OOP finds out her child is pregnant and expects OOP to raise the baby as her child's sibling

ONGOING

DO NOT COMMENT ON LINKED POSTS. I am NOT OP. Original post by u/OddDot5178 in r/AITAH

trigger warnings:

NOTE: Because everyone will wonder, I am addressing this right now. While OOP's child identifies as non-binary, she uses "she/her" pronouns and presents as a female. This is why OOP refers to her as her daughter.

AITAH For Not Wanting To Raise My NB Daughter's Baby? - Feb 7, 2024

My daughter came to me at 16 and said she was non-binary, but only sometimes. Like, some days she would feel more male than female and some days she would feel like neither. She wanted me to ask her every day what day it was and then refer to her as that pronoun of the day.

I told her that wasn’t going to fly. Growing up, I spent a lot of time on LJ (Livejournal) during the ol’ ‘bun-self’ and ‘zen-self’ ‘zir-self’ days. People who think this is new to this generation are fooling themselves. I told her that I would call her the pronoun she wanted, and do my best to remember it day to day, but she was going to have to tell me what she wanted for that day. I wasn’t going to play a daily guessing game.

This went on for about a week or two until she finally seemed to grow tired or bored and just said I could call her ‘her’. Though she still identifies as non-binary. Fine. (At least when it was going on she wanted ‘she, he, or they’ — I’m sorry but I couldn’t have done fox-self/fox-them with a straight face).

So that’s the pronoun story and looking back where I think things started to go off the handle. Here’s my real question.

My daughter is now 18, pregnant, and seems to have lost her god damned mind. Or I’m an asshole. You choose.

This year has been a struggle. She wanted to take a break year before she goes to community college, but can’t keep a job. Apparently, retail situations are too phobic against her non-binary state. (My child looks/acts/dresses exactly as a young adult female btw. When I ask how people are being phobic against her, she gets as prickly as a cactus so I really don’t know the details.). She’s been through 4 or 5 jobs this year, quit all of them. She won’t consider call centers that aren’t face to face because she doesn’t like to talk on phones, and is apparently looking for a remote job without any luck.

She’s been unemployed since Thanksgiving (she quit her last job on Black Friday, in fact) and I was on the verge of laying down the law, telling her she either needs to go to school this upcoming semester full time or get a full time job or move out with her friends.

But now she’s come to me and she’s 5 months pregnant. She’s very angry at me, says it’s my fault because:

I didn’t put her on puberty-blocking hormones when she came to me 2 years ago.
She believes I am in fact trying to ‘feminize her’ by getting her birth control. (The pill.). She’s been throwing her prescription away.

This is where I might be the asshole. I called her a little idiot. We don’t use that sort of language in my house, and I never call people names — especially my own child — but at that moment I could just see red.

The hormone thing is a non-issue IMO because this is the first time I ever heard of her wanting hormones. What was I supposed to do? Go back in time?

As for the birth control! It’s also the first time I’m hearing anything about this! There are non-pill options that don’t have estrogen. If that was her want, all she had to do was ask and I would have driven her to the doctor myself! Or she could have taken the car she has and done it. She has her own medical card, even! Though to be fair, I don’t know how she would have managed the co-pay without a job. I know for a fact her old high school gave out free condoms like candy because her friends were always giggling over flavored sample packs and even blew a few of them up like balloons and left them around the house one time. She had all the birth control she could ever want and used none of it.

It gets worse.

We’re way past the date of abortion (again, I would have helped her if this had been her wish! We live in an abortion protected state and can afford it!). She’s known she was pregnant since about 2 months and has come to think of her baby like a sibling. She expects me to raise it like it was mine. That this is my duty, in fact, because she says it is my refusal to accept her non-binary state that led to her being pregnant. So she was going to get a brother or sister and I was going to have another child.

You can say my language grew … sterner to versions of ‘Get your head out of your ass’ and ‘Congratulations, mommy, you have some hard decisions to make’, and I said I would absolutely not raise her baby for her.

She also refused to say who the father was. Now that I’ve cooled down, I’m really hoping she has a secret boyfriend. She does have some friends who were born male, but now also don’t identify that way. We didn’t even get there as I lost my mind when she said she thinks of her own baby as a sibling and wants me to raise it like my own child.

She’s locked herself in her room loudly wailing, I feel like crap warmed over. She’s been in there for 12 hours, and as she has an attached bathroom, probably won’t be coming out until she gets hungry. Considering it’s been half a day I think she has snacks stored.

I also don’t know where to go from here. Being pregnant sucks and messes with your head, so I’d like to blame that and the fear she must be feeling, but … I have the bad feeling I either raised a spoiled brat or someone with an emerging personality disorder.

So I need to know from people who aren’t emotionally involved, and maybe some people who are more in tune with this whole nonbinary thing than I am.

What do I do to help while also making her responsible for her own child? How can I help my daughter accept she must do basically the most feminine thing you can do (give birth and possibly breast-feed) while being sensitive that she’s non-binary? Am I just a big asshole here?

Typing all this out it feels like my daughter is lost in crazy town. I'm still not raising her baby but at what point do I drag a legal adult to the hospital?

Edit: You might disagree with my choices or wording, but I'm reporting people who call this bait. It's not.

Edit2: It's the middle of the night and she has decided to pack some of her clothes and stay with one of her friends. (One who I suspect is the baby daddy). Before she left she told me that she already called the police and let them know that she was 'leaving of her own free will and was not in danger'. Like I was going to report an 18 year old adult as a runaway or something? It was insulting.

I told her she needs to work out details if she wants to adopt with the father, and she was welcome back home when she had a plan in place.

It was short because I heard her on the way out. I think she just meant to leave without saying anything.

Thank you for your kind comments and advice, Reddit. I'm going to sleep.

Commenters agreed that OOP's child wasn't thinking straight:

Comment 1:

NTA.

I hate to say this, but; I sincerely hope OP's daughter chooses to give up this baby for adoption, because she's a confused hot ass mess. I don't blame OP for not wanting to step on the crazy train and raise this baby.

Comment 2:

Let’s be honest: If OP says yes to raising this child as her own, it will be the first of several. Daughter won’t take BC, so she will continue to have unprotected sex and get pregnant. She decided a couple years ago that she’s NB, expected her mother to understand that and know everything about it, and is now rewriting history to blame her mom for her now being pregnant. My head is swimming, and she’s not my daughter! There will be more babies.

Comment 3:

NB here OP.

You are SO NTA. I feel sympathy for your kid because they sound like they are so confused, maybe have body dysphoria and are now facing a life altering situation with no way out. They must feel so trapped. So they turn on you. It's easier for them to yell at and blame you instead of accepting responsibility. They are looking for a way out. We all keep changing and growing and your kid is SO young they seem to not know who they are yet and now they have to face looking after a baby when they know deep down they can't even really take care of themselves.

But my GOD the thing they did that was really stupid was chucking BC away. That is actually wild. Your kid needs to learn the difference between gender enforced stereotypes and actual biology. With biology it unfortunately doesn't matter what gender you are, the biology doesn't care, it still works the same. They NEED to learn that and differentiate.

Like I said, NTA OP. What a shit situation. I hope it gets better. I really do.

Comment 4:

NTA, your child is in fact a little idiot, with behavior that would be an absolute nightmare had you not been their parent. Also birth control isn’t a form of feminization, it’s a form of responsibility when you’re born in a body with a uterus and want to have sex that can result in pregnancy.

OOP's response:

Ugh, I wish I had those words when she hit me with that one. I sort of sputtered for a few minutes.

Comment 5:

Oh man, this is a can of worms within itself.

I wish I had better advice but just...I feel for you and the position you are stuck in.

The ONLY thing I can think of is, referring to breast feeding as "chest feeding" might make your NB daughter accept it more.

But like...there's a whole other level of things you need to get through first.

First and foremost, therapy, ASAP for your kid. Because she needs to get her head sorted out. Assuming you will just take this kid and raise it for her is...problematic to say the least. And she's got a deadline coming obviously, so therapy ASAP.

Also appointment for pregnancy checkups asap!! Has she had any? An unmonitored pregnancy can lead to complications

You might also be able to get her a social worker to go through pregnancy checkups, birthing extra.

Your kid needs a big sit down conversation about accountability for your own actions. And about how she might feel like part of YOUR actions lead to this, there was also many many choices she could have made to prevent this, that she chose not too. And at the end of the day, it was HER choices that led to this, not you.

OOP's response:

Thanks for this tip. I've written it down. The reason I mentioned she was NB because using 'breast' instead of 'chest' is the exact type of thing to send her into a pissy-fit when she's in the wrong mood. I know this may sound like a little thing, but she's always been... well, dramatic.

Because it's the internet and things are anonymous I'll admit that I am absolutely dreading pregnancy and afterbirth mood swings. Especially since it will all involve very womanly things in every intimate way. On top of the sheer stress of a newborn? Yes, I'm not looking forward to it at all and am already preparing to endure the storms.

Our conversation wasn't productive (it was an argument and she's still not out of her room) but I don't think she has had any prenatal care. That will change if I have anything to do with it.

Thanks again.

OOP commented with some of her concerns:

Yes. My worry and regret have so many places to go and a big part of it is for the baby.

This has been a bad day. :(

Responding to a comment regarding her child's entitled attitude:

Oh believe you me I have been kicking myself up and down on top of everything else. I don't know how she got to this point, but she's there now.

I wish I did have that time travel machine she clearly expects me to have.

She also clarified her overall views on the matter:

I'm on the fence. If she acted at all like she didn't have a gender (I believe that's what NB is) then I could take it more seriously. But she dresses as a woman. She puts on makeup, wears dresses during the summer, enjoys feminine things? We watch horse videos on youtube and squeal over the new foal videos. She's never been a tom boy, even.

But I was like, okay this isn't hurting her. I'll let her have this and express herself. Maybe it'll turn into something, maybe it won't. And after the first few weeks, she even dropped changing pronouns every day.

Her mentioning being NB faded and then started up hard again when high school ended and she started working retail.

I try to be understanding. Retail is hell and I'd personally only work it again if I was at my last resort. But recently it does seem to be an excuse not to work. And now she has a baby on the way.

This may not be the place for it, but I'm just worried she's regressing to a more child-like state. I don't know if she's struggling with being NB or if she's using NB as an excuse to shield herself from the world. Ugh. I guess the internet won't know, but I'm just flat out worried.

AITAH has no consensus bot but the comments were largely NTA.

Update: My NB Daughter Wants Me To Raise Her Baby - Feb 17, 2024

Hi,

This is an update to this post (Long story short my 18 year old NB daughter wanted me to raise her baby, and she told me she thinks the baby as her sibling. We had a blow-out, she locked herself in her room for most of a day, and then took off with her friends/her lover)

So this happened a few days ago but I didn’t update because I needed to get my head around it. It still doesn’t make sense.

Daughter finally unblocked me. She and the person who got her pregnant wanted to talk to me at a public place. We chose iHop.

Although I suspected I knew who her lover was, I was disappointed to find out because they have been a part of my daughter’s friend group since high school and was the only one I ever had a problem with and kicked out of my house.

They are trans now but two years ago the friend group was watching a movie in the living room, and every time I’d pass by, he (he was a he then) would lock eyes with me and make really obnoxious, loud, orgasm sounds like that scene in Harry Met Sally. I told him to knock it off and grew sterner when he did it again.

Then when I was in the kitchen, he somehow snuck up behind me and was miming jack-off movements with his hand. I turned around and caught him at it. He was still fully clothed, but it was startling and freaky. I kicked him out.

So now I’ll just call them Sperm-donor because that’s what they are.

I’m still calling my daughter ‘my daughter’ and ‘she’ because I still haven’t been told not to by her otherwise. So get off my case on that.

Anyway, the iHop meeting was a shit-show. Sperm-donor sat with my daughter and went on the attack. Sperm-donor’s points were:

I was poisoning my daughter by “making” her take birth control. (I only helped her get the prescription and would have done everything I could if I knew she didn’t want to take the pill. There are other methods!)
It will take years to “fix” my daughter after all I did. (Not giving her hormones even though I had no idea that was what she wanted. She dropped even wanting to change her pronouns after a few weeks.)
Abortion is a sin and I am a monster for suggesting it. (It’s past the date anyway.)
I am further abusing her by not taking care of the baby while she fixes herself. (I guess they meant it as a temp situation which was also new to me.)

So apparently even though I’m an abusive monster, a bad mother, and so on, I’m even worse for not taking in their baby. At least no one suggested that I raise it like my daughter’s sister anymore. That might have been my daughter’s thought on it.

Sperm-donor did most of the talking while my daughter just sat and glared at me, nodding along.

It was kind of a whirlwind, Sperm-donor pounded the table a few times, and even the waiter knew not to bother us after drinks, lol. I’m surprised we weren’t asked to leave.

There was a lot said, mostly by the sperm-donor who really seemed to be steering the ship. I asked why sperm-donor couldn’t take care of the baby and sperm-donor said their parents were even worse than me. I guess my daughter and sperm-donor taking care of the child they created is out of the question.

I told them that I would not be raising their baby for them and that adoption is the best bet. They said that if I don’t agree to raise it, they’ll make sure I’ll never see the baby ever.

I won’t raise their child for them. So that’s that, I guess.

I feel so many flavors of worried and angry and then worried all over again. I’ve been around the block and it’s never a great sign when the person you’re with makes an enemy of your family. That’s what sperm-donor has done by painting me as an abuser and failed mother who also won’t take in their baby. Sounds like sperm-donor has cut themselves off from their own family too. So I’m worried my daughter is in a very controlling relationship with someone who convinced her to stop birth control because they think hormones are too feminizing somehow and that she needs to be “fixed”. But they still want me to raise their baby.

I’m angry that my daughter can just hear this crap and nod along like, yeah, that makes total sense. She is not stupid. I think she’s love blinded.

I’m sad and worried for the baby. A couple commenters suggested I wanted nothing to do with the baby because I wouldn’t agree to raise it as my own. No, in a perfect world, I would want a normal grandmotherly relationship. Or at least know that the child is safe and has been adopted into a loving family.

I don’t care what my daughter does with her gender, or her body as long as she doesn’t hurt herself. I want her to be in a happy relationship with someone who values her for who she is. Sperm-donor kept using the word ‘fix’ which I see as another terrible sign.

It’s bad all around. My house is empty. It feels like my adult daughter has run off to join up with some weird church/cult thing who tells her that up is down. That not using birth control and not getting an abortion and then expecting others to take care of the child is all a-okay. Oh and that she’s a problem and needs to be “fixed”.

I texted her and said I would be there for her, but sperm-donor was still not welcome in the house. I think I’m blocked again.

She’s a legal adult. I’m not sure what else I can do at this point? In my low points, part of me thinks maybe I should agree to take the baby and then immediately make sure it’s adopted into a loving home. But I get the feeling that sperm-donor won’t make that easy, and right now my daughter does what he says. Also I’m not sure if that plan is even possible. It sounds Hollywood.

I have an appointment to speak with a councilor, but the soonest I could get is April. Some of my friends think I should take the baby in either to get them away from the parents or because they think it’s my duty, or both.

The only silver lining in this was that they both seemed sober. I don’t think there’s drugs involved.

Am I reading this wrong? Am I the asshole here?

Commenters agreed that sperm donor's comments made no sense, and that OOP's child was probably stuck in an abusive relationship:

Comment 1:

For your safety, I would change the locks and put up camera, Sperm-donor seems unhinged. I’m a firm believer in better safe than sorry.

Comment 2:

This baby will be used as a pawn in his never ending psycho drama. If they do not and cannot raise their baby, the best solution is adoption. Otherwise, the father will make your life a living hell.

NTA

OOP's response:

I couldn't figure out a polite way of saying this, but yes. That is my suspicion if I take in their baby. Sperm-donor implied it would be temporary while earlier my daughter said it would be permanent. I think sperm-donor will refuse to sign over paperwork when the time comes or try to leverage it in some way.

Comment 3:

NTA also it sounds like your daughter is in an abusive relationship with this person. Sorry your daughter has been brain washed by this crazy person. I would definitely contact this sperm donors family and if they seem sane warn them about how crazy both of spoke to you.

OOP's response:

That is my fear, and not a bad idea to contact sperm-donor's parents. This has all happened so far, I feel like I'm in shock and I'm very worried.

Comment 4:

Pretty wild that a trans person is saying abortion is a sin. None of this is anything like what you're going to hear from any healthy LGBT community, who are quite careful to make sure not to support people in delusional or antisocial behavior. Definitely get therapy, sounds like your kid has some serious mental health problems if they're being influenced by whatever wackos put these ideas into their head. You're going to need support in coping with this madness. NTA by a country mile. You are in no way "abusing" your kid by refusing to take responsibility for their bad choices.

OOP's response:

Thank you and yes, I don't want to minimize my daughter's role in it but the hard anti-abortion thing surprised me too. A lot of what they said contradicted itself. It felt like I was sitting across from two people who were in their own wacko bubble.

I know it's not a LGBT thing. I wish someone from their community would knock some sense into them, if its even possible at this point.

OOP hasn't posted since the last update.

Reminder - I am not the original poster. DO NOT COMMENT ON LINKED POSTS.

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Betty_Boss

2.6K

15d

She should also meet with an attorney, just to understand her legal options, if there are any.

sammotico

172

Queen of Garbage Island

15d

I have an appointment to speak with a councilor, but the soonest I could get is April.

at least there's that.

Betty_Boss

119

15d

Ah. I thought she meant counselor, like a therapist.

ahdareuu

There is only OGTHA

14d

Oh I thought she meant therapist also

AgathaM

925

built an art room for my bro

15d

The child is an adult and has moved out of the house voluntarily. It’s doubtful that there are any legal repercussions that could blow back on OOP. The only legal parts would be if OOP wanted access to the grandchild. She seems like she knows what a bad idea that is as she will have to deal with her child and the sperm donor forever.

Environmental_Art591

559

the lion, the witch and the audacit--HOW IS THERE MORE!

15d

She can atleast ask a lawyer "this is the situation, if the shit hits the fan like I fear it will, what legal options do I have to protect that baby and my daughter or that baby from my daughter if it comes to it?"

hubertburnette

278

15d

Yeah, I think seeing a lawyer is a great idea. These two sound unhinged, so they might just drop the baby off at some point, or simply move in, or...well, since everything they've done so far is not anything I would have predicted, who knows.

Bonch_and_Clyde

156

15d

I would be seriously worried about the safety of the child. These sound like people who can't even take care of themselves who are having a child. They're just spinning out trying to find any insane reason to blame anyone but themselves to avoid accountability. Babies are fragile. Many have died of neglect because of insane parents.

Moomin-Maiden

115

increasingly sexy potatoes

15d

Many have died of neglect because of insane parents.

Like the crazy-'religious' couple who starved their baby to death because 'the weak need to die'

🤮🤮🤮🤮

The open-mouthed shock that the judge didn't agree with such an Alpha Male like himself and sentenced him to life is almost ridiculous to see.

And btw, he demanded/used the prison's medical care when he became ill - apparently it doesn't go against his 'beliefs' to get medical treatment when it's free for him 😤😡😡

ExcitingEmu6328

15d

Yeah, I was reading thinking they’ll need a place to stay pretty soon after the baby gets here. I wouldn’t put it past them to just let themselves in and never leave. It would be a nightmare having sperm donor in there. He scares me.

pollyp0cketpussy

15d

Agreed, I know most states have laws that let you drop off a newborn at a police station or hospital with zero consequences (safe haven laws I think) but I don't know how that works if someone leaves a baby with you against your will and then you drop the baby off.

Tiny_Dancer97

14d

You would likely call the police and cps instead to report child Abandonment

Bonch_and_Clyde

15d

The part where a lawyer could be helpful is when it comes to ensuring the safety of her grandchild, to understand what her options are. These people don't sound stable or able to provide a safe environment for their child. This is just the start of things spiraling. They can get a lot worse.

LadyNorbert

Tomorrow is a new onion. Wish me onion. Onion

15d

Let's hope she did and that her silence doesn't suggest she's in worse trouble.

biriyanibabka

14d

This is one of those posts where I’m extremely worried about OPP. Your comment was my first reaction when I read the post. I feel like shaking her and telling her to change locks and put security cameras RIGHT NOW !

drfrink85

522

15d

If you take out ALL of their bullshit, everything single stupid argument they had and boiled it down to “uh oh pregnant”…

…condoms exist assholes.

stmariex

333

Sir, Crumb is a cat.

15d

Wouldn’t be surprised if Sperm Donor convinced the daughter forcing them to wear a condom would be transphobic because they no longer identified as male. 💀

littlebitfunny21

13d

My partner and I are both nonbinary and we don't have PIV unless we're intentionally trying for a baby cuz I don't react well to hormonal birth control and partner has a latex allergy and also condoms suck.

I side eye every straight couple thst acts like babies are unavoidable.

I cringed and whined throughout this entire post because it pains me on a deeply personal level.

_crystallil_

erupting, feral, from the cardigan screaming

12d

I bet sperm donor is very active on 4chan and Twitter.

SalvationSycamore

259

15d

person with a functioning female reproductive system has unprotected sex with a person with a functioning male reproductive system

surprised and angry when that results in a pregnancy

Maybe should have spent less time on TikTok in health class

Different_Bowler_574

14d

Bold of you to assume their state has health class.

RaggaDruida

I fail to see what my hobbies have to do with this issue

14d

…condoms exist assholes.

condoms AND assholes exist, and both are valid methods to avoid pregnancy!

srry, had to.

PurpleFlavoredCherry

2.0K

15d

Its always very interesting when ex’s, step-parents, bio-parents, kids, or whoever, accuse someone of being evil and abusive, while simultaneously demanding they take care of their baby/kids.

If I was abused by someone, I would put the baby up for closed adoption if it meant them never being able to hurt my child like they hurt me. As opposed to, you know, allowing my abuser to have unlimited and unsupervised access to my child.

SnooWords4839

391

15d

SD and daughter are making up their own lies to try to guilt OOP into conforming to their needs and wants.

Daughter needs a mental health checkup and to get away from SD.

Kopitar4president

14d

Their "needs" are they feel the need to skip the annoying sleep depriving infant stage so they can come back and be parents when the child is in a more fun stage.

AdoraBelleQueerArt

303

Go head butt a moose

15d

RIGHT?? I won’t even introduce my partners to my mother because they don’t need to be exposed to her toxic BS (less an issue now that we’re NC), but a CHILD?? After what she did to me?? Hell no

FancyPantsDancer

15d

Exactly. If these people genuinely thought someone was abusive, why would you want them to raise another person?

fauviste

15d

A lot of abused children grow up to serve their own children up to their abusive (grand)parents. It’s super duper common.

They don’t usually go about it this way tho.

Righteousaffair999

14d

Yeah they don’t acuse them and then serve them up in the same sentence.

fauviste

14d

Oh yes they totally will, because their childhood coping strategy means they believe they were uniquely bad and somehow their parents will treat their grandchildren better.

NeTiFe-anonymous

14d

Again, this is about people who were abused but are in denial about their parents being abusive. This is about people who are both comfortable calling their parents abusive and comfortable leaving their own kids with those grandparents.

sea_stomp_shanty

150

it's spelling or bigotry, you can't have both

15d

It’s almost like … if you were abused by someone, you’re adult enough to be smart enough to recognize it, unlike OP’s spawn 😅 (didn’t mean that word rudely, just felt less rude than ‘daughter’ lol)

shivroystann

3.8K

15d

This is just all round sad. Sperm donor is clearly abusive.

Additional_Meeting_2

1.1K

15d

Maybe, I am just not as convinced as OOP that the daughter is smart

AHailofDrams

324

15d

Daughter is an absolute goddamn moron

SaltJelly

244

That recipe won't stop me because I can't read

15d

Idk about OP’s child, but I’d suggest that smart people can and are taken in by manipulative people all the time - smart doesn’t mean lacking emotions or naïveté

ShreddyZ

109

This is unrelated to the cumin.

15d

Also, the smartest people in the world can still be dumbasses from time to time.

micumpleanoseshoy

14d

I just lol-ed because this is what my mum said to me "you are so smart but often trapped in abusive relationship like the dumbest person on earth". Had to drill sense in me after I got knocked up by my abusive ex. Luckily I listened and cut ties with said ex.

Xandara2

185

15d

Love can make even the smartest people into the biggest fools. But yeah the daughter is absolutely responsible for this mess just as much as her boy-/girl-/whateverfriend.

Bonch_and_Clyde

360

15d

She sounds terribly immature even for her age. I'm not convinced she's even NB or that her lover is trans. It all sounds like they're using the idea of being LGBT as an excuse to avoid being an adult and shift all responsibility from themselves.

She can't get a job because she's being discriminated against. Not because she's lazy or is scared of responsibility. She didn't take birth control because it interfered with her transition, despite never vocalizing a desire to transition, because mom was not supportive. It wasn't because she was too irresponsible and immature to practice safe sexual health. She didn't get an abortion because it's a sin to get an abortion. It wasn't because they simply avoided and ignored the issue until abortion wasn't an option any more. It's all a bunch of contradictory bullshit that doesn't have any consistency, except that it's all being used as an excuse to avoid responsibility.

Catch-a-RIIIDE

14d

If her lover is trans, I can totally see her maybe jumping on the train with them. Both their ejection from OOP's house and the daughter's own NB decisions were two years ago, when lover was already on some wacky shit (the whole kitchen scene). Not to excuse the daughter for lacking common sense, but lover sounds like an unhinged predator targeting OOP in retribution for whatever imagined slight there was when she basically rejected them.

prunemom

15d

No eighteen year old is. Most of them had to ask to use the bathroom within the past year. It’s a hard transition to legal adulthood, especially nowadays.

dd027503

15d

Ehh. Parents usually have an idea of their kids abilities assuming they're not the type that thinks their child is a perfect at everything angel. OP doesn't write like that. Also smart =/= wise

leyavin

14d

Dude sounds like Onision. The whole situation sounds like the Onision case. (Tlr a YouTuber who groomed an underaged girl, got her pregnant and she changed her whole identity for him. The videos with both of them were disturbing, to say the least)

These kind of person use any means to brainwash and control their victims. Usually a cult and religion, but other stuff will do just fine. Now he has her alienated from her family, trapped in a vulnerable position (pregnant) and put her in enough self doubt about herself as an individual (she needs to be fixed) that she feels like she is lost without his „guidance“. Very dangerous. It will take a long time for her to get free of him, if ever and will most likely in ending her harming herself.

BananaDragoon

354

15d

Sperm Donor is definitely abusive, and the Daughter is definitely suffering from a personality disorder. It's a combo that's too self destructive to stop safely. Anything OOP would do to stop that whirlwind of misery would just inflict it on herself. There's only so much you can do to save these types of people.

I feel like the only thing you can do in these situations is tell them face to face "Whenever you wake up from this insanity, I want you to know you can come home and I'll be there for you", and just hope that they don't die in the time they're disconnected from you, and remember that offer.

Smurf_Cherries

100

15d

I agree. I would have told her, “The only thing you can control in this life, is your own actions, and how you react to what’s happening. Your current choices are going to ruin your life, and lock you in a cycle of misery.

“However, you can also choose to take responsibility for your life and actions and leave. And if you ever realize that, you can come home.”

But if she cannot take responsibility for her life, this is going to keep getting worse.

LadyK8TheGr8

15d

Yep. Lived this situation. Didn’t end well for me.

peach_tea_drinker

2.7K

15d

Here's hoping OOP's child gets out from under sperm donor's thumb because this is clearly an abusive relationship.

Saint_Blaise

1.4K

15d

Yeah, it sounds like SD has weaponized gender to coerce and control OOP’s child. IMO, education about gender, sex, and relationships needs to start early so kids have age-appropriate knowledge before puberty.

natfutsock

820

15d

Just a note on that HRT IS NOT BIRTH CONTROL. You can still get or cause a pregnancy while on it, even though the chances are reduced.

Also, I tried asking about trans people in school health class and was told "we don't need to know about that" except that would've saved me some years of suicidal depression. That was back when the computer was one family computer in it's own special computer room.

Amelora

362

I can FEEL you dancing

15d

I kept reading the replies and hoping somebody would point that out. HRT is 100% not birth control it would not have helped.

coraeon

104

15d

I despair at how many young people don’t realize this.

Ramo2653

15d

Yup! Ask my friend and her trans partner and their baby that’s due in a month!

PotatoPixie90210

133

15d

One of my best friends is trans and on HRT.

He fell pregnant using condoms and had to schedule an abortion, which was obviously not a great experience for a guy.

My son is also trans but thankfully, he is very open and transparent with stuff and knows well that however he identifies, he DOES have the ABILITY to get pregnant and it's on him to take the necessary precautions to help prevent that.

pienofilling

reddit is just a bunch of triggered owls

15d

Huh. For some reason it never occurred to me, a cis-gendered middle aged woman, that anyone would think HRT was birth control. That's a horrible thought, holy crap! New reason to despair for humanity: Unlocked.

natfutsock

15d

Well, if you're a trans man, you stop menstruation. For trans women, the sperm count decreases and there's a notable, ah, consistency difference. So that's the why of it. Both drop the chances, but not to zero. I would say nobody's gotten pregnant from the strap, but I do know a guy with two moms who was conceived that way, very intentional though.

Important_Salt_3944

14d

Ok I feel like an idiot. I was in a relationship with a trans woman for 2 years. We never used condoms and I wasn't on birth control. I'm glad I got lucky with that.

natfutsock

14d

Again, it does decrease the likelihood, but not to zero like an orchiectomy would.

hannahranga

15d

Depends on your doctor but I've copped a few lectures about how HRT will destroy my ability to produce sperm (transwoman) and I absolutely must freeze a sperm sample to preserve my fertility.

HRT isn't BC but it is treated a bit 50/50 in that if your trying it will make you infertile* and if you're not you're completely capable of knocking someone up.

*Sperm quality is understandably crap on HRT but the general science is 12 or so months off HRT and you're good.

Understand this is the opposite direction to the situation OOP is talking about.

sk3lt3r

15d

Read a post about infertility and HRT (had my first meeting for starting HRT and was doing some research because infertility scares me) the other day where someone said it should be summed up as such; If you want/are trying for kids, assume you are infertile, if you don't want/aren't trying for kids, assume you are fertile and act accordingly. Thought it summed things up pretty well

danuhorus

404

15d

In OOP’s defense, I don’t think educating her about gender would’ve helped. It sounds like she’s got stuff going on way deeper than that, so if it wasn’t her gender identity, sperm donor would’ve found some other way to sink their claws into her. It’s basically a red herring at this point.

SteveD88

143

15d

The only thing I think OP got wrong was not engaging with the problem at 16 and helping the kid get professional help of some kind.

Smurf_Cherries

129

15d

It’s hard because everyone today jumps on “They need therapy.”

But there are some really bad therapists out there that can reinforce harmful attitudes and make things worse.

I had a really bad therapist first that just tried to reassure me about everything. But I was believing my own bullshit.

You need someone that can get you to see the truth you’re hiding.

So in my experience, therapy can go either way. I’ve heard some real horror stories from people using online services.

FriesWithShakeBooty

15d

I have a friend who is trans. There's a shortage of medical professionals who are trans-friendly (much less specialize in treating trans patients). The shit they hear, like, "Maybe your child developed autism because you're trans" and willfully trying to misgender them is terrible.

notthedefaultname

15d

This. I've had a terrible therapist, and have stories from others with bad ones. I think aside from there being a range of good to bad, there's also different styles that fit different people better.

For me, I don't need to journal to sort out my thoughts, I mediate and sort through them while doing other things just fine. Nor do I just need prompts to just keep venting during visits. Some people might need that- just someone to listen. For me, going and just being prompted to keep talking about negative stuff and never given tools to change anything wasn't helpful for what I was going through. I would just feel so much worse marinating in the negative for the appointment and not having anything positive come out of them. But again, I'm sure some people need to vent like that.

Like a friend who lost a parent and went in because he was struggling with the overwhelming greif. He's an atheist and the therapist just asked him why he didn't "offer his grief up to God", and then started just trying to convert him. The therapist wasn't affiliated through a church or anything. (Nothing against anyone religious, but there's times and places and this wasn't it)

I've also heard many of those online services are looked down on by many therapists, because the marketing of "always have a therapist available 24/7!" doesn't actually foster a good relationship with the therapists. It causes too much reliance on them, more transference, and other issues for the client when they don't have appropriate professional boundaries, as well as issues for the therapists who cannot maintain a work/life separation when theyre expected to always be on call (not just in an occasional emergency)

BobMortimersButthole

15d

I have an adult child who behaved much like OP's daughter. I'm my state kids can refuse therapy and psychiatric drugs at age 14. As much as I tried to get my kid to allow me to help them navigate everything, they refused to participate and the mental health professionals couldn't do much.

DMercenary

174

15d

Yeah to me it kind of sounds like getting sucked into an disinformation echo tunnel. SD is either delusional or is using it to control OOPs daughter.

Or even both!

Like the whole "evil birth control forcing feminization" sounds about two steps removed from "evil big pharma controlling the world."

maxdragonxiii

15d

it sounds like they don't understand birth control at all. yes it does give out estrogen, but it's at a low dose compared to HRT which is a higher dose I believe (correct me I can be wrong) and instead it tricks the body into thinking its pregnant.

haqiqa

🍰

15d

Estrogen-containing birth control can cause an increase in breast size which is something that can be a concern for trans people. It is exactly because it tricks your body into thinking it is pregnant. But as it contains just enough hormones to make your body think so it has less impact than pregnancy does. But estrogen-containing birth control is not the only type of birth control, even hormonal birth control.

maxdragonxiii

15d

I focused on estrogen as it is the only hormone I know that is used in HRT. others had since told me progesterone is used, which I did forget because I'm on the shot which is progesterone only birth control, well as combined estrogen/progesterone birth control. but the child in question is presenting themself as female, making no changes towards anything that would be changing the gender towards non binary or male if they are non binary or trans. they also do not communicate that they desire to be on any medication and blames OOP for not reading their minds that they magically want to be non binary or trans.

haqiqa

🍰

15d

I am just responding about birth control pills being feminizing. They can actually be that. OOP did not do anything wrong in helping the daughter get them. And if that is wrong as the father thinks it is following the logic getting her pregnant is worse.

HRT uses mostly estrogen and progesterone for transfeminine and perimenopausal people and testosterone for transmasculine people. But not entirely sure why you are linking HRT and birth control. Genuinely, I am ESL so I might just be stupid.

Forever-Distracted

I will never jeopardize the beans.

15d

It depends on the BC you take. I'm not sure of how the combined pill works, but that is indeed how the mini pill works. The mini pill (and depo shot, which I take) is progesterone-only and contains no estrogen. It does make your body believe it's pregnant, which is why you don't (generally) get periods on it. It's also the one usually suggested to people who are overweight or have high blood pressure, because something about the combined pill can mess with that stuff. I use progesterone-only BC specfically because of it stopping periods, since that's what messed with my gender dysphoria the most (as I'm transmasc), and the shot because my memory fucking sucks and it was absolutely miserable to deal with the consequences of forgetting the pill, lol

And yeah, the estrogen content of HRT is higher than what's in the combined pill

KatKit52

I still have questions that will need to wait for God.

15d

I think this is a good example of how abusers will weaponize ANY and EVERY thing.

Like, there's multiple accounts of people being sucked into cults centered around fandoms. There's absolutely racist, sexist, and abusive members of the queer community. Women can be abusive to others. Heck, I knew someone who was abused through fucking Warrior Cats.

That's why I think this is an issue about an unhealthy relationship. The gender and sexuality stuff is the veneer.

ETA: and also I think the fact that the daughter is a she/her non-binary isn't as weird as many might think. There are plenty of nb women and men. And gender fluidity (what OOP described her 16 year old doing) isn't undocumented either. Not to say that OOP is transphobic the way their daughter claims, but rather that most of the things the daughter talks about are relatively known in the queer community.

accountforAITA

14d

Okay I know that it’s not the main point but I’d be very interested in hearing that Warrior cat story

Riyeko

sowing chaos has intriguing possibilities

15d

I had this talk with all my kids when they were age appropriate.

I then had a second more in depth conversation with one of my children because they became non binary. They did have some reservations about birth control and how it works and we went down to the doctors where they had all of their questions answered at length.

My little one is safe, protected and has a better understanding of themselves and their biology than I ever thought possible.

I really hate how some parents want to keep their children in the dark about sex, biology, gender... All that. Then they all explode and scream WHYYYYY at the top of their lungs to anyone who will listen.

It's like, no duh dumb shit... You didn educate them and now you've got a pregnant 16yr old. What did you think would happen?

archbish99

Saw the Blueberry Walrus

15d

It's funny. My older child is a boy, curious about everything science, so we just got an age-appropriate "how reproduction works" book when he was about 6 and he loved it.

My younger is a girl, freaked out by the very idea of mothers and babies, so we haven't pushed her into knowing much about how mothers get and grow babies. But she'll need to know details at some point....

Xxvelvet

15d

Fuck all those puritanical politicians who want sex ed banned

Danivelle

178

everyone's mama

15d

She/they won't until they do some growing up. They are still in a place where they expect mom/dad to fix everything for them. I would keep miminal contact for the sake of the baby but back way off with contact until this fool realizes that they are now an adult and responsibke for for their own issues.

Travelchick8

158

15d

What really stands out is how much the daughter expected OOP to read her mind. If she can’t speak up for herself then the SD has found the perfect victim.

notthedefaultname

15d

With the perfect tool to alienate her from anyone else "they don't understand you, they hate a core part of who you are, I'm the only one that understands you" and making her hyper sensitive to triggers of people not respecting the non binary. She can't hold a job, is pregnant and vulnerable, and he's isolating her from her support like her parents. He's got her trapped into being dependant on and only receptive to him.

hpfan1516

Where are my pearls? I must clutch them!

15d

Absolutely. Something is absolutely not right here with child's SO. Something just seems so wrong and predatory. (Fwiw I am on the LGBTQIA+ spectrum)

dajur1

291

15d

Honestly, OOP's daughter is abusive as well and it sounds like they deserve eachother. OOP and the baby are the people I'm worried about.

Lou_Miss

132

15d

Daughter sounds more like a confused kid lashing out at everyone not enabling her than anything else.

OOP doesn't know a lot of lgbt+ and the daughter doesn't seem too either. Perfect target for an abuser.

divorcedbp

717

15d

“It’s your fault that I’m pregnant because you didn’t give me the puberty blockers (that I didn’t tell you that I wanted) when I was 16 (and well past puberty). Also, it’s your fault because you did help me get hormonal birth control when I asked for it, but then I didn’t take it and changed my mind and didn’t tell you. Also, it’s your fault because I had sex.”

That poor, poor baby.

Scarboroughwarning

300

15d

Indeed.

Literally zero accountability.

"You're a terrible parent, mum! Here, please raise my child"

ryegye24

214

15d

I want to know how OOPs child being NB meant that SD couldn't wear a fucking condom...

Scarboroughwarning

15d

Women don't wear condoms..../s

Xandara2

15d

Women condoms exist but she probably would have found it too feminine.

Low-Main-8199

🍰

15d

A good amount of these comments aren’t holding her accountable either for some reason??? Just based off them, you’d think this dude was a damn ventriloquist and she had 0 free will or decision making abilities.

Scarboroughwarning

15d

I have not looked. Not sure I can face it....

The kid is mentally fucked. As is her partner. Simply should not be anywhere near kids, let alone reproducing.

I see it often with work. It's always someone else's fault. Trust me, when I've fucked up, it's my fault.

I often tell people the biggest danger to me, in my life, has been me

darling_lycosidae

138

15d

They also could have asked for a form of birth control that ended their period, which you could argue is also just as "feminine" as pregnancy.

But condoms on a penis should be the default regardless of the gender of either party. They're both fucking stupid for that alone.

wheatgrass_feetgrass

167

15d

They also could have asked for a form of birth control that ended their period, which you could argue is also just as "feminine" as pregnancy.

Dude. This is where I knew OOP's kid is really fucking confused. I am NBspec and know a TON of AFAB NB folks. A very convenient HRT option for an AFAB NB person once they've already gone through puberty (like this child when she asked) is NOT fucking puberty blockers. Menses is usually tied with chest size as being the two biggest sources of dysphoria. So along with safe binding, the next step is to go on whatever HRT is required to entirely stop menses. And no, that is NOT testosterone. Not even T will reliably stop all periods! AND you can still get pregnant on T! There are few things more dysphoria inducing in most trans AFAB folks than being pregnant! But there is a safe, cheap, widely available medication that stops menses with almost zero "feminizing" effects in an AFAB person. What is it? CONTINUOUS LOW DOSE MOTHERFUCKING BIRTH CONTROL.

This poor kid has been taken for one hell of a ride by a really dangerous and abusive person who happens to be trans. I have a feeling a lot of her ludicrous ideas about what being trans even means is from her partner who is a really manipulative source. Trans women can take birth control as a "street" HRT for feminization because BC can be feminizing in AMAB folks. So gee I wonder where she got that idea from... I also bet her partner is low-key homophobic and that's why she isn't "allowed" to identify as a woman, because then that makes them lesbians. This whole thing is really sad but unfortunately I think OP is handling it the only way she can.

darling_lycosidae

15d

I didn't even think of the homophobic angle of them being lesbians but it totally tracks with the "abortion is sin" comment.

NotAllOwled

15d

That's how the Twin Flames cult came to have so many trans folks, right? Basically mandatory gender reassignment so that everyone can have a "correct"/mystically ordained M-F pairing?

microthoughts

15d

Yep.

I can't even comprehend that. Like as a fairly nonbinary person the idea of someone else telling me what my gender is is big ick. I can understand how you get caught in it but that particular version of weird cult is especially gross to my maybe some gender bi ass.

I feel bad for this girl. However the only way out through something like this is actually realizing what you're in so all the OOP can do is keep communication open and hope.

Her partner is same kinda gross as the twin flames guy except I guess from the other direction.

Sqooshytoes

15d

This comment is the first one that helped me begin to understand their thought process. Starts dating a homophobic, conservative-minded abusive person, and suddenly OOP’s daughter’s confusion about her gender, reluctance for birth control, and belief that her mother is the source of all her problems, combined with neither of them understanding how biology, bc, and HRT work, and suddenly this story makes some sense

CuriousPenguinSocks

314

crow whisperer

15d

My brother, who is gay, fell into a group that was toxic like this. I'm also bi, we grew up in the south, so it wasn't easy. His "friends" convinced him I was abusive and didn't care about him but I was the only one who gave him a place to stay when he needed, money without question.

Their "proof" was I don't call, well it's hard to do that when he changed his number and didn't give it to me. Apparently I was supposed to go all stalker because that's "real love". I had to step back at that point which was tough.

He got into a ring of older men who manipulated and used younger gay men for their selfishness.

My little brother who used to call me mom, and whom I protected as much as I could from our abusive home life, was never the same after that. The hardest thing was to let him go and I didn't even birth him.

My heart is torn for OOP, she seems like a good parent who tries to understand their child.

Marzopup

771

15d

Did a time else catch 'abortion is a sin' and have to do a double take.

To be clear, plenty of people have a complicated relationship with their religion, and being trans does not preclude one from having religious views....but it does strike me that generally the overlap between lgbtq and pro-life religious person is pretty low. What?

I mean, most likely it was just a very hamfisted attempt at manipulation, but still.

WrongdoerElegant4617

323

15d

I know a few pro life lgbt people, including two super alt right trans women 🤷🏽‍♀️

PlasticStranger210

123

I’m turning into an unskippable cutscene in therapy

15d

The cognitive dissonance there must be really intense. Wow.

fauviste

148

15d

It isn’t. Just like “the only moral abortion is my abortion” is the mindset of conservative cis women. They’re special, you see, and therefore it’s ok for them… it’s everybody else who’s evil.

PlasticStranger210

I’m turning into an unskippable cutscene in therapy

15d

You're right, you're right. People like that can justify anything that benefits them.

tachycardicIVu

NOT CARROTS

15d

Aha I see you’ve met NC’s candidate for governor whose wife has had an abortion and yet he is staunchly against them for everyone else. 🥴

GenghisConscience

212

15d

Yep, the only alt-right hardcore misogynists I know in the LGBTQ community are either gay men or trans women. I’m sure there are others from the spectrum, but that’s what I’ve experienced.

yellowroosterbird

122

15d

There's a decent amount for very conservative lesbians.

practical-junkie

15d

And then there is a plethora of closeted religious bi people as well. I have met a lot of them.

Ps. I am bi myself, no way throwing shade on the whole of bi community

modernwunder

168

VERDICT: REMOVED BEFORE VERDICT RENDERED

15d

I mean, Caitlyn Jenner is the poster child of Queer Republicans. Insanity but I’ve seen enough of it to not find it hard to believe. You may also find examples in r/leopardsatemyface

krilltucky

134

15d

Overlap between the LGBT and groups that would 100% end them if they could is actually REALLY common.

There are dark recesses of the internet where furries with nazi fursonas and trans women with the slur vocabulary of a 40s southern sheriff meet up...

Discord.

CalamityClambake

15d

There are dark recesses of the internet where furries with nazi furspnas and trans women with the slur vocabulary of a 40s southern sheriff meet up...

This is exactly what I thought of. Sperm Donor sounds just like Foxler.

(Foxler is an infamous furry YouTube "celebrity" whose fursona is a fox in an SS uniform. He's a hard-right, fascist white supremacist who supports trans people and is himself not white. He has followers on 4chan. It's wild.)

JulianApostat

15d

Somehow I expected that there is a limit to contradicting ideals someone can hold before they implode. It seems that there isn't.

Seriously wtf.

thefinalgoat

I would love to give her a lobotomy

15d

Holy shit Foxler is a POC? Wtf?

CalamityClambake

15d

Yeah. His mom is Thai.

kia75

15d

There are certain people that are fine with bullying, othering, abusing, and hurting other groups, they just don't want their group to be abused. So yes, there are gay people who hate others, furries who hate others, trans who hate others, Jews who hate others, etc.

IME, many targetted minorities feel empathy towards other targeted groups, but there will always be those people who have no empathy.

sea_stomp_shanty

it's spelling or bigotry, you can't have both

15d

It doesn’t surprise me — lots of misogynists in the queer movement, after all :/

bitchthatwaspromised

I’m turning into an unskippable cutscene in therapy

15d

The most overt mysogyny I’ve experienced has been from gay men, especially when they learn I’m queer. I just had an incident last week with two nasty men easily 20 years older than me and I felt like they were trying to be middle school mean girls and I used to be an actual middle school teacher

sea_stomp_shanty

it's spelling or bigotry, you can't have both

15d

I will say, as a bi genderqueer woman who grew up gaming, the MOST overt misogyny I experienced was from gamers.

… followed by gay men 😭

SalvationSycamore

15d

Trans and impregnating someone out of wedlock. Complicated religious views indeed.

BlueLightBookWyrm

15d

Shes surprised that they weren't thrown out of IHOP. I'm not. The entire place would be listening into all the drama

ArketaMihgo

14d

OMG do we go to the same IHOP? The manager at ours once joked to our waitress that they only kick out the loud people when they become boring or obnoxious, because they're so much easier to hear in the kitchen

Sad-Lake-3382

14d

Same like I’d tell my husband not to speak so I could get the tea!

FivebyFive

455

15d

I have a cousin like OP's daughter. They came out, parents were accepting, grandparents were confused but doing their best.

It was like they wanted people to reject them so they could be angry? So they kept coming up with wilder and more specific criteria you had to follow to "prove" your acceptance, each time cutting out people who got it wrong out of ignorance, fatigue, or plain old fashioned confusion.

Finally they cut everyone off, except the grandparent who gives them money. And then cut her off when the money dried up (because Grandma is broke).

notthedefaultname

15d

This sounds like a lot of (I forget the word? There's a specific thing) behavior and how it escalates. The "proof" you love them doesn't last so they seek a more extreme reassurance. But when the behavior is expressed and comes out as a "protected" thing people don't want to be the asshole that shuts it down at a reasonable time to shut down the behavior and it spirals. And shit like this is so bad for the LGBT community, because people acting out like this is why some phobic people think it's all "just for attention" or whatever BS, and lets them justify dismissing a whole demographic of people. When it's really individuals with mental health problems, not even necessarily relating to LGBT.

FivebyFive

15d

That makes a lot of sense. They do always seem like they're seeking more and more love, though it's given by so many.

I agree, some would see this as something about the community as a whole, instead of an individual. Which is a shame.

Naiinsky

164

15d

The kid in this story is severely unbalanced, and I'll bet most of it started when the sperm donor entered the picture. The way he talks is almost cultish. He probably took her gender identity issues and insecurities and started building on them.

maxdragonxiii

15d

the kid was already unbalanced when they don't communicate with OOP about anything and guessing OOP can read her mind...

Naiinsky

15d

Oh, I agree. But the other guy made the situation truly impossible. To the point that OP should be looking into ways to protect herself from them.

maxdragonxiii

15d

yeah, I would give up and basically say you're on your own. after being accused of abuse how can you trust me with your kid. ultimately theres nothing OOP can do because the child is an adult and pregnant and unwilling to get help they truly need regardless of... the mess they are in. OOP's child certainly expect OOP to bail them out regardless of what they say. I know it's harsh but...

FivebyFive

15d

Yeah absolutely. He seems incredibly abusive. That's how they start, isolating their victims from family.

peakingoranges

15d

That makes me sad. I hope your family is healing!

stmariex

Sir, Crumb is a cat.

15d

A lot of Gen Z and Younger millennials treat victimhood like the ultimate online currency. If you’re not being mistreated in some way you lose your cred. So if they have a loving accepting family they often go out of their way to try and spark discord otherwise. It’s fucked up and a reason why I left so many online spaces.

Xxvelvet

15d

Makes me mad because they’re SO lucky to have accepting people when other people have DIED or SUFFERED for being lgbt

Exotic-Army4006

238

15d

Damn. I'm not sure there's enough therapy in the world to deal with all that

DryChemist7593

BRILLIANT BRIDAL BITCHAZZZ

15d

Should’ve been a therapist ,god damn. I would have been lying on dollar bills as of now.

captaincopperbeard

141

He's effectively already dead, and I dont do necromancy

15d

All I can think while reading this is just how... violent I feel like would have become with Sperm Donor. The whole "orgasm sounds" and mimicking jacking off behind OOP? What the fuck is that? And then to speak to her like that in a public place? I think SD chose a restaurant to meet because they thought it would make it difficult for OOP to respond to them in any meaningful way, but I just... I think I would have gone to jail.

MagicFlyingBus

14d

The whole "orgasm sounds" and mimicking jacking off behind OOP?

Ive known people who do this and it is so bloody obnoxious.

UpperMiddleSass

14d

Fully agree and if I knew you, I’d bail you out.

ericbana19

15d

Lol! Yeah, I felt the same. I'm a guy and I would've knocked his teeth out, despite being not violently inclined.

mignyau

560

15d

If you’re an old enough queer who grew up in the internet age and hang with various queer communities, personalities like OOP’s kid are extremely real. Just because you’re NB or trans doesn’t mean you aren’t a shitshow of a person despite loving and supportive parents.

These types of people aren’t actually very bright at all and/or indeed have burgeoning personality disorders, but access to places like tiktok or tumblr has given them vocabulary and practice debate scenarios to make them seem much smarter and self-aware than they actually are. Supportive parents absolutely are trapped by this, because everything their kid tells them sounds exactly like the nightmare abuse scenario they’re trying to avoid perpetuating, but their sources are the original sources that got mangled in a game of clout telephone that their kids accessed on an Instagram carousel or Twitter thread from someone with a picrew pfp.

Imo OOP’s kid just wasn’t as smart as OOP thought, is indeed entitled and kinda wack, but IS clearly lovestruck and a victim of an abusive relationship. Victimhood doesn’t preclude being an absolutely nasty person. I really feel for OOP man, she did the best she could and is a step above for both enforcing her own (extremely reasonable) boundaries while making it clear she will accept the kid back without question.

NotAllOwled

15d

Victimhood doesn’t preclude being an absolutely nasty person.

This one bears underscoring, as it seems to trip SO MANY people up SO OFTEN. Having wrong done to you doesn't automatically make you in the right.

Seriousgyro

166

15d

Yeeaaah.

Is it possibly rage-bait? Sure, every story can be.

Do people like this exist, however rarely or not? Abso-fucking-lutely.

wheatgrass_feetgrass

113

15d

Do people like this exist, however rarely or not? Abso-fucking-lutely.

I don't mind ragebaity posts like this for exactly this reason. If the comments can rise above and give a nuanced, informed, inclusive, trans friendly answer; it is VITAL to have that sort of conversation. Queer folks who can, MUST engage in such careful conversations. Refusing to acknowledge bad actors exist at all just fuels bigotry against us and is a silly concept anyway since abusive fuckheads come in all persuasions.

Kindly_Zucchini7405

15d

Reading this made the Beloved Saga come back into my head. Just because you're queer doesn't mean you can't hurt people. Even if they're "not supportive" the way you think they should be.

sea_stomp_shanty

it's spelling or bigotry, you can't have both

15d

This!! Thank you for putting it so well. ❤️

Kalgul

15d

This is a very well-said response, and I'm glad you made it.

randothrowaway6600

147

grape juice dump truck dumpy butt

15d

Professional victim found an enabler. These types will nestle themselves into vulnerable communities to shield themselves from consequences.

UpperMiddleSass

14d

This was beautifully succinct. 🤌

YakActual4869

165

15d

This whole thing feels like a fever dream…..

hemlockandholly

15d

It reads like one too. I can't make any sense out of this but I'm also assuming there's not much sense to begin with

FriesWithShakeBooty

106

15d

If we take gender identity out of the equation, it sounds like we have two 18-year-olds who refuse to take any responsibility for themselves or their choices. Everything is always someone else's fault. The grownups should simultaneously do all the things to prevent these kids from being the architects of their own misfortune, but also leave them alone and not interfere.

OOP should get CPS involved.

moogs_writes

1.1K

15d

Puberty-blockers at 16….and OPs daughter assumed they would…work? 💀

Also as much as people hate to hear it, people weaponize their gender identity all the time. Funny how sperm-donor displays really common toxic male behavior, I’m willing to bet that sperm-donor is even worse to the daughter behind closed doors and uses their “woman” identity to deflect and guilt trip her into staying. Abusive sperm-donors love to wait until they’ve baby-trapped women to start with the abuse, how they identify literally doesn’t matter.

Sensitive_Fawn522

390

15d

Honestly that's one of OPs daughters smartest assumptions

peach_tea_drinker

282

15d

Right? But it goes along well with the rest of her delusions 🤷🏻‍♂️

inscrutableJ

You need some self-esteem and a lawyer

15d

Blockers do their thing regardless of age, but don't reverse much if any of what's already happened. They put 40-year-olds on blockers all the time and they really do seem to help. Things are a little different for AFAB trans medical care though, and often doctors won't do anything to interrupt estrogen production after a certain stage in puberty (without surgery that can only occur in adulthood) because that can cause uterine health issues.

Another issue is cost; pill-based blockers for an AMAB person are less than a dollar a day in countries where you have to pay for prescriptions, but depo-Lupron (injected blocker that works against estrogens) is more than the average car payment per month. The most likely outcome of seeking hormone blockers at her age, ironically, would be birth control pills of the type without estrogen that allow for only a few periods per year.

meresithea

It's always Twins

15d

The manufacturer of Lupron has a FANTASTIC coupon program. List price for Lupron is about $10k USD a dose (this is for the 3 month shot). My insurance copay for that would have been about $350. With the coupon from the manufacturer? My copay was $10. Medication pricing is a SCAM. (If I had to pay $350 I would have found a way to keep my kid sane and healthy, but damn I’m glad I didn’t have to!)

otisanek

15d

Based on my interactions with a family member and their extended friend group, being NB or trans does not make you any more medically informed than the average 16yr old. Magical thinking about the realities of medical science, and a complete lack of any curiosity about how things work, and you’ve got a 16yr old who thinks sex in a pool can’t result in pregnancy, or that puberty blockers can work retroactively in any significant sense.
Some people never grow out of it, and that’s how we get “essential oils cured my sciatica, tuberculosis, and fungal overgrowth” while Aunt Jill tries to sell everyone on her magical oil MLM.

inscrutableJ

You need some self-esteem and a lawyer

15d

Trans woman with a nonbinary kid here. The basic Depo-Provera birth control shot could've at least helped if hormonal BC was causing worse dysphoria, since it's at least partially effective as a blocker. Hormonal BC pills basically mimic pregnancy hormones to stop ovulation, so I can see that being part of the daughter's problem with them, but Lilith on a purple surfboard there are other options! And OOP had no way of knowing this kid needed or wanted blockers because the kid didn't communicate. "Use your words" needs to be its own class in school.

Naiinsky

15d

Basically. I'm non-binary but fine with my body as-is, even when I'm on birth control. NB people cover a huge range, and it would be impossible for this mother to guess the child's needs on that information alone.

IAbstainFromSociety

15d

I'm non-binary and was a complete dysfunctional self-hating mess before starting estrogen. I was so screwed up that I took chemical castration and still was feeling way better than when I still had endogenous hormone production. I haven't changed anything about my appearance and take raloxifene to suppress breast growth, so I still look like a man with only subtle differences. This is why gender is a spectrum and you can't throw everyone into a handful of categories, everyone's needs are different.

Aurorious

15d

Puberty blockers is probably too late at this point but HRT definitely would have had a major effect, skeletal structures not really set till your mid 20’s. Possible OP just lacks knowledge and misspoke.

And if anyone older than 25 is reading this wondering if they’re trans but it’s too late, nah even if your skeleton doesn’t change it’s still transformative.

moogs_writes

15d

Possibly, but I’m actually more inclined to think that their daughter is the one who lacks knowledge here..

Unless I’m just misinformed? Is it common for NB people to seek medical transition? Most NB people I see usually socially transition or just change their pronouns.

I think if OOPs kid had sat down for even 5 minutes with an endocrinologist or specialist they would have been able to learn a lot…

Zestyclose-Pianist82

15d

They do actually. I know more about afab nb people but a lot of times they might want to get top surgery to appear more “neutral” or go on hormones for a period of time until they get the desired physical changes like a deeper voice or more facial/body hair.

(Fun fact: in that one study that’s cited a lot by people who talk about how almost 3% of all trans people detransition, nb people who go on hormones for a short time and go off them once they’ve gotten the deeper voice or whatever it was they were taking them for are counted in those numbers so it’s inaccurate.)

EnvironmentalBuy244

15d

You mean that they don't make grown breasts shrink and narrow the pelvis?

Schrodingers_Dude

15d

I have a feeling OOP's kid has so many weird takes because early in their questioning journey they met this manipulative, insane chick (don't remember if she said sperm donor was trans-femme or what) and just had their entire brain scrambled, so instead of actually learning what being nonbinary is about, they got this confused version based around "your family is evil, I'm all you need."

Like, I've been there. Male? Female? Genderfluid? Bigender??? And eventually I settled on generic "nonbinary, call me whatever the hell you want." The process is confusing af as it is, but toss in some lunatic with an agenda and this is what you get.

fingern4ilmoon

15d

The difficult thing about being NB is that there is no clear "end goal" to transition. If you're a binary trans woman, it's like there's a whole map there: here is how to look, walk, talk, dress, etc. for cis people to "get it". This isn't objectively a good thing - it creates expectations and pressure and even violence over passing vs not passing.

But, in comparison, NB people have to basically build our own map from scratch. And it can be very hard, and very lonely. Gender is a huge piece of how we communicate with other people. If you're trying to transcend that, then you are forfeiting being understood easily.

I navigated all this in my late 20s and it was still hard. Imagine being a dumb teen...

AxlNoir25

101

15d

Jesus what a shit show. After the meeting with the sperm-donor, I feel worse for the daughter than I originally did. It seems like they’re the one feeding the daughter with these ideas, and they’re painting the mom as an evil person and trying to isolate her when mom doesn’t play along and agree to watch the baby. Weird situation but also potential to get progressively more dangerous since the sperm donor is involved.

blumoon138

15d

Yeah this kind of reads like abusive and controlling non-binary person trying to convince their victim that they are also trans and need to be “fixed.” I have a LOT of non-binary and trans friends and also a few people in my life for whom exploration of a trans identity was part of something else going on, so I’ve seen both sides of it.

Cursd818

the Iranian yogurt is not the issue here

15d

Sperm donor has found a new way to be abusive by weaponising identity issues. That's the long and short of it. The same abusive POS, just with a few changes to the script.

SalvationSycamore

15d

enby that throws away BC and has raw sex then gets angry at mother because that resulted in a pregnancy

transfem that impregnates someone out of wedlock and thinks abortion is an unforgiveable sin

I really hope they warm up to adoption because these two would be a shitshow as parents.

Exciting_Telephone65

15d

Baby must be due very soon at this point, wonder how this has evolved.

KarinSpaink

15d

it’s never a great sign when the person you’re with makes an enemy of
your family. That’s what sperm-donor has done by painting me as an
abuser and failed mother who also won’t take in their baby. Sounds like
sperm-donor has cut themselves off from their own family too. So I’m
worried my daughter is in a very controlling relationship

Spot on, unfortunately.

Knittingfairy09113

15d

I feel for OOP. Their child needs therapy and shouldn't be around the sperm-donor who is an abusive AH.

Thek40

15d

Abortion is a sin, said by a non-binary and a trans person? that just so bizarre.

patchiepatch

being delulu is not the solulu

15d

Considering right wing LGBT people exist. I'm not surprised pro life LGBT people also exist.

fauviste

15d

Caitlyn Jenner posts memes about how awful liberals are producing trans kids, so…

Thek40

15d

I'm not from the US so this sound so weird to me.
Like a big part of the LGBTQ+ movement is freedom of choice.

ResoluteMuse

15d

OOP needs to speak to a lawyer and a preemptive chat with her local police station ASAP. Information will be critical in the coming months. This will not be the last time demands are made and escalations occur.

I forsee, demands for money, threats to press charges for abuse, extortion right on up to threatening to just drop the baby off somewhere.

OOP needs to get her ducks in a row before the curtains open on this shitshow.

bunbunbunny1925

15d

I feel like CPS might need to be involved. I know they can sometimes help pregnant people at risk, but I'm also worried CPS could do more damage than good. I'm just so concerned. I think cameras are needed in the house, and OOP needs to record any phone calls she might get from her child or SD. This all seems really scary and unstable.

notthedefaultname

15d

"Adopt the baby" "If you won't raise it we won't let you see it" WTF do you think would happen if it got adopted? That she'd be visiting and playing grandma with the adopted family?

hemlockandholly

138

15d

Dude I'm non binary and have met just about every shade of genderqueer out there. This is not a non binary problem lmao. This is a "your kid is insane and has so many other issues" problem. Every sentence of this was wild and cringe worthy

Practical_Fee_2586

I’m turning into an unskippable cutscene in therapy

15d

Yeah!!

I'm enby too, and even a similar "flavor" to OOP's kid where I'm she/they to friends, but they/them to everyone else and occasionally wear dresses or otherwise "present" in a feminine way. I have no problems with identifying as trans or enby and still presenting however you want, especially while figuring shit out.

So, I feel pretty confident saying that her gender identity isn't the issue. This is abuse and some level of mental disorder that just happens to be themed around gender identity. If OOP's mom wasn't being blamed for this, it'd be something else like, idfk, not supporting her relationship enough or not paying enough attention to her as a kid or something.

I started out thinking this was a troll post and got less and less sure the further I scrolled, honestly. My heart sank when I got to the end of the post :(

EnvironmentalBuy244

15d

It can be one of two scenarios.

Just like there are plenty of nutso cis-gender people, there are nutso people on the gueergender spectrum.

Or the alternative is that crazy teens know being trans pushes buttons and are embracing it for that goal.

Itchy-News5199

15d

Well they have to work it out. They are adults and have consequences. They don’t yet understand that they make their own choices and these are the consequences. I hope OP fig out that the blame her daughter tried to dump on her was the lies her sperm donor programmed her with. Because a guy w such a low IQ would believe she should have known without being told. Clearly he is dialed into information that’s not available for the regular life living people of this plant.

OP needs to protect herself. Honestly. Having that baby adopted by parents who can take care of it is the best option. I suspect a small part of the daughter knows this but Beevus there is in her ear and drowning out any common sense she has.

My hope is OP is keeping a journal. Keeping online or safe with dates times and interactions. Whenever they maybe. Opportunity in the future met present itself that authorities can be contacted and her accounting may get her daughter and her grandchild help they so desperately need. This is way above OP pay grade.

I would be curious how “bad” his parents are. If they are half “as bad” as OP I bet they are actually good people.

Mountain-Raspberry37

14d

If OOP is such “an abusive monster” etc according to sperm donor, why would they want their child being raised by OOP? Doesn’t make sense. You can tell they are kids by their thought process!

Evening-Ad-2820

15d

Seems like some very mentally unbalanced people who should have been getting mental help, instead, got pregnant and made it everyone else's fault and problem. They are in for a rude awakening, and I'm betting oop will end up with the kid when they get removed from the mother.

Edit because I have fat fingers and a little phone.

ophophopheli

15d

As someone who is both queer and nonbinary, I will never understand this idea that queer people cannot also be terrible. Like, the queerness does not negate the bad parts of their personality, and it certainly doesn’t make you immune to fucking up and being held accountable. I sincerely hope things work out, but I wouldn’t be holding my breath any time soon 🤷🏼‍♀️

Xxvelvet

15d

This child is an absolute entitled idiot lol.

wisegirl_93

I said that was concerning bc Crumb is a cat

15d

I just have one thing to say... Woof.

Human_City

15d

Speaking as an LGBT from a supportive family, all of whom I love, I’ve met other gays from supportive families who do something similar to this. There is, I think, a bit of a conception that to be LGBTQ is to suffer. And if they aren’t suffering, they don’t feel connected to the community, many of whose members HAVE had very cruel and unsupportive families. So they manufacture a family that does fit their identity, and does make them feel like they’re part of the community. A small comment that would, to me, warrant a joke or a polite correction, becomes evidence of what they knew already to be true- the families of gay people are homophobic!

For the people I knew, it was a brief stint in high school, and they have connected with their families again. I mean, teenagers see their parents as the Enemy anyways, even without the added pressure of being gay. I very much hope that this young person manages to reconnect with their mother, who seems to be tired of their shit but misses them. Maybe then there will be room to discuss the problems that actually exist in their relationship. This person is eighteen, after all.

prettyghoulgf

Behold! The dildo of consequence! Unlubed for your misery.

15d

I know she’s being abused and it’s rough being in that position but man for most of this post i wanted to punch OOP’s daughter in the face😭 Im the same age as her and i’m a demi-girl who takes the pill and the entitlement from her is just SO insane

VivienneSection

15d

Oh Jesus Christ on a wet biscuit… as a trans (jk) people like this give us such a bad name. Which is somehow the worst and least of OP’s problem’s here. Sperm donor is the kind of trans person JKR froths at the mouth about. The rest of us just want to be chill.

That said I don’t think there’s anything else you can do but let the kid FA and FO. They’re a legal adult after all. Which is really painful if you’re the parent but it’s out of OP’s hands.

tantalides

the wheels of justice move slowly unless you're on reddit

15d

i don't miss being a teenager.

sea_stomp_shanty

it's spelling or bigotry, you can't have both

15d

I was 1,000% on OP’s side the first time around….

… for exactly this reason. :|

spikepoint

15d

I’m a queer adult that was pushed out of my folks’ house as a teen for being this way, so I never thought I’d read a post that has me siding with the “cishet parent”, but truly the behavior here from the daughter is so unhinged that it’s hard to see a non-therapy answer that isn’t leaving her to the consequences of her actions, in the hopes that they bring her to reality. I hope she can consider adoption at some point. :(

That there appears to be an abusive force acting in bad faith (the sperm doner) only makes the whole situation that much more volatile

DSQ

15d

The OP should call social services to make sure they are monitoring the welfare of that baby. That’s pretty much all she can do in this situation without, as a commenter said, being sucked into a never ending psycho drama.

Much-Meringue-7467

15d

There are three separate characteristics at play here: stupid, crazy, and gender non-conforming. None of them are mutually exclusive.

Lone_Eagle4

15d

That person is going to ruin OOP’s daughter’s life 😔

WollyGog

15d

Sometimes, for all the will in the world, kids are just fuck ups. That was fucking exhausting to read. OOP's kid and all their circle are basically just dickheads. Gender, sexuality etc., can't affect that.

PathAdvanced2415

This is unrelated to the cumin.

14d

And sperm donor couldn’t use a condom because they were too busy blowing them up? SD sounds like the reason you send your kid to boarding school in Switzerland.