Loyalty is admirable, but the stakes here are literally the future of Democracy. I get Newsom can't be seen pushing Biden out because that would ruin his chances, but regardless this just seems like a piss poor argument for keeping Biden on the ticket.
I think Biden did a good job, but it's clear he's no longer capable to do the hardest job in the world, his time has passed. It is time to have the American people's back.
Well, yeah
We’re not upset with Biden because he was an awful president, not really. We’re upset with him because we’re not sure if he’ll win. Not the worst reason to be upset with him, but not the best
The New York Times has added more new Biden stories today. It's becoming their favorite story. It's the "buttery males" of 2024.
They keep turning up the heat. Sadly, we're all frogs in a pot. It's bullshit.
Biden is old, but we chose this ticket back in 2020. We know how succession works, should it need to. This is a nonsense story that the NYT will keep stoking until you thoroughly doubt yourself.
The press’ complicity in the rise of Trump is the truly shameful story of the past 8 or so years and the NYT has been the worst, followed closely by WaPo. Every damn day, dozens did articles on that POS. Or other articles stirring up doubts about Biden from unnamed sources. It was shit reporting about Republicans and it’s shit reporting about Democrats.
Clicks and eyeballs. That all these people want. They don’t give a damn about our country. I don’t care what condition Biden is on Election Day - if he’s on the ticket, I’m voting for him.
The NYT Chairperson also has a weird personal vendetta against Biden. But they've long been going downhill, same with WaPo.
but we chose this ticket back in 2020
I'm pretty sure I remember a lot of indications that he would step down after one term.
The Biden campaign had to actively push back on this perception. You're not wrong that you heard it, but it wasn't Biden saying it.
Are you? Because he never said that. Nobody said that.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/09/politics/joe-biden-bridge-new-generation-of-leaders/index.html
“Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else,” Biden said. “There’s an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me. They are the future of this country.”
The nod to three people expected to be considered for the vice presidential nomination was the most direct the 77-year-old former vice president has been about how he views his role within the party.
He has long pledged to return the nation to pre-President Donald Trump normalcy. But he and his aides have declined to address whether, if elected, he would run for a second term in 2024. He has said only that he would not run again if he were in poor health.
Your quote never says he promised to be a one-term President.
Yep, and they're still there. Successful Presidents get to run second terms. Why? Because they win reelection.
We picked a ticket with that bridge built right into it. Should Biden become incapacitated, Harris will move up seamlessly, as has happened eight previous times in our country's history.
I think you're missing the fact that most of us have thought through these scenarios way back in 2020 and we don't see a need to get hysterical just because the NYT thinks we should.
Every President is elected with a VP that’s supposed to be qualified to take over. The bridge phrase only has meaning as a one-term President.
The bridge phrase only has meaning as a one-term President.
You insist on that inference, I guess? Doesn't seem so obvious to me, but okay.
Then I'll just use the term continuity, as in, millions of voters have had the opportunity to reconsider the successful ticket. They knew they would have to think about what happens if Joe became incapacitated, too. They did. Don't underestimate people.
I wonder if a do-over might piss those people off?
That doesn’t say anything about stepping down after 1 term. There’s nothing in there that even suggests that.
A president who wins gets to run for a second term.
I’m pretty sure that was just hopes and dreams and copium projected into him as an assumption from the faction of the left that wanted Bernie.
He never mentioned or promised that.
He would’ve if Trump went away. It was all predicated on that. Tbh, I had hope Trump would have had a serious health issue or prison time by now. The legal issues didn’t move fast enough.
we chose this ticket back in 2020
And now it’s 2024 and we should choose a ticket for 2024.
The process for choosing a ticket in 2024 or any election year is called a primary, and the 2024 primary just ended with Biden having over 3700 delegates. Closing the barn door after the horses escape isn't going to help here, and there is no examples of incumbent presidents stepping down in their election year only for their party to win.
Let’s not pretend it was an open and fair primary. No debates, no campaigning, no town halls, no chance for us to see his mental acumen in person. The party shut down any semblance of a real primary and are now trying to act like Joe Biden won against real competition.
Dean Phillips did run as an option for a sane candidate that wasn't as old as Biden. Democratic primary voters didn't vote for him.
Let’s not pretend it was an open and fair primary.
It was an open and fair primary though. Anyone could have chosen to run against Biden, and several people did. The ones with the influence to have a chance against Biden choose to not enter the primary because they already knew that an incumbent president who had already defeated Trump was our best chance against beating Trump.
No debates, no campaigning, no town halls, no chance for us to see his mental acumen in person.
That last one is a lie, just because there wasn't a serious contender for Biden's position doesn't mean he isn't in the public all the time. His mental acumen is fine.
But regardless, if you are upset about how Biden won a fair primary with no serious challenger, how can you be OK by the DNC simply choosing Biden's replacement with no primary at all? That's ten times worse than what you are complaining about and if that happens I'm still voting for Biden even if I have to write his name on the ballot. I doubt I'll be the only one either.
Let’s not be dense and ignore the reality of what happened here. This was like an “election” in a non-democratic country. He didn’t face a single serious challenger. All of the people considered serious presidential challengers knew that Biden’s camp and the national party would seriously limit their future chances if they challenged him.
His mental acumen doesn’t seem fine. Last week was the first time we’ve seen Biden in an unscripted nationally televised Q&A format in a while and he absolutely bombed. Looked lost, looked like the man the right has been painting him out to be for years. And where’s he been since? He’s certainly not calming anyone’s fears.
It’s too late to have a real primary, but it’s not too late to prevent a devastating loss for democracy, which is my only concern at this point.
Let’s not be dense and ignore the reality of what happened here. This was like an “election” in a non-democratic country. He didn’t face a single serious challenger.
How is that different than almost any incumbent presidential primary ever? In fact the rare exception when an incumbent president does face a serious challenger it almost always means that the party is going to lose the presidential election regardless of the primary outcome. Also you are being hyperbolic, there is no democratic obligation that all of a president's primary opponents meet some vague threshold of "serious" to be considered a democracy.
His mental acumen doesn’t seem fine.
And I disagree.
Last week was the first time we’ve seen Biden in an unscripted nationally televised Q&A format in a while and he absolutely bombed.
You mean aside from all those interviews Biden has done from Howard Stern to Seth Meyers? Also he's far from the first person to bomb a debate, even Obama (one of the best public speakers out there) bombed in a debate once. But hey, at least he didn't scream at a rally like Howard Dean, wouldn't that have been terrible? Thankfully President Kerry won that election and Beat Bush back in 2004.
And where’s he been since?
He's made several public appearances since then, in fact the next morning he did a public rally in New Jersey.
It’s too late to have a real primary, but it’s not too late to prevent a devastating loss for democracy
The only way to prevent a (further) disaster for democracy at this point is to vote, donate, volunteer, and get other people to vote for Biden. Believing in some hail Mary religious bullshit that some Democratic Jesus is going to save us from on high if only Biden sacrifices himself to the rating gods is just a way to divide us instead of focusing on actually beating Trump.
which is my only concern at this point.
It shouldn't be. SCOTUS effectively put Chekov's gun in the drawer, letting any president trigger the end of our democracy, not just Trump, an Enabling Act for America. When Julius Caesar was assassinated it sparked a Liberator's civil war, a war fought between Caesar's assassins (Brutus and Longinus) against Octavius and Mark Anthony. As you probably know the latter won, but the truth is that it wouldn't have mattered who won, the Republic was already dead. Brutus and Longinus had no intention of restoring the Republic and were already minting coins to make them appear as emperor gods.
The issue isn't that Trump might win and end democracy although that is the most serious problem, the issue is that anyone else could do the same, including anyone appointed by the DNC even if hypothetically they had a real chance of winning the election against Trump (which is also highly unlikely). Not only is there not a reasonable plan of someone who could replace Biden this late in the game and have the same much less better odds of winning against Trump, but then we'd have to worry about him becoming a dictator which we know Biden won't.
”we know how succession works, should it need to”
Yes, exactly. So let Harris succeed. Part of a representative democracy is the understanding that parts are replaceable if they share common goals. The representatives themselves don’t get to place personal matters first, that would be a corruption of democracy. I really do think that keeping Biden would be doing nothing but following through on a promise made in an entirely different context.
Yes, exactly. So let Harris succeed.
Yes, exactly. That will happen when needed. Not when the NYT says so.
Look, Biden beat Trump once, and he'll beat him again on a rematch. My money's on Biden. Trump is not electable. How many felons would you vote for to run the country? Let alone a 34-count felon. Even without his felony convictions, he is toast for the 2024 presidential election. Trump will lose by a greater margin in the next election than he did in 2020 against Biden. Reason: many who voted for him in the last election will not vote for him again.
It's a possibility- maybe the most likely one- but not a sure thing. I have little faith in the ability of Americans to make smart decisions.
When Trump ran against Biden the last time, from the very beginning of his campaign, I told my wife and others he would lose the election. And I'm feeling the same thing again. That's IF he makes it to the ballot.
Trump will not be elected president of the US again. He's made far more enemies among his own party than he knows. Most literally can't stand him. That's a lot of the ones smiling in his face. They hate him. For one, his behavior has made a mockery of their party.
No. I’ll support almost any reasonable person the DNC runs, but these potential contenders gain nothing by turning on Biden and lose nothing by supporting him a bit longer.
Except the election
Exactly...
Biden is screwing america just like RBG.
like most things, hubris is America's downfall...
There is no serious replacement option other than Kamala. Due to campaign finance laws and state campaign laws regarding the ballot, Joe and Kamala are our nominees.
If the contenders come out against Biden now, they’ll only look like political opportunists. The question was if their public support is enough to just accept Biden running. It’s not, and we shouldn’t read much into them both supporting him because not supporting him while the decision is made would look bad.
I don't feel any obligation to support Biden.
I will vote blue no matter who etc but I just don't feel that kind of loyalty to my president, whoever they are
I don't feel any obligation to support Biden.
As a liberal, I do feel an obligation, but its not about personality. Successful Presidents get to run again. Biden's age was something we all had to consider back in 2020.
I counted on him being successful and running again. I also considered Harris as a backup in 2020, and she's still here in 2024.
Wow. Continuity. Just like we planned.
Continuity until..
I hope I'm wrong
There's no "until", its all laid out in the Constitution. And succession has been used successfully eight times.
No. Don’t get me wrong, I think Biden’s admin has been the best of my lifetime. Many great things passed, dramatic reduction in the use of troops, etc. but he also is old and theoretically if it looks like he might not succeed to win a second term because of that, he owes it to us to be honest about that.
I’ll still vote for him if he’s the one, but we don’t owe him anything.
I am voting for him too, if he's our guy. But the only votes he's getting at this point are "blue no matter whats"
There is no reason to believe any legitimate person Biden picks as his VP wouldn't be able to serve as an effective president for a term if Biden has to leave office due to an invoked 25th or if he passes. That's the entire reason they are there.
To me it's a no-brainer. An unknown quantity vs Trump. I'll go with the former every time.
I don't care about loyalty, hurt feelings, who's in line for what. It is too important that we win in a free and fair election to stop Trump for ruining this country.
Who gives us a better chance that can replace Biden this late?
Replacers, it's over. Make your peace with it.
Seriously, I'm skeptical of anyone pushing this narrative.
Get the fuck outta here with the Biden hand wringing and pearl clutching.
Want to keep Trump out of the White House? Then quit chiming in on the troll farm produced right wing media frenzy bullshit and support Biden!
How do people not understand the troll farms and right wing social media operations by now?
Let's unpack it a little bit. Just how has Biden had our backs, and why would that call for support for him now?
In case you didn’t notice, Biden drove historic legislation addressing climate change, he actually helped spark the return of manufacturing to the US. He’s invested in the future with the CHIPS, he drove through historic and long-overdue funding for infrastructure. He’d driven the forgiveness of student loan debt for hundreds of thousands of people — the list goes on and on.
His age and experience is a big part of why he was able to do all this. Do you think Bernie could get any republicans support for his priorities? Newsom? AOC?
So when we say it’s time to have his back, it means we need to support and defend him so he can continue delivering for the people of the US.
Jasmine Crockett had a great tweet about it: 1) Who? 2) Explain how they get a presidential campaign up and running in 4 months. 3) How do they get funding? Biden's warchest can not transfer over. 4) How do you expllain to the millions that have already voted in primaries that their votes don't count?
Biden's war chest can be moved to a Super PAC
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/harris-bidens-campaign-cash-drops-runs-president-111658487
You dodged the biggest part of this question.
Who would replace him? Who doesn't have their own baggage (or less baggage), but has enough name recognition?
Who else does anyone think really stands a chance?
Bernie (lmao)?
Warren (who lost to Biden before and has been vilified as bad as Hillary)?
Buttiedge (also been demonized by the right)?
Who?
Trump polls worse than Bidden against all of these. The biggest issue with each is they are relatively unknown (see link below). Biden is/was polling better than them, but that is expected if they are unknown. If America does anything well it's PR. Look at Hawk Tuah. You can become a star over night.
Pete Buttigieg
Cory Booker
Gavin Newsom
Amy Klobuchar
Gretchen Whitmer
Josh Shapiro
J.B. Pritzker
Yes, because these polls have never shown systemic flaws before, especially a year or more from an election. Plus, you'd be surprised by how much people will say one thing but actually do another.
So many excuses just to avoid accepting the obvious truth. Joe Biden lost the election last Thursday. Everyone knows it. It’s all anyone is talking about. Get out. Talk to actual voters
The obvious truth is if he loses, it's all our fault. We had an opportunity a year ago to choose someone else and we didn't. We had an opportunity 4 years ago to choose someone else and we didn't. We can either rally to keep trump out, or be like Bernie bros in 2016 and cut off our nose to spite our face.
I for one don't like the idea of a trump presidency with more competent staff around him, and basically unshackled power to cause as much damage as possible.
Am I happy about Biden being the nominee? No. Doesn't it matter at this point? No.
If we swap him, it's an uphill battle against Trump, with 3-6 months lost for campaigning. There's no positive in this situation, so we can either "what-if" and further hurt Biden's chance, or rally.
In 3 months, people will have completely forgotten about that debate unless we keep talking about it. Like inflation, perception matters more than any actual market forces in keeping it under control.
At this point, I'll take the marching orders given and push the campaign forward, because anything else is a waste of breath and detrimental to protecting democracy in the US.
You're pretty insufferable with pushing conjecture as settled fact. You have failed to make any salient points here and have only come across like you are going to push this narrative at all costs. Tagging you as such for all your future AskLiberals posts since that's all you seem to do.
The reason to run Biden is because he has already won the primary, it is a two party system, and he is superior to the other person in every way.
Not in debating
Donald is clearly better at bluster, but if the “debate” was evaluated based on the actual content of each man’s comments many people would say that President Biden actually won. That’s certainly the reaction of many who read a transcript versus those who watched on television.
I don’t want to make too much of the fact that Donald’s famously overdone coloring looked more natural or President Biden’s generally healthy look was shifted to a paler appearance.
In the same way, microphone levels are customarily set for an event like this so that viewers won’t have to adjust the volume depending upon who is speaking—not that the president would win a screaming contest with Trump, but…
None of this is intended to pretend that President Biden is usually particularly skilled at this type of joint press conference. He isn’t. He really never has been.
At the same time, if we consider the other dimensions of the job, Joe Biden stacks up very favorably with Trump. Others are free, of course, to ignore that.
Biden is the candidate.
We're not choosing to run him. He is running.
The time to pick Dem candidates was months ago. Primary voters already cast votes for Biden.
Y'all need to let this go. Biden is the candidate, unless he himself drops.
Sheesh.
Side note, hilarious how the people that think the DNC did Bernie dirty are now gleefully talking about the DNC doing Biden dirty after he's winning primaries handily.
I think this is a concern trolling question.
The presidency is bigger than one person, even bigger than Biden.
Four months before an election is not an appropriate time to replace a candidate. Because all undecided voters will vote for Trump if you introduce someone new at this point. There is absolutely no data to the contrary.
Actually, polls show that a number of replacements fare at least as well as Biden in head-to-head matchups against Trump. Pod Save America and 538 have had recent podcasts about it. The vast majority--almost all--of Biden's support is "not Trump." It's not "pro Biden". The democrats could run almost literally anyone else and we'd have at least the current state of the race.
For the past four years Joe Biden has been an excellent president. There is every reason to believe he will continue to be so. If Joe Biden should become unable to do so then VP Kamala Harris will step in as President. It’s in the constitution.
That’s it.
There is really nothing more to discuss.
Every reason?
Can we discuss how people who are swing voters, or inclined not to vote have no reason to vote for Biden?
Go right ahead. If you actually support Joe Biden then start with that. Next consider all the elected Dems support Joe Biden. Finally he has done a great job for the past four years.
Then talk to the undecided about their concerns.
I just did, they said he can’t last another four years as President.
Next consider all the elected Dems support Joe Biden.
Not entirely sure if maybe you mean something else by “support” but there are atleast 2 federal Dems who have called for a replacement and atleast 2 others who have said Biden will probably lose to Trump.
Wow. In a group of literally thousands of elected Dems you find 2. Bet all your money on that will you?
I saw a statement that was wrong and decided to clarify it for you. You need to have thicker skin if that’s a problem.
My skin is fine. I was trying to point out the forest for the trees.
If he found one, then your statement isn't accurate.
Swing voters have 2 options for who will become their President: a senile fascist or a senile non-fascist.
If they decide not to vote for Biden, Biden's age won't be the reason.
They will stay home. We have another option, put forward a competent candidate swing voters will vote for.
Scolding them to do the right thing won’t work
OK. So they will stay home and then complain when the senile fascist wins?
Seems like these swing voters are, frankly, extremely dumb or they silently support fascism. There is no in-between.
Or we could run someone swing voters would vote for?
Shaming them won’t get them to vote. Why not face reality?
It's not shaming them.
Have you talked to any swing voter who is currently undecided between voting Trump or voting Biden? If so, what are their values and core political beliefs?
Are they comfortable with the death of democracy?
They are swing voters. By definition they don’t care. You are morally superior to them because you do care. Will that make you feel better when Trump wins because they stayed home, but you did the right thing voting for feeble Biden?
But she’s a disaster. Loyalty isn’t a good enough reason. Kids need to try to trot someone out there who could win.
There are no bad reasons to run Biden when his opponent is a puppet of one of America's enemies, when his loyalties are easily bought by foreign nations. There are no bad reasons when his opponent is a rapist, and a felon, and a racist. There are no bad reason when his opponent tear-gassed his own fellow citizens to clear the way for a photo op. There are no bad reasons to run Biden against someone who is so anti-American.
If the choice is Biden or the new face of fascism, then the choice is clearly Biden.
For you. For me. You know that “vote blue no matter what” isn’t super appealing to the average swing voter. The want to be appealed to.
The average swing voter is dumb. If GN stepped in, it would make the whole Democratic Party look weak to the average swing voter (a voter who can't decide between fascism or not fascism), so showing that he had confidence in Biden is the smart political strategy.
Belittling swing voters isn’t a win strategy. Nor is gaslighting them that Biden is fine.
I am not belittling them. If they can't make up their minds between Biden or the guy who led Jan 6th, they are, indeed, stupid.
Since they are stupid, a smart argument will go over their heads.
I hope this smugness in you superior voting brings you joy in Trump’s gulag
I didn't say anything controversial. At this point, if you can over look everything wrong with Trump, you are probably not a "swing voter." You are a Trump supporter.
And, if you truly cannot make up your mind between TWO candidates in a clear state of cognitive decline, but ONE of them didn't led Jan 6th, then --get ready--you are dumb!
How, exactly, do you plan to appeal to this voter?
Just stop already. You are repeating the Hilary debacle of 2016 when the left attacked her almost as mercilessly as the right, and the media ate it up with a bit of foreign meddling sprinkled on top. JUST STOP. You're weakening our chances of defeating Trump and FASCISM by this ridiculous infighting and handwringing when we should be getting behind the candidate that stands against fascism. If he dies, guess what? We have a VP who ALSO will protect this country against fascism.
Just stop already.
You are standing on the tracks facing on oncoming freight train with your palm out saying "stop." Thursday happened. It is unrecoverable. Joe has to go. The tide is turning by the hour. Denying it won't make Joe an electable candidate. Please spend a half hour reading the news, reading what people are saying on social media, looking at the polls.
The danger of Trump is way too high to sleepwalk into a loss. Taking action won't be easy but staying the course hands this to Trump.
Maybe the danger of Trump is way too high to be divided.
Circling the wagons around someone the swing voters have lost faith in is the wrong move in the face of the Trump threat.
It's too late for switching, you're only playing into their hands by trying to undercut the only alternative to Trump. The GOP appreciates your efforts, though.
I feel like you aren't fully accepting how unlikely Biden is to win currently. 538 had the odds at 20% BEFORE the debate if the race were tomorrow. Surely they're below 10% now. A loss is a loss. The math is to decide if an alternative grows that more than 10% which is a low bar.
Accepting defeat because we'd have to run this like every campaign prior to 1972 is a terrible argument. It's not easy, but it's doable.
Your loyalty is admirable, but misguided. The data says Biden can't win.
This implies you're not really asking a question
Yes it is absolutely recoverable. People have bad days. You're suggesting we pick fascism instead. That is exactly what will happen if you continue to peddle this narrative that we should just replace Joe this late in the game. YOU are trying to sell that the tide is turning. YOU are doing Putin and Xi's dirty work by sowing chaos. This is a repeat of 2016. YOU will have blood on your hands if Trump wins because of this.
Would you be comfortable with Joe having a "bad day" like that and having to deescalate a nuclear crisis with Putin?
He is no longer qualified for the hardest job in the world.
You're suggesting we pick fascism instead
Quite the contrary, the threat of fascism is so great we need to make a drastic change and put forth a candidate that can actually win, rather than sleepwalking into fascism out of denial or a misguide sense of loyalty. I would say you are not taking the threat of fascism seriously enough.
YOU are trying to sell that the tide is turning.
I am paying attention to the growing number of democratic officials and strategists waking up to the very difficult reality that we urgently need to make a change or we will lose.
You too will come to this conclusion eventually.
Yes. You think mentally ill lying, child rapist, felon who sold his office for profit, instigated a violent coup attempt, and wants to install fascism through project 2025 would be better?
Clearly you're unaware of 2016, the partisan infighting that took place, the Bernie Bros bashing HIllary with help from the Russians, and the media that ate it up. Do you know what the result of that was? Were you alive then?
You think mentally ill lying, child rapist, felon who sold his office for profit, instigated a violent coup attempt, and wants to install fascism through project 2025 would be better?
FFS you're disingenuous, read my words.
Quite the contrary, the threat of fascism is so great we need to make a drastic change and put forth a candidate that can actually win, rather than sleepwalking into fascism out of denial or a misguide sense of loyalty. I would say you are not taking the threat of fascism seriously enough.
Please spend a half hour reading the news
Media owned by billionaires that want a tax cut who are running the Biden story non-stop, yet ignoring the Epstein release and trump raping girls? Or his jet sitting for 2 days next to both russian and saudi planes where a simple wi-fi signal could be transferring national secrets?
It is unrecoverable
They're manipulating you. Or, you're attempting to manipulate.
Show me the evidence of Biden's incapacity. If you could find it (there's none), then I would show you the solution that millions of Americans picked out in 2020. Her name's Kamala and she's there if we need her.
As a liberal, I would tell people to fucking relax.
And my wife cancelled our NYT subscription yesterday. Funnily, she arrived at the same conclusions as me before we ever even talked about it.
FFS I am an adult with agency who watched the debate which was the evidence
As am I. As are undecideds, who decided Biden won the debate.
Relax.
You told me my opinion was manipulated. I trust you to have your opinions based on what you saw. You don't trust me to draw my own conclusions based on what I saw.
Then present a better plan. Posts that say “we should abandon the current plan!!” are entirely counterproductive. If you have an alternative that’s clearly better then we can have a conversation. But until then, whether you’re right or not about the current situation (and I’m far from sold), you’re just making things worse.
Fwiw this is so obvious I generally assume these posts are from conservative or Russian trolls or bots. Which only stiffens my resolve, as much as I try to keep too much emotion out of politics.
Shut up, don’t disagree, and don’t ask questions, in the name of fighting facism
But you're assuming that anyone else can be placed in front of that train and not get run over. If it's not Biden, then who? Who can unite the party and energize the voter base at this point?
Can Biden do that? Even if he has all his faculties intact, he looks weak, sounds weak. For some people, that's all it takes. They may not vote for Trump, but they won't vote for Biden, either.
BTW. How are there even "swing voters" anymore? I think these people just want to feel important. How could any rational human have a problem deciding against Trump? It makes no sense.
Bruh lol He had one debate that didn't go very well. Peeps gotta relax.
One debate? We’ve been saying he’s too old since 2020. I’ve seen this guy debate in his prime. That wasn’t a bad debate. It was a disgrace.
This isn't something that's going to improve
I'm with you in the sense that it was one debate in June. But we also need to recognize it wasn't just a bad debate. Romney v Obama first debate was a bad debate. This was apocalyptic. The man wiffed on the most basic platform policy positions. He's got my vote but now I'm not sure if this man has the capacity to do any fighting on our behalf against a Republican party that's launching its attack.
They're shitting their pants right now like he isn't a man in his 80s with a history of stuttering who we were told had a cold before coming into the debate who had flown to several countries in the two weeks preceding. The man was jetlagged, sick, and tired. That's it.
We've all live the past 4 years of this administration. We've all seen what they've managed to accomplish despite enormous opposition. This is the same man who has weathered every fake Republican congressional investigation and their shitshow of house leadership and obstructionism. Nothing has changed.
Biden isn't senile. Slower, probably. But not senile. He's gotten more done with less than practically any president in recent history. I wasn't his supporter in 2020, but he's proven that he's extremely effective. In two weeks, the press will find something new to latch onto, and the polls will normalize because he's going to keep doing events. Everyone except for the NYT will have moved on, because the NYT is still butthurt that he won't give them privileged access, and they're flinging shit at the wall, hoping it will stick.
But that might be the only debate, if Trump were smart. There were only 2 last time and 3 the election before. Debates are the most valuable thing we have to defeat Trump and there have only been 6 in the last 8 years. It's the only chance to force him to answer to the public not on his terms and run circles around him and show the world the incompetent child he is. Not only did Biden fail to do that but it was the complete opposite. There's no realistic path for Biden to turn the narrative around.
Run Biden, run a fucking 2x2in square of carpet. I don't care. I'm voting blue regardless. I'm not going to sit the election out, and I'm not going to vote for a Sons of Anarchy Chester Cheetoh.
Me as well, but I am not an undecided voter Joe needs to sway to win the election.
Genuinely, if someone is truly undecided at this point, we have bigger fish to fry. This shouldn't be a close race at all. It's fascism or not. That's literally it. How can you go "well one guy is old but actually wants the country to succeed and the other guy is old, too, but wants us to become Russia! Gee, this really is a toss up. I need to see more in order to make an informed decision about which guy I should vote for."
The situation is what it is. Not liking it is irrelevant
I mean, the whole thing being debated is the premise you just said. Is running a new candidate less risky than letting Biden run?
That's probably what they're trying to figure out right now, but until then no one important is going to come out and call for Biden's resignation, and the white house will not acknowledge any resignation until the last minute, so why would they?
Trump supporters are loyal to Trump for the sake of being loyal to Trump. If you're loyal to Joe Biden, it's not because he's a mythical figure we think is gonna fix everything, it's because the party believes that he has the best case of beating Trump (until they don't, in which case we move our support to the next guy).
You got 2 choices, Biden or the racist rapist nazi, is Biden REALLY that bad?
Swing voters are trying to decide between the two and Thursday’s debate made it much more likely they’ll vote for Trump. Your moral smugness doesn’t matter
Absolutely not. Elections are about the future and not who was nice to us in the past.
Concise and highly accurate.
My standard reply to people saying Biden has done well for us is to ask "Why not run JFK? He was awesome before he'd be awesome now."
People change.
Who would you replace him with?
Most of these are good choices, their biggest problem is they are unknown to voters.
This is out of date by now, but Trump does worse against all of them than he does against Biden. Biden does better than them, but again they are relatively unknown. PR can solve that.
All of them have problems getting on the ballot in states in which the filing deadline has passed and none of them can inherit the Biden fundraising war chest. So your plan is to replace Biden with someone who can't get on the ballot in certain states and who has no money?
Edit: The replacement plan sucks and below is an example of one proponent of said plan, if you can call it that, refusing to stand plainly behind that plan. The reality is we are stuck with Biden. You may not like it, but it is the reality. The sooner we end this terrible collective yapping about a replacement the sooner we can focus on what is important, which is beating Donald Trump.
So much misinformation is swirling around this. Whoever is nominated at the convention will get on the ballot. The only exception is Ohio. The deadline for Ohio is August 7th. So we need to have a likely candidate by then, or write off Ohio.
The other misinformation I hear is Biden's money can only be used for Biden. Also untrue, it can be moved to a super pac.
It isn't misinformation to say that all of these candidates would have ballot issues. They will and you've acknowledged as much in your reply.
It isn't misinformation to say these candidates cannot inherit the Biden campaign money. It would be misinformation to say they can because the FEC rules prevent any direct transfer. We have no idea what would happen to the Biden money. You are welcome to speculate that it would be sent to a superpac for your fantasy candidate. It could just as easily be used to pay any existing debts then returned to donors or sent to the DNC.
So I'm going to ask you again because you didn't answer the first time, your plan is to replace Biden with someone who may not be interested in running, who can't get on the ballot in all states, has no money, has no campaign infrastructure, who has limited name recognition, and who has not been vetted on the level Biden has? I'm guessing you won't answer.
Ignore my answer if you want. My answer is the same
You haven't offered an answer. If you think your plan is so great why not own it?
Biden is on track to win. he has stated for sure that he is running.
enough with the defeatism, nobody wants Biden to drop out more than trump
Actually the stakes for the future of our democracy was in 2016 even most of us weren't aware of it at the time, and Hillary Clinton was the one who blew it. Since then we've been in a war to regain what is being taken away, and you've been tricked into believing that replacing a successful general four months before our most important battle with an unknown entity is somehow a smart move, and that Gavin Newsom and all those governors who met with Biden yesterday are wrong.
The press wants us talking about this because they don't care if Trump wins, they just want a horse race and sell clicks. The NYT in particular have a beef with Biden and want to destroy him because he doesn't give preference to traditional print media, which is why we ended up with this https://i.redd.it/bac3hhvjhcad1.jpeg
But yes, this is a critical election and one where any conversation about our candidate choice should have been last year at the earliest. We had a primary and over 3700 delegates are slated to go to president Joe Biden. Nobody who claiming we could switch can explain to me how that is anything but a desperate gamble that almost certainly will fail much how they would convince Biden of the same. So this is all a waste of time and the conversation we should be having is how do we get Biden elected against Trump again? If people put half as much energy into doing that as they do tearing Biden down then we would have this election in the bag.
And just to make this even more crystal clear, if somehow Biden is forced out of the nomination he clearly won I am still putting Biden down on my ballot even if I have to write it in, and I'm not the only one. I know exactly how critical this election is and yet if we let our elites pick our leaders for us after the fact then we've already lost our democracy anyway and it isn't coming back.
I haven’t been tricked. Stop talking down to people
Sure, your organic opinion just happened to spring up exactly one week ago when eight days ago nobody including you was discussing replacing Biden. Also hypocrisy much? Every explanation of why we need to replace Biden I've heard so far amounts to believing a segment of the voter base is terminally stupid and that only by pandering to them by bringing in a younger candidate can we win the election, while also believing that 100% of Biden voters are transferable to whatever empty suit you replace Biden with.
Yes. I did form that opinion originally, as I watched the train wreck of a debate. Would you like to see my group texts that night?
Look at my post history at my post the next morning.
Stop talking down to people.
I haven't heard a good argument for Biden not running
He can't win.
That is neither good nor an argument
He was too old in 2020 and he won. No one loves having an 81 year old candidate but it's what we got.
The doom and gloom is exactly what the far right wants right now. Don't let them have it. You don't have to be excited about Biden.
Be excited about saving democracy.
Absolutely it is. Nobody else will have the time or resources to put together a brand new campaign in time. If the DNC switches candidates, not only does that hurt all of the voters who voted for Biden in the primaries by throwing away said votes, it also hands the election to Trump. At least with Biden it will be close. For America’s sake and for democracy’s sake we must stand with Biden.
In like 2002 Paul wellstone a liberal on par with Bernie and AOC was running for re-election to the us senate in Minnesota. A few months before Election Day he died in a small plane crash. The democrats replaced him with Walter Mondale, scion on Minnesota democrats, and he lost to the Republican. In Minnesota which has not voted for a Republican for president in over 50 years in a campaign that Mondale by all accounts was running away with.
Before it was "No one is paying attention yet therefore the polls showing Biden losing mean very little". Now it's "It's too late and people won't have time to warm up to another candidate". Biden WILL lose in November barring a random change that no one can predict and that's not worth banking on. That is handing Trump the election. Any shooters chance we can get with another candidate, who has plenty of time because we have the memory of goldfish and haven't even had a convention yet, is better than the likelihood for Biden currently. That's the math and logic on this.
Nobody else will have the time or resources to put together a brand new campaign in time
Not true. Until relatively recently candidates were selected at the convention. "We don't have time" is also a different argument from "he deserves our support because he supported us"
Then how do they get funding? Biden's campaign $$ cannot be transferred. How do you get them on the ballot in all 50 states? Here in OH we had a massive fight just to get the presumptive nominee on the ballot.
According to Gross, if both Biden and Harris either drop out of the contest or don't become their party's nominee, they could opt to designate the campaign funds for a super PAC or the party itself.
The cope in the comments is insane.
They held a panel discussion among US experts in German TV yesterday. EVERYONE said that it's over for Biden and if he stays in the race, we [Germans] must prepare for Trump. Foreign media are all saying that Biden is cooked.
Republicans and heritage foundation are trying to keep Biden in the race and are threatening lawsuits if we replace him. They know what will make us lose.
Outside of Biden fanclubs there is no discussion about this. It is obvious and clear. Everybody knows it.
Dem internal polling is a clear as can be. Biden will lose in an absolute landslide, whereas Buttigieg and Whitmer will win relatively comfortably. People never voted for Biden - they always voted against Trump.
Biden isn't only an absolutely insane candidate to mount now - he's never been a good candidate ever.
He would've lost in 2020 if it weren't about Covid. Pull your heads out of the sand. Jesus.
And it wasn't just "one bad debate" - it is dementia. Dude won't last until November, let alone 4 more years. How insane do you have to be to seriously suggest this man is a good candidate? I always thought we were supposed to NOT be a personality cult like the Trumpers.
Maybe the Germans should focus on keeping their own brand of fascism at bay IJS. France appears to have pulled it out -- for now. But your neighbors are becoming as equally as unhinged as we are across the pond. I think your media has it wrong. He literally had one bad day. The world isn't ending! He also immediately bounced back right after the debate but no one seems to care about that. All anyone can talk about is the poor first half and nothing else.
Trump is inevitable at this point. We just have to figure out how to survive him somehow.
there is a very clear way for us to win. People have been upset from the get go that this is a choice between two unpopular geriatrics. If the dems pick an energetic genxer this becomes a change election that invigorates people to vote.
We are against one of the most unpopular candidate ever, we just need to replace our even less popular candidate
but it's clear he's no longer capable to do the hardest job in the world, his time has passed.
Is/has it though?
Any person that truly loves and cares for Biden would want him to step aside. I dearly love him but he is obviously too impaired to continue.
Why does this feel like Bernie Bros all over again?
Is it a good reason? No. Biden obviously shouldnt run, ive said that years ago.
Is it he best reason? Probably, especially if Biden refuses to step down
Apart from everything else, the Republicans are already trying to keep Biden off the ballot in Ohio on a technicality. I guarantee they would do worse if the party switched candidates.
Both sides played the same game
Both sides are the same is Russian propaganda designed to discourage Americans from voting
That's not what I said though
Sure, it is exactly what you said.
You do understand how to compare two sentences side by side, right? It might be what is going through your head, but you can quite literally look at my words and see that they are not the same as your words.
??
You said:
Both sides played the same game
I said:
Both sides are the same . . .
Exactly. Im talking about them both doing one thing that's the same, trying to keep the other candidate of the ballot. You're saying I said both are the same, which implies all the way around. They are boadly different, but in this this situation, they both played the same game.
Bottom line, I didn't say what you said I did. Not literally or figuratively.
Let's see.
The Democrats are not using vaguely criminal shenanigans to keep Trump, a vmcomvicted felon and sel admitted wanna be dictator, off the ballot. Those descriptions ofvTrump are not opinions, they are factual.
Republicans have no factual objections to Biden other than that hes a Democrat. They not only tried to overturn his legitimate election, they are tryi g to kerp him off the ballot, for example, in Ohio, because their "deadline" is before the Democratic convention.
Both parties are mot anywhere near the same.
First of all, judging by your words, you've either had too many beers or you're having a stroke and should call an ambulance instead of posting on reddit.
On the chance it's just the alcohol, months before he was convicted, the democrats tried having him removed from multiple states' ballots.
But that's not how this all started, is it? It all started because I said they played the same game. You twisted it into whatever happened in your mind and spit out a different sentence, albeit with a couple of the same words. No matter what kind of bullshit you try to troll me into, you took my initial words and twisted them. Anything after me saying that's not what I said is a mute point.
As far as tonight goes, I hope you're healthy and safe. If you don't feel good, call 911. Happy 4th
Let's see.
The Democrats are not using vaguely criminal shenanigans to keep Trump, a vmcomvicted felon and sel admitted wanna be dictator, off the ballot. Those descriptions ofvTrump are not opinions, they are factual.
Republicans have no factual objections to Biden other than that hes a Democrat. They not only tried to overturn his legitimate election, they are tryi g to kerp him off the ballot, for example, in Ohio, because their "deadline" is before the Democratic convention.
Both parties are mot anywhere near the same.
No, thats absurd
No it’s not enough.
There are only so many options and Biden is the decider.
Option one: Kamala Harris
This is the most logical but like any other could split the party.
Option two: open convention
This could get ugly but would gin up excitement and has the greatest chance of splitting the party...if it's not Harris there are going to be some pissed off black women.
The best option is that Biden show us that this was just a bad night and not his mental health...but that ain't happening and its been over a week.
Yep.
It’s an empty platitude.
You support a candidate if they are closest to the policy positions you want and they have the best chances of winning.
If the primary voters wanted him out, there was Dean Phillips. The ball is now in his court if he wants to pursue a replacement in the name of general election appeal.
I have no clue how capable he is and I don't think it's productive to speculate about it. That doesn't matter anyway, if he is unfit for office this wouldn't even be in question because then he should already be resigning and Kamala Harris should be president. The fact that he's still in there and things aren't falling apart means this kind of speculation is probably hysterical.
For my part, I don't get a say whether he steps out or not. At this point my best bet is to shut up about it and just wait to see what happens. I'll support him either way, so there's no point me keeping the focus on the "should Biden be replaced?" news story rather than say, the grand jury relevations coming out of Florida. Why offer right wing agitators the distraction they want for free?
Here's the only reason I need to vote for Joe Biden: I know that if I vote for Joe Biden, that 4 years from now, I'm going to get to vote again.
I don't have a very strong belief that that will be the case if Trump is president. Or, I don't think my vote will matter, 4 years from now, which is effectively the same thing.
I don't need to know anything else about this election. Either you love America or you're willing to say, "You know what? This America thing has been fun. Let's try Fascism now."
And make no mistake. There are a lot of people with the means to leave this country if Trump is elected a lot of them are going to leave. I've already had one family member leave for the Netherlands because of Trump's first election. My dad is planning on going to New Zealand. My wife and I are making plans for Costa Rica. We've been working with our financial advisor to move money out of the country.
America is going to take a big financial and brain drain when Trump gets elected.
Yes, the stakes could not be higher. Isn’t it frustrating Joe is running instead of making way for someone who can win?
So, the person who would likely take over if he bows out is VP Harris. So....if he bows out now or in February, nothing changes. They have nearly the same odds.
I highly recommend studying the 13 keys to the White House. They have correctly predicted every election since 1860. It’s based on the theory that the candidates do not matter elections are primarily a vote in favor or against the party holding the White House. There is only 1 key about the traits of the candidates that being incumbent party candidate is charismatic, inspirational or a war hero Biden is clearly none of those do we lose that. The only key about the challenge party is the challenging party candidate uncharismatic. To quote Allen Lichtman who help create the system and is the only person who predicted both the 2016 and 2020 election correctly. “Trump is a great showmen but his showmenship only appeals to a fraction of the electorate he doesn’t have the overwhelming charisma of FDR or Ronald Reagan.” Biden has so far only lost 2 keys those being midterm mandate key and incumbent charisma key. there are 4 keys that haven’t been called yet 2 lean in bidens favor and two don’t those 2 that don’t being the foreign policy/foreign military success and failure key. If we replace Biden we lose the incumbent party candidate is a sitting president key and the inner party struggle key. Since if we replaced Biden there would be terrible inner party struggle so we would lose 4 keys with both the foreign policy keys leaning against Biden. Unless there a permanent cease fire which would be a miracle but highly unlikely. so if Biden doesn’t run we would lose 6 keys which is the number you need to lose the election. I don’t like Biden at all but I trust the 13 keys theory. It is always correct. The only other option that would not result in democrats losing is the less preferable Plan B. if Biden decides not to run he doesn’t just withdraw from running he resigns making for the “good of the country” making Kamala Harris president. That would save both the inner party struggle key and the incumbency key. We can’t go with Newsom or Whitmer as much as I wish we could it would be political suicide. Based on the keys to win we either go with option A which is the safer one stick with Biden or option B Biden resigns making Kamala president. Those are the only two viable choices this late.
What would Liz Warren say?
Duh. In fact, duh-uh. He's doing a great job. Let. Him. Cook.
I’ve read some things on the forum like Biden was a great President and he will continue to be. For me, statements like these are very shortsighted.
It’s time for Kamala Harris.
Harris will galvanize the Democratic Party. A strong VP paired with Harris will absolutely crush Trump.
Who better than Kamala Harris to bring the turnout from blacks and women for the Democratic Party?
Besides, it’s not just about winning the election even if Biden could manage to do it. People need to be thinking about the next 4 years, especially when the safety of America is an urgent priority now.
People with eyes, ears, and a brain understand that Biden is not fit for the job.
Dems who argue otherwise are just blinded by partisanship. Their egos and emotions are over-riding any common sense they might normally have.
There is no good argument for staying with Biden. Why?
He’s obviously going downhill. He’s not going to get better. How do you think he’s going to look and sound in a year? How about in 2 years? 3? 4?? C’mon.
It’s so absurd to pretend that Biden just had a sore throat and one bad night.
It’s like eating sh*t and trying to convince yourself and everyone else that it’s delicious. Have some self-respect.
As to the argument that it will cause infighting, that simply won’t happen.
Once Joe Biden announces he is urging all Dems to get behind a candidate who has character, integrity, and is younger and smarter than Trump, every Democrat with a brain will rally to support that candidate.
Eventually every blind partisan for Biden will quickly change their tune and admit they’re glad they got this rare historic opportunity because it’s going to happen. Watch and see!
Listen folks, it’s rare to be gifted a golden opportunity like this to reboot the Democratic Party.
What is clear is that Biden has a chance to put the party first and get behind the best candidate to bring home the win.
I believe Biden will step aside within the next 10 days or sooner, especially if the former President Obama and other party leaders encourage him to do so.
Pay absolutely zero attention to the partisan politicians who are claiming Biden is “in it to win it.”
They are the same politicians who lied to you that Biden is sharp as a razor, full of energy, and engaged in every detail of every high-stakes meeting.
Blind partisans should wake up, stop living in denial and welcome this opportunity to save the election.
Harris would/will lose.
The right has built up so many lies and conspiracies about her before and leading up to the 2020 election, and mostly back burnered them because she has been almost non-existent in this administration. The right hasn't gone after her like they did before, because she's so inconsequential right now it makes no sense to.
But you can guarantee they'll dust off that playbook if it happened. Hell, part of their argument right now is that the left is planning to have Biden step down right after the election so she could win, or that Biden will step down in just over 2 years after the election so she can try to win the max amount of time.
It's nonsense, but to think she doesn't have her own baggage that could easily tank her bid at this point is just playing with fire. We know Joe's issue, we don't know what'll stick for Harris.
No one is saying Biden isn't old. But the people he brought around him, the admin actually running the government, have been superb. That is what people are voting for that vote Biden, and that slate of people are really the ones affecting change (recent Supreme Court coup aside).
Completely disagree. To explain why would mean repeating what I have already said and to blind Dem partisans it’s the same as talking to cult MAGAs - logic is out the window.
To vote for an impaired old man who is declining before our eyes and will only be even more weak and feeble going forward is absurd.
When Kamala gets nominated, (which I believe she will) whether some DEM blind partisans like it or not, those same critics (you included) will jump at the opportunity to enthusiastically support her.
Human nature being what it is, they (you included) will probably even claim that you were on board all along!
Watch it happen! I expect Biden to throw his full support behind her within the next 10 days.
For sure, bookmark this conversation and get back to me to show me if I’m wrong.
RemindMe! - 10 days
Because yes, if he decides to step down I'll absolutely throw my support behind whoever is named, because Biden doesn't matter in this. Not at this point in the game. The time to seriously have this conversation was a year ago, and at that time the numbers were flipped. Like electorate is fickle and capricious, and thinking anyone really has significant control over that is delusional.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals"
I'll admit if Biden does step aside (highly doubtful bae some actual medical reason) and Kamala runs, I'll throw my full throated support behind her and move forward. Because what matters is winning at this point. 2016 caused more damage than I think most realize, and it's going to take a decade or more to really fix and reinforce institutions against it in the future. Not just the admin state, but the electoral system. 2016 was an infection point, an intro paragraph to a full chapter about either the strengthening and expansion of democracy, or the end in the US.
You work with what you got. I'm not a supermodel, so I'm not going to pretend I have a chance in a beauty contest.
And if we want real change, don't look to a presidential election for it. That is a bulwark to prevent fascism, but not the key to advancing democracy. Local elections, electoral reform with rank-choice, finance reform, those are the real levers.
Agree. Yes I expect this to happen within 10 days. I actually see it as a reason to celebrate another chance to win the election and get a healthy reputable candidate in office.
As for why this took so long? Who knows? Does it really matter at this point?
I’ll take a guess anyway. It happens because of politics and the dynamics of being an insider. What does that mean exactly? It means that you and I are outsiders and 2020 vision is always perfect.
However, if you are an insider and you would suggest telling the truth , then imagine the reaction you might get if you went to Biden‘s administration and let them know that you think Biden has some serious problems and might be a bad choice.
Any reasonable person would conclude that it might cost them their job. Denial is a powerful thing and people don’t like to hear the truth.
The other reason is that Democratic strategists don’t deserve the credit that too many people give them.
Maybe they’re just stupid and they did not anticipate that things could blow up this way.
If Biden is going to step down then there's probably a ton of negotiations going on among the party brass to get everyone aligned immediately on an agreed-upon replacement before the nomination. In the mean time it would serve their interests to quell arguing and posturing by the ambitious who might bring out their knives looking for the nomination. This is also why I expect that if he steps down it'll likely be Harris in his stead.
Agree 100%
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Loyalty is admirable, but the stakes here are literally the future of Democracy. I get Newsom can't be seen pushing Biden out because that would ruin his chances, but regardless this just seems like a piss poor argument for keeping Biden on the ticket.
I think Biden did a good job, but it's clear he's no longer capable to do the hardest job in the world, his time has passed. It is time to have the American people's back.
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