OK so I was on Tinder and we were having an OK conversation. Then I joked maybe being a hermit wasn't such a bad thing in this crazy society. In response, he said maybe it's "preferable for females because of all the [awful] Tinder messages sent their way."
Have you ever had an interaction with a man using "females" that was at all tolerable? I can't honestly remember any, it's so damn cringy
wait isn't that just fishspeakers?
Lisan al-Gaib!!
their only experience of humanity was a crowbar coming at them down a steel corridor
Wisdom comes from the desert, polish comes from the city
Wait what? Are there real people still saying that shit? I was watching Friday Night Dinner and the awkward father always used females referring to his son's girlfriends. I always found the guy cringe and awkward. I laughed at his vocabulary as I thought it was just an exaggerated character. I didn't even think there are people who says this .
It’s crazy how a joke from the 2010s has become 2020s mainstream misogyny right?
People in the military, law enforcement, and certain emergency management/health care fields sometimes end up talking like that because of training. (The suspect was a male or patient is a 34 year old female). But they will do the same thing with males. If they use men and females then it is a flag.
I will say, even as someone who despises the men and females thing, I admittedly slip up from time to time as I’m a nurse and in the medical world it’s relevant and usually appropriate.
When it's a given that you're talking about a human, then it's appropriate. These days People in HC don't have the time to speak in full sentences. You will use the word as an adjective, female patient - that's appropriate. Somebody might ask "male or female?" but never "man or female?".
It's the plural that throws me.
Men and women, sure.
Males and females, no worries.
The female form is a popular art topic. Yup.
There's many females in art? No.
I like females who [insert mouth breathing fantasy]. No, gross.
Even if it wasn't a giant incel redpilling flag, just the grammar makes my eye twitch.
Words have power and grammar matters. You need a noun to make a real sentence, when you replace the noun with an adjective you get nonsense. When you replace woman with female you're dehumanizing a woman.
men and women - noun and noun
males and females - adjective and adjective -- (NOPE, I was wrong, not adjectives but used when speaking about animals. Humans have their own words men/women and it is reductive speech to use "females/males" about humans.
the female form - definite article, adjective, noun
There are many females in art - no noun in that sentence, a sentence needs a noun and a verb to be a full sentence. It's like saying "there's much red in art" - HUH? there are many colors, yes, but "red" is so random. Not a good sentence.
I like females who (don't bite) - is like saying "I like red" - it can kinda work but it's what a 4yo would say. you like red teeth? you like a red sky? you like red bones? you like red eyes? The sentence leaves a lot to the imagination if the person speaking it is older than 4.
edit: I stand corrected - thank you to those who had the patience and knowledge to educate me.
I realize I got tunnel vision. "Females" and "males" are not adjectives. My bad.
The reason it's disrespectful to use "females" and "males" is that they are generally reserved for animals. Human females have their own word "women", and human males have their own word "men".
I got angry and ended up with tunnel vision, had to take a step back and regain perspective - read a bunch of comments and learned more about grammar.
I apologize for that. I've got a lot of passion but clearly not as much knowledge of grammar as I thought.
I am not trying to attack you; in fact, I agree with your overall premise. But wouldn’t the phrase “males and females” be nouns in this context? Adjectives are not typically written in plural form, and “female” can either be a noun or adjective, albeit in scientific or medical contexts as other commenters have pointed out. (You can check multiple online dictionaries for this.)
Technically, the sentence “there are many females in art” does make sense grammatically, as “females” here would refer to women — a noun. The reason it feels odd, though, is because it is connotatively and contextually out of place. While “women” and “females” can have the same definition, “females” is much more clinical and “women” is generally more humanising and common in everyday speech. This leads the word “female” to feel dehumanising when used in a daily context.
Also, the example with the colour red is a little confusing as red is both a noun and adjective. I think saying “I like red” or “I like red the most” in response to a question like “what is your favourite colour?” would make sense. I agree with you but there are a few misconceptions in this explanation.
I stand corrected. I realize I didn't know as much about grammar as I thought.
Well, now I know more so it's not all lost.
Anyhow, you're correct. "females" and "males" are not adjectives.
I have now learned that the reason using "females/males" when talking about humans is that is it "reductive speech". "females" and "males" is generally used when talking about animals. Humans have their own words "man/woman" so using nouns that are generally reserved for animals reduces humans to "livestock" - that is why it's disrespectful.
I apologize
“Female” and “male” are both adjectives and nouns. Misogynists use the word “female” to dehumanise women. Both of these things are true.
The fact that these words function as different parts of speech does not in ANY WAY detract from the problematic usage of the word “female” in certain contexts. We don’t have to make shit up to fight misogyny.
Note: Please don’t respond with a snarky “hope that helps” or “you’re welcome” as you’ve done repeatedly in this thread, since you aren’t helping and no one is thankful for your alternative facts.
Very good point
Ok, you're right, I got tunnel vision and angry. That was not helping.
I have been educated and understand that I was incorrect.
The reason using "females" and "males" instead of "women" and "men" is not grammatical like I thought. Another redditor brought to my attention that those words are generally used when talking about animals. It is reductive speech, it reduces humans to "animals". That is why it's disrespectful.
I appreciate all the redditors who took the time to educate me, you included. I'll do my best to contain my snark and anger going forward.
It’s perfectly acceptable as an adjective, not a noun. Female person, female human, etc. are fine, just longer than saying women. “Females” … cringe.
I mean, it’s very typical for us to say “this is a 38-year-old female” and keep going with whatever we are saying.
Honestly I think they were agreeing with you - the healthcare usage is an adjective of an implied noun (the patient).
I’ve been really brain dead today so I’m thinking you’re right.
With the hours nurses work I wouldn't be surprised, don't worry and take care of yourself as best you can!
In a health context, “patient” is implied, some other contexts too, but those are the exceptions to the rule… in general day to day conversation amongst regular folk, it’s a flag
38 yr old female, with [insert whatever relevant info.. yadda etc.] is all descriptive
You’re absolutely right. This is like the third time my adhd has won today and I read something wrong.
I've found there are times when referring to someone as girl/girls is way too diminutive but they also seem young enough that calling them woman/women almost feels creepy. I used to think "male/female as noun" was the solution to this but yeah with the appropriation by incel/redpill types, that's even worse now.
Air Force here. Yeah, I get caught with the female and male thing a lot. But I say both. It's just become so cringe for me. Also my favorite micro feminism is to always put the female first, even when naming a couple I will put the woman's name first. I also do this with kids, it's girls and boys, never boys and girls.
i do the same micro feminism! in wedding cards i always write the bride’s name first
even when naming a couple I will put the woman's name first
Honestly doing it pathologically is cool if it makes you happy. But to me there is always a "right" order to name a couple. It kind of depends on the sound of their names or their length but also on their personalities. It is a "Tom&Jerry" not "Jerry&Tom" kind of thing.
It would feel very awkward to say "Gentlemen and Ladies" when doing a hosting however. It just does not have the same ring to it.
Veteran here who used to be married to someone in healthcare. It’s a conscious effort to say “man and woman” even after a decade. Many of my friends are military or healthcare so it stays fresh in my vocabulary. It definitely doesn’t sound great when you’re using it with people who aren’t used to it, but it’s also not necessarily a red flag. The intent behind the use of the word matters
True. I also don’t recommend dating people in the military or LFOs.
I also don’t recommend dating people in the military
As a former soldier, I'd say - most definitely of all - be extremely hesitant about dating someone that's really happy/proud of being in the military - especially if they've only been involved for a couple of years. This applies to law enforcement as well, but the barrier to entry in the military is lower also brow-furrowingly low and the "social credit" that comes from it is potentially higher. A certain kind of person gravitates towards some of these dynamics in an unhealthy or harmful way.
I'd say this advice actually goes double for those who display intense military pride despite never being in the military (or have suspiciously limited evidence to back up claims that they did). To say the least in the least offensive way, 'military pride' correlates strongly with anti-feminist ideologies.
Are there good people? Absolutely! But... In my experience, Good People™ are not happy about being in the military and they don't integrate that experience into their self-identity, they're just passing through and/or doing their service in exchange for benefits or a way out of worse circumstances. Even those people are going to be experience near-constant professional/personal stressors - or straight up trauma - which makes maintaining a healthy relationship extremely difficult.
This isn't even considering the fact that they might vanish for 6-12 months at a time, potentially forever (ded), and/or experience other near-constant disruptions to typical lifestyle circumstances (eg: "Sorry, babe, I have to go crawl around in mud for 14 days in the middle of Ohio for training.", "Oops, gotta wake up at 3 AM for the fourth time this month because some dickhead decided that we should count the number of bolts in storage", etc.)
It's simply rarely ever worth it to get wrapped up in that if you're a civilian - especially if you're a woman (due to typical sociocultural relationship dynamics). There's often something appealing about a person in uniform beyond the fact that they may be confident, assertive, physically fit, so on, but it's important to think about what you might be getting into.
Is it really that big of a deal? Is it going to ruin your life? ...Yes, it actually might. I've met countless women and several men whose desire to make a relationship with their soldier "work" has resulted in immense and needless discomfort/sacrifice even when things do work out.
Maybe this all sounds quite silly, but any women (or men) who know exactly what I'm talking about will probably chime in to say they wish they realized this years before making a decision to invest deeply into a relationship whose cost was later determined to dramatically outweigh its value.
Edit: I feel like I have to say this to spare myself from some stupid direct message... For the record, I am a man - this is not an 'anti-man comment' even if my ideals do lay somewhere between 'vicious feminism' and 'rational futurism'.
Just a reminder that just because you're military doesn't mean you're a "soldier" or constantly deploying etc. You can be in the medical, cyber, etc(A whole bunch of non combat related office environment type fields) and still be in the military. There's a suprising amount of misconceptions floating around about this. What branch you're in also plays a huge role in terms of the culture and how that might affect the individual.
You are correct.
Not everyone wearing a nifty camouflage uniform is out there swerving to dodge potential IEDs while beaming cans of Rip-It™ at the heads of nearby Iraqi children. Like I said, there are great people in the military. And like I didn't say, one's role in the military will absolutely relate to how disruptive a relationship with them might be or how neuropsychologically wang-jangled that person might be.
This was something I was going to add, but I felt it was outside of the scope of the message since what I'm describing does still affect the quality of relationships in the same way - I, myself, am one of the non-combatants you describe (to the surprise of no one, I'm sure).
I'd be pretty comfortable with saying that certain roles and professions are more or less likely to have Good People™ than others. Some of those roles involve cognitive aptitude requirements that 95% of people simply couldn't hit if they tried - even beyond the often-accelerated training programs that must be passed prior to full employment in those roles anyway. Those people are more likely to be insightful or thoughtful in a productive way, sure. And some of those professions are only accessible within a military context. They're probably not gung-ho and relentless in their patriotic outlooks though.
While dating an infantryman is much more likely to be more difficult or ill-advised than being straight-up married to an intelligence analyst, that doesn't necessarily mean that the issues I describe above will be absent. Nor does it mean that a relationship with an infantryman is destined for failure or even discomfort.
If you're at the point where you're thoughtfully assessing the sociocultural or psychological attributes relating to an individual's specific role within a profession, you're probably not as likely to fall for or tolerate an abusive/disruptive relationship anyway.
This warning is meant more for people who don't know that they don't know what they're getting into, not those with an eye for calculated judgement calls.
I'd say the barrier to entry for law enforcement is equally low.
Absolutely - Its a job path you can be deemed "too smart" for.
In my experience, Good People™ are not happy about being in the military and they don't integrate that experience into their self-identity, they're just passing through and/or doing their service in exchange for benefits or a way out of worse circumstances.
Preach
This. All of this.
The badass, female orthodontist I worked for referred to women as “females” and she was previously in the air force. It weirded me out at first and then I realized that was why. Totally ok in that context - she was very analytical, taught, and referred to women as “females” in a biological sense.
Now the 80 year old doctor before her? When he said females, even though I knew it was being used in a medical sense, I knew what he was really saying. It was also confirmed later when he said he didn’t like to hire females because they all “go off, get married, have babies, and quit”.
Sometimes you gotta go with your gut.
Can confirm. I’m not military but I have a lot of friends who are. Both “males” and “females” get used with equal frequency, and that’s the only time it doesn’t bother me. In almost any other case, “females” is a red flag for me.
I'm a software developer in the medical industry. I remember a few years ago when we added support for non-binary genders. Hour and hours of meetings discussing functional requirements
I pretty much just referred to everything and everyone as "they" for a few months after that.
This actually indirectly touches the issue in this type of language. The usage you describe refers to men and women discussed in a clinical setting where this type of language is acceptable. In professional setting the terms male and female are used as descriptive features of a patient/suspect in question and adds certain professional distance to the person.
The issue arises when this type of clinical language is used in a casual setting. Referring to women as "females" essentially reduces them to only their sex. It is also verbiage used for animals which adds to the dehumanizing part. Using the distancing term in this setting adds an imbalance where the speaker sees themselves as a person and the "female" as something lesser and only for their sex.
So, the language in itself is not bad, and the clinical nature is useful in clinical settings. But taking that clinical language into a casual setting and using it only one-sidedly makes it dehumanizing and disrespectful.
Isn't being in law enforcement a red flag itself. Something about much higher rates of domestic abuse.
Also journalists, though that feels like a dead profession these days.
I was specifically warned against the practice in journalism. Some writers pick it up from police blotters, parroting the source material.
A good journalist would never use an adjective as a noun.
This. It’s a red flag for sure, but definitely not proof of anything. Note that ESL people often also use “females”.
again, as many people pointed out already, it's the use of "females" right along with "men" that is so creepy. if they say males/females, weird but not a flag, but men and females is just creepy.
That'd be more of an orange flag then, at most
As an adjective, it's completely fine. For instance, the female reproductive system. It's also fine in medical or scientific contexts: If I was a doctor, I may write on a note "a 32-year-old female presents with a headache and nausea for the past 3 days." It's also fine when referring to female animals.
Also, people with scientific training. There is an online subset of people who see using "female" as offensive, but, in the broader culture, "male" and "female" are usually used as adjectives or as interchangeable with "man" and "woman."
I'm a woman, and a feminist, and I've used "female" and "male" for my entire life without any issue until recently when it seems to have become misogynistic. It comes from my educational background and experience with research. I think a lot of people don't know that incels have created a different environment around the word "female."
Yes. I've never thought about this until recently. I do have a somewhat scientific background. Massage therapy and personal in training.... Maybe this is why I thought nothing of it.
I agree that many didn't realize it's a misogynistic term. It would be nice if people gave most of us the benefit of the doubt rather than going straight for the jugular.
Male/female is just more clinical than men/women, and men/women not only denotes that you're talking about a human but a mature human, so sometimes, depending on context the word "men" or"women" might be less accurate than "male" or "female" because it holds true in younger age groups too.
Say, for instance, if I'm administering first aid to a woman who has collapsed and I have a phone up with a call to emergency services. I wouldn't likely say "woman" because I'd want to note her age with more specificity, as there's a huge difference between a 20 year old and a 90 year old medically. It'd be "I'm here with a young female who has collapsed at X location and is in urgent need of medical assistance. I've done Y and Z so far, and this is her current state."
Alternatively, if I were to talk about gender disparity in mathematics, I'd likely say that "mathematics is male-dominated" rather than "mathematics is dominated by men" because the statement is equally true when talking about boys and male adolescents, so saying "men" adds a suggestion that the statement only applies to adults in mathematics while "male" leaves age out of the equation.
There's nothing wrong with the terms male/female when used in their appropriate context, just when they're used in the wrong context it comes across as creepy as those joke videos where you have an undercover cop going up to kids saying "hello fellow children".
imo being military is already a red flag, but since you're probably americans i guess you'll disagree
American here. I fully agree. I would never date someone in the military. My father is an army vet and the way he and his military buddies talked about women was absolutely disgusting. And my brother was dishonorably discharged from the Navy for “getting into a brawl”, but what really happened was that he was stalking a woman on the same ship and friends of hers beat the ever loving shit out of him for attempting to rape her. I don’t speak to either of them anymore.
Yes this. I also use male and females a lot. I don't think it necessarily means anything bad unless it's coupled with other mysoginistic views
I’m a LEO and a feminist and I slip up from time to time even though I try really hard not to.
Can confirm. Had to rid myself of the habit when I got out.
Also, if you're talking about groups that cross the adult-child boundary...
But these men don't call men "males." They only refer to women as "females."
"Female what? HDMI ports?"
I absolutely hate that electrical components are referred to that way.
I like to pretend our genital configurations are named after the electrical components.
So not only to modernize things past the 1950s, but also because it gets ambiguous with more complicated modern connectors, many engineers have switched over to pin and socket, or some variation of that.
But who’s the pin and who’s the socket in your relationship /s
lemme check my calendar.
Ah the rocker toggle switch
I'm really looking forward to the terminology of "master" and "slave" getting deprecated. Sadly there are a few good suggestions and IEEE can't decide.
Thankfully fewer places are using that. Like GitHub (and many other git repos) used to use "master" as the base branch name, but now "main" is being used more.
My guess is GitHub's meeting was "it's called ... what? No, push the change out to every repository this week, we're not asking."
I'm looking at houses and they're "primary" bedrooms.
They could just call it "main" and "support" and they wouldn't even have to re-silk a million devices. (MOSI / MISO for SPI being ubiquitous.)
They actually did give you time. They strongly suggested changing it right away, but they gave time until they pushed the change. Would have broken many people's pipelines if they just flipped it themselves all at once.
I can still call my main branch master. Github has no issues with it. They are just naming the initial branch on a new repo main instead of master, as git does.
That does make more sense, but I thought it was funny. I've been mostly out of the coding game for a decade.
Can imagine that thought process if they had just done it.
"Hey why are my scripts breaking? Invalid branch name? Hmmm looks like GitHub changed the name, wonder why they did that. It's main now? What was wrong with mas- ohhhhhh."
I see on HGTV/Magnolia, they’ve stopped referring to the main bedroom as the Master & instead refer to it as the “primary”
Still not quite as bad as master/slave. That’s being phased out, but it permeated all engineering nomenclature for over a hundred years (master cylinder and slave cylinder, for example).
Yeah I agree!
Same, it makes my stomach absolutely churn
Ferengi? Everyone knows the fe-male hu-MONS shouldn't be wearing clothes.
Best Star Trek Series.
Best sci-fi series.
The Grand Nagus, probably
Ha! I always say this in real life to people who say "females".
I wonder if he even had good ear lobes
I forget which sub it is, but they have automod post a pic like this whenever someone posts female.
It might be a red flag, or it might be from ignorance. Either way, how he handles being corrected and challenged will be informative.
My husband did this once while we were dating. We had already known each other for a few years and had been dating for a couple months, so I had a good read on his personality. I explained why referring to women as "females" was dehumanizing and othering, he had an Ah-Ha moment, and has never done it since. To him, it was just some vocabulary he picked up from playing too many video games, not a symptom of a larger misogynistic problem.
how he handles being corrected and challenged will be informative.
This is the biggest thing. It can say a lot.
I just went through this with a boyfriend and he couldn’t handle being corrected and challenged which led to me breaking up with him
Me too! Not over the same topic, but me bringing up that I wasn't comfortable with something he did nuked the relationship and he ghosted after 2 years of being together.
Omg, we weren’t together that long but very similar. I brought up some concerns of mine and things that made me uncomfortable and his reactions were invalidating to say the least. It was funny because at the beginning of our relationship he said he wanted me to communicate things to him, but I guess he didn’t really mean it. The way he laughed at, got defensive, made excuses and minimized my concerns killed the relationship. I just simply couldn’t view him the same way and didn’t feel comfortable approaching or communicating my concerns to him and what kind of a relationship is that where you can’t be vulnerable?
Yuuup. It was the easiest breakup of my life, though. I had one issue and I brought it up and boom! Done. I lost respect for the guy and was honestly skeeved out by the way he handled everything, so there were no feelings of wanting to be back with him.
Same happened with me. Early in dating, my bf said "females" and I stopped him to point it out and explained the issue. He had never heard of anyone having a problem with it before. He didn't even know where he picked up saying it. He caught himself doing it a couple times after that and would quickly correct himself. He hasn't done it since.
I agree that the response to being challenged on it is the real indicator of who the person is.
Agreed. Sometimes they just don't know, and to be fair it is a somewhat recent societal shift in consciousness around that term. A friend of mine said it recently, so I let him know that usage was offensive to women and why. He was surprised, a little chagrined, and thanked me for letting him know. I have zero doubt he put in the effort to remove that from the lexicon.
It is a symptom of a larger misogynistic problem though, that misogyny permeates everywhere and is perpetuated by people who aren't aware of how their language has misogynistic undertones
Agreed. Its sad/infuriating that misogyny is so saturated into media and culture that we (everybody of all sexes and genders) need to UNlearn it.
When I said a larger misogynistic problem, I meant that it was fortunate that my then-boyfriend wasn't secretly a misogynist. He just had some more unlearning to do.
Can you explain to me why it's derogatory? English isn't my first language.
Because it is dehumanizing, as it is using what is predominantly an adjective on the place of a noun.
Female is an adjective. It could be referring to any animal. Maybe it is a kangaroo? A dog?
It reduces a woman to her biology, just another animal.
Ignorance is a red flag in my book. At my age. I ain't got time or patience to get involved with people who don't understand Sexism 101. I've rolled those dice way too many times in past friendships & relationships, and it usually ends poorly.
I’m 40, I’m not interested in educating a man anymore. If you haven’t reached your fully-formed state by now, I’m not going to be the one.
I hear "female" instead of "woman" and immediately think of an animal vs a person. For example, I'd describe a dog, cat, or another animal as female/male. I'd describe humans as man or woman.
Oh yes, some even have it in their profile.
Deal breaker.
I see the difference between female and females like the difference between black and blacks. One is a description the other is dehumanising
Maybe he’s a Ferengi?
Maybe if he was a Ferengi?
Using "female" as an adjective - fine, usually
Using "female" as a noun - almost always creepy and dehumanizing, especially when it's "men and females"
For no reason now and completely in honor of this post I will from this day forward pronounce "females" to rhyme with "tamales".
I'm cool with it as long as the guys are referred to as "males" cuz at that point we are talking medical terms right?
ick... If you like the guy you can try explaining why it's so gross, but if you get any pushback I'd drop him. "I want to keep disrespecting you" isn't a great look.
Hyumon Feemales - Ferengi. I actually typically picture the men who say this tend to look like ferengi.
It's funny, but I never get offended when the ferengi say it. But when actual dudes say it, ugh so icky.
I always picture comic book guy from the simpsons
IMO using the word "females" with any regularity is context dependent but usually a giant red flag. I'm former military and I understand what a lot of people are saying but I never professionally felt like using in the plural was something I needed to do regularly. Male and female as singulars tend to be much less problematic but if someone is saying some shit like "You're a female, you wouldn't understand." that's also problematic..
The best thing you could do to sus out if this is problematic mindset vs problematic language out of habit is to just politely ask why they preferred to use that terminology. Sadly, many men, even if they aren't complete dirt bags, pick up their way of speaking from the people they surround themselves with. The good ones will see how it's problematic in conversation. You have make them answer why they said though, not lead them to the answer.
I watched a lot of TNG when I was younger, and now I can't hear 'females' without picturing a Ferengi saying it. Not a big leap for my imagination, but still..
I usually call them out on it or ask why they used that term specifically. The response is very telling.
I hate it. The word "female" is an adjective that describes a noun. So I always think "a female 'what'?"
As soon as I hear a dude call women females in a casual setting I just immediately picture him as a Star Trek Ferengi and can’t take him seriously anymore.
I don’t even blink about it really tbh. But like the other person on the thread who doesn’t, I’m also in medical. It’s about the most neutral, least-loaded term one can use, which is why it’s prevalent in healthcare and policing.
Samee. I never got the issue. To me the tone matters a lot. Also the person saying it. Basically context
Totally. And I agree with the man-and-females note as well … no no … consistency.
I feel the same way and honestly feel like I’m in crazy town when some go apeshit over it. Yes, if a guy repeatedly uses the word instead of women or girls, it’s a red flag. But to see or hear it one time in a whole paragraph of other words isn’t the end of the world. I guess working in medical/healthcare does make one less reactive to it.
Honestly, 60% of it for me is guilt by association.
Outside of medical contexts, the correlation of men who say this and men who are covert (or not-so-covert) misogynists is just too strong.
I don’t want a man who isn’t icked out by it, or can’t compartmentalize the terms he uses at work.
I mean we’ve all got our thing. I’ve said “going out with the girls” and been accused of infantilizing women. I’ve heard people freak out about “lady”, that it’s a social construct putting unrealistic expectations on women. My ex’s dad used to call women “broads” - in his day and culture, a cute inoffensive nickname but I hated it. I don’t know that we’d all ever agree on one thing.
I vote we bring back “dame.”
Saying it is prevalent in policing isn't the rousing endorsement you might think it is.
I encountered this a lot when I was in the military. It's part of the standard way of speaking for reports and such. Dehumanizing and "precise". Always gave me the ick then, still does now.
I did too a decade ago. It was so strange going through basic. All of the drill sergeants, including the female sergeants (this is proper use, as an adjective), would say “female” as a noun in a way that felt rather derogatory. If it matters, I’m male, and it gave me the same gross feeling from day 1 and it hasn’t left me. It was never “the female soldiers…” but rather “the females…”
Once upon a time "females" might have just been poor grammar that'd be ignored without raised eyebrows.
Today, fellas... you're on notice. It's officially a problem since we've noticed its connection to misogyny.
oh yea r/MenAndFemales
It could be a good test by calling him out on it & seeing how he responds. Some people are just genuinely used to saying it, but someone who actually doesn’t want to be an asshole will listen when called out on it
As a non native english speaker i am surprised that it is a thing, i use female often depending on context, not aware that it could be inappropriate. Can you explain why it would be ? Thank you
I just posted this in reply to another comment, so I’ll paste it again here:
“Female” as an adjective, when appropriate, is fine. “Female” as a noun, when appropriate, is also fine, except that the circumstances under which it is appropriate are really narrow: pretty much only in the course of medical or police work. Also, many people (mostly men, especially a certain flavor of men on the Internet) use “men” for men but call women “females” instead of women. “Women” is a whole-person term that does not reduce people to their genitalia or reproductive function. It happens so often there is a subreddit devoted to examples: r/menandfemales. Read some posts there and you will get a better sense of why this is objectionable.
Additionally, “female” when referring to sports is often a tricky way for transphobic people to … be transphobic. The Venn diagram of “female” vs “women” is not a perfect circle, so transphobes look for ways to use terminology in ways that are exclusive rather than inclusive, to serve their agendas better.
weird when they say men and females. and they know it's wrong too, today i caught a blurb of a convo a coworker was saying to another , something about females, then when he saw me he switched to ladies. i mean at least he tried but like c'mon
Run. Just run. If it bugs you enough to post on reddit about it, it's not gonna work.
Nah. Hard pass. “Females” is literally de-humanizing. A plant can be female. A goat can be female. Most people don’t say “males”. They say “men”. It’s an automatic NO if I hear a man say “females”. (Barring medical staff/LO).
🚩 🚩 🚩
Unless in some very rare cases (as mentioned by others, such as a slipup by medical student or doctor etc.) it's almost always a red flag. It's just a very weird thing to be referred to as. Most adjusted and somewhat mature guys won't say "females", that's just such a specific kind of weird. Especially nowadays, when "females" has been used by certain influencing people to just devalue and dehumanize women. Overall, 'females' us just really really weird and if there isn't an immediate obvious reason for that word I'd take a big detour around such a guy
I called that out once cause I thought it felt sexist and got shot down.
Theres some hidden sexism in there, right?
It’s not even hidden
NOPE, using the adjective "female" as a noun is a huge red flag to me. It's dehumanizing and reveals his superiority complex.
Ok as a guy can you please explain to me why it’s dehumanizing? I’ve never heard someone use “Males” and took it as a dehumanizing term? I just want to better understand.
Downvoted for trying to understand? Really?
It probably sounds less dehumanizing to men because men aren’t as easily dehumanized as women are.
We don’t like it because it makes us sound like science experiments and it makes men sound like incels.
And they usually have more of a vested interest in dehumanizing women.
If "male or female" is used as an adjective in a sentence then it is not dehumanizing.
For example, saying "the female doctor" or "the male football player" is not dehumanizing because there's a noun - doctor, football player. We all know that only humans are doctors and only humans play football. The adjective is used as an adjective, it tells you something about the noun.
However, when you say "the female ran" - then you're not specifying what type of female - it could be a dog, a giraffe, or a bug and that makes it dehumanizing. You're not acknowledging "the females" humanity - you're deliberately NOT referring to them as human. It's subtle but powerful.
I hope that helps and thank you for trying to understand.
edit: spelling
That actually does help a lot. I think since I would have never used “female” in your example I was having a hard time putting it into a way that would be dehumanizing.
I'm glad I could help.
How often have you heard men being referred to as males?
You kinda answered your own question.
You've never heard someone say "that male said to me.." or "did you see that male" or "males always do x". Me neither. But I don't have to go far to find people, mostly men, using that language to describe a woman or women generally.
Using 'female' as an adjective is usually just dandy. 'The female cat' or 'the female doctor', is as neutral as you might say 'the male dog' or 'the male nurse'. This use of 'female' as a noun in English is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and communities seeking to dehumanize women. Especially when it's plural, the 'females'.
You misunderstood. I’ve definitely heard “Male” be used that way. I just moved on and didn’t think anything of it. I still dont understand how it’s dehumanizing?
In most peoples experience, there is a substantial asymmetry in people referring to women as females, and men as males.
If someone is legit doing both, maybe it's just a language thing, but in most cases, the term female is used in a less than equal way. and it very often comes from a certain type of guy.
I’ve never heard someone use “Males” and took it as a dehumanizing term?
I sincerely doubt you've ever heard anyone use "males" in this way at all. Have you ever wondered why that is?
With all due respect I don’t come here for you to doubt my experiences. I’m here trying to understand, so I can be better prepared when my daughter hits her teenage years.
If you’re just going to comment immediately throwing away my personal experiences like Im lying for some reason then maybe this isn’t the type of group I should learn from.
I’m attempting to have a discussion while comparing experiences so I can hopefully understand the disconnect on why some see “female” as dehumanizing and some don’t.
Cringe
I can't respect anyone who refers to women as "females" like that. I have noticed a disturbing trend of girls doing this too. I have no clue why they do. It is gross that these kids are growing up thinking this is normal.
There’s a chance, however small, that this could be just ignorance, not knowing any better, or residue from their workplace (medical, EMS, etc). I’d say to keep it in mind and try to prod their views on other things. Bring up the man vs bear topic, how they feel about a woman being the bread winner, a woman wanting to keep their last name after marriage, a woman proposing, etc.
And if you do end up going out to a bar or something, bring one of those scrunchy drink covers and slip it on your drink. It’s a really good litmus test for men.
I can be a language thing. I live in an area where a lot of people learn Gaelic when they are young, people only speak it around the kids until they are around 3 then switch to English.
I've found a lot of them seem to default to saying female instead of women/woman compared to people that grew up in the same area but didn't learn Gaelic that way.
Men referring to women as: “females” or “bitches” or anything other than “women” is not tolerated by me. I will just cut off whatever we have going on.
Nah thats weird as hell. Anyone who refers to women as females is a red flag
Nope. If he’s constantly using the word females over women, he may be hinting to you his views on women align with other men who are the same. You can try telling him it makes you uncomfortable but that likely won’t change his views.
my moms boyfriend uses “female” and its so fucking annoying. hes really nice and shit but i cant stand when he says that. cant wait to move out😭
Nope. Especially not when it's a guy who would possibly have replaced it with b-ches if he was speaking to his friends.
Nowadays I switch tinder chats over to voice as soon as possible because it is a complete waste of time to chat via text. This way I can vet them over the phone before I waste an hour drinking coffee with them.
Even my girlfriend has referred to women as "females" and occasionally still does. I wouldn't read TOO much into vernacular specifically, but moreso the actual context into which he uses it. Is he disparaging or judging women when he uses the word, or is he innocently interchanging "females" and "women"? How does he view women in general outside of specifically referencing "females"?
I dont know why youre being downvoted, youre clearly right
Because some men lurk here and downvote any woman who dares to utter a single negative word about men. If that doesn't work, then they send you dick pics and rape threats.
That would be an instant block from me, OP.
Stop being allergic to the word "female". Stop it. It's uncritical, un-nuanced thinking. As noted by others here, it is common parlance in certain circles and does not necessarily denote misogyny. Also consider different language backgrounds, because in many English-speaking countries the word is used as a perfectly correct alternative to "women". The context is what matters.
"Females get all kinds of horrible messages on Tinder, I understand why you'd want to go hermit in our society" -- you are a blithering idiot if you take this as misogyny.
"Unbreakable! They alive, dammit! Cos FEmales are strong as hell!" -- this is also ok, surely.
"Real men want good females to be their mates, and smart females want real men, it's evolutionary biology" -- ok now you may be on to something.
Calling women “females” is dehumanizing. So that is a red flag.
the word ‘female’ has been used in derogatory ways to devalue women and the use of female when talking about women has negative associations. Calling women “females” strips us of our value and gives the idea that women’s sole purpose is reproduction, and that we are the same as animals. ‘Female’ can apply to any species, while ‘woman’ refers specifically to humans.
If anyone knows that and continues to do it, they are not worth sticking around
So is the use of “male” equaly offensive?
Men don't call men males outside of clinical and criminal conversations, so that is your answer. These men will literally say "men and females" for a reason.
I haven’t seen anybody do that, nowhere near the epidemic of men referring to women exclusively as “females”. I’m sure we can also agree that men do not face the same societal discrimination and oppression that women do, which also contributes largely to this problem. However I would say yes, because (when not talking in a medical context or scientifically about the male human body) it would be equally reductive and I would think harmful to not refer to a man as a man, and instead call them “males”.
Hard no.
It’s an attempt to dehumanise a person or emotionally distance yourself from their humanity in a way that can insult/justify the speaker’s mistreatment or observed inequity.
Women who say this intentionally are intentionally utilising misogyny in a “pick me fashion”. Women who say this unintentionally are still trafficking in misogyny but it’s often a subconscious thing based on the company they keep.
It doesn’t matter if the speaker is in healthcare, military, LEO the underlying impetus is usually the same. I avoid men & women who do this. If they are ppl I care about I ask them why, explain & make it a point to correct them EVERY TIME.
Did you immediately correct him? I always do.
I appreciate when they're like this early enough that we can block their number and not waste time with them
I know a lot of women who do care about this but I don’t. Not a deal breaker for me personally
Only if he also uses "male" for men.
I feel like women hear it from men and that when they get triggered by it, but I hear it from women all the time. Especially women of color.
If a man refers to me as a "female" and don't address me by my name or miss or ma'am, then i'm gonna refer to him as a "male" or dehumanize him by calling him di@k since he wants to do the same to me. I don't take disrespect or intolerance from anybody.
I often hear women use male/female. Not exactly a tell tale. Most people aren't that insidious.
Red flag
Someone actually said it in a meeting at work.... Obviously not gonna date that person but it was still upsetting (the word females is used by a lot of transphobes so it's worrying in multiple ways). Yes I've heard a few otherwise pleasant people use that word, likely out of ignorance. But those are a small minority of cases
There are many people who are just that-female-nothing more-and they are not the same as a WOMAN! Even more rare is a LADY-few of those left now. It works the same on the other side-there are many we call male, but they are not the same thing as a MAN and certainly not GENTLEMEN-words have meaning-
Can’t understand why men can’t just call us women
Yeah... if you had to choose between just those two the former is preferable. But you know what's even better than that?
“It’s sad that women have to deal with so much sexism and abuse”
We don't have to accept language we don't like just because the main sentiment behind it is good.
That's why I asked the question. I still get the ick from men using females, though outside of talking about animals. We don't refer to men as males nearly as much
You've created a false dichotomy. Both of those statements are red flags.
I hate this so so much, although I also feel like I hear it more and more from normal, left wing men. I assume it's spreading online and becoming normalized?
r/MenAndFemales