I was apparently given non consensual pelvic exams during my surgery and I am not ok

Trigger Warning: Sexual Assault

I was just reading the surgery notes out of curiosity and all of a sudden there is just a part that said I gave consent for medical students to practice pelvic exams on me for no benefit to myself. It just made my whole body cold. I don't know what to do. I didn't fucking consent to pelvic exams while unconscious.

I definitely remember saying I was ok with students WATCHING the procedure I was already having and I do not feel that that translated also to consenting to having students shove a speculum inside f me.

I felt so off and weird after that surgery because of how weird and oddly painful my vagina felt... I just want to crawl into a hole right now. I don't understand why I can't escape abuse even from medical professionals who are supposed to help me and keep me safe. I wished this didn't even matter to me but it does. I'm already dealing with all much fucking past traumas and I don't want to deal with this. It shouldn't even fucking matter but it does. Why can't I escape this. I already have such trauma triggered just from going to the doctor before this. I don't want to fucking deal with this shit. Why the fuck can't people just stop hurting me. Edit, thank you so much to everyone that's replied. It has been honestly so validating waking up to all your comments. I don't have he energy to reply to everyone right now but I really appreciate everyone who commented here.

in CPTSDby Affectionate-Box-724

821

98%

5mo

hoping_gardens_farms

399

5mo

Also, even in case of consent, it should not just be blanket consent for as many pelvic exams as they like. There should also be an agreed upon number - eg one pelvic exam of approximately this duration that will include these steps. It infuriates me women still have to fight against such gross violations of their bodies.

eternalbettywhite

129

5mo

Exactly. This should be completely separate. Why do they have to learn that way? What are they learning that can’t be done with a conscious and consenting patient?

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

It's medical rape.

[deleted]

473

5mo

Report this, most people would not be okay with this CPTSD or not, if you didn't consent to it they shouldn't have done it

Affectionate-Box-724

242

5mo

It's so crazy because in the paperwork it says that I did consent to it. But I KNOW I didn't. Sadly I am apparently in a state in the USA where this so far is perfectly legal...

[deleted]

180

5mo

I am a MH professional in the states. An argument could be made that this was not INFORMED consent. They should be going over everything they will be doing before treatment starts. I think a complaint is worthwhile, to hospital administrators and the licensing board. Even if it doesn’t go anywhere, I know as a healthcare professional I would think twice about pulling some shit like this again if someone complained about it and felt violated.

[deleted]

123

5mo

No, you're not. You didn't give informed consent. It's on the healthcare professionals to make sure you understand what you're signing. There shouldn't be a loophole in this. They have to prove that they informed you of everything, which is why they're changing the law so that the hospitals keep a written and verbal record of the patient consenting. It's to protect the medical staff, not the patients.

Obviously any patient could attempt to claim compensation by falsly stating that they received a pelvic exam without consent, right? So with a signature on the form it would be hard to prove for the patient. I will say that in my time working in a veterinary practice, not one person tried to make false claims of malpractice. I don't think people have that on their minds when they're having surgery to improve their wellbeing.

However, I think you can prove that you didn't know they would perform a pelvic exam, because if you did know then you wouldn't have consented to it due to your PTSD and the exact nature of your trauma. They could use your medical records of your PTSD and diagnosis as evidence to back this up. Therapists you've seen. Basically anyone in a professional field who knows about your trauma could be a witness. You also had a negative doctors visit before this too, which probably added to your anxiety.

More than anything, you should follow this up with the hospital because your doctors would be horrified to think that they performed a pelvic exam on you without your consent. I don't think this happens deliberately. I think that they expect people to read and understand the consent form, which isn't a fair assumption to make for a patient that hasn't eaten and is anxious for the procedure. This could be the kick up the ass that they need to be more thorough with their admissions + gaining consent.

When I was working in a veterinary practice, I would talk the owner through the whole procedure, and then get them to repeat back to me and clarify how they understood it. This is the only true way that I could be totally sure the owner knew what was happening.

This has the information you need. How can I complain about poor medical care I received in a hospital? | HHS.gov

Sk8-park

5mo

Gold response 🏅

GoalEcstatic

5mo

Don't forget our friends Joint Commission.... www.jointcommission.org

[deleted]

158

5mo

It was probably in the fine print on a general surgical consent form. That's how they get around this.

goodknight94

5mo

could maybe hire a lawyer. They might work off commission if the procedure was recorded...

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

I think you should file a police report then, because they've forged paperwork and raped you medically.

[deleted]

2mo

They probably sedated you first and then gave you the paper and manipulated you into signing. Which is also illegal.

JustanOldBabyBoomer

5mo

I second this motion! REPORT IT!!!!

schwenomorph

-1

5mo

Unfortunately, this is legal in a majority of states.

User deleted comment

5mo

SexDeathGroceries

5mo

This is unfortunately still pretty common. More teaching hospitals now hire medical proxies who undergo practice pelvic exams while conscious and actively participating. But practicing on anesthetized patients was the standard for decades, in the US and apparently in the UK too?

[deleted]

5mo

No in the UK you need informed consent to carry out exams like this.

SexDeathGroceries

5mo

Well that's good, I hope they take it seriously. Like others on here, I suspect OP was given a consent form somewhere in the small print of a huge stack of paperwork

[deleted]

5mo

It's not informed consent if it's hidden in small print somewhere. OP could easily say that she was stressed about her upcoming procedure due to a previous doctor visit, and couldn't read or take in all the information. It's the medical professionals' responsibility to make sure that the patient understands what they're signing. They should make the consent form as clear and easy to understand as possible. :)

SexDeathGroceries

5mo

I am not defending this at all. I'm just saying that sometimes medical practitioners do shady shit and get away with it.

What happened to OP is obviously atrocious and unethical. I'm just not super confident that it was also legally actionable (although definitely worth exploring those options), and it's more common than you'd like to think

ETA: and my main response to the parent comment is simply that avoiding that particular hospital won't necessarily keep you safe. This is a practice that needs to be outlawed, but I think too few people know about it

[deleted]

5mo

No it's ok, I'm just trying to explain that 'informed consent' means that it's the healthcare professional's responsibility to make sure the patient knows everything they are signing. It's a legal obligation, and the responsibility falls with the healthcare team, not with the patient for accidentally skipping over information and signing the consent form. If the patient missed an important detail like a pelvic exam, then the consent form isn't clear enough, and the explanation by the healthcare professionals about the procedure wasn't adequate.

Proving that in a criminal court would be difficult, but a civil court may be more likely for compensation for emotional distress.

-clogwog-

5mo

It happens here in Australia too.

SexDeathGroceries

5mo

Oof

-clogwog-

5mo

I had surgery back in September, and I was asked if I'd consent to being examined by a student doctor while I was unconscious. I initially didn't want to give consent, but they made it sound like a very trivial, entirely normal thing that would greatly benefit the student doctor, so I agreed to it. It's so fucked up.

SexDeathGroceries

5mo

Ugh. That is exactly what I was talking about, obtaining informed consent but not really. Covering their asses under the law, but still being really unethical

[deleted]

5mo

In fairness, it probably is trivial to them if they take their job seriously. There is absolutely nothing sexual about doing an exam on an patient under anaesthesia in a medical setting. And if there was a doctor who even hinted at being inappropriate, their colleagues would report them. They probably think that most people would rather have an exam under anaesthetic, than go through the discomfort of having it done conscious.

There should definitely be more awareness and training for people who have PTSD which could get triggered in a situation like that though.

Affectionate-Box-724

5mo

This was in Wisconsin, I don't really want to get much more specific but unfortunately this is apparently still legal and was only recently made against the law. So this could technically happen to anyone legally in multiple us states.

Helpful_Okra5953

5mo

This is horrible. Now I’m scared. I have chronic illness and have multiple surgeries ahead of me. And I think I know what hospital you were at. So scary. I am so sorry this happened to you.

Affectionate-Box-724

5mo

I'm so sorry. At least it sounds like it's going to be illegal soon. It might be possible to have it written in your chart that you are explicitly not okay with it. I hope your surgeries are done after it's made illegal. It's ridiculous.

Helpful_Okra5953

5mo

YOU have no reason to apologize. I thank you for writing about what happened to you so people are aware of this.
I am in your state and guessing that I’ve gone to the hospital this took place. They’re not always good to vulnerable people.
I am so sorry and I hope that you can come to some peace about this.

thesnarkypotatohead

5mo

I live in the US in a state where this finally becomes illegal on January 1st… but it has been and is still legal right now. It’s appalling. And I’m so sorry this happened to you. To call it violating isn’t a strong enough word.

Affectionate-Box-724

5mo

I am in the US in one of these states too, just looked it up. I had no fucking idea this was a thing. I can't believe they still did this to me even though it's about to become illegal too like what the fuck.

Worth_Banana_492

400

5mo

I have no words. That’s terrible. I assume you’re in the UK. That sounds like classic NHS violation of women.

appropriate_pangolin

285

5mo

It’s also legal (unfortunately) in over half of US states.

OP, I’m so sorry.

gigglebox1981

196

5mo

Yep. My sister is an OB-GYN. I was horrified when she told me this is a thing. And that she saw no problem with it.

User deleted comment

5mo

LongWinterComing

5mo

Unlikely.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

I guess we all know why

User deleted comment

5mo

notv4leri

5mo

You're correct that circumcision is an issue. However, bringing it up as a comparable issue in a conversation about medical sexual assult is neither polite nor appropriate, and it adds nothing to the conversation. If you want to engage in a conversation about circumsion, consider making your own post.

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

Yes.

concrete_dandelion

207

5mo

That a female gyn has no problem with raping unconscious patients for the sake of teaching is shocking

WaywardHeifer40

5mo

When you understand the medical model and how it is still conformed to white cisgender men, it's really not.

gigglebox1981

5mo

Honestly, she’s a wonderful doctor, beloved by her patients, and super ethical. It’s as if they just teach these doctors that it’s totally okay. I’m a former lawyer, and I have no idea how this is not assault. I had forgotten I knew about this until this thread. I’m so sorry OP went through this. It’s an insane practice.

concrete_dandelion

151

5mo

I don't want to destroy your picture of your sister, but I can't bring the words wonderful doctor, super ethical and defending medical rape in a sentence that makes sense without also adding a negation.

gigglebox1981

5mo

I get it. It’s pretty disturbing.

Doctors are generally not well educated about legal issues, in my experience. She delivered a baby to a 12 year old mother. I asked what the police/social workers were doing about the situation. She had no idea what I was talking about. It wasn’t reported. I was flabbergasted that the hospital didn’t have a policy and no nurses or doctors thought they should report a 12 year old giving birth. One way or another, someone abused that child. And the infant obviously should be on someone’s radar. Wtf.

concrete_dandelion

150

5mo

I'm sorry but that just makes my opinion of her worse. And you can't tell me that a gyn doesn't know about the trauma of medical rape or the fact that a pregnant pre teen is the victim of a crime. Defending the one and letting the other pass makes her complicit.

Try_Even

5mo

Completely agree with you. If someone doesn't have the sense that these things are wrong, they really have no business working with patients or owning a medical license whatsoever....

TiLoupHibou

5mo

They're well educated enough to know they're mandatory reporters, so when they do see something traumatic happening to minors, they say something to authorities.

Long story short; they do have policies dealing with these kind of matters and instead of telling you she can't divulge due to privacy concerns, she feeds you this enamourment instead. This cockamamie runaround defending about enabling rapists needs to stop. They may have a decent rug pulled over your eyes, but it's not impossible to pull off.

Severe-Chemistry9548

5mo

Like I'm very sorry for saying this but your sister isn't an ethical doctor or a good person. At all.

joseph_wolfstar

5mo

Wholly agreed.

ill-independent

PTSD, SZPD, OCD

5mo

This bypasses any defense of ignorance. Even a layperson understands that raping a child is wrong. A child should not be pregnant, period, and they were raped to get that way. Everyone on this thread understands the causality so your well-educated doctor sister really has no excuse beyond the fact that she is morally bankrupt.

coquihalla

5mo

I understand that you love your sister, but as a gyno that believes this is ok, I would say she is NOT a good doctor. Would her patients still love and respect her if they knew about this and her disregard for consent?

[deleted]

5mo

Please can you explain how this is informed consent? This is surely a violation of human rights?

RaccoonLord12

5mo

I know that sometimes it will be somewhere in the tons of paper work they give you to sign right before the appointment. So a woman can sign that paper thinking it’s just basic consent without realizing she’s also signing consent for that too. Unfortunately patients really have to advocate for themselves sometimes and read everything

[deleted]

5mo

But that's literally not informed consent. Informed consent means that it's the healthcare professional's job to explain everything that will happen to you. I don't see how this would be different in the US?

concrete_dandelion

5mo

If they hide it in other paperwork they know how horrible it is and it's not confirmed consent. In Germany they are required to talk to you about each detail and need you to sign that they did to avoid such situations

RaccoonLord12

5mo

Yes it is awful but unfortunately in the United States patients are not given those opportunities because our healthcare system is so messed up in many ways

concrete_dandelion

5mo

It's not just the healthcare system. I feel like the whole human rights thing hasn't fully arrived over there.

Continue thread...

greatplainsskater

5mo

I think without Notice it absolutely has to be assault.

schwenomorph

5mo

If your sister conducts medical rape, she is not a good doctor.

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

I think it's time for you to recognize that women are capable of doing the same exact things as men.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

Has anyone said they're not? All I said that a woman who works with the consequences of raping women excusing rape and most likely doing it herself is another level of low. She has one layer if thinly veiled excuse less than a non-gyn or a cis man.

Tiny_Prancer_88

105

5mo

Yeah, because she knows it's a thing and can prevent it in her own life. Colorado just changed the law where I live. They have to tell you now. OP, I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. I lost my shit when they ran a pregnancy test without informed consent, I can't imagine this violation.

foreverbaked1

5mo

Pa just changed the law here too

Tiny_Prancer_88

5mo

Good! I really am not surprised they do this to us given the history of gynecology but still enraged.

[deleted]

5mo

She probably did those exams a student herself. She's desensitized to it.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

Or trying to excuse them in order to quiet her guilt. I wonder why they need to perform exams on unconsenting people under anaesthesia. Besides the fact that they know it's horrible (which you can see in trying to keep OP from the knowledge) they can ask women if a student can perform her regular exam under supervision and they can work on each other. That's how other medical fields and nursing work and it's quite successful and works completely without raping anyone. We did everything but washing the groin on each other in nursing school when we learned how to properly do washing, the guys grew beards so the ladies could take turns in practicing wet shaving, we were encouraged to let someone strap us into a lifter so we could understand our clients better (at the time I was very thin and even my little weight hurt like hell in the straps), to use gloves when showering and to try thickened drinks (which are disgusting if you just thicken a normal drink, you need to prepare them differently to be acceptable drinks). The few things we could neither experience, note try on each other we learned at school and trained work under supervision from nurses with an extra degree in teaching the practical side of the job. Other doctors and gynecology students not working in a place that needs to be shut down don't need to violate people to learn.

[deleted]

5mo

Because the exams are on women, not men. No one would DARE perform this on men. But women are still treated like subhuman cattle. Modern medicine, unfortunately, is riddled with misogyny. Female practitioners even become misogynistic because it's what they've been taught for 10 years.

The field of modern gynecology largely exists today due to exams and experiments on enslaved black women without anesthesia or pain management. I mean hell, people are STILL taught in med school There are no nerve endings in the cervix and that pain meds are not necessary for things like IUD insertion or even biopsies.

As someone with a vagina, I have absolutely no problem with students observing and practicing...as long as I'm awake. I have complex medical needs, I understand I'm an anomaly and a great learning opportunity, but do not fucking touch me while I'm out of it. My previous surgeries were gynecology-related, so I knew they'd already be up in there.

People also need to stop treating doctors like these untouchable, omnipotent beings. Mist doctors I've seen have this superiority complex about them. How dare you ask for clarification, how dare you question them, etc. DOCTORS ARE NOT MEDICAL DEITIES. WE NEED TO STOP TREATING THEM LIKE IT. When I started viewing doctors as service providers, I became much less afraid to advocate for myself. Doctors are here to make money, at the end of the day. And if they're not listening, they don't get your money. They're really good at acting like patients have no power, but that's the opposite of the truth. Patients hold their paychecks.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

You put it very well into words.

maaybebaby

5mo

Excellent comment.

Try_Even

5mo

I hope you convinced her that there is something wrong with this. Someone who thinks this is okay has no business working in the medical profession...

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

They used to make the students practice on themselves.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

How can this be legal? It's essentially rape

eywa666

5mo

it is legal bc system is so corrupted they dont act as humans but literally as bots the end goal is money. evil always does what goodness is not willing to do. stay lucid and mentally stable sane collected nowadays are my weapons for navigating into this system which is corrupted into the backbone. the power is in my voice

[deleted]

5mo

It absolutely 100% isn't legal. If the patient doesn't understand something in their procedure, then the responsibility lies with the healthcare team. Not the patient. When I was working in the veterinary field I would read the consent form word-for-word with the owner, and get them to clarify back to me that they understood what I meant. If I didn't do my job properly, then I would be the one to blame if the owner came back and said they didn't understand something.

I believe it would be easy for OP to prove that she wasn't informed properly of the pelvic exam, because had she known, she would've refused because of her C-PTSD and past trauma. She could build a civil case for compensation for emotional distress at the very least.

schwenomorph

5mo

It IS legal, unfortunately. In the majority of states.

coquihalla

5mo

My state, thankfully, banned the practise earlier this year. It was terrifying and traumatizing before.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

In a country that allows such things I'd rather die than get surgery.

[deleted]

5mo

I'm failing to understand how it's legal, without there being informed consent? That's a complete contradiction. Even if it says that OP consented on the consent form, it obviously wasn't an informed decision.

appropriate_pangolin

5mo

It’s sort of snuck in in the parts of the paperwork where patients give consent for educational purposes. People don’t know, and I agree, it shouldn’t count as informed consent if they’re not specifically asked about it. If I go in for hand surgery or something and am asked if I’m okay with students learning from me, I would assume that meant the hand surgery part, not completely unrelated anatomy. At least it’s getting banned in more states, as more people find out that it’s a thing that happens, but it should never have been allowed at all.

[deleted]

5mo

Yeah, in that article it says

Supporters say the laws increase transparency and protect medical students from being made to conduct exams without informed consent.

They've changed the law to protect healthcare workers, not the patient. Signing a bit of paper with lots of information on it doesn't make it informed consent if the patient doesn't understand what they're signing.

There's no such thing as no-consent pelvic exams, because if the patient isn't consenting then it's battery.

To clarify- What the article is saying is that by introducing a law to get patients to give verbal and written consent for pelvic exams, they're eliminating the risk that medical students will mistakingly perform a pelvic exam without informed consent (AKA a no-consent pelvic exam). If a medical student does this, then they are in deep shit.

ProphetMuhamedAhegao

5mo

Which states is it legal in? I didn’t have luck finding the info myself

beachcollector

5mo

Which states?

Affectionate-Box-724

5mo

I'm actually in the USA, and it apparently is legal in the state I live in. I hate this fucking country sometimes.

CuriousPenguinSocks

5mo

I felt the same when I found out it was legal and there was no way to say no to it in some states.

Some states it's in the fine print of the consent form you sign. This is why so many privacy laws are attacking consent forms, they must be clearly stated and addressed so the person can actually consent to what they are signing.

I work in privacy and this is something that makes me really happy and I wish it was just blanket across the states.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

That's disgusting. But to fight it requires strength and money and is very unlikely to be successful in the US if you look at all the ways they take away women's rights.

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

That's actually not the case. There's been a movement to make this illegal and more and more states have been getting on board.

Mountain_Cry1605

5mo

I have never heard of the NHS doing this. I've heard of it in America but not here.

[deleted]

5mo

The NHS is fucking deplorable.

I’d gone in for an exam as I was having lots of pain, and the nurse did nothing except ridicule me for the entirety of the appointment about how scared I was. When I’d tried to report her I was told nothing would come of it, so there wasn’t any point in trying.

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t to subtract from the pain OP experienced in the US. Healthcare systems everywhere just simply don’t respect women as autonomous human beings.

Mountain_Cry1605

5mo

There are bad people everywhere. I'm sorry you've had that experience. My experiences with the NHS have been mostly positive.

There still is a point to reporting this through the patient advice andnliason service (PALS). You can find the contact details for your local branch if you google them.

[deleted]

5mo

The NHS is a horrifying service not fit for purpose. I was on a wait list for 4 years bedridden and suicidal, one of my friends waited 10 years for mental health help. Multiple of my friends who have been suicidal and gone to a&e are treated like the scum of the earth.

[deleted]

5mo

I think experiences are very dependent on where you live, and where I am everything is underfunded. I don’t think I’ve had a face to face appointment in the past say, four - five years?

Anywho, I’m just letting it slide. I’m too exhausted.

lexi_prop

5mo

Also commonplace in the US, I'm sorry to say.

Worth_Banana_492

5mo

Wtf 🤬

depressingwhale1

101

5mo

Hi! I'm a UK med student and we absolutely HAVE to get verbal and written consent taken by ourselves and the supervising surgeon to be able to do these exams. It must be clearly documented, and is discussed before every case whether it's appropriate. I'm not sure about how these rules work elsewhere, but I'm sure most places have similar policies. This is absolutely disgusting if that isn't what happened! I can't imagine how I'd feel if it happened to me. Please report this if you can, and find people who can stand with you. It might be worth finding the medical school that works with your local hospital and also reporting it to them if you feel you can. Please take care, I'm very sorry this happened to you.

hoping_gardens_farms

5mo

Btw, do they perform colonoscopies and rectal exams on men during surgeries?

Affectionate-Box-724

5mo

This is what I wanna know!!! Like wtf!!!

depressingwhale1

5mo

Colonoscopy no, educational rectal exams yes, but with the same process - written and verbal consent taken by student and surgeon, and documented! And these sorts of exams only happen if you're having a relevant surgery, so no one's doing an educational rectal exam on someone getting leg surgery for example.

[deleted]

5mo

I'm not an expert but this is my understanding- They could never do a colonoscopy or rectal exam without informed consent. The consent covers the whole procedure from start to finish. The only time this could be overruled is if the patient lacks capacity to consent (unconcious/ventilated) in which case the dr. can act in the patient's best interests, or if the dr seeks consent from a Lasting Power of Attorney. In that situation the LPA makes decisions on behalf of the patient.

So in an emergency situation, where the dr can't just wake you up and ask you to sign a consent form, then they could potentially do a colonoscopy/rectal exam. Like if you were in a car crash and they needed to check inside your bowel, or operate on you to save your life. Or if there was complications from another surgery and they needed to check the colon maybe?

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

This is not correct. I've spoken with men who had rectal exams done on them during surgery in the same circumstances.

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

Yes, they do prostate exams the same way. I'm not sure how common it is.

TheEndlessVortex

5mo

Nothing of that sort should ever be performed on unconcious people! I'm shocked that it's the case. So does it mean when I'm going to have my knee operation I can be then unconsciouslly used for other things?

depressingwhale1

5mo

Yeah it's very controversial, myself and I'd say most of my peers are uncomfortable with the idea, so I think it's a practice that is starting to die out. And the exams are only done if you're having a relevant surgery

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

I live in the US and have been sexually assaulted by medical professionals six times, five of those were probably directly related to me being transgender. I believe for most American doctors, patients are a means to an end...money, ego, power-tripping, and unfortunately, sexual gratification.

Holding them accountable is very difficult. It's much like the Catholic Church--when you report it, no one does anything. Report it to the police even. Nothing. If something does happen, it's usually a slap on the wrist and then the doctor can move to an new state to continue practicing. They just shuffle them around, like priests to a new parish.

So, I know of other trans people who have been taken advantage of by doctors and one whose partner thinks it was done during surgery. We actually set up peer networks to have people go with you to the doctor, so they won't assault you or refuse to treat you. I took one with me once. The nurse did it anyway.

I'm kind of at my wits end. As I age, I know I'm probably going to need surgery for additional things. What can I do to keep myself for being sexually abused during exams and surgery? I hold a bag in front of my genitals during exams now. I never let them be done alone these days, (but that doesn't stop them).

I have thought about perhaps using a body safe glue to glue a silicone sheet to cover my genitals but I'm worried that this could cause problems and be unsafe during surgery. Maybe there are chastity belt like covers that would work for afab and amab people? I also thought about rigging up something to booby trap things, like a dye that gets all over and something like the anti-rape condom...but then you're creating chaos in an operating theater with people who have your life in their hands. And what if they needed to catheterize you for some unfortunate reason?

It's not practical to shop around and try to find a surgeon who isn't transphobic. Sometimes you can't even meet your surgeon until you're in the operating room...that's how I ended up in a situation where the therapist let me know he was transphobic right before the anesthesiologist put me under.

My therapist says that I should think about it differently. She said, how would I even know? It wouldn't be happening to me but to my body, because I'd be unconscious. And for a while, I tried to make myself accept that, but I was molested in my sleep a few times (eventually, I woke up during it) and I knew that it happened before waking up. It messed me up a lot even before I had proof. Your body can tell. Awareness penetrates to a certain level of your mind. Plus, hormone therapy makes things atrophy, so if they're not super gentle with the exam while you're under, you can get tears in the foreskin, vulva, or vagina. So, I can't buy into my therapist's idea that it really wouldn't be happening to me because I am unconscious. I think I might sense it or I might be able to tell from being sore. I don't think I could bear going through this again.

I really don't know what to do. There are no really great options for prevention and there's no way to hold people accountable. You go to the police and they don't even believe you or if they do they're so pissed that you're transgender they try to bury it. You ask doctors if they're transgender friendly and they'll say they are and just do whatever they like. Doctors are excellent liars.

apenature

5mo

It may have been buried in your admission paperwork or your procedural, or anesthesia consents. It doesn't change what happened, there should've been specific informed consent for educational pelvic exams. I'm sorry you experienced this.

greyladyghost

🍰

5mo

I am so sorry- time to find someone to back you up just In case and speak to some higher ups

hoping_gardens_farms

5mo

Like who?

[deleted]

5mo

About ACS | ACS (facs.org) governing body of surgeons in USA

Signposting complaints and concerns (professionalstandards.org.uk) UK list of governing bodies

Also send an email of complaint to the hospital directly, FAO. surgeon and anyone else involved in the procedure.

Charities for victims of medical malpractice or sexual assault may have resources like a free legal team.

No-win no-fee lawyers for medical injury

TeamWaffleStomp

5mo

Regardless of how legal it is or that you technically consented on paper, I would highly recommend tracking down an email both your doctor, their department head, the head of the hospital, and so forth. If you can't find an appropriate seeming one, then hell find as many emails corresponding to that hospital on their website you can, as well as the organization that may own the hospital. I would send the same email to every single one saying who you are, that this examination was done on you while unconscious, and the consent given was NOT INFORMED. Tell them it was explained to you that your surgery would be watched and did not know you would be physically examined vaginally. Tell them that you have PTSD and the physical discomfort afterward, as well as finding out it happened at all was highly triggering for you and has left you in a state of emotional distress.

You would likely not be able to have any legal recourse, unfortunately, but personally, I think just letting them know that what happened caused you harm is important. Maybe this is me being idealistic, but wouldn't it be nice if they realized they needed to be more thorough when explaining what patients are consenting to? If doctors who had become desensitized to how procedures may impact patients emotionally had their view points reframed? It also may feel therapeutic for you as well, to get that out there.

This is just my opinion on something you could do that may make you feel better and possibly be beneficial for others who may end up in your situation. It's completely understandable if you would prefer to forget it and move on. You do what you need to do for your own mental health.

Affectionate-Box-724

5mo

I do think I might do something like this once I have calmed down more about this. I am really tired of doctors traumatizing me and I don't want this to happen to anyone else.

I feel like a lot of medical professionals don't even consider how much they can harm someone because they have a good intent but then they harm you without even thinking twice about it. At least in my experience. Thank you for your reply.

chronic-venting

5mo

sends hugs

You deserve better than this.

GoalEcstatic

5mo

The thing I can't figure out, is OP didn't consent to being a sedated guinea pig to practice on. I know prior to my multiple surgeries, I ofc signed consent forms for anesthesia, for the admissions/insurance billing, and surgical consent which basically is a statement saying that I'm informed of what the surgical plan is, I've been informed of the risks, and that's it. All done in teaching hospitals, as well. As someone who knows better than to blindly trust someone because they wear a lab coat (let's be real, they graduated but could've been with a 2.9GPA) I request every report, op notes, I want ALL OF IT. I can promise you this- had I EVER come across some horseshit like that there'd be nuclear fallout at best. Unless you're putting in or removing my catheter, there's no reason to be anywhere near that area unless y'all are doing a full well woman exam on a sedated patient who gave consent for NORMAL/ROUTINE procedures.

AppleNerdyGirl

-1

5mo

I mean this in a nutshell. They signed documents saying it was fine.

GoAhead_BakeACake

5mo

Um. I'm sorry. What?!?!??!?!?!

I'm horrified fir you and frightened for myself.

MeechiJ

5mo

I was terrified of this during my last surgery so I explicitly wrote “I do not consent to any internal or external pelvic and/or genital exam, including by speculum.” It’s awful that we have to worry about this kind of thing. I’m so sorry this happened. Please contact the patient’s ombudsman at the hospital you had your surgery. A formal written complaint should be submitted.

I haven’t received a PAP or pelvic exam in over 14 years due to trauma so I can imagine how upset and violated you must feel. Sending you a gentle hug.

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

I think I'll write this too.

[deleted]

2mo

FYI. My gynecologist does a non invasive pap. She also told me pelvic exams are not medically necessary unless you're experiencing something abnormal or if you're pregnant.

The non invasive pap she only opens you enough to get a look and swab the cervix. It's not painful like when they open the speculum.

MeechiJ

2mo

Thank you for this information. I’m working up the courage to make an appointment with a gynecologist and I’ll make sure I bring up a non invasive pap. It’s good to know that there are other options now.

[deleted]

2mo

I would google clinics first and call and ask if they are familiar with or practice non invasive paps. I have found that people who work at the women's clinics are far more considerate and more willing to think out of the box so they can provide care. I would also ask if they provide pain amd anxiety management for patients when needed. Those 2 things will tell you exactly what kind of care you'll get. Any dr who isn't willing to adapt to make a patient comfortable so they can get the care they need is not going to be the Dr you need.

[deleted]

2mo

You can also request that they only do the pap and nothing else.

MeechiJ

2mo

All such great advice. Thank you so much for your compassionate comments.

84849493

5mo

Jesus christ. I’m so sorry. You definitely would have a case for this if you feel able to take it to court.

goosenuggie

5mo

I had surgery this year, top surgery (double mastectomy with nipple grafts). And when I got home my genitals were super crazy itchy and I got a terrible infection down there a few days later. It was the worst thing that has ever happened to my nether regions! It was painful and horrible. I was bright red and scabby, which is bizarre and I have never seen anything similar. I am half convinced it was some kind of random weird hate crime by a nurse. It made my recovery much harder. I am so sorry that happened to you though, that's beyond messed up! Hugs

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

Hello...I wanted to let you know I believe you and I understand how this effects you.

I am ftm and I've been sexually assaulted by nurses and doctors five times since transitioning, a couple times they injured me during the sexual assault. I was also sexually assaulted in my sleep a few times after coming out by an obsessive transphobe and it was devastating.

I know a trans man whose partner believes this happened to him when his non transition-related surgery dragged on and on without explanation. She was completely beside herself and he was too embarrassed to talk about it. No one knew what to tell them.

Do you think there's anything we can do to prevent this during surgery? I feel like even getting phalloplasty won't stop it, because they'll want to see that too. The only thing I can really think will work is to hide that your transgender and hope they don't need to put in a catheter, but if you have top surgery scars and they need to get to your abdomen, well you can't really hide it can you. And it's not exactly safe in all cases to hide this.

I don't know how to be okay with the way that medicine treats us.

goosenuggie

5mo

I am FTM as well thank you for sharing your story and validating mine. I think it's scary that we can be medically abused but there is not much we can do about it. My friend who was there after my surgery said they misgendered me and didn't get my pronouns right once. They were rude to us and my genitals were exposed when she walked in to see me on the gurney. She said I was very out of it, more than she expected and I felt more groggy than I had anticipated. They made us leave before I was ready and I was in a TON of pain. I don't plan on getting phalloplasty, but I worry for those who do get it. It hurts my heart that we are not truly safe in the hands of medical professionals. There's not much we can do besides advocating for ourselves and having loved ones look out for us as well. I wish my friend would have felt more comfortable speaking up for me and advocating for me but she said her trust was in the doctors and should not have been.

SuitableBiscotti1096

5mo

I'm so very sorry this happened to you,I hope for healing for you, from this happening.I had a kidney biopsy years ago and had to lay on my stomach topless,and was terrified already ( I was 18 at the time ) of the procedure. While they are shoving a huge needle into my back,in walks a group of 8 young male medical Interns,to watch the procedure. One patted my hand,and said ".Its gonna be ok." (Gee thanks) I just remember feeling so damn vulnerable,nauseated/embarrassed from all the eyes watching, and didn't remember giving any consent prior to them coming in. I remember closing my eyes,and silent tears,and just wanting it to be over.

[deleted]

5mo

I'm so sorry this happened to you OP. I had a traumatic flexible sigmoidoscopy, so I understand how violating it is to be treated poorly by medical staff.

I highly recommend you to write a formal letter of complaint to the surgeons who performed the exam, and say that you want all the students, and management, involved in an investigation. Tell them exactly what has happened, and the detrimental impact this has had on your mental health and wellbeing. As horrible as it is, include as much detail as you can. More than anything, these doctors need to listen to you and understand that they have harmed you, whether they meant to or not. It's completely unacceptable. It's also important to have a detailed written account of the harm this has caused you, for claiming compensation.

I'm from the UK so I don't know the exact protocol where you live, but here there is always a complaints email for hospitals under the 'contact us' section of websites. This would be the best place to start. Keep a paper trail of everything. Don't talk to them face-to-face or on the phone. If you talk to them face-to-face, make sure you have permission to record any meetings.

In the UK doctors legally have to gain 'informed consent' to perform any procedure. In your case it wasn't informed consent because you weren't aware that a pelvic exam would take place. It is the job of the person explaining the procedure to make sure that you fully understand everything that will happen to you during the procedure. In the UK we have an organisation that registers doctors after they qualify, and they also have the power to strike doctors off the register, but also to improve standards of care moving forwards. It's a good idea to bring this issue to their attention, because they have the power to change standards and practice of care moving forwards.

This is the website for the UK Home - GMC (gmc-uk.org) to give you an idea. There should be an equivilent governing body for maintaining medical practice standards where you live.

Because these are serious legal matters, you're most likely entitled to compensation. Another commenter has said that in some States in the US they can perform pelvic exams legally without consent. I highly doubt that is true, because without informed consent, your basic human rights aren't being met. You may also need a solicitor, which you will probably be able to find for free through a charity, or no-win no-fees lawyer.

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

In America, human rights are tied to class, race, and gender. We talk a good talk about human rights, but that's pretty much all it is.

Try_Even

5mo

There is no such thing as "basic human rights" in the USA. Our government even states that food wasn't a human right at a recent meeting of the UN. Add to that the fact that women in the USA arent even considered full humans.....

eternalbettywhite

5mo

This is abhorrent. I am SO sorry. I wish these students felt empowered to say no and wait for other opportunities to get this type of experience. This just paves the path for terrible medical professionals and constantly (re)traumatized patients. I feel ill. Is there any way you feel comfortable bringing this to the hospital’s attention? This barbaric practice has to stop.

norashepard

5mo

Jesus Christ I have learned some things today from this thread. I am so sorry this happened to you.

concrete_dandelion

5mo

I'm so sorry! If you want to and live in a place where police doesn't suck you can press charges for rape. Since you didn't actually consent they have no signature of your consent and can't claim that.

spacyoddity

5mo

I am truly horrified by this abuse. I am so sorry.

curlyiqra

5mo

I don’t have words except to say I am so angry and upset for you. Being a woman in healthcare is a nightmare. I hope you get closure and justice.

Polarchuck

5mo

Most people don't know that in most states in the US it is legal to do gynecological and proctological exams on surgery patients without their consent. It usually happens in teaching hospitals.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you.

https://www.women.com/1271699/states-that-require-consent-for-pelvic-exams-while-under-anesthesia-because-anything-less-is-not-okay/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-journal-of-law-and-medicine/article/pelvic-exam-laws-in-the-united-states-a-systematic-review/3165682DE3A5D7C5D487CECD5FF02680

NurseBrianna

5mo

Get a lawyer! This is not ok. It was NOT a blanket consent! This is not ok. From a medical perspective, this is very wrong. As someone who also suffers from cptsd this is horrifying!

PixiStix236

5mo

I am so sorry this happened to you. I’ve heard horror stories of this happening to unconscious patients before (here’s an article talking about the issue and the lack of consent laws). You didn’t deserve that. They treated you like a teaching tool without your permission. It’s beyond dehumanizing. I wish the world treated you the way that you deserved to be treated.

Bad_Yoda

5mo

In Australia there is a big shift towards Trauma Informed Care in healthcare in particular. Is this a thing in the US? I already have negative opinions (with America) over the whole anti pro choice (very Handmaids Tale from my POV) Your situation sounds immensely horrible. I send all the validation/compassion I can over the ocean.

Also, seek legal advice. Get your power back, even if it is just getting an apology or be part of a movement to change this system. Creepy A.F.

Try_Even

5mo

Sadly finding doctors that even understand the concept of "trauma informed care" is extremely rare over here.

nodogsallowed23

5mo

First, I’d feel exactly like you if this happened to me. You have every right to be livid about this.

Something kind of similar happened to me. I have Crohn’s disease and therefore I get routine colonoscopies every 3 years.

I had one in 2020, everything was fine. I got a call in 2021 to let me know I was scheduled for another that year. Wtf? No I wasn’t. My next one is 2023, unless they found something wrong when rechecking my results. I freaked out a bit but then realized something was very off here.

It turns out someone came to talk to me after my procedure, where I was still quite groggy, and asked if I would sign up to do another colonoscopy for teaching purposes.

I have no recollection of this. The thing is, neither does my gastroenterologist! Meaning this person avoided seeing my doctor on purpose and knew when to come in, because once I wake up the dr comes to talk to me 30 minutes later. Every time.

So yeah, I still don’t know what happened.

Of course I wouldn’t sign of for an extra COLONOSCOPY of all things. No one would. So I guess they get you when you’re out of it an don’t know what you’re signing, then hope you go through with it because you feel pressured.

It’s all a bunch of bs.

wakigatameth

5mo

Why the fuck is there even a need for this? Aren't there enough fresh female corpses in the morgue? Or do the corpses have more rights than living, unconscious people?

User deleted comment

5mo

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

They do. Any teaching hospital can do a rectal exam of a man or a woman.

greatplainsskater

5mo

The horrific Objectification is beyond the Pale. So sorry OP.

gr33n_bliss

5mo

I had something similar happen to me. I try not to think about it because it feels so awful

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

I'm sorry. 🫂

whatever_whybother

5mo

This is horrific and I think something like this may have happened to me. Does anyone know if this is common practice in Canada?

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

I don't know but I started to look into it in America a few years ago when I was discovered just how it possible it is to hold doctors accountable for sexual abuse. There are a lot of people in America talking about the issue and there's a successfully growing political movement to make it illegal. While I was reading about this movement in america, they were talking about other countries like England and canada. So I can't remember the details, but it is possible that this is done either officially or off the books in Canada. Either way, people will be talking about it online if you look into it. I'm just saying that you should not doubt yourself

whatever_whybother

5mo

Thank you for that, I appreciate your response. I have medical related PTSD from childhood procedures and this post sent me into a bit of a tailspin yesterday. I am going to talk to my family doctor asap in the new year when she is back. I started googling and reading but it was triggering.

Helpful_Okra5953

5mo

I have ptsd partly from childhood medical procedures, too. I’m sorry this happened to you

WorriedConcept4746

5mo

your response is completely valid, I'm so sorry this happened, it's vile!! I was upset I didn't understand enough to properly give informed consent about some of my surgery and how/where my cervix was removed. It is definitely triggering, and already the surgery is a trauma in itself! I hope you can be gentle with yourself and your body ❤️❤️

Sk8-park

5mo

Please report the living fuck out of everyone who was there. That is sexual assault

kabfay

5mo

I’m so sorry this happened to you. I understand medical trauma. This was unethical and at the very least (when you get the energy), you should file a complaint with the hospital/medical board in your area. I’m only on the biomedical side of health care but I know that they should have obtained consent for everything they were going to do, this blanket consent concept is BS. And really, there are enough 3D models and actual gynaecological visits that this shouldn’t be happening to anyone. Again, I’m so sorry, sending virtual hugs.

internetuser999999

5mo

This is beyond disturbing. Even without past trauma, this is so unacceptable I have no words. But when you asked why you ‘can’t escape people hurting [you]’, my heart broke for you. It bears repeating, THERE ARE NO WORDS TO EXPRESS HOW WRONG THIS IS! If I were you I would look into a lawyer who specializes in women’s/gender issues. I know you’re exhausted and burnt out from everything you’ve been through but if you can muster the energy, I think getting some kind of justice or even just compensation could be healing and help you reclaim your power. If that’s too much, maybe you could even just make a formal a complaint. I know it may seem futile but taking action can do wonders for your self worth. I’m sorry, I know you didn’t ask for advice but I am just so outraged for you. Why on earth wouldn’t these students practice the exams on conscious, consenting gynecological patients? As far as I’m aware, there is no other medical training procedure that takes place like this. It almost seems like this is allowed solely to indulge perversions. Horrifying. Inexcusable. If I were having an unrelated surgery, I would be angry if a doctor even asked me for consent to do this while I was unconscious. Predatory, weird, invasive, perverted. I want to scream.

User deleted comment

2mo

Affectionate-Box-724

2mo

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I've really wondered if that's what they did to me as well but I have no memory of it.

All I know is that my boyfriend was there the entire time before they actually wheeled me away for surgery and he has a fantastic memory and he insists it was never brought up while he was in the room.

Yet somehow I magically 'gave consent' and signed this thing but I know I never would have. Im sorry they did that to you too, it's so wrong.

[deleted]

1mo

Did you report it anywhere? If you have your record maybe you van find a lawyer who is doing a class action

Affectionate-Box-724

2mo

One thing I just keep thinking about is is ridiculous it is they don't just pay willing participants for shit like this. They charged me $45,000 for that surgery, they could have used a tiny fraction of that to pay someone actually willing instead of just tricking them assaulting unconscious patients. It's absolutely horrible.

[deleted]

2mo

I am sure there are many other women who this happened to who do not remember and they won't ever know unless they read their medical charts. This form is also in a chart so any facility named in it will think these women consented.

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5mo

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iron_jendalen

5mo

That is not okay and definitely f-d up!

No_Wallaby_9464

5mo

I'm so, so, so sorry. This is one of my biggest fears.

claire_puppylove

5mo

Even if it’s legal in your state you might be able to sue for emotional damages. Find a lawyer and maybe try to find a way to fight it

AlabasterOctopus

5mo

I assume you start with a lawyer, just my best guess. Also I’m so sorry.

Alligax

4mo

I'm a RN. I have watched that exact thing happen. It's not safe and the ethically sound people are in the minority. I don't go to doctors, take no meds and don't carry insurance. Don't even get me started on this.

1 missing reply