Still puts most of the blame on Nintendo.
Nintendo has always disliked the Super Smash Bros eSport scene.
Sony buying EVO gave them a reason, but they would probably still have made this decision at some point regardless of Sony or some other company acquiring EVO.
they would probably still have made this decision at some point regardless of Sony or some other company acquiring EVO.
Doubtful. It was there for almost an entire decade and only disappeared now that Sony is in the picture. It's obvious why it happened now.
Smash had always been the only game at EVO where its presence was never a problem of "do enough people want it there?" (since it will always bring more than at least the least popular games of the roster) and more of a "is the publisher still OK with this?"
I mean, this is also the first offline evo since the absolute catastrophe of the unveiling of grooming, sexual harassment / abuse, etc in the smash competitive scene. Nintendo has never liked the competitive scene and they certainly don't want to be associated with that shit at a large scale
Except Nintendo is currently partnering with Panda to run a professional circuit of their own with all the countless players that haven't been banned participating. It hasn't started yet, but it has been confirmed to be coming, so it pretty clearly isn't the reason.
I think its more or so the perfect shit show that basically led to this happening. From the allegations towards the co-founder of Evo two years ago, Ultimate getting pulled from Evo 2020 and 2021 due to its terrible netcode, Sony buying Evo last year, Nintendo teaming up with Panda starting up a Smash circuit. Just one of these alone could have sparked Smash's removal from Evo and the fact all of them happen is kinda telling.
The panda tournaments are likely an attempt for Nintendo to gain greater control over the competitive scene. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is significantly less emphasis placed on the players and who they are, as Nintendo probably wants to prevent another scandal like what happened in 2020.
If that were the case, I don't think Panda would have agreed to it. Panda's whole strategy as a team has been emphasizing their player's personalities even more than the other orgs.
Panda, like any other esport org, wants to get money and eyeballs. Partnering with Nintendo but having to sacrifice this "emphasis on player personality" is an easy trade, like zero hesitation easy.
Okay so Nintendo can’t win here then? People are mad when they ignore the scene, then they create an actively sponsored circuit with a well respected brand name and still aren’t doing it right? Never mind the fact that your comment is basically all conjecture
I don't see where they implied Nintendo was doing anything wrong. They simply said that think Nintendo wants more control to try and prevent similar incidents in the future. I would tell you to not make comments based on conjectures, but I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion, even when they're dumb as hell.
Nintendo has been actively sabatoging the smash competitive scene for nearly a decade. Yeah, they'd have to make some gestures of goodwill to not be the bad guy in this story.
Presumably people would accept a Nintendo "win" if they let Smash be at EVO.
You didn't hear? Mr. Nintendo himself comes to people's homes and kicks the gamer's pets while dangling the Mother 3 official translation just out of reach. Evil company.
Panda's not respectable in the FG scene to the same degree so no one cares. They're one team running tournaments on a MUCH smaller scale than the big four. None of the other companies running FGs are going to be running tournaments along side it.
All people want is Smash at Evo and Nintendo's tried to fight them in every way possible. There was literally no win other than that for Nintendo.
Fuck nintendo and there shitty competative rules. The scene is no item yet they choose to push them where they arent wanted
People really need to stop giving Nintendo credit for this until we know literally anything about it. Nintendo had repeatedly done nothing but negative to the competitive community, and a vague announcement of a north American exclusive circuit shouldn't earn them their brownie points. It should honestly be a bad omen until proven otherwise.
Ah good point, I didn't know about that. In that case I wonder if it isn't just a panda exclusivity contract thing
The only reason Nintendo wants control of the competitive Smash scene is to finally euthanize it once and for all. Thankfully, it is mostly too grassroots to be killed in this manner. I have no doubt this Panda partnership will end up like every other Nintendo competitive 'partnership'.
They probably just don't want a competitive scene that they can't manage/control.
They've approved of the Panda smash circuit which happens later this year and has offline events. Not a valid argument.
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2.3y
That's a bit disingenuous tho, they condemned Activision before Sony did, and every big publisher around works with Ubisoft and Activision anyways. Hell, Microsoft just gave Kotick the fattest of golden parachutes.
I don't like it either, but you can't blame Nintendo for what every company in the industry do
Sympathizing with fellow corporations who did wrong is different from sympathizing with competitive players they absolutely never need to deal with.
Except, as others pointed out, if that was something they cared about they wouldn't have announced they were partnering with Panda for a Smash circuit.
Whose to say they won't ban players from the circuit they deem to be problematic? My point is companies won't hold each other accountable if money is involved. Competitive players, on the other hand, are absolutely disposable.
I'm not saying they won't ban players from the circuit or anything (especially considering all of the "cancelled" people are currently banned from community events anyways). I'm just saying that if allegations regarding people no longer involved were a reason they'd decide to completely pull out of an event, it would be consistent behavior.
I mean, this is also the first offline evo since the absolute catastrophe of the unveiling of grooming, sexual harassment / abuse, etc in the smash competitive scene.
All normal in Japan. That's not the reason.
Smash was the biggest game in EVO and Sony has absolutely nothing to gain by removing it.
They pulled the plug on it before only to eventually cave to pressure to put it back in.
It's probably due to Panda and all of that. But if I had to be honest, I don't really care about this either way. lol
Yea, this isn't just petty console wars, this is Nintendo's longstanding history of "Fine, I'll do it myself": https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/1461398329279991813
Sony probably didn't help, but Nintendo seems like it wants to foster its own esports scene now. So this was pobably inevitble
Can’t blame them for disliking smash. The community is the personification of basement dwelling idiosyncratic boys.
All of that grooming and pedophilia didn't exactly help the standing of the community either.
Excuse me what??
You couldn't throw a stone at a Smash tournament without hitting an over-aged male Smash player that was grooming a child.
It was a huge story a few years back. I'm sure the Sky House document is still out there somewhere.
I doubt that was their reason.
Why would Nintendo allow their game to be part of a competitors business, essentially putting money in a competitors pockets?
Sometimes money in the pocket of a competitor is more money in your own pocket. Nintendo doesn't really care if Sony is successful. Especially in a world where people own multiple consoles and companies have many revenue streams.
I think in such cases it is up to Sony and Nintendo to workout a deal in which guaranteed money goes into Nintendo's pockets via a partnership or licensing. Kinda like licensing guest characters for Smash.
Is it because of the kind of people that play Smash Bros?
I don't blame them at all. The smash community acts like they are all victims all the time and did nothing to remedy the sexual assault and grooming issues that plagued them all last year.
If i were nintendo, i wouldn't touch that scene with a 10 foot poll.
The smash community acts like they are all victims all the time and did nothing to remedy the sexual assault and grooming issues that plagued them all last year.
This is really weird victim blaming, saying that the people in the community who got assaulted "did nothing to stop it", what the fuck?
Nintendo has always disliked the Super Smash Bros eSport scene.
After what happened to a lot of the top Smash players, I can understand why.
Still puts most of the blame on Nintendo.
Rival company acquires event host, and discontinues rival game despite being in said event for over a decade.
"It's Nintendo's fault!"
Did you read the tweet? They couldn't have spelled it out more clearly.
Yea, it's Nintendo's fault because they are making their own esports:https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/1461398329279991813
not because "oh they hate esports".
As an outsider who thinks of SF and Smash Bros for events like these, what is Sony's aim for taking over an event like this? Thanks
Sony wants to get into eSports but the problem is that eSports is mostly a PC gaming thing. Fighting games are something that is more popular on consoles than PC gaming. Frankly though I am not sure Sony knows what they are getting into seeing stuff like Nintendo's reaction.
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2.3y
Not that shocking. Disney is the same way.
They're brutal when it comes to overseeing their properties. They don't care if you're some 10 year old on Youtube, they will wreck your shit.
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2.3y
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2.3y
This article is about EVO 2020 and how Smash wasn't included because the netcode on Nintendo's servers isn't good enough for top tier competitive play...
I think it's possibly to do with the Panda Circuit they're doing.
might be contractually exclusive.
I think it's silly to speculate with things like, "Nintendo don't want to work with Sony" or "could be due to Mr. Wizard" (I've seen some people speculating that)
All we know is Nintendo chose to not have Smash at EVO
Nintendo don't want to work with Sony
I mean has Nintendo ever been willing to work with Sony on anything ever?
I mean they aren't against it.
You've got a Playstation Studios game coming to Switch in April
The MLB allegedly forced Sony's hand about making it multi-platform.
MLB The Show 22 if anyone else was curious.
That's a bit of an abnormality though, since the cross-platform nature of this franchise is a recent demand by the IP holders, not an initiative taken by Sony itself.
and an exclusive game from Aniplex, plus a visual novel
and an exclusive game from Aniplex
Everyday♪ Today’s MENU for EMIYA Family if anyone was curious. I hadn't heard of it but it appears to be a spinoff of the Fate franchise.
Wait why is that relevant?
Um. If they didn't want to tolerate them, those games probably wouldn't be on Switch.
I'm asking what the connection is to Aniplex
Sony owns Aniplex.
Not the same division. That's why FGO revenue is never counted when discussing Playstation division revenue. They both operate independently.
That’s more Sony porting a game to the Switch rather than Nintendo working with Sony.
It’s not hard to see that Nintendo still has some resentment towards Sony.
Nintendo isn't a person, they're not resentful.
Nintendo is a company with a market strategy and their relationship with Sony is solely based on that.
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2.3y
Yep until The story behind Nintendo’s betrayal of Sony
“Suspecting as much, Nintendo decided to strike first. The day after Sony gave its announcement, Nintendo announced it was dropping Sony and was now working with its Dutch rival Philips instead. Sony was shocked at the public humiliation Nintendo had inflicted on it. But if Nintendo had hoped to push Sony out of the games business the move backfired.”
So by trying to push Sony out of the gaming space they instead created it’s biggest rival.
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2.3y
People love buzzwords.
some people are so deep into the console wars bullshit that they rather believe a biased, dramatized story version of the events instead of just the facts.
Fairly likely based on what?
That's like Sony ending PC ports because they find out Microsoft makes Windows. Nintendo is maximum level petty.
Any time nintendo has to make a decision about competitive smash they always choose the worst option for the community, no one is surprised by this.
Because they don't see the competitive community as a viable investment. The Panda circuit came as a surprise but I don't expect much to come of it in the longterm.
Letting Smash be at Evo is not an investment. Nintendo has to do nothing, and it would already be better than anything they do.
Let tournaments be tournaments and Smash would keep growing. "Don't be a dick about" costs nothing.
They don't want Sony benefitting off it. Smash is one of EVO's largest features, of course Nintendo wouldn't share.
Nothing to do with Nintendo, as I've linked in this thread.
Well they didn't start making PC ports for like 20 years for exactly that reason
No...they didn't because for the longest time PC was seen as a competitor to Playstation and Xbox (and I'm sure still is in console war forum posts).
Sony realized at some point selling old games at full price on PC is more profitable than trying to convert them to their system. Aside from an exclusive FromSoft game there's nothing that can convince a PC Master Race guy to buy a playstation.
Or maybe Sony realized their games only sell for a couple months and they need to sell on PC to actually please investors and shit. Nintendo don't need this because they have old ass games like MK8 still sellling like hot cakes.
Instead, Sony made devices which had Microsoft software built into them.
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2.3y
Mysteriously. Please, there's no fucking mystery, it was dropped because Evo had to go online and Smash Ultimate online netcode is to say it simply "fucking dogshit". It's not viable for serious competitive purposes. There's no mystery about it.
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2.3y
Also Smash at Evo has historically been awkwardly managed and Nintendo has always been shitty to deal with regarding major esports events.
Sony buying Evo probably just gave them a excuse to pull out of something they didnt care about to begin with. I am sure Sony and the Evo team would have been more then happy to continue letting Smash do its thing at Evo. Heck I believe they said so after the buyout.
Combined with a large chunk of the upper tier of Smash players outed as sex pests over the least 2 years and I dont blame Nintendo for being super controlling going forward TBH.
EVO gets bought in 2020 and Smash gets dropped. It's obvious what happened there.
shocked Pikachu
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2.3y
Smash had a pretty good run at Evo. Was sad to see Melee go, but that's just how it works, older games get cycled out and replaced by new games. Even though Nintendo is cutting the games' runs a little short here, they both got to stay in the spotlight longer than I expected. Hoping this is just a sign that the Panda stuff will have full support from Nintendo instead
They're still going to be in the spotlight, just not EVO: https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/1461398329279991813
I'm not even a fighting game fan. How are so many people not aware of this and thinking this is the end of Smash esports? This wasn't low key news:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/qww627/nintendo_has_partnered_with_panda_to_launch_the/
https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/qww10a/nintendo_of_america_confirmed_ready_your_agame/
Most smash players have hardcore PTSD for basically any official nintendo partnered stuff. Nintendo can just choose to pull the rug under the players and have done so in the past. They basically have zero respect for their own fan community.
I guess we'll see. The comments I linked to do seem skeptical, but also surprised in general that Nintendo acknoledged Melee's existance. And they seem to trust Panda at least.
They did the exact same thing with MLG a few years back. Big smash esports announcement and everything, then proceeded to ghost them and nothing ever materialized.
The issue is that trusting Panda doesn't mean anything. Panda isn't calling the shots, Nintendo is. Panda might be the TO, but Nintendo can shut the entire thing down on a whim.
Because EVO is the only fighting game tournament with main stream popularity. It's where all of the casuals and even non-fighting game fans tune in to watch, so to not have a game showcased in that tourney hurts it in the long run. Smash esports absolutely will take a hit from this.
If we were talking about anyone except Nintendo, I may be inclined to agree. But I remember hearing similar talk about when Nintendo stopped presenting conferences at E3 and look at what they did.
Nintendo is very much big enough to advertise its own e-sports scene, and Smash is a big enough hook to focus that on (I wouldn't be surprised if they extended this to Splatoon next year as well). They've always managed to be a trend setter in some regard at some point in history. And it's not like it's doing it alone. Panda looks like they've been in the esports scene for a very long time and know what they are doing.
I have a feeling you're coping hard right now as a smasher. I would too, only time will tell who is correct.
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2.3y
Did you not read my first response, ‘my dude’? Its all that needs to be said. Only nintendo fanboys and smash fan boys will watch the smash circuit. Everyone tunes into EVO.
Melee was ressurected at evo by the popularity of its mechanics and superstars. It died once and it is staying dead this time.
Melee is literally alive and better than it has ever been, especially now with Project Slippi giving it rollback netcode for online.
Unless you mean specifically for Evo.
This is revisionist history. Melee was going strong well before Evo and it'll be just fine without it.
Melee is probably more alive than any other fighting game aside from Strive right now.
Well thats just distespectful to every other scene. All of these games are thriving rn
This seems like a mixture of the Sony buyout along with Nintendo not having to sell something anymore now that Ultimate is done. Hopefully that PANDA Circuit actually materializes into something substantial.
After the Sony buyout this felt inevitable. While I think Sony understands how big smash bros is viewer-wise for the show, the game has already sold a ton, and doesn’t need a competitive scene to sell, so Nintendo doesn’t care. Nintendo also probably doesn’t want their IPs on a major stage next to probably a ton of Sony/PS logos.
I think it's a hugely missed opportunity for Nintendo to not let Smash be featured in EVO, seeing all the DLC fighters played at extremely high levels by pros and the big prize pool would entice more people to pick up the game and download the dlc fighters. I just don't understand why they don't give smash the proper push it should get in the fighting game community with more tournaments and prize pools, it would benefit them in so many ways with more eyes on the game played at pro levels.
From a marketing perspective, Nintendo seems to view smash bros as a crossover game first, and a fighting game second. Smash sells on IP alone, and Nintendo doesn’t view the competitive scene as something that would massively benefit them, or increase sales. It would be great to see all of the new dlc characters in action at evo, but a decent amount of fans watching tournaments like this have likely already bought them.
What is the downside?
I think it's a hugely missed opportunity for Nintendo to not let Smash be featured in EVO, seeing all the DLC fighters played at extremely high levels by pros and the big prize pool would entice more people to pick up the game and download the dlc fighters.
Just being smash bros makes people pick up the game and download dlcs. People don't buy mine craft Steve because they like his move set at the highest levels of smash bros tournament play, they buy him because he is Minecraft.
I just don't understand why they don't give smash the proper push it should get in the fighting game community with more tournaments and prize pools, it would benefit them in so many ways with more eyes on the game played at pro levels.
Because then they have to deal with things like pedophile scandals being associated with their family friendly IP.
It's really not hard to grasp.
It's really hard to grasp for melee fans for some reason.
Yeah man, they're really struggling to entice people to buy smash and it's dlc. They need EVO to market it for sure.
So now they have Panda taking over Smash and in doing so gives them their precious Melee back.
Still a surprising development as Evo is what everyone knows, I never knew anything about Panda.
This is such a massive blow to EVO. A large amount of their viewers only tune in for Smash Bros and it’s consistently one of the highest watched tournaments at the event next to Street Fighter. As a huge fan of EVO, it feels like it’s going the way of E3. Multiple companies have their own big circuits/tournaments/events now which they clearly care more about and it feels like a few are still participating only due to a history of being there. I wouldn’t be surprised if EVO in the future is a few select big name games and mainly indies.
Edit: To the people replying saying that EVO will not die because there's no Smash Bros, I'm not saying that. EVO will probably be fine. EVO can still be a success while still being negatively impacted by the lack of Smash Bros. My main worry is that this may be a sign along with other companies' focus on their own E-Sports products that EVO is slowly its once prestige status similarly to E3.
Evo was around and popular before Melee and it will be around and popular after Smash Ultimate. They'll be fine. The issue with Smash Bros "fans" is that they have the lowest level of cross over with other games. They're in and out only for their one specific thing. They can feel free to go and watch Smash Bros tournaments at other events.
The issue with Smash Bros "fans" is that they have the lowest level of cross over with other games.
This is actually a good thing from an advertising perspective. If EVO adds another fighting game, they only get a few more unique views, because as you said there is so much crossover. When they add a Smash game, they get tens of thousands of new unique viewers, which makes their ads more valuable.
Most Smash fans tune out the second it's over though.
They're not sitting around watching the rest of the event.
That's why the Ultimate was the closer back in 2019.
That is irrelevant for advertisers. They want unique pairs of eyes on their ads and they get what with smash bros in the lineup.
New viewers mean nothing if they don't convert
How does that even remotely make sense? A viewer is a viewer with eyeballs that can be sold to advertisers.
You're telling me that there could be a high-profile soccer match held at EVO with 100 million people watching and it wouldn't matter because none of the viewers are going to care about Street Fighter?
EVO more than 20 years ago was in a completely different state than current EVO. I’m not saying EVO is gonna be garbage now but it’s definitely not gonna be the same without one of its heavy hitters. Before Sony acquired them many people were worried it was gonna go bankrupt. I know about the lack of crossover with Smash Bros viewers but that still translated to a massive amount of viewers and attendance for the event. I honestly don’t understand why lack of “crossover” was such a big discourse in the first place, people are there for what games they enjoy playing/watching. It wasn’t a rule that you had to support multiple games there. The individuals who tried to gatekeep only created more tension and discourse between/within the communities. There’s a reason EVO kept having Smash Bros outside of the year they went online only. This is gonna heavily impact EVO and to downplay is just trying to undermine how much attention and revenue Smash Bros brought to the event.
The new guy in charge is a massive upgrade over who they had prior.
Smash bros is kinda like the relative who shows up late to a family function, loads up on food and drink, only wants to talk about what they’ve been up to and then is first to leave without saying goodbye to everyone. Sure, nothing saying you can’t do that, but everyone else might not see you as great member of the family (or the FGC in this analogy) if you do.
I would say it's like the rich, popular uncle who shows up to the event because the people hosting know he brings more eyes to the party. Yeah he gets a lot of attention with his presence but outside of being there he doesn't do much else to help and doesn't really talk to others. Some of the people there don't really mind but a lot don't like him due to the principal of it while others are jealous of him because of how much fame/success/attention they get lmao.
Sure, fair enough analogy from the other side. I think both parties are at fault, the FGC has historically gatekept the Smash Community, and the Smash Community has a history of bad behavior whilst other games are on at events and doesn’t seem to care about anything else going on in the FGC. Both could do better to remove the tension between the two.
Oh I agree, I don't think either community is perfect. It's a shame their response to the tension is to just increase it rather than address it.
Honestly, there's a massive age gap between the two communities as well. The average Smash player is about 5-10 years younger than the average Street Fighter player.
Only for Ultimate, really. Melee tends to have a higher average age and more crossover between their players and other fighting games. Still doesn't stop the FGC from hating their guts, though.
I’m not a smash fan and I’ve attended multiple Evos. I generally agree with you that it’s going to reduce numbers for Evo, especially viewership online. I don’t think in-person will suffer that much. Evo was always a communal “fighting game event”, and people attended to play in and watch tournaments from all games. Except the smash fans. They always showed up for just smash. I think the tournament will carry itself well enough without smash, especially post covid when everyone is itching for in person events once more.
I agree overall with your point that it'll be more of an impact in online viewership and that EVO will probably sustain itself just fine without Smash Bros. However, I just wanted to provide some context on why I still think it'll have a noticeable affect on in-person stuff. If these statistics are true and around 9,000 people were in attendance for EVO 2019 and 3,500 applied as entrants for Smash Bros Ultimate, even if you say only 25% of Ultimate's entrants were there for only Smash Bros, that's still around 1/10th of EVO 2019's overall attendance there for just Smash Bros.
Dude there's a sick crop of fighting games right now for Evo. It'll be just fine without smash.
Anyways, it's less of an E3 and more of like... music festivals. You go to Evo / Ultra Miami, you're gonna get the biggest games / artists. But there's plenty of other majors / festivals that are more tuned to specific tastes and are in a lot of ways even better. Frosty Faustings just a few weeks ago was stacked and an absolute blast. Combo Breaker coming up too.
Dude there's a sick crop of fighting games right now for Evo. It'll be just fine without smash.
There's a sick crop of fighting games at EVO every year. Again, I'm not saying it'll die or be garbage without Smash Bros but it's still definitely a big blow. It's hard to replicate the amount of unique viewership and participants Smash Bros brought, especially with one or two games.
Anyways, it's less of an E3 and more of like... music festivals. You go to Evo / Ultra Miami, you're gonna get the biggest games / artists. But there's plenty of other majors / festivals that are more tuned to specific tastes and are in a lot of ways even better. Frosty Faustings just a few weeks ago was stacked and an absolute blast. Combo Breaker coming up too.
That is a fair comparison to make but EVO was and still probably is a higher tier than all of those as well as others such as CEO. EVO has the branding and history that can bring in countless non-dedicated fighting game fans. That's why I brought up the E3 comparison because these were once the titans of their area but now they're slowly becoming much less important as the companies involved can sustain their own solo versions.
This is such a massive blow to EVO
It really isn't. Smashers don't care about the fighting game community, they only care about Smash. They provide next to 0 support for any other scene.
But I'm not talking about the other scenes at EVO, I'm talking about EVO the event. You can justify it not being there as a good thing for others there but to not act like it hasn't been a great source of money and attention to the event is just not true. People registering and watching online for only Smash Bros was still a huge amount of revenue and attention for EVO.
The difference with E3 is that huge open bracket events are just not very profitable, that's why all the other circuits are not huge events like EVO but rather invitationals (and also, most of the time other events are the qualifiers, I don't know about Bamco stuff but at least Arcrevo and the Capcom pro tour work like that). All the big companies aside from Nintendo are still in (which isn't much either, Capcom, Bamco, and NRS are the only big companies in that space and they're not abandoning EVO any time soon). Imo it sounds more like unfounded fears rather than what's actually happening.
It depends on what fears you have tbh. I think the big worry about EVO is less it folding (Especially with Sony acquiring it now) and more it just not being as relevant anymore. It's clear the big companies have no longer planned their E-Sports revolving around EVO as much as they have in the past anymore. Practically all the big companies have their own thing with just as big or if not-bigger events 9Capcom Cup, Pro Kompetition, and I'm not sure if Tekken has a premier circuit outside of their online tournaments) while viewing EVO as an additional major or even a bonus major. Heck even Nintendo has their own Smash Bros circuit going on with the Panda Circuit. This is also a brand new development, we don't know how EVO is gonna do with the lack of Smash Bros yet outside of an online-only context. We gotta wait and see how well it does this year first, like after Sony pulled out of E3. I could be completely wrong and EVO does better than ever or this is the first major domino to fall.
"massive blow" lmao. if evo cared about numbers that much, smash would have been a "fighting game" since day 1 and would have been included in evo for it's popularity. evo has always been a few select big names and a bunch of indies. at least finally other games won't be getting boos or having seats taken by smash fans that legit only care about their game and nothing else. https://twitter.com/tone765/status/622555031842107392
can't forget when they steal monitors from other games too.
Yes, it is a massive blow. You can justify it not being there as a good thing for others there but to not act like it hasn't been a great source of money and attention to the event is just not true. Also I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about it not being included due to its popularity. The tweet is implying they did want it there but were denied. Its popularity is also why there's been a Smash Bros game at EVO at every in-person EVO since 2013 (Which was there because it won a donation drive which is fuelled by popularity) until this year.
2013 is pretty recent in terms of fg. Evo isn't going to die out without it. There's a reason why "09er or '12er" is/was a thing in the fgc. Fighting games will blow up and gain popularity with or without smash. To pretend like it not being there suddenly turns it into e3 when it was never there from the beginning is an overreaction. Yes evo will lose out on eyes. Yes there will be less money. But at it's roots it was about the gathering of the small community it has, not about the fame.
2013 is pretty recent in terms of fg.
I'm not saying it isn't, but being apart of EVO for more than 10 years (It first debuted in 2007) means it was popular enough to keep its presence. We also have to be fair in saying that the competitive scene for Smash Bros is much younger than many of the other heavy hitters such as Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat but I don't think overall age of a fighting game discredits it at all.
Evo isn't going to die out without it.
Idk why people keep replying with this point. I never said EVO is going to die, especially not after Sony acquired them. Just that this may be the decline of its extreme dominance in the minds of fighting game companies.
But at it's roots it was about the gathering of the small community it has, not about the fame.
I get that but we're not talking about how EVO started out. EVO doesn't present itself as a gathering of a small community anymore, it presents itself as the biggest fighting games event of the year. That's what I'm referring to.
I like smash quite a bit, but if I was Nintendo I would block every fucking tournament that I could. The competitive smash community is pure poison and I wouldn’t want my name anywhere near them.
I dont think its fair to SEVERELY punish an entire community because of a few bad members. They already moved past it
Assuming this was Nintendo's reasoning. it's not about punishing anyone, it's just about making sure that you can't be associated with or caught supporting that scene.
Yeah, Nintendo totally wants to distance themselves from... Smash Bros, the game they make and continue to update regularly.
No, there's no chance it's done due to the few bad actors involved. That would actually hurt their reputation worse, because it was VERY few people involved with serious scandals out of THOUSANDS who play competitively. Banning the game due to that reason would actually make the situation seem more widespread than it was.
But then where would all the pedophiles go?
Overwatch 2 is coming out soon
Can you explain why they're pure poison?
In the last two years, there were some VERY high profile members who were exposed for all kinds of sexual misconduct. Things like
multiple commentators raping women after getting them (at least one minor?) intentionally inebriated (Keitaro + D3 I think)
one of the most notable community members (who was the best player in the game prior to ultimate by far) grooming multiple children (Zero)
one of the top players being in a relationship with a minor (and a ~10 year age gap) and match fixing over it (Ally with captain zack)
that same minor raping an (over age) closeted current top player, and blackmailing them (as they were closeted) (captain Zack raped Nairo)
other top players lying about that last event (Samsora + maybe Salem??) to make the raped person out to be a pedo
I'm sure I'm forgetting some/the above list is not 100% accurate - I included names so you can more easily Google, but didn't verify correctness of each inclusion on the list, and haven't thought about the drama much since it happened.
But its really been an absurd amount of community members committing sex crimes.
Uh where the hell is that 0 thing from that wasn’t zeros accusation he only had 1 accusation that to this day is unproven being the private chat thing when he was 19 and I believe the person was 14-15. Nairo isn’t closeted if his story is the truth it’s just the story of another gay man raping a straight guy. You really need to catch yourself up
But its really been an absurd amount of community members committing sex crimes.
You listed less than 10 people out of a game that has literally thousands upon thousands of people participating competitively. That's actually a smaller rate than just random towns in the US.
Every group full of young, vulnerable people has a few abusers.
It's just a numbers game.
How is Nintendo allowed to decide what game can or cannot be played in a third-party tournament? Can they also ban Smash Bros in tomorrow's tournament I'm holding with my friends?
No, they couldn't, as long as you're not broadcasting it.
Copyrights include broadcast rights (because Television and Film). Nintendo, holding the copyright to Smash (and many of the individual properties within Smash) means that they get to say if their game gets broadcast or not.
For big tournaments like EVO, not being allowed to broadcast a game makes running the tournament a massive loss without increasing the buy in for participants or cutting prize pools for the game.
Apparently they can shut down the tournament entirely, as that's what almost happened in 2013. Evo tried to talk them down to just doing it offstream and they said no to that too.
They can make threats and scare people. They wouldn't win in court.
depends on how much money you got
Copyrights include broadcast rights (because Television and Film). Nintendo, holding the copyright to Smash (and many of the individual properties within Smash) means that they get to say if their game gets broadcast or not.
Even if it's "broadcast" over the internet and not TV?
Yes. It's why every company is trying to ape Netflix, and why said service can't show every thing in it's catalog in every country.
Here's an article from 9 years ago explaining: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/07/why-nintendo-can-legally-shut-down-any-smash-bros-tournament-it-wants/
Even specifically brings up EVO and Smash, cuz Nintendo wanted to stop the Smash tournament
Most games have a clause in their EULA about their titles being used in a public display platform (like an arcade) or for events that take in commercial income.
Normally an esports organisation would need to get permission from the game developer/publisher to use their game.
Source: I work at a games publisher which has organised esports activities in the past.
Most games have a clause in their EULA
The vast majority of stuff in EULA's is not legally enforceable...
Short answer to that question, yes, they could take legal action against you for organizing a smash bros tournament without their permission.
Raw gameplay footage is actually not protected under fair use and is able to be claimed/shut down by the game's rights holders. Even if its a video of you playing the game.
This means that, in order for gameplay footage to be used under fair use, you have to follow the same conditions as using book excerpts or movie clips. Usually this is by being transformative through the adding of commentary and whatnot to the footage.
Videogame creators also have the same rights afforded to them as other audiovisual works creators, like the right of public performance. As an example, you are not legally allowed to play copyrighted music in public or to a group of people without permission. This also technically applies to video games, meaning that you are legally not allowed to set up a projector in a park and play smash bros without nintendo's permission. Meaning that, even if Evo didn't stream the event, showing the gameplay on the big screen to the in-person crowd is also technically illegal.
Pretty much everything about these games are copyrighted too, names, logos, and characters, and events like these cant use those protected "works" to advertise their event without permission.
While most publishers/developers tend to not give a fuck about this type of thing and dont bother enforcing it, Nintendo is a lot more litigious than others, so they probably don't want to bother with the hassle.
It also probably doesn't help that Sony bought Evo and Nintendo probably tried to rake them over the coals to allow their games.
Honestly, even Let's Plays as "transformative content" is loose enough protection that, if a big enough company wanted to rock the boat, I think it'd fall on their side. The same way talking over Kitchen Nightmares or Avatar on twitch isn't transformative content.
To be fair to Nintendo, since 2018 the only problem youtubers have is with music.
Raw gameplay footage is actually not protected under fair use and is able to be claimed/shut down by the game's rights holders.
Bull. Show me the court case.
They’ve sent cease and desists to many small/medium tournaments in the past, but they’ve been better with it recently. If Nintendo feels like people are making money off their games and they’re not getting a big enough cut, you better believe the legal team is coming
Because they own the game and the streaming rights. It's that simple. your completely small tournament is irrelevant lol
Fucked up. If I recall correctly, the Mkleo vs Tweek was one of the most watched matches on EVO. Smash gets great results. I honestly don't get what Nintendo is trying to do here, they don't even care about doing official tournaments themselves anymore.
I assume there's a plethora of bureaucratic shit going on that I don't really understand, but I can't find simple answers to this issue.
I still watch that match every once in a while. One of the craziest comebacks in Smash history.
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2.3y
a decade of having no problems, then Sony buys it and Nintendo ducks out. Makes me wonder if Sony was changing terms behind the scene or if it was a genuine petty move from Nintendo.
Still, bad news for Evo. Smash was the highest viewership game there and had minimal overlap with other fighting games, so its a big chunk of views gone. I'm sure they will be fine, but still not great news.
While I’m sure Sony would prefer for evo’s most popular game to not be full of their competitor’s IPs, this definitely seems like it was primarily on Nintendo’s end. Nintendo is very specific about how they want their IPs to be represented, and with smash bros being a major crossover, they probably don’t want their characters having any presence at a PS/Sony event.
Wasnt there a pedophile scandal within competitive smash? That's seems...relavent.
Nintendo's both been messing with the competitive scene for years before that scandal, and has partnered with competitive Smash organizations afterwards. I don't think Nintendo cares much about scandals. I think Sony owning EVO (this is the first offline one since it happened) is more relevant.
That's basically every 6 months xd
Nintendo tried to block it in 2013 too
You're being downvoted but you're right. Nintendo being a company that already wasn't completely comfortable with Smash Bros being there and largely markets their games (including this one) towards younger children than most other fighting game developers. Why would they want to be a part of it after 2020's events? It's not doing them any favors.
They're still doing a competitive circuit, they're not shutting down everything.
Yea but what I meant was that they weren't completely comfortable with being at Evo itself.
That makes even less sense, because why would they just not be comfortable with Evo due to "not wanting to be involved with the competitive scene", but are literally hosting their own competitive scene?
Why the fuck do they even need Nintendo's permission? If it's for legal reasons than our copyright laws are a fucking joke (I mean they still are either way).
Because under copyright law videogames are an "audiovisual work" which is the same as movies/tv shows and gives the exclusive performance rights to the copyright holder.
I'm still salty that SSBM was dropped in favour of Samurai Shodown and UNIST in 2019. They still kept Ultimate because Nintendo still had Fighter Passes to sell at the time, but apparently the Melee community could get fucked.
Shodown was barely even out by the time it hit EVO while UNIST was some random fighting game that was incredibly obscure, even by anime fighter standards.
Part of me wished Evo Online 2020 happened, because it was clear the four games that were picked for that were based on actually having decent netcode, which is why Thems Fightin Herds showed up.
That being said, quite obvious this has happened due to Sony owning EVO and Nintendo having a throbbing hate-boner for esports.
Super Smash Bros doesn't need a spot at EVO though. From what I recall EVO actually had one of the lowest prize pools of all the Smash majors.
Context for those out of the loop: Sony acquired EVO recently and this is the first offline evo since. Fairly likely that is why Nintendo is doing this now instead of any year prior.