the front of your house? Could you leave your front yard full of garbage bags? I’m sure your locale has more rules than even you realize. I’d be curious if you looked it up what you may find out.
I have friends who live in townships in the US - with no HOA - and they have similar rules to my HOA.
But in general my point is. HOA’s aren’t as much of a pain as it’s made out to be. Today, the primary purpose is to maintain common spaces within neighborhoods - pool, park, roads, gates. A lot of them will prevent people from painting their houses wild colors. And if you don’t want to live in an HOA, then don’t purchase a house in an HOA. The best HOA’s are the ones that do what they’re supposed to - and as long as you’re a decent neighbor you won’t realize that they are there. In my area there’s no public pools. So unless you have one in your yard, have a gym membership, or your neighborhood has a pool. But if your neighborhood has a pool it has to be paid for - an HOA pays for that. They have their purposes.
If you live in an HOA and are unhappy. You vote in new leadership. Or you choose to purchase a home that isn’t in an HOA.
In general the HOA is more like a smaller city govt in terms of its duties. Like you said about the council. Some HOA’s have no rules about individuals - they don’t care what your yard looks like. Or where you park your car. Some require yards to be maintained. There’a a spectrum of HOA’s and how strict rules are. Some HOA’s the only purpose of them is to maintain the neighborhood’s common spaces (as mentioned) and may not have any rules regarding individual homes.
My HOA maintains everyone’s landscaping (mowing the grass, trimming the shrubs etc), they maintain the pool and clubhouse, the gates, roads, sprinklers, trash and recycle pickup. There are some rules like having to get paint color approved if you want to change the house paint. But as long as it’s not neon green or something like that you’ll be approved. I’ve got neighbors with blue houses, yellow houses, etc.
Other rules in my neighborhood make sense if you actually saw my neighborhood - if I just told you the rules you might not agree with them, but seeing the neighborhood it’d make more sense.
The only rule we have that is enforced and I think is stupid - is no commercial vehicles are to be parked in your driveway. If you have one you can have it in the neighborhood but you need to park it in the garage. That’s the only rule I’ve heard of someone actually getting fined for in my neighborhood.
HOA’s aren’t for everyone. And HOA’s come in all different forms like I mentioned - just because one HOA is strict and horrible - doesn’t mean that the others have the same rules. And you can get a copy of HOA rules prior to buying a house in the neighborhood. So you’re not just moving in and hoping that you chose a good HOA. Like moving to a more strict council or a less strict council. Similar concepts.
I quick Google search for where I live and if you own the house the answer to all your examples was basicly yes with a few minor conditions.
Car up on blocks? Yes so long as there's no oil or chemicals leaking.
6ft fence? You can have it up to 2 meters or 6.74ft tall, so long as it's not higher than the front or side of the house and not directly leading onto a main road, if your house faces a pathway then its fine. If that's too restrictive you could have a large hedge instead however that must be maintained to prevent overhang and keep public walkways clear.
Keeping chickens? There are some restrictions with regards to animal health and care but if you have the space and can keep them contained and safe from the public the answer is yes up to a certain number depending on the local council and how much space you have.
Front yard full of garbage bags? Yes, kinda? This one is surprisingly complex, every home has sets of diffrent coloured bins, for example my flat has grey for general waste, blue for paper and cardboard and brown for food and garden waste, My last flat also had a green one for plastics and glass. While not recomended you could keep all these bins out front of your house and extra bags are permitted if the relevant bin is full so technically the answer is yes you could have them out front.
However leaving lots of bags outside for long periods of time without ever taking them to the street for pickup could be seen as a health risk and would likey result in some kind if local service investigating. So the answer becomes short term yes, long term no.
You could also have a bunch problems if you're leaving them perminantly out on the street, but in that example your leaving them in a public or counsel owned space rather than your own home, so I dont think that situation applies here.
You can absolutely have a non operational car on your property. My late grandpa's one chilled outdoors on flat tires for months.
Coop (as in the building) has to be 5m from the neighbors border, chickens can be free roaming on your property. I could feed the neighbors ones if I was so inclined. Animal welfare is who would be involved if they are kept into improper conditions.
Fences are town sanctioned for height, some allow up to 2m brick walls, others max 2 iron bars ones. If approved and within limit you can build it inside your property without even asking your neighbors, it's cheaper to split the cost and build on the exact line tho. Nobody wants unfenced houses/properties. Walking straight to someone house door is impossible, everything is fenced.
Any dog can be kept, in any apartment you own regardless of size. An apartment building can't unilaterally ban any house pets, state law > building regulations. I could potentially keep a pet goat in my apartment, only "issue" with pets is if they bark incessantly/make a ton of noise. But that's for everyone and everything during quiet hours.
As of trash, unless it's a biohazard then yeah. Again, not town but health office would be called.
As of amenities, I guess it's a different way of life. People work longer hours with longer lunch breaks, most commute and aren't even home before 6pm. At least in my area, if a town doesn't have x service the next town over (and you can tell it's a different town just because there's a sign, everything is condensed) will most likely have one within 10 min car ride.
I'm in real estate and the top sellers are single houses because you don't have any added costs. Pals in town with residences, the most similar thing I can think of a hoa/development, with stuff like pool or gym find those properties harder to sell than ones with services. The most common objection to apartments is "shared costs are too high". Pool is cool in theory but considering the average use one would do of it it's way too high cost, low reward.
Still talking about the north, neighbors are acquaintances at best. It's rare to be friends with neighbors and do stuff together, even in apartment complexes with a big communal garden. My living room looks on it, I've never seen more that 3 neighbors being out together and those are the kids that live in the building playing. Only during the big lockdown people used it, and that's because we were literally not allowed to even be out of the property except for dire necessities.
We do be mean hermits😂 I've lived here all my life and while I know my neighbors by sight, I have absolutely no clue how some are called and some have never ever spoke to beside a casual hello
Same, I've experienced HOAs do good and bad. I hardly ever hear from my current one which is nice. In the past they have helped deal with nightmare neighbors. On the flip side, my buddy's HOA will try to fine you $500 just for leaving your towel to dry on the rail outside after using the pool - they are super nosey and manufacturer drama. It all depends on the people running the HOA.
There are many styles of HOA's in the USA. My HOA is a voluntary HOA. If you don't want to pay the $45 a year fee, you do not have to! But the $45 per year fees helps maintain the community beach and the insurance for the beach.
Other HOA's may be mandatory or have different fee schedules.
These are usually properly “civic associations” rather than HOAs
Where I live, all newer houses are in a HOA. The roads are public, but other than that, the government has just shifted the costs to the homeowners. Want a park or a playground? You won't have one unless you join together and pay for it.
My HOA exists only to handle our jointly-owned property. Not to fuss about your lawn or care what color you paint your house.
Condominiums, co-ops, townhouses, and privately-owned apartments must have an association to cover the joint property. The lobby, the sidewalk, outdoor plantings, parking lot, etc.
There must be something like that in the UK, probably just called something different?
But you guys also have weird restrictions via your councils which sound worse thsn some of the more sane HOAs. And you don't have the option to buy a property where there isn't a council. Where I live the only permit I needed when I built was a se5oric permit because that would affect ground water.
I think the comparison to a micro-government is the best analysis. They provide community services that the individual can't and the government won't. The downside is is that government is paid by relatively fixed rules and taxes. Where HOAs can access as needed and change the rules as they want.
They can’t change the rules as they want, that’s where they get into trouble and the reason why this subreddit exists. They do it anyway and the only way to stop them is to sue.
I served on a board for a decade, while yes, you can't change the CCR or bylaws, they are often written with treamadous flexibility. Examples:
Board must approve landscaping
Board must approve architectural changes
Board must will provide assessments as necessary
These three rules can crush a home owner, well within the laws.
In most states, there is no such thing as a “tremendously flexible” bylaw. The courts view restrictive covenants unfavorably, so ambiguity and broad language is interpreted narrowly. In Virginia, restrictions and the authority to adopt any given rule must be explicitly authorized by the declaration. In Virginia, HOAs also cannot assess any charges for anything unless that charge is explicitly authorized by the declaration. Given the broad language the examples you gave with no other relevant language in the declaration, the board would have no ability to spend assessment money on anything not authorized by statute, and the board would need to approve landscaping and architectural changes but have no basis for denying anything that may be proposed. Also, without a definition for “architectural” it would likely only apply to the construction of buildings. Even the landscaping would probably be narrower than some might think, likely only applying to significant changes in the design of live vegetation, like planting or removing trees, significant removal of the lawn, etc.
Cool story, as a financially strapped home howner, are you going to spend $10k plus hiring a lawyer to sue your HOA or just comply with their demands.
Like I said, I served 10 years on the board, the problematic homes where not from those in a good financial standing.
I would start by bringing my concerns to the board meeting and, if necessary, have my attorney draft a letter. In my experience, if the board is consulting with legal counsel, they are more receptive to correcting behaviors that are inconsistent with case law. Although, I feel like it took a really long time for my board to take my concerns as seriously as they do today.
Funny thing is, watching Clarkson's Farm I get the feeling your town councils and government rules seem a lot like an HOA here.
From another European guy perspective: Hoas are the most communist thing o heard about in my life
They’re actually a way to take things that are generally the local government’s job, ie road/sidewalk maintenance, public areas, nuisance mitigation etc and dumping it on private organizations. Many HOAs contract this work out to private management companies. It’s capitalism at it’s worst
Think of it as the modern day Indentured Servitude. You sign the line to buy the house and you are now a subject of what ever Orwellian nightmare the empire builders can conjure up.
Unfortunately, real estate law in the US provides not only for the creation of these hellholes, but the Declarations make it next to near impossible to take it apart. When I made the mistake of buying into an HOA community, the Declarations and ByLaws required a unanimous vote of all homeowners to dismantle the Corporation. Yes the HOA was a LLC. The problem is, even if the homeowners decide they no longer want the aggravation of the HOA and are ready to simply walk away and force it into financial collapse, the end result is creditors will sue for payment. The court upon encountering a dysfunctional HOA will then appoint a caretaker (think lawyer or property management firm) and they in turn begin standing the damn thing back up. Suddenly you are faced with notification to pay past unpaid dues and special assessments to pay the HOA bills, and the courts will back the appointed caretaker. Even more aggravating is many times properties become rentals. The rental owners typically want the HOA in place as it takes care of much of what the rental owner would have to handle themself or contract out of their own pocket.
I am 72 and would live in a backwoods mobile home before ever taking on another home subject to the whims of a Hitleresque HOA.
USA is the Land of the Free To Racially Discriminate. Everything is legal if the POC or the LGBTQ+ suffer.
Still the case a lot of places, but some of us are trying..,
The original purpose of an HOA was solely racist. If I remember correctly the first was a suburb in Illinois. The only purpose of the HOA, and it was in their charter, was to make sure black people were not able to purchase property (by deed restriction) in the development.
What you see now are just different forms of prejudice being foisted upon homeowners. Today, municipalities love them because they replace infrastructure maintenance costs by making the developers responsible for roads, sewers and utility right of ways and more.
Our hoa has an enforcement company separate from the board. So the board makes the charter and all that but a separate company handles the complaints and fines. This seems to help with the excessive complaints. I know the president of the hoa and they moved to this system about 10 years ago because the last president was out of his mind. So when he was elected he thought this would be good even though they get less money over all.
As far as I know they were inspired by mid-century condo type associations (where there is actual value to them) and subsequently perverted into the default style of development dedicated to “protecting home values” in their little isolated pockets of micromanagement.
In the US, government exists mainly to collect taxes, issue fees and penalties, and incarcerate people. So developers get municipalities to allow them to set up little fiefdoms called HOAs. And residents better not run afoul of the overlords.
I live in a condo with a good HOA. We pay a fee and they handle all outside care (lawn, snow, pests, etc), building repairs, parking lot repair, etc.
For housing neighborhoods that have them they are mainly to prevent one house from bringing down the value of the rest by letting it fall into disrepair, lawn grow out, junk cars sitting in the front yard, weird paint jobs that just look bad.
The ones you hear about here are either the bad ones or you're getting the perspective of the people that the HOAs are supposed to protect against.
'Land of the free' hahaha
It blows my mind that people work their tails off and then agree to have someone dictate how they can live.
HOAs became ubiquitous because property developers and municipal governments favor them. The property developer uses it to maintain control over the neighborhood while it's under development. The city likes it because they don't have to invest in certain municipal services like water drainage - the cost gets directly offloaded onto the homeowners. Law firms like them because they generate exorbitant fees. HOAs are a prime example of American style crony capitalism.
They were originally created for a few reasons. 1, like someone else already commented as a restrictive covenant to keep minorities out of neighborhoods, but you don't actually need an HOA back then because in many places banks created red line districts to make de facto segregation. They also wanted to stop "well, there goes the neighborhood" type shit with white flight
To sort of try and control home value in a neighborhood. So like all the homes are the same, can't have an eye sore, can't leave laundry drying in the front lawn, can't have a ton of trash on the lawn. In an era where people were moving out from tenements, people were happy to do this.
To have community amenities like a swimming pool only for residents, community center, shit like that.
Local governments were all too happy for HOA's because usually the HOA has to maintain the road, pipes and all that infrastructure. It because sort of a ponzi scheme because the local town didn't have to re pave the roads. Over time boomers got way too crazy with it and became Gestapo like
Great question and they are impossible to get rid of
For many HOAs the case is that when the neighborhood was developed, membership in the HOA was a permanent feature in the sales contract of the house. It's the land of the free but if you sign a contract you've agreed to the terms.
It essentially became popular because middle class people wanted their neighborhoods to look nice and to keep the poor people or "bad" people (read: minorities) out of their nice neighborhood and ruining it. Now they exist as relics of an older time that most peoole don't want, but we can't escape them untill the old people on the boards die, and new people willing to vote to dissolve the organizations get elected to their boards.
The origins goes back to the segregation period and were created to keep black people out of white neighborhoods. Horrible thing that should never be allowed to happen again, ever. In the mid 1900 developers used them as a selling point. An organization that would maintain and keep the neighborhood and amenities in good condition. In modern days HOA are nothing but a tyrannical organization that have been allowed by the local government. You are paying taxes but you are getting nothing in return especially if the property is gated. If is gated is considered private property. The big lie is that HOA maintains and keeps property values up. They have so much power is mind blowing. And the fact that they can take your home is insane. You have no ownership rights, except on paper. They need to be abolished.
Not all HOAs are off the rails. Mine is $200 a year, it's to pay for snow plowing, grating the gravel road around the neighborhood, new gravel. BTW, this is in the countryside in the mountains.
Because there is a certain subset of the population that wants others to dictate nearly every aspect of their life.
This might be odd to a Brit, but I live outside of a city and there aren’t a lot of rules. I mow around my house, but the rest of the grass in my huge yard is at least a yard tall (I think the wildlife likes it that way), one neighbor makes chainsaw art and several others have livestock. Last Fall I (safely) shot a deer and a couple turkeys from my porch and in the Winter we grabbed a road kill deer to feed to our pets and left the guts out for the birds and coyotes. I occasionally have a few friends over to (safely)shoot a few hundred rounds at some steel plate targets.
Some folks would like to live outside the city because the land and utilities are cheaper but don’t want to live near folks like me so the developers set up an HOA to enforce a few rules like no busted trucks in the yard and no hunting off your back porch. Some HOAs suck more than others.
For what it’s worth, I’m also a university educated, highly compensated professional and most of my neighbors are doctors and lawyers. I just live how I like and like how I live.
Yes. You can 100% leave these organizations. They aren’t a cult. You sell your house/condo and move. Problem solved.
HOAs are designed by and for racists
The same way that you in the UK let your Councils run rough shod over you guys. There are good HOAs and bad HOAs just like there are good Councils and bad Councils. When the wrong people get put in place on either side of the Atlantic they can make life suck
Our HOA dues are 250.00 Yearly. For that we pay for the street lights (in the county) and we maintain our own roads and maintain common areas and run a surplus.
UK and US are tied for 17th place on the freedom index. It's just that you value different rights differently. Americans are able to easily and legally possess any number of firearms, and British kids can come home from school without bullet holes. You, in the UK, can see a doctor or have surgery without worrying about the cost, and Americans can go bankrupt, knowing that at least their tax money isn't allowing people with the wrong skin colour to access any medical care at all.
So I'm a little late to the post, but I haven't seen this brought up in the comments.
Yes, HOAs were created to restrict certain types of homeowners. They were ALSO created because it is more efficient for a builder to come in and build hundreds of the same house, with variations, than the traditional way. It's still cheaper, more economical and faster. Which is why it's the predominate way to build housing in America. period.
Does this push the little builder out? Yes. But it does employ more people, albeit illegal workers here in florida, and it does build houses quicker.
You spelled it out in your question, corruption. The developers paid off local politicians to give them a permanent income stream, nepotism and good ol boy networks got people in the positions, then somewhere along the line it spread and became “normal “. Iirc it started as a concept in Florida if that helps understand.
You have residents associations in the UK. They’re the same thing. 😒
They came from land covenants that were put in place to keep non white people from living in white communities.
LMAO@ "Land of the Free"
the USA, the land of the free
LMAO oh goodness. Please ignore the marketing
Desegregation loophole.
No, you can't just leave them. They are tied to the property.
And where they came from? Condos and townhouses initially. Then builders started adding them, so the properties all look the same and clean, when they're selling... Finally politicians saw that they can offload maintenance to homeowners, and having HOA's pay for parks, roads, etc. Instead of city budgets... Voila. The rest is history.
HOAs are probably the best way to handle multiple ownership in a condo building or townhouses, where there are multiple common-use expenses and maintenance issues like balconies, elevators, hallway/lobby furnishings, and a single roof over multiple people.
They've turned into quite the quagmire of crapshoots, when it comes to multiple single-family homes in a neighborhood though. Municipalities are only too happy to give away responsibilities for mai tenancy and code enforcement, while still collecting all tax revenues though....it's a win-win for municipalities.
Can also think of is as a private version of y'all's Council Housing on crack.
Racism. Also the reason they still exist.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
What's so funny?
That someone thinks HOAs still exist today because of racism. That's delusional.
We're pretty ethnically diverse. We don't have any Inuit, though, because screw those guys, all Inuit are bad.
Democracy.
The original HOA was formed after WWII by a man Bill Levitt purchased 4000 acres on ling island and built a housing plan. It was a planned community with a CCR and was the template for the HOAs that followed.
Bill Levitt explicitly banned Black Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics from purchasing leasing or renting in his communities, even going as far as to ban mixed race cohabitation.
And make no mistake, the purchasing and leasing prohibition on blacks was the 3rd covenant, and the ban on renting to people of color and mixed race cohabitation was the 4th.