Am I too moderate?

100%. Too religious for secular people, too moderate for religious people.

I'm right there with you, brother. Cultural Catholics think I'm a bit much because I go to Mass every week and try to live by Catholic teaching and Trads think I'm some loosey goosey Catholic because I'm not obsessed with gender roles, having a SAHM, basing my entire personality around my faith, and heavily participating in the "culture war." I think I have more issues with the Trad side as they are the more pushy of the two groups.

Where are the normal Catholic ladies at? I think I've only met one Catholic woman who didn't fit into either camp, and she was already engaged by the time I knew her.

A lot of trads are stuck in a fantasy. Living on a homestead with a dozen kids while having a SAHM isn’t required to be traditional like they seem to believe - it is incredibly unrealistic and will only lead to unhappiness for them if they are expecting that lifestyle.

Your best chance for meeting more “moderate” Catholics is probably going to be in person at parish social events. With online dating you’re going to run into trads like that because they mostly just exist online. With online dating there is also no guarantee that people that say they are Catholic actually take their faith seriously. You might still run into them, but you’ll filter out most of those “trads and culturals” in person.

Sounds like you're a normal, practicing catholic and a good person. Welcome to the club of faithful catholics who are also cool and normal and not extreme, all the while striving for holiness in the unique way God called us to be holy. I (25F) thought I was the only one... until I met my now-husband. There's more of us than you think - we're just a lot less loud and visible on account of being, well, normal!

Aristotle, when speaking about virtue, identifies that virtue lies in the mean and vice lies in both extremes. The cognitive environment of today's world is very polarizing. Almost everything political and moral is reduced to a black and white tribalism (opposite extremes).

Now, Aristotle also understands that everyone tends to believe that they are at the mean and that finding the true mean is incredibly difficult. As a result, those at the extremes will tend to view the mean as the opposite extreme -- for example, a reckless man will see a truly courageous man as a coward, and a coward will see a truly courageous man as reckless.

Now, there's a wide, wide range of "moderate" Catholocism, but you can at least take solace in the fact that you're not all the way at a vicious extreme.

Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good seems to be a trad specialty.

I’ve had similar feelings in my day and age. I think that part of the problem is that many/most people who are wired like us are much more demure about proceeding to share our viewpoints on these issues. Since we can see the good and the bad of each side, we aren’t as motivated to go out and criticize “the bad guys” and know we will be getting flak from both poles of the issue just for being more “moderate” as you put it. 

I’m guessing that a lot of the people who show up to Mass and then leave and go about your lives likely feel similarly to you; you just wouldn’t know it because you don’t have occasion to talk about it with them.

I feel very similar to what you've described. I describe myself as pretty conservative and striving to learn my faith better. But when I'm on here reading, I feel like I'm not good enough! Online, there seems to be this expectation of perfection. You also read what people are looking for and begin to worry about ever being the man (or woman) that another person is looking for. Logically, most people in this sub are not going to be compatible with me. But that feeling feels so magnified when instead of just interacting with people irl, you're seeing it every day online.

Too lenient for the trads and too strict for the culturals. Do moderate Catholics still exist?

Yes we still exist! I know exactly how you feel and I empathize.

Honestly it’s VERY regional. I’m from the south, and my Catholic friends were a little more relatable. Up here in the mid west it’s very much, no kissing no touching, must accept having 14 kids until you go through menopause at 50. Also they can be judgy as all hell. It depends on groups as well. You have to remember everyone has their own sin. Some people struggle with judgment and scrupulously, others with sexual immorality, others give the appearance of a good Catholic but then gamble and excessively smoke or drink. Everyone has something, so when that comes to dating or friendships, you just need to find a group of people that work better with your personal choices. I can’t be friends with people who only want marriage and babies, also can’t be friends with people who think tattoos or swearing will revoke my faith or confessions. But luckily I was able to find people who are connected socially with the world but still manage to put God first, while also loving their neighbors even if they’re not of the church. Met my bf and friend who weren’t Catholic and converted them both from agnostic. All about branching out.

26F and totally agree with you. I’ve gotten a lot of judgement from trads and culturals for my moderate beliefs when dating both online and irl.

I have an MBA and work in marketing for a Christian-based oil and gas company. Basically my dream job. I’ve had guy friends (met in a mostly trad Catholic college) ask questions like will you quit your job for your husband/family, how do you expect to keep a man if you won’t be a SAHM and have at least 5 kids, or outright tell me they prefer women without degrees because women should aspire to be SAHMs. They also think you should be engaged after 6 months of dating and make extreme sacrifices to save money and support the lifestyle. I was a bit taken aback that guys I had been close friends with actually looked down on me as a woman for having moderate beliefs and a fulfilling a career. Needless to say I didn’t meet anyone in college… 😂

My boyfriend (met on Hinge) is culturally Catholic. He thinks I can be a bit extreme but he understands where I’m coming from and is generally respectful even when we have religious disagreements. He wants 2 kids and to be a stay at home/wfh dad eventually, which I’m open to. We are not rushing to get engaged. In general, dating apps lean more cultural or secular but are worth a shot. You will have to filter out a lot of people because many want hookups (in my experience) and there’s judgement for not wanting to partake.

I’d look into churches with big young adult groups to try to meet new people. Some churches lean more moderate as a whole and you may have more luck meeting people. I just want you to know though, you’re not alone in being moderate it’s just more difficult to find people with similar beliefs.

Most of the people are like this. I (30 m) go to Sunday mass. I work . My mom who is a devout Catholic was a professor. My dad also very religious would help out in the household work.

I want someone like that , try to be a good Catholic, but also live life as a normal person. I remember a girl I was chatting with asked me " would your engineering help in honoring God" . I was like no thank you. I drink with my friends and have good times. Crack the occasional dirty jokes. It's good . I am by no means a perfect Catholic , but I consider myself good enough Catholic.

Anyone like that here ?

Not really, especially when you factor in 50k to 100k worth of debt from student loans. Tons of really good paying jobs without a degree. College is mostly worthless unless you are going into a STEM field job.

If you are mainly dealing with people your age, especially online, it is going to feel a certain way. Real life is not like what you see on social media.

They do, but you won't see them at YA group stuff. Trads make me embarrassed to be Catholic at times.

I've found myself feeling this way as well and I think that conservatives across the board are becoming way too obsessed with being trad to the point of being puritanical. I would be ok with my future wife wanting to work but if she decided to stay home that would be ok too. It's also frustrating as a man that were told by conservative commentators that if you have any interests outside of working 70 hours a week, going to church and maybe watching a football game occasionally your not masculine enough.

I think people are going to stress themselves out unnecessarily by telling themselves they must have no less than 8 kids and they must be a SAHM trad wife or the sole provider.

Most people today cannot afford six children where the average home buying transaction is over $400,000 lol society is not set up like that anymore in the people who can pull that off its almost like a luxury but also, that behavior can also isolate, especially when it comes to men because you’re gonna have to provide. It’s natural for female to have children and be pretty allegedly a course, but I also feel bad for the guys

I feel the same. I'm pretty conservative for Cultural Catholics but too liberal for Trads. I don't see myself living on a farm, having a bunch of kids and homeschooling them. Especially when it comes to politics/government, I know we have to stand up for our values but Trads are too aggressive and everything sounds like part of a conspiracy. In my country, most of them sympathize with monarchy and believe we should come back to this system, which was abolished over 200 years ago - they have no idea if it was good or bad. About providing, I do think the major resposability should be the man's, although women should work if they want to not because they have to (not talking about 6+ kids but in a scenario where we priotitize quality is over quantity).

Being among Culturals is like feeling we are missing something, or at least they want us to feel like this. For them, God is love, He forgives everything and that’s enough, which is true but not enough, otherwise we wouldn’t have teachings to follow. Virtues are timeless. I know in the past there was a lot of pressure on women regarding relationships and sexuality but unfortunately it made women go from oppressed to too liberal when in fact we should just be respected and treated with dignity.

I've never talked to many Trads but a lot of Cultural Catholics and it’s so easy to find them on Catholic dating apps, although I don't understand why and what they are doing there. If their religion is just a label, so just go for secular dating though.

Some trads who call themselves Catholic can be downright nuts though and also downright schismatic and heretical. Seems like some trads will bash people for accepting a valid church council (V2) or calling out other trads for blatantly lying about the Holy Father. Honestly your best off with a Catholic living out their faith the best they can and accepting of all the Church teaches and I believe they are out there

You're just what a normal Catholic should be lol. Somewhere alone the line people started filtering into the extremes and that has not been a good thing.

I’m still here. I’m not a “moderate” catholic in the lukewarm sort of way. I go to church every Sunday and try to pray often and practice catholic teachings. But I don’t fit in with “normal” catholics. I’m too goth, too leftist, I reject the tradwife lifestyle and want a career in audio engineering. I write “creepy” heavy metal music. It bugs me so much how even the Church itself has become secularized. Meaning, many Christians value traditional gender roles and politics more than what teachings are actually canon.

I'm in the same boat!

I think Catholics are actually pretty good at balancing their faith and life. I think the internet brings out the peculiar folks who are laser-focused on religion and have no real life outside of it.

I want to live a devout Catholic life; going to Mass every Sunday (Holy Days too of course), and abide by the Church's teachings, but I also want to have a regular life with a career, hobbies, partying, drinking, friends, and all the other cool shit life has to offer.

I think most people in real life are like this, so it's best to cultivate a life their instead of here as much as possible.

I don't want you to worry too much about trads, those on the internet are, from my experience, mostly folks that have a lot of time on their hands. Most folks who are traditional don't show up on Reddit, let alone other places in my experience. Family sizes range from several couples I know that just have their one kid, to families that, like you said, have 6. It's actually a much broader community than the internet would have you perceive. And as roles go, they're more like guidelines. While I know one or two guys that are construction workers, I myself am a software guy, another guy I know is in marketing, and another is actually in music to my knowledge. There are also alot that I know, men and women, who took the monastic route. There isn't necessarily only one way that we expect people to be. If you do see trad folks being that closed minded, I'd chalk it up more to "internet person" than to "Traditional Catholic".

I hope you find your path! God bless! 😊

I don't think I've ever actually met a woman in real life who wants 6+ kids and takes gender roles to an extreme. I'm sure they're out there but they're in the minority among Catholics who take your faith seriously. Have you looked at just normal suburban parishes or young adult groups? I'm guessing the people you described are mostly online and concentrated in bubbles at very traditional parishes.

When you say “Moderate” are you Referring to Reform?

We're here! 😂

We exist!! I don’t vibe with very trad Catholics but also don’t have much in common with cultural Catholics either…I consider myself a normal Catholic. It’s just too bad there aren’t more of us my age in my area :/

I didn't know a lot trad girls.

Women actually talk about how submissive they are. That sounds odd...

I am a Christian woman and I do not like the idea of not pursuing a man or waiting on the Lord.

It is not a sin to ask a man out.

Fellas, do you think it is emasculating if a woman expresses interest first?

Some women do not put themselves out there.

Or there is no concept of a platonic friendship it must be going somewhere.

You are lucky that you are 20 so you have time to find the right woman.

You simply sound levelheaded and sane.

PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE this part of your character

What’s the definition of a trad? I attended the tlm but in no where near what people on here are describing. I’ll take a educated money making woman any day. You seen the cost of living these days! 😂.

I’m disabled and I can’t afford having 6+ children. Many of them (especially so-called groypers) have a vivid sin of pride and they ignore it. Also, have you noticed how high their standards are? A woman, that is wearing a veil, have 10+ kids, traditional, with no career and social media. And what can THEY suggest? What makes them think they DESERVE it?

I think you are putting both trads and cultural Catholics in a box that doesnt necessarily ring true. I would consider myself very traditional, that being said, my future wife will work at least until we have kids and I do the things I need to in order to put myself in a position to support that many. Education, career, self improvement…these are all important things for any man, not just traditional guys looking to “level up”. You’re 20. You have a whole life ahead of you to get where you need to be to support a family. As for 6+ kids, there are plenty of people who are like that. You can’t do certain things to prevent it from happening, however there are many people who ideally would not have a large family.

Some women I have encountered on Catholic match want a man who takes the lead while others insist on being independent and wanting to be equals. I have yet to make up my mind which I would be compatible with!

When it comes to number of kids, everyone seems to want what they did have – those who come from large families want a smaller one while those who come from a small family wanting a larger – grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

On a discussion about this matter not long ago, many of the women who said they wanted a large family added the caveat that did not want their husbands to have to work overtime to support the kids.

I'm feeling  the same kinda, actually I'm more struggling with my identity regarding all this. I was on the more trad way of thinking. Because, honestly, I surrounded myself with that content and absorbed it like a sponge. However, when I started being more in touch with secular life I did notice how extreme I was in some stuff, the lack of personality since I made my image around my faith to some extent and how that affected my relationships. I wasn't that extreme thou, but also having all the trad content subconsciously made me feel like I was not doing things okay (specially when I started dating a more cultural girl who was pretty nice).

It's difficult to find a good moderate position, live a good happy life and enjoy it. I also focused a lot on politics that had nothing to do with me  but gave a false sense of purpose (all the cultural war stuff). Indeed, the trad view on how to live life as you mention it is just so unrealistic. I remember thinking about having kids and marriage in a really light way as if it wasn't a big deal to have them not realizing the sheer amount of effort it takes. In the end the trad view did a lot of damage to me psychologically and emotionally (also because I have an anxiety disorder). I still struggle with this and am in the middle of an existencial crisis not knowing where to stand.

I also end up leaning more from the secular world (in terms of how we define our personality) than from trad theology. I'm still going through this and it's really hard bit hopefully it'll bring joy and happiness. 

Sometimes I think we get stuck into the cultural/traditional extremism.

As long as you are humble to the teachings of the church and practicing, there are many ways to manifest that which are not against the church.

Someone trying to be too cultural? Point them at a secular jew or spiritual atheist.

Someone trying to be too trad? Go back past the 1950s. There are many "conservative" lifestyles that maintain femininity/masculinity which support and nurture the family. SAHMs don't exist in the mom and pop shop dynamic.

NO, TLM, Eastern Rite. Doesn't matter, it fulfills the obligation. Schizmatics exist across the spectrum, and disobedient Catholics should be considered spiritual red flags no matter where they come from.

St. Teresa and St. Padre Pio are perfect examples of cooperating with the church despite any disagreements.

Keep doing what you're doing. You shouldn't have to apologize to anyone for being a faithful Catholic. God bless 🙏🏿

Dude, you are not alone. I posted or commented something similar. The women idolize social media tradwives, pricing normal dudes out of the market or making him miserable if he struggles to fund her lifestyle.

The other end is loose "cafeteria catholics" who I can't commit to because they aren't serious.

The more masculine men married very young and the leftover dudes are socially inept or awkward.

I think you cannot in good conscience as a Catholic approve of two-income households when it’s clear that there is no need for them.

But then we have to be realistic. The economy is not within our control. We live in a world where two-income families are considered the norm. A lot of Catholic women might realize it’s better being housewives, but then they already invested a lot of time and money on school, so might as well make it pay. And of course living in contemporary society is just so expensive that having two incomes may give more security to families (obviously this arrangement is not without its drawbacks).

And I do agree that Trads make these principles their personalities—just consider the cautionary tale of Lauren Southern’s own experience.

The takeaway in all of this is that traditional family norms are exactly what you call them, traditions, i.e., they need to be handed down and preserved. Unfortunately their transmission has been interrupted for a couple of generations, and this means we are not going to restore them as quickly. It’s going to take time and it’s going to involve politics as well. As children of a despoiled society we can only do our best to rebuild.

It’s easy to think this when it comes to the internet. Everyone has this ideal game plan which ends up being unrealistic. But then when people are talking in real life, they focus on chemistry and are quick to throw away all of those unusually specific dealbreakers that were supposedly super important. I guess I would say it’s not as bad as it seems. But yea, people would generally do better if they treated a relationship more as an opportunity to grow with someone rather than a hunt for an already-perfect person (impossible).

Being poor doesn´t mean you don´t provide for your family. Or that you can´t be a traditional man. If you were neglected with 4 children then is on your parents it has nothing to do with the amount of children you have. Most people suck in general. It doesn´t matter whether theyre trad, cultural or whatever. Itś just statistics and original sin

That's usually why a husband with SAHM has a really large life insurance policy. That way, it can take care of the family in a situation like that. Outside of nursing, there really isn't too much of a purpose for a college degree from a woman's standpoint. That's the only female dominant field that I can think of that requires a degree.

It’s delusional that’s all. I mean truly delusional let’s be serious.

“I just want a SAHM and six kids”

Alright well let’s describe that ideal lady.

-Can relocate easily -Is healthy enough to have that many kids -Can leave her job without having much debt from college, etc

Congrats! Your “ideal” woman is 18 fresh out of her parents house. Which, if we’re being honest that’s young. A little too young for most people.

Sure maybe a doctor or psychologist might leave her job one day to pursue being a SAHM, but are you going to make up the difference with your career? So many things to consider.