Is the empowered warrior MFC the new pick me girl?

Something bothers me about female characters. I don't care much if they present themselves as feminine or masculine, but I've noticed that smart, rational, cool-headed FMCs are severely underrepresented. FMCs are either soft, sweet, somewhat insecure girls who can't stand up for themselves or they are rash, obstinate, impulsive, unreasonable and unable to learn from their mistakes. Both play into the worst stereotypes about women - on one hand we have helpless damsels on distress, on the other hand - irrational, prone to emotional outbursts drama queens who can't be trusted with anything important because their unruly feelings cloud their judgement. I resent both of those stereotypes.

Honestly I’d like to just read about a main female character who is neither a pushover nor a ‘sassy’ girl.  If you have any recommendations please share

They’re hardly ever sassy - just mean. 

I think everyone would be better off if we all stopped judging female characters based off of how feminine or masculine they are.

Seriously. I see this complaint all the time and read the books where supposedly the FMC is a “pick me” and she’s really just… not feminine. She’s not hating on other woman. She just doesn’t engage in or like feminine pursuits. Equating not being feminine to being a pick me is so incredibly insulting to women, and shows a lack of knowledge about what being a pick me is. You could be the most feminine woman in the world and be a pick me.

Whatever, the point is — I find this talk incredibly grating, and more misogynistic than anything else. It seems like we’ve done a total 180 and now are misogynistic to women who don’t fit into our societal standards for women… Who is this helping?

Btw: a fantasy book often requires action. Most main characters in most fantasy books are going to be fighters, either from the get go or they’re going to be trained to be. If your main character isn’t a fighter, they need to be plot relevant somehow, and the focus would have to not be on action. Why would an author write an FMC who can’t fight nor can’t grow to be a fighter when writing action-based fantasy? It can be done, but why would you expect it?

I completely agree. Also to add on, when they get described as being “sassy “, but actually the only thing that they are doing is being extremely rude and unnecessarily combative to everyone around them-even when no one has done anything toward them.

Also, they are described as being the best assassins, warriors or hunters, and gets described in length how clever and powerful they are, but somehow-they keep doing really stupid things, getting into unnecessary fights or going to places that they have been warned over and over again is dangerous. That’s why I now tend to avoid books where the female protagonist is a hunter or assassin.

Besides the points made by the others, there is another problem with the warrior girl in a lot of fantasy romances.

It is not "feminist".

It's a fig leaf often used to pretend to be feminist (look, she is a warrior, she is clearly an independent woman) that falls apart as soon as the FMC meets the MMC.

I've lost the count of the number of stories where our great badass warrior/assassin/mercenary needs to be rescued again and again, and is totally overpowered by MMC and basically loses any agency she had as soon as they are in the same room, with a level of BBS that makes my eyes roll.

If you author want to tell a story of a damsel in distress and the hot overbearing guy who saves her and then screw her silly go for it. But why you want to pretend that the damsel is competent in something (fighting usually) when she clearly isn't really irritates me.

Edit for typos.

I don't know if this will be a very unpopular take but I do think there are a lot of writers in this space who were bullied by other women in high school... or romantically unsuccessful, which they think is because they were 'not like the other girls'...

Strength is too often reduced to the type of strength that is in the male archetype, aka violent badassery. Give me a woman who is brilliant but physically incompetent please lol. I don't mind the badass FMCs, they're great too, but we can't fit both just fine

This feels like a near-malicious misunderstanding of what a "pick me" is, and completely ignores the history of how we've had to fight for characters like this (not to mention that SJM's MCs have a duality of femininity and martial strength, and a moment in ToG I really liked was Celeana actually acknowledging she had been shallow to judge pretty women as shallow and vapid, and had ignored how they had been welding the only weapons they had been allowed in their worlds).

Not every type of character appeals to every reader, and there are many types of MCs out there, if this type of character is not doing it for you, it's worth looking a bit further afield to find what you want, because it is out there.

Hate when pick me is used interchangeably with any women who doesn’t fit the exact mold of social norms. Shaming women for being different and failing to conform to gender roles isn’t as progressive as some people seem to think it is

I feel like “pick me girl” is just a moving goal post being used to put women who stray outside social norms in their place, which it also seems like a lot of this critique is as well.

My personal pet hate is the FMC who "had X older brothers who taught her how to fight." Why can't she have pursued martial arts as a hobby, or practiced fencing with her grandmother or learnt to box from a female mentor?

Our cultural narrative around women is that it's not good to be feminine because its connotations are weak, shallow, vain, disempowered, manipulative. So, instead of women who are powerfully feminine, we end up with women who ape masculine qualities.

I think there are a lot of valid points being made here, even in the comments that are kinda shitting on your post.

With that said, I get you. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting a more feminine FMC, and being frustrated with how warrior FMCs are portrayed. Why does one thing have to come at the expense of another? Why do you have to hate dresses to be a badass? Not to mention the other tired tropes you’ve mentioned (which, if we’re being honest, just come down to lazy/poor writing and characterization).

What you want (a well developed character who isn’t a reaction to feminine tropes, but can embrace and expand on them), isn’t inherently a condemnation of self-insert/mary sue protagonists or people who like them. You want more. That’s valid.

I wish I had a recommendation for you, but I don’t, which is why I’m writing my own books. I’m not gonna self-promo (I usually don’t comment in this sub for that reason, just read threads to quietly and happily get validation for my own writing), but I wanted to reassure you that your preferred flavor is completely valid. You are allowed to like and want that just as much as people like and want the stuff you don’t like. One isn’t more valid than the other. Both can be done well (and poorly). And, frankly, it’s possible to enjoy both and critique both.

I do like series that explore other ways to be strong outside of physical training. One of my favorite FMCs is this tiny woman who spends an entire book outsmarting a warrior clan.   

 I wouldn’t say she embraces her feminine side, especially since she spends most of the book looking like and pretending to be a boy. She’s not a muscled warrior, but she’s cunning and does whatever she can to survive.  

I also like to see this in male characters. There are many ways to be strong, even in a fantasy world where everything is trying to kill you.

This character archetype became popular after the popularity of Hunger Games. Katniss Everdeen was a more ‘masculine’ MFC that was capable of hunting, providing, and looking after her family. Love doesn’t really interest her, as she doesn’t see a point since it won’t feed her family.

This works for Katniss, and doesn’t make her a pick me, since we understand she is the way she is due to the repressive society she lives in. Her main focus is on survival and protecting her family. When this female archetype is replicated under different circumstances, ie the main character is a royalty, it creates this ‘pick me’ behavior. It’s enforcing certain characteristics without really understanding the character and where she lives.

Many times the character is viewed as a black sheep of her society, unlike many of the others (and other girls).

Additionally, Katniss lack of ability to be likeable actually harms her. Is shows her not being traditionally feminine as a con when she is in the capital, where the people there don’t have the same concerns Katniss has. It’s a huge problem throughout the series since her inability to connect with others affects her sponsors, and later her effectiveness in leading a rebellion.

I’m all for tomboy characters, but I think a lot of authors don’t realistically showcase this in a realistic way. It’s just a strong, smartass, female character who is the main apex predator of the group who can mastermind everything. This is unrealistic whether the character is male or female.

This is a well-known media and literary trope known as the "strong female character paradox" (a strong woman must act masculine and reject femininity). The criticism of these kinds of "Strong Female Characters" is that they tend to be written one-dimensionally with loads of internalized misogyny, perpetuating sexist attitudes.

The issue isn't that they are opposed to being feminine. The issue is that they scoff at femininity. They act like pretty and elegant women are lesser. They act like women who wear dresses can't also possibly know how to be strong and badass. They're mocking, rude, and dismissive. They aren't empowering women. They're empowering themselves while demeaning women. That's what I dislike about them. And that's what makes them and their authors feel like such Pick Mes.

The deep rooted issue here is what you perceive as "feminine" & "masculine". It stems from our societal norms and the patriarchal barriers that have been set. Why do we view a warrior-like FMC as someone entering "male spaces" and adopting "male values". This is the problem. The boxes they have given us. I don't know how old the OP is, or their knowledge on the subject. But what others believe feminity is and should look like has been used to oppress women for eons. When we seek to break free from this, it's always a problem. Personally, I love a rough and tumble warrior FMC with cunning who DOESN'T conform to these archaic beliefs and systems. It's actually refreshing. Please, more of this.

"Why can't they embrace their femininity?" bc they often don't have it. Women aren't born feminine they become so through socialization. I get what you're saying and i agree we shouldn't bash feminity but those women aren't necessarily masculine just not feminine. Growing up i always saw women in books or movies that were feminine or when the love interest was introduced they became feminine. Aren't yall tired of gender norms? I rejoiced sm when i read stolen heir and wren was monstrous and a mess and unapologetically not feminine and pretty in a flattering way bc finally after years i could see someone i could relate to.

Also bringing up acotar in this discussion is absolutely crazy to me bc feyre is feminine and she can fight. Both of those statements are true so you literally disproved your point.

I’m so sick of FMCs who don’t eat, who say they’re not hungry and have to be constantly reminded by MMCs to eat. Like, girl, if you’re this big warrior and you care about your people/fae lands/etc and everything depends on you, then you should know that your body requires calories to work efficiently in order to do that. Blah.

I would also love a mortal FMC who doesn’t secretly have some bloodline of the gods / hidden powers that suddenly make her the most powerful genie of all time 🙄. I would love a normal character with innate weaknesses to just stay normal for once.

No because a “pick me” girl’s, as first originally coined and defined in Black womanist/feminist talking spaces, entire identity is focused on being traditionally feminine. They are male-centered, not masculine, 2 different things. What you are describing is just the NLOG trope IF they are actively bashing things/being disdainful towards traditionally seen as “feminine”. As to your point about embracing femininity…what is femininity? And how does a character being a fighter/warrior immediately cancel that out? And in a fantasy world, why are we still wanting to see characters abide by modern real world gender roles and tropes in the first place?

Am I understanding correctly? You read a lot of popular books recommended on Tik Tok and you are frustrated that they were full of common femininity commentary to generate character struggle?

Should that be surprising? Women are still dealing with misogyny on the daily, with tons of conflicting opinions on what we should do to be women "the right way". Depicting a woman as feeling "not like other girls" when trying to fit outside "common expectations" could be lazy writing or it could be relatable. You can definitely be tired of the conversation, we do live it everyday, but I am also of the opinion that most NLOG accusations are rooted in their own internalized misogyny.

This is a huge conversation because in order to discuss whether or not someone is a NLOG, we have to agree on what traits are feminine. Then we have to discuss whether those traits should be inherently feminine or if that's internalized misogyny.

Then we have to determine the biases that authors and readers have, general expectations on settings (such as Medieval and what would have been their traditional societal views), and whether the script can be flipped on those without confusing everyone.

After that, we would debate whether a character expressing disdain for dresses is personal taste, disdain for the expectations surrounding dresses, or an external criticism of others choosing to wear them.

But let's look at Serpent and the Wings of Night. It's a decent example. She's a rebellious tomboy who always keeps a knife with her. She's generally a dysfunctional human being, but she also has been treated like a living doll by her father figure and is living in a court where 100% of its citizens would rather have an eat cute with her than a meet cute. Not sure how embracing her femininity would work out if she's ultimately viewed as a Michelin Star-styled bloodbag.

There's definitely merit in the argument against overwriting a character rejecting femininity or masculinity using appearances and activities. Can they never wear pants because that's what they do and still be feminine? Do dresses represent embracing femininity or can they just be swishy and fun? Is going to the bar an inherently manly activity? Lol, but seriously, is femininity what we wear and what activities we engage in or is it who we are and how we operate? Both?

I get questioning whether women need to try to fit into masc stereotypes to become deadly assassins or save the world, but if it's a stereotype because we've unfairly assigned it a label, is it actually disdain for femininity to wear pants, or disdain for the expectations around dresses? Is it disdain at all or a personal preference others are interpreting as external criticism?

The NLOG label also sets a dangerous precedent. Should anyone tell a woman who wants to be a warrior, feels like nobody sees her that way, and makes changes to herself to fit in better with the warrior group (mostly made up of men), to stop doing that because it's making it seem like they hate stereotypically feminine things? Should those things have been given gender labels to begin with?

Moreover, should any woman be made to suffer name calling for having a desire to fit in to a particular group?

We could talk for days about this and come to no real conclusion. My opinion is that you aren't a NLOG unless you believe other women are wrong for embracing traditionally feminine traits. Not wanting them for yourself doesn't make you a NLOG. But the author might reveal their personal bias by painting the masc assassin FMC as better than everyone else in the narration. That has nothing to do with the characters themselves being NLOGs until they internalize that belief about themselves and everything to do with that author probably self inserting into their character too much.

My best advice? Get off of Tik Tok and check around this sub for book recommendations that flip the script. Popular books will have a lot of common, popular themes that are easily accessible. There are definitely books out there that will shake that up for you and get you out of your slump.

Don’t agree and frankly don’t understand why a woman “has” to be more feminine or embrace their femininity if that’s not who they are. Believe it or not but women can be very masculine and men can be very feminine without there being anything wrong at all, these concepts are just social constructions and has nothing to do with biology. Long before the creation of a social society where humans were mere hunters and gatherers the women were out fighting and hunting with the men, we’ve also seen several examples of societies throughout history where women were trained fighters and warriors alongside the men. Take Vikings for example, some research even shows that a few of the most impressive and feared warriors were women. It’s important to remember history when discussing social norms and how that upholds internal misogyny.

I’d also like to argue that most characters from fantasy have all grown up in very tough and brutal environments where you often have to be able to defend yourself and be a fighter to be able to survive. Not to mention that in a lot of these books the characters get involved in huge battles and it wouldn’t make sense for the FMC to be “uhm, I think I’m gonna sit this one out” when action is a big part of the entire plot.

IMO people should be able see beyond the stereotypes of women having to be a certain way and men having to be a certain way, especially in a fantasy setting where you don’t have to bend to the social norms of our society. I recently read His Secret Illuminations and it was so refreshing to read, the FMC is a buff warrior and the MMC is a sheltered, innocent monk. The book does a complete 180 on traditional gender roles and it was a lot of fun. I’d love to see more of that in books overall.

Spoiler

Who cares.

When I am reading a book, I’m definitely supplementing the FMC (or sometimes even the MMC) with a character of my own later.

She definitely isn’t rapidly approaching 40, she definitely isn’t overweight, she definitely has a weird affinity for combat or magic or politics or whatever… in a word she definitely isn’t me… but like… she is kinda. She’s the character I imagine myself being if I were in a universe where fairies existed and personal trainers weren’t prohibitively expensive…

Anyways… imaginary me can almost always wield a sword with improbable skill, and is always slightly more powerful than the other characters, and is always a little bit more competent than the ACTUAL FMC…

… so whatever, write your FMC as the most competent swordswoman ever, write her as the best mage ever, write her as the best lover ever…. It’s saving me time revising her into an even bigger Mary Sue in my own mind.

And I’m not apologizing for it. If I have to wake up at 6 am daily to do a mid job for a mid salary with only a mid hope of ever owning a home that isn’t a trailer… well then in my imagination I can be the Mary-est Sue of all Mary Sues that have ever Mary Sue’d across the entire imaginary multiverse.

The point of me reading isn’t so that I can listen to the boring narrative of a boring person who boringly gets up for work 5/7 days a week, so that she can boringly afford to pay her rent and feed her dogs, and finance expensive canine diagnostic tests, ok????? Like… if that’s the story I want, I can just continue waking up on a daily basis.

Please, writers, escape the actual fuck out of boring old reality. I am definitely not here to hear about how the elf lord married an elf lady in a respectful marriage for the sake of furthering his race. I would not read that book.

It’s called escapism, people, and it’s what I am here for. If I want a genius plot I will read War and Peace.

They are YA and not romance focused, but I've always loved Tamora Pierce's books for how they handle that. She has protagonists who don't entirely denounce their femininity or act like it's bad to be a woman who wears dresses just because you want to be a knight. Often accepting that part of their identities is part of their journey (for the ones who chose a non-feminine path, for example).

Ironically this post has more of a "pick me" vibe than any of these books.

No, she is not. She is just not feminine, and I wish we stopped reading into it more than that. So many times if a woman is not feeding into cultural expectations of femininity, we feel the need to pathologize it and insist that there must be something somehow defective about her. When in reality she is just. not. feminine.

That being said, I do love and appreciate feminine women just as much as non-traditional women, and enjoy reading about both (shoutout to Jane Austen!). I do think Fantasy Romance creates more of the Female Warrior trope due to the fact that the plot often requires that kind of action, but there are definitely authors who break out of that. I think Grace Draven does a good job of writing "non-warrior" women who overall just seem to have really good character more than anything if you are looking for an author who writes these kinds of women. The heroine Tisaanah in Daughter of No Worlds by Carissa Broadbent also tends toward a more traditional role. Does she fight? Yes. But she also has a really kind, gentle, optimistic spirit that reads as incredibly feminine to me. Caraval by Stephanie Garber also features heroines that rely more on their intelligence than fighting skills. Maybe the Mods could even consider hosting a book rec megathread featuring "Female Non-Warriors" for those who enjoy a more traditionally feminine heroine?

I agree. I’ve said this before and I’ll keep saying it until some of these authors get the picture: a lot of them need to take a step back and read some feminist novels, then get back to writing, because simply making your FMC masculine is not female empowerment.

In that same vein though, I also think a lot of readers need to do the same. Read some feminist books & address their internalized misogyny, that is. Also, before I elaborate, I do think it’s worth noting that every single person is absolutely dealing with misogyny/internalized misogyny (yes, myself included). You simply cannot grow up in a patriarchal world without having it forced upon you. The only people who will ever be rid of it are the people who work at getting rid of it.

With that said, it seems like a lot of these authors are stuck thinking about gender and gender expression as a binary, and see femininity as weak (that’s part of the internalized misogyny bit). While it’s important to show that women in these novels can be more than the roles women characters have always been relegated to, that doesn’t mean you have to make them masculine and anti-femininity. Why not, instead, take the time to show readers what bad ass femininity looks like? Or, better yet, stop shoving their characters into gendered boxes?

As for why readers also need to do their part: there are a lot of authors who have done the work to unlearn their internalized misogyny and want to write unique, empowered, female characters, but the range of what readers will accept from FMC’s is pretty small. FMC’s who have flaws outside of being sassy are often hated on, FMC’s who stand up for themselves, don’t put up with bullshit from men (including the MMC when he’s being a dickhead), etc. are all hated on relentlessly, and often the book gets bad reviews because of it.

So I agree, we need more unique FMC’s, and we need FMC’s who are empowered without being anti-femininity, but I also think everyone needs to be willing to do the work (both authors and readers) to make that a more regular occurrence than it currently is.

Women who use their intellect to get through their hardship?

I'm always recommending {Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries} on here bc the FMC is so unique compared to the overpowered girl boss warrior trope.

The FMC, Emily, is a brilliant researcher/professor studying faeries. She cares a lot about her career and reputation as a woman in the field. She's introverted and a curmudgeon, so she's independent, but not in an annoying way. She's very capable and reasonable, but not a fighter. The MMC is a whimsical charming golden retriever type. So it's like a reversed grumpy/sunshine but Emily isn't roll-your-eyes bitchy.

The perennially relevant ‘Strong Female Characters’ comic strip on Hark a Vagrant. Originally described women in movies predominantly written by men but the clichés remain!

Hard disagree about ACOTAR. In ACOTAR, the presence of her stereotypically feminine side changes back and forth. In the beginning, she’s super masculine. She’s a hunter, she’s got a guy to roll in the hay with when the mood strikes. She calls the shots in her home. When she comes home with money from selling a a pelt, she decides who gets what. She wears pants.

You see that change back and forth as the series goes on. Next, it’s dresses and kisses and falling in love with a blonde sexy prince type guy. Then, dirty fighter Feyre returns. More pants. Then it’s back to dresses, wedding dresses, party planning, and being blonde guy’s little pet/arm candy/trophy. Then it’s time to learn how to fight for real: fighting leathers, swords, and wielding powerful magic.

Eventually, though - she gets to a place where there is a balance. She finds strength in her femininity and can act with empathy when she is in fighter-Feyre mode. All of this is evidenced by her going back and forth about painting as well - something she views as soft and feminine.

Yeah like I always say if they're well written or go through a lot of character development then sure give me all the badass warrior FMCs. Unfortunately, that has not been the case lately. At this point so many of them don't have any other defining character traits aside from being badass and sassy (aka rude and obnoxious) so they all blend into the same exact character just with a different name in a different book. Especially when a lot of them are written in first POV I start to lose it because being in their head is exhausting lol.

I’m surprised you put ACOTAR into this category. Feyre, once she is set up in the Spring Court, does wear dresses. But when she goes out to hunt, she doesn’t, as they’re not well designed for hunting.

In ACOMAF, she also uses her femininity to help her gain the trust of another High Lord, in order to steal from him. She’s wearing quite a few dresses in there, and also fights like a badass when needed.

This is just specific examples, and I haven’t read the other books you mention, but I think the issue is with the books you’re reading, not fantasy in general. The more popular books might have this trend, so maybe ask for other recs or research on your own for more varied book types?

One of my very favorite things about Aelin Galathynius is her femininity

I agree with you!

I think it's the easiest way to make a MFCA "stand out". And don't get me wrong the Xena types are fun, but it's definitely less challenging than making femininity and intellect the stand out trait of your character. It's kind of like a jump scare in horror games, being Not Like Other Girls is lazy but effective, and people do enjoy it!

My favourite MFC are definitely the ones who are not uncomfortable with feminine traits and use their wits. Harder to stick the landing sometimes but worth it IMO!

I love Aelin from Throne of Glass for lots of reasons but one of them is that I really appreciate in addition to being a powerful fighting gal she is written to adore beautiful jewelry, clothes, makeup etc. it’s a pretty big part of her character! Would love to see a bigger variety of character traits in FMC for sure.

Did you read Throne of Glass?

I'm so sick of FMCs who refuse to be spoiled or get gifts. You're telling me you grew up in abject poverty, starving more often than not or under strict conditions, the love of your life wants to buy you nice stuff and make sure you eat all the things you like, and your first instinct is to refuse it and talk about how unmaterialistic you are?? Couldn't be me.

Well, at least Aelin likes her pretty, expensive, feminine shit 😂

I’m really glad someone brought this up, because my FMC that I’m writing at this moment doesn’t quite conform to this mold. Yes she can wield a weapon, but more importantly, she an empath, which is the greatest power in her arsenal. One of my favorite parts of the project is writing female friendship and the more subtle empowerment those relationships offer her, embracing her not for her past or her lack of shifting abilities (like the MMC) but because she has a true heart of gold 🥰

“being feminine is gross” was always pick me girl behavior

empowered FMCs are not the “new pick me girls”, because authors always love to do both as the same character

but those aren’t seem is every book, and having masculine traits doesn’t equal a character acting as if they’re better because of it, the pick me girl behavior only comes up when the FMC start acting as if she’s better because of it (what is WIDELY seen in RH)

{Blood Mercy By Vela Roth} has a great non- warrior FMC who is smart, capable, and loves gardening. She doesn't fight, but at the same time is in no way a damsel in distress. The latest book in the series just came out yesterday as well.

I don’t mind the badass warrior trope, I just get annoyed when the FMC suddenly becomes this skilled and deadly fighter with little to no training. Especially when they are fighting against men who have been training for years or almost their entire lives.

I love ACOTAR, but the series is bad about it. (Spoiler) Nesta trained for like 9 months and was suddenly this badass warrior who could defeat Illyrian men who have been training since they were 3.

On the other hand, I appreciate that in fourth wing (more spoilers) Violet spent all that time getting better, and she still wasn’t the best fighter. There were a lot of situations where she used her intellect to get herself out of a pickle, she used her powers, or somebody had to help her. Hell, she was poisoning people for weeks.

That’s honestly more interesting to read than a fight scene where the girl wins the fight and everyone is so shocked.

These types of MCs kill it for me so fast. It’s getting harder to find a romance fantasy with a MMC and not just in a supporting main role, I just can’t stand the “long mythical tough goddess name” who is a great fighter who can match any man any day and doesn’t believe in love.

I want me some flaws and “I don’t think I can do this….. oh look I was right I can’t! Ima go cry about it and continue on”

Started Cresent city and so far the main female character is nothing like that. She constantly wears stilettos, skin tight dresses and days she takes at least an hour to get ready to go anywhere. It was nice to hear!

Welcome to the western woke media.