Biden just did a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina. Complete opposite of yesterday.
I believe, in this context, “winning” was just not passing to the next realm on stage
Honestly I want to say Trump won the debate but considering he didn’t say a single truthful thing the whole night, I think both of them lost on their own merits.
Debating is easy when your response is making shit up on the spot. (Ie: 19 people said that was false)
Trump appeared more sane, stable, and in control of himself on stage last night than ever before. Sure he lied - but he’s always done that.
Considering he won based off his previous performances… bad as they are. This can only be considered a complete success to republicans.
"Win" is difficult to define for that debate. Trump won the expectations game because Biden had one job and he failed at it. Trump unloaded a ton of b.s. but we expect that from him.
Everyone lost. Biden lost. Trump lost. We lost. None of it felt good.
Someone said that the original goal was for Biden to look younger and capable and for Trump to seem tempered and more centric. I think both didn't do great but Biden did worse
Trump did look more tempered and centric than he ever did in the past 8 years imho.
The debate style really curbed his bad tendencies and made him look a lot better than he would have.
More tempered and centric? He kept saying that migrants are coming here from prisons and insane asylums and were here to kill all of us. He tried blaming J. 6 on migrants lol. He called the repeal of RvW a great thing. He was not centric at all my man.
Biden looked bad but the things he was saying were not bad when you actually take a look
More tempered and centric than he has been in the past 8 years. What you’re saying and what I’m saying doesn’t contradict each other.
I’m not comparing trump to Biden, rather Trump of today to trump of before. Trump did better yesterday on the debate floor than ever before. He didn’t interrupt, he managed to stay mostly within the mic limits, his attacks were during his timeframe.
This isn’t to say Trump is a better person than before. Simply that his performance has significantly improved compared to before. He’s telling the same lies but he looks more sane - largely because of the debate format helped curb his tendencies (which make him appear more crazed).
I’m not sure why you’re disagreeing with the statement at all.
Yes, even on his best day, he still lies 36 times, sometimes egregiously (legalized post-birth abortions, anyone?)
Trump won by getting a D- lol
Exactly.
America lost the debate.
Exactly. If the Blue Fairy appeared on stage, waved her wand, and forced both candidates to tell the truth at the expense of their nose, Biden would've won hands down. Of course, that's Pinocchio, not reality.
It's such an injustice to our political system that this bald-face lying, directly to voters in a sacred presidential debate, has become normalized and even celebrated.
One of the lasting shit stains Trump will have left this country is not on the Oval Office carpet. It's on the minds of nearly half the voters in this country who now believe that they can't trust anything that doesn't come from Newsmax or OANN or Alex Jones. We no longer work from a shared set of facts as we did just 10 years ago. And I don't know how or if we can ever fix that.
My own father, who helped pay for some of my medical school expenses, refused to believe me about COVID and instead bought the horseshit Alex Jones was pushing. The rot is deep, and Donald is the festering boil that emerges from that rot.
Yeah. Biden lied a few times, but trump lied all but one or two times last night. Pretty insane.
I was thinking about some on the right or left would say about who won. And it hit me---I don't know who won, but I know Americans lost.
Everyone lost that debate.
I mean he was the only one actually debating last night. So yeah, he won the debate. However, the media and public are shallow and only care for appearances. It's like Nixon vs Kennedy all over again, but one side actively doesn't care about the country.
Yeah he was debating his golf handicap with Trump and also telling his own share of lies too. Nobody won the debate last night because Americans across the board lost.
It’s almost like a teleprompter in the morning is different from a debate in the evening.
It’s almost like they should’ve realized this before a national broadcast.
Sundowning
Which is ironic because a day before debate I read on Reddit from one of the evergreen Biden apologists here that trump is the one that sundowns when we have seen ample evidence that trump doesn’t (that we’ve seen) and Biden does.
Trump routinely does those ufc night time events and Biden calls a lid at noon on the regular.
Seems that loyal democrat was projecting hard.
To be fair, Trump probably couldn't rattle off real statistics and facts like Biden tries to do. All Trump has to remember is "I'm the best. He's the worst." That's about as detailed as anyone expects him to get. But Biden goes into Ben Shapiro mode and fails at it. If he just said "That's malarky," he'd be hiding his problem as well as Trump.
A lot of comments are saying that, but it doesn't look like he's reading from a teleprompter to me. He's looking all around not just at one spot.
Are you new to politics? That's how teleprompters work. You place them at different sight lines so that your speech-giver can look back and forth. It's impossible that he doesn't have at least two teleprompters in front of him. No shot he's giving a speech without teleprompters. No one in 50 years has done so.
Yeah, I guess that make sense. You didn't have to be snarky about it though.
Reddit Law says I had to be snarky.
Sorry.
Yes, there are several screens--from what I've seen, usually 3 or 2 at a minimum.
“You aren’t seeing what you saw”
Yea its a lot easier to read off of a teleprompter than actual respond to live questions/attacks in real time.
With the level of “bad” of last night’s debate, I pretty much wouldn’t even expect him to be able to read this well from a teleprompter. So for dems this should be maybe a bit heartening, but there should still be concern over what the f last night was. Can he not speak extemporaneously anymore?
Even if Biden spends the rest of his campaign doing these scripted events, if he performs this well, it will be a boost for him after last night’s nightmare. Expectations are bottomed-out.
Joe Biden has not had to speak extemporaneously in over 16 years. When you're VP or President, or a candidate for those offices, your speeches are neatly written for you and loaded on the prompter. And when you're debating against an ordinary opponent (e.g., Paul Ryan or the Democrats in 2020), you have your rehearsed talking points ready to go. Because debates with ordinary politicians, while challenging, are also fairly predictable and easy to prepare for if you have the right people doing their research.
The only thing that was abundantly clear to me about Biden last night was that he is a terrible off-the-cuff speaker. While I wouldn't recruit him for middle school debate club, I also don't think ad-lib is a big part of running the country. Helpful as a candidate, certainly, but not as president.
Trump, for his part, was completely disconnected from reality. Some wise person in his campaign clearly coached him to say whatever comes to mind, with no regard for veracity, as long as he could look energetic. Because the debate would be graded on optics, not substance. And they were spot on. I guarantee you, if Trump were forced to tell only truths, he wouldn't be able to string three words together. Making shit up is easier than recalling facts and data.
If I'm coaching Biden, I'm telling him he needs to resist agonizing over minutia and stick to a broader message with lines that are thoroughly rehearsed ahead of time. Leave the on-the-spot retorts to the fact-checkers. Voters know damn well that blue states aren't murdering babies after they're born. There's no need to let yourself get baited and flustered by that. Had I been debating Trump, I would've simply said "There's only one category of people who are dying because of our abortion laws. And it's women and girls in Texas and Idaho." That's it. Done. Leave it at that and move on.
Actually, the law in 21 states, ethics articles in medical journals, and studies show that post-birth abortion babies are killed or left to die every year. So while the media prefers to state that Trump lied, it is actually the media that is lying.
The truth is ugly. It is uglier when people are murdering and killing legally.
And someone ELSE writing the speech.
Breaking News: Presidents don't write their own speeches.
False. Trump improvised a shark vs electric boat scenario all on his own, and everyone there clapped for a full 29 minutes uninterrupted.
Why is this a scenario to discuss at all?
You’re telling me, honestly, that you’ve never had to choose between dying from electrocution in the ocean from your electric battery boat…and a shark attack? You sir, haven’t lived, if that is the case.
Did this replace the cold snake story?
The life of a cult member must be glorious. They always seem so happy.
It’s true, I was the applause.
Yeah well, it's also a lot easier to gish gallop incohesive sentences like Trump instead of responding to the actual questions.
Furthermore, the day-to-day work of a president isn't a debate setting like yesterday.
But this isn't even the point really, point is - if you'd solely go by the comments from yesterday then watch the video above you'd ask yourself what are these people talking about.
Nonetheless, it's a fair point to say that the debate setting is probably a lot harder for him than this.
gish gallop
I understand what this term means in theory, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it used in a context I would agree with.
This is a gish gallop from just last night:
TRUMP: Just one second. He said we killed three people. The people we killed are al-Baghdadi and Soleimani, the two greatest terrorists – biggest terrorists anywhere in the world, and it had a huge impact on everything, not just border, on everything.
He’s the one that killed people with the bad water, including hundreds of thousands of people dying and also killing our citizens when they come in. We – we are living right now in a rat’s nest. They’re killing our people in New York, in California, in every state in the union because we don’t have borders anymore. Every state is now a border.
And because of his ridiculous, insane and very stupid policies, people are coming in and they’re killing our citizens at a level that we’ve never seen. We call it migrant crime. I call it Biden migrant crime. They’re killing our citizens at a level that we’ve never seen before. And you’re reading it, like these three incredible young girls over the last few days.
One of them, I just spoke to the mother, and they just had the funeral for this girl, 12 years old. This is horrible, what’s taken place. What’s taken place in our country – we’re literally an uncivilized country now. He doesn’t want it to be. He just doesn’t know.
He opened the borders, nobody’s ever seen anything like. And we have to get a lot of these people out and we have to get them out fast, because they’re going to destroy our country.
Just take a look at where they’re living. They’re living in luxury hotels in New York City and other places. Our veterans are on the street. They’re dying, because he doesn’t care about our veterans. He doesn’t care. He doesn’t like the military, at all. And he doesn’t care about our veterans.
Nobody had been worse. I had the highest approval rating for veterans, taking care of the V.A. He has the worst. He’s gotten rid of all the things that I approved – Choice, that I got through Congress. All of the different things I approved, they abandoned.
We had, by far, the highest, and now it’s down in less than half because he’s done – all these great things that we did – and I think he did it just because I approved it, which is crazy. But he has killed so many people at our border by allowing –
Did you watch the debate last night? Trump was doing some textbook gish galloping, which is saying so many lies so quickly that your opponent had no chance of correcting them.
I don't think anyone competent would have struggled to do that at all.
Ben Shapiro “debates” are basically the embodiment of gish gallops.
This is another one I've heard frequently and do not get at all. He always sounds like that. It doesn't come across as a debate tactic, so much as him just being a fast talker. It's not like it's hard to follow.
Because his main debate tactic is gish galloping. It’s like playing someone in a fighter game who just smashes the a button.
If it's a debate tactic, he would sound different outside of debates.
Trump’s inane ramblings were a textbook example of gish gallop
The teleprompter reading aside...that's a pretty miraculous recovery from that cold they said he had last night.
Idk he's still coughing after each line here
I suspect it's a side effect of medication.
If Biden is like the majority of my patients over the age of 50, he is probably on an ACE inhibitor for high blood pressure. Cough is a notorious side effect of that class of medications. They affect the nerves in the lungs. And anything that causes problems with the nerves in any way whatsoever is almost certain to get worse when you're under pressure.
That's been happening for a while now. Probably nothing serious, but he clearly has some sort of lingering respiratory issue.
Ah gotcha, never picked up on it
Mans got some acting chops i guess
If bro has acting chops then why not be charismatic last night?
Well, i meant acting sick, you cant act away old age
I was trying to explain this to someone earlier. I’m only 31, but I have a TBI that is bad enough that my doctor wants to put me on Alzheimer’s medication. I can be perfectly fine all day, but if I’ve had a particularly busy day I really struggle to form coherent thoughts by the end of the day. This guy is the fucking president and he probably worked all day long. It’s basically like your brain is a phone battery, if you’re on your phone all day long it needs charged at the end of the day, it may even become glitchy when battery levels are real low.
Seeing him be like that last night, but then like he was this morning after a good nights rest does make me feel confident that he is actually mostly fine. He can still read, he can still pick up on social cues (he pauses when the crowd gets particularly loud) his inflections are fine and he’s not going off script.
I think it’s pretty clear that he’s done just fine the last four years, so he’s clearly surrounded himself with decent advisors and decision makers. I’m fine with a president who leans on good people for support and isn’t making irrational decisions late at night. If everyone quit thinking about presidents as if they’re a monarch I think they’d be a lot less stressed about his mental decline.
he’s clearly surrounded himself with decent advisors and decision makers.
Which is why I'll vote for him, if he's alive and on the ticket in November.
It's said a lot that personnel is policy.
It's often why the media writes stories about the people around Trump like Stephen Miller making horrifying policy proposals.
When you vote for a president you're voting on their existing or hypothetical administration (via campaign staff typically) not just the person.
Exactly! Like we can sit around and speak in hypotheticals about Biden’s mental decline all day, but unless his entire staff also is 80 y/o with dementia then I’m not that stressed about it lol.
"His strength is unshakable" I dont know Jill... it seemed pretty shaken last night...
Isnt this a bad move by his team? they said he had a ''cold'' yesterday but now it seems allright? doesnt he open himself up for criticism like this??
He’s still coughing in between every line and he definitely sounded sick yesterday.
Wow, this rally energy proves that when he is reading from a speech writer he is ok, but the debate was the real Biden, without someone else's words.
I'm watching the liberal news and they don't see that it's a speech writer and he's just reading!
I'm not sure you can say the debate Biden is the real Biden any more than teleprompter Biden is. Both situations are petty far removed from what the job of president actually involves.
stutterers do speak much better with less pressure and scripts.
that being said, hes too old.
He also spoke MUCH better when he debated Paul Ryan in 2012. This isn’t just about a stutter.
Again he's too old. He's showing age.
But you can clearly see he stuttering a little and working around it back then too.
I mean, it's still his words whether he's had them written down in advance with help from his staff or whether he's asked to respond off the cuff. Suggesting something isn't him because it was carefully prepared with a great deal of forethought and practice is just plain absurd.
That's actually not true, staff speech writers have the speech written for him, and he has no idea what he's going to say. If it is a teleprompter, he has NO advanced warning. If it's cue cards, then he is handed them 20 minutes before the speech. I remember one time our teleprompter operator was given the wrong speech, and the candidate had no idea he wasn't there to talk about climate summit change and was there to condone the election results. He went on for 5 minutes talking about climate change, and the speech writer from his staff busted in the room screaming "wrong speech, wrong speech." The puppet on stage didn't even know why he was there and supposed to be talking about.
That's absurd. A guy being given the wrong speech and not immediately stopping talking doesn't make him a puppet. That is just a mistake. Absolutely Biden may not proofread every single word of every single speech, but if you think he doesn't actively have a hand in shaping his message before allowing his professional speech writers to fine tune it then you're kidding yourself. This is a needlessly cynical understanding.
Oh, so is this your opinion, or do you know this? You are telling me of how you THINK it might be, while I am telling you first hand experience of HOW IT ACTUALLY WORKS. People seriously have issues, you have no idea how the industry really works, but have a condescending reply and no clue. Again, I have first hand EXPERIENCE. You have what?
Can you prove that? Or are you just saying this and condescending anyone who dares to be skeptical? You're an internet voice, dude. And I get it, sometimes the internet voice does know what he talks about. I've certainly had those moments. But I also don't break down into a fit when someone dares to disbelieve me. If they want to ignore the guy who actually knows what he's talking about, they're the fool.
Biden shit the bed last night…. Biden is probably gonna lose the election because he shit the bed so badly last night.
This kind of “Look how great he does when he reads off a teleprompter and is surrounded by diehard Democrats” is some grade A copium.
How did trump do last night? Were you proud of the words he said?
Undecided voters weren't impressed by Fatty.
I 100 percent agree with you. I don’t think that anyone who wasn’t going to vote for Trump before last night is gonna vote for him after the debate. TBH I don’t think there’s that many people teetering on the edge of “should I vote for Trump or should I just stay at home?”, and there’s even less people still trying to decide whether to vote for Biden or Trump.
The problem is that I do think there’s a lot of “should I vote for Biden or should I stay home” voters. Biden is doing incredibly poorly with African-American and Gen-Z voters, 2 demographics that Biden needs to win the election and I’d wager that these 2 demographics are where a large percentage of these “still undecided” voters are coming from. I guarantee that Biden scared up a lot more of the “still undecideds” last night, maybe even drove some people away who were planning on for him, and didn’t pick up many voters to counter that. He really embarrassed himself last night and it’s gonna be hard to bounce back from that.
Women are the Silent Majority and they will stop the GOP from taking away their rights. It's not about Trump or Biden - it's about us.
I really hope you’re right.
Classic?
Its literally a debate performance judgements call between these two men... It's not like he asked you to compare between a dancing bear at a circus act and Joe Biden.
“Classic” as referring to whenever someone offers legit criticism of Biden… be it his cloudy mental state, lackluster appeal among groups that traditionally vote Democrat, or the fact that almost any other politician would’ve curbstomped Trump last night… one of Biden’s cheerleaders always says some weak ass rebuttal like “But TRUMP did this” and/or “I bet you like Trump”…. Every damn time lol.
They sound like kids tattling on each other. It’s like when little Jimmy gets in trouble for not doing his homework and says something like “Oh yeah, well Suzy didn’t brush her teeth this morning!!”.
Biden shit the bed last night
does not qualify as legit criticism.
People say that today, but in two weeks everyone will be saying that about Trump’s criminal felony sentencing. Sensationalism does strange things to the broader public
So was last night Havana syndrome?
It’s too late, no one is getting behind sleepy joe after that train wreck last night.
It turns out undecided voters were appalled by Trump's lies and refusal to answer questions. The Felon didn't gain any ground.
I’m with Joe unreservedly
Could you say it like this:
"I stand with Joe. Period. Full Stop."
Not true at all. Many people still remember Trumps presidency and will vote for any possible opposition. Unfortunately, Biden is really testing that practice
Ha ha ha yeah last night was just a fluke, it's not like Joe has been a total senile nitwit for the last 3 years......
Fox news: Biden's complete 180 proves he gets a shot of his special vitamins.
It’s not 9:00 pm at night
Jill Biden 2024.
That speech was powerful and honest.
I’ll gladly vote for Jill Biden.
Fuck it. LFG!
Maybe Jill should run, she speaks well.
Biden still speaks like gibberish.
Compared to Jill who's every sentence is crystal clear.
Maybe he heard Trump suggest that he would lose the debate on purpose, and borrowed that tactic last night.
He did take his immigration policy, this isn't that much of a stretch.
Looks like the nervous nellies and the pontificating pundits have it wrong: undecided voters weren't happy with Biden's performance but they recognized that Trump didn't answer any questions and lied his ass off. Biden may have lost support but Trump didn't gain any.
Real political work is much closer to the skills he showed in the rally than in the debate. He's apparently not great at off the cuff debating at this point in his life. Honestly, not too surprised about that. But this means the Dems need to get him in front of a teleprompter, with pre-written material as often as possible.
Ehh 50/50, he's still gotta run meeting and such, and those are more off the cuff like the debate
No, running a meeting is nothing like a debate. It's more off the cuff, certainly, but jumping to the conclusion that Biden can't have any conversation at all that isn't preplanned because he got flustered at a debate is a long leap.
I'm more thinking negotiations with foreign powers and such. You're right It's not a one to one, but being able to think on your feet is still extremely important for the job
I'm shocked that's even controversial. What do Democrats think the President does, give prepared speeches all the time?
Sure. But to say that because he wasn't sharp in one debate he can't negotiate with a foreign power is a long leap. Those skills are somewhat similar but not as similar as you might expect, and speaking as someone who's read A LOT of history books that go into great detail about the meetings presidents have had with foreign heads of state, you should take "good policy but slowing down" 10 times out of 10 over "terrible policy but quick on his feet."
Those types of negotiations involve, in your example, the Secretary of State at the very least. Our current Secretary of State has known and worked with Biden for some time, their conversations are going to be nothing like responding to debate questions on a national stage with a timer an an opponent that is a total loose cannon lol.
He’d always go with the cards, right? So what I learned early on, he has to read from them, and once he starts reading, I would interject, and then he didn’t know what to do and he would stumble, and then he would close it and just stop, and then Kamala would have to start talking. So it was a play I used every time.
Oh yeah, I'll bet Kevin McCarthy is an irrefutable source about how effective Biden is at his job. Would you like to ask Don Jr. too what he thinks?
Real political work? Like making decisions and debating with team members? How is thst like reading a teleprompter?
Most actual policy work in the White House is done through prepared briefs and other written resources. Even meetings with cabinet staff are usually after a brief presenting some sort of argument has been written and reviewed by the president. Almost all policy work at this level is pre-written.
And in front of people. Biden does best when he’s around people. Not sure why they decided no audience was a good idea, but I don’t think it was.
And in front of people. Biden does best when he’s around people.
You wouldn't know that from all the pundits saying he's sharp behind closed doors for the last few months. I think you're right but at this point even his best isn't going to be enough.
Biden does not have the mental faculties to continue as president. Even with all of his prep for a debate, he had many dementia moments. His display was so poor that the political subreddits were united for a day in agreement that we are doomed with these two candidate choices. I don't care how many rallies he does and how many drugs they put in him to keep him awake, he is too old and sick to continue. Here's to hoping one of the candidates at the very least is replaced by somebody with even a half decent mind.
The debate was bad for Biden, but his team probably learned from it. The election is 5 months away. He will have a decent DNC. Trump will have a lot of cringe moments. There is one more debate where hopefully Biden does better.
If he was senile or had dementia he couldn't do a performance like this. With dementia your brain will literally get too tired. I used to be a college department chair and we had a senior professor get lewy body dementia. He got to the point he could not focus enough to give lectures, even scripted ones.
Biden is just old. It was late, he was tired, he probably took some kind of medication that made him hoarse. That debate was too late for him; old people fade in the evenings unless they slept in that morning..
Also I think having an audience helps. I'm a more effective public speaker to an audience than I am to a recording studio.
The debate shouldn't have been at 9PM eastern time.
LMAO, was it past Grandpa's bedtime? Get real man. Does the president only work from 9 to 5 and then clock out?
Trump worked less than that.
“Last night, I watched with pride as president Biden won the debate.”
Even the crowd had a hard time cheering after that one.