Hey All! I'm looking to do a point-to-point hike this June in the Adirondacks, and I'm looking for a good shuttle from the Marble Mountain TH (near Whiteface) to the Seward Mountain Trailhead some time around June 16th/17th. I'll be leaving my car at Marble and walking back to it. If anyone knows of a shuttle service that can do this, or if there's a reliable way to just call a taxi service from Marble/Wilmington, please let me know!
Are you travelling to the US from the UK or abroad? You don't seem to have a lot of US fastpacking or forest experience (which is totally fine! We just might be able to help you prepare better here if we know your background.)
Your car won't get towed at any trailhead that accesses any of this stuff. People leave their cars there for weeks. Be informed though about the road conditions. It's not uncommon to drive for a pretty long time on a dirt road, which can sometimes be pretty rough, before arriving at the TH.
You have to look for routes in National Forests/Wilderness, not National Parks. Routes in National Parks and some Wilderness areas will have required permits and designated campsites because they're so popular. I'm not a native, but I backpack guided in CO for three years. Some suggestions:
The Maroon Bells. Parking requires some logistics because it's busy, but you can put together some of the best routes in the world out there! Four Pass Loop is the big one, but there are more trails out there than that.
The Collegiates and the surrounding area is another. Nowhere is the Buena Vista/Leadville area requires a permit I don't think.
The Weminuche Wilderness also doesn't require any permits.
The Uncompaghre Wilderness is home to among my favorite backpacking trips I've ever taken. No permit needed.
The Colorado Trail/Continental Divide Trail is 500 miles of permit-less trail straight through the best parts of CO.
My personal advice based on what has worked for me and what I've learned about training for an ultra is that there are much better free plans out there, and this plan will likely leave you unprepared to handle the stress of a 50 mile ultra (depending on a lot of factors, obviously). I don't know which free plans are best necessarily, but those on the Relentless Forward Commotion site are, I think, pretty popular. There are also many good books with much better training plans.
Why do I think this will leave you undertrained? Your total weekly volume is really low, peaking at around 40 miles per week, which is on the low end of doable (Obligatory Science of Ultra Podcast Link: https://www.scienceofultra.com/podcasts/140 )
But also the weekly mileage is weirdly distributed, and you do almost no running for the first three days of every week. If you're going out for 3 miles, why not bump it up to 7 or 8? Ideally, I think you would probably be running about 6 days a week, and most of those runs would be about an hour or longer.
And the weekend runs. Typically, most plans will have you do two long runs on the weekend to help you prepare to run on tired legs: a very long run on Saturday of about 15-32 miles, and a shorter long run on Sunday of around 10-15 miles. This plan doesn't have a single meaningful double, and I'd be afraid of that.
Frankly, this plan looks kind of light for even preparing for a marathon. I find that I need pretty high volume to feel good at ultra distances, so for me I wouldn't use this plan. You may be different, in that you have less time to train, are more injury prone, or are better at adapting than I am, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I'm on my last week of a taper, and I've always felt like the carb loading before a race just leaves me feeling terrible. I'm going to try this out, thank you!
I used this for one summer and was pretty disappointed overall. The setup was finicky and it sagged something awful in rain. It's really light though, and I was able to do a 3-day trip with two people using this as our shelter (in good weather). I got rid of it, and don't generally recommend it. Tarp and bivy would be superior in so many ways.
My day off is Monday. Tuesday and Thursday are 8-11 miles with strides or a structured workout, Wednesday and Friday are easy 5-7 milers, Saturday is long run of between 15 and 32, Sunday is a double long run of 10-15.
I also work 40 hours, but I am within run commuting distance of home and work 3 days in the office M-W. So T and W I take public transport to work and run home.
EDIT: Usually strength training happens on Wed/Sun, but I get notoriously bored in the gym, so this is when I take my medicine and I'm not always good about taking my medicine. I cross train by going rock climbing 1-2x/week on days off or light days.
My absolute favorite fastpacking food.
It's easy to make your own gels and there are lots of good recipes online using maltodextrin, honey, maple syrup, and all sorts of other ingredients, which you can put in a reusable gel flask.
I've never found the hassle of doing so to be all that worth it frankly, but it's definitely cheaper and some people do find it to be worth it! If I'm worried about cost, I'll go for Snickers bars or gummy worms.
It's usually suggested that yes, training with nutrition is important and does help you prepare for race day. You need to train your system's ability to take in calories.
I do gels for any run over 2 hours, as suggested by my coach, etc. The vast majority of my long training runs are around 2-3 hours, so 3-6 gels. I search for deals online and buy in bulk, and have a tub of gels and electrolyte mixes in my pantry. Now that I'm off Spring Energy, things are less expensive, but not as tasty. I don't find it particularly hard on my bank account during regular training weeks.
On longer runs (20+ trail miles), I still only bring around 6 or so gels, then a smattering of real food. These kinds of runs usually appear at the end of my training block, and 2x/week sometimes, and for about 2-4 weeks. All my gels and electrolyte mixes do start to get depleted fast during that time! This is when I usually start worrying more about how much dang money my hobby costs me...
...but then I think of what skiers and bikers spend, and I worry less.
I commute out to VC Park for long runs sometimes, and I'd kill to have it in my backyard as someone who likes to get elevation on my runs! Central Park is in my backyard and I run there 4-6 times every week. Sometimes it's boring to do the big loop over and over again, but when it gets boring I pick a new path or trail, or run the opposite direction. There's lots of opportunity to do that in VC.
My last *week* of a long training block usually feels pretty gnarly. Dead legs, motivation issues, thoughts of giving it all up and becoming a competitive eater. I've heard the same from other people.
The taper is supposed to give you a chance to recover from the training block and absorb the stimulus. So it makes sense that the end of a training block might have you feeling pretty worked.
And thanks! I think I just got a response from them. Should be good to go!
Maybe. I’m in the debating phase. If I think it’s doable, then yes.
Welcome! Most fastpackers use an app called Lighterpacks to keep track of their gear (because grams and ounces count when you're running with your backpacking gear and this app is like a database of what you have and what it weighs). You can check out some of the lighterpacks lists on this site for a sense of what people carry.
Fastpacking is a spectrum of heavier but safer and lighter but less room for error (although to a typical backpacker, everything we do is crazy and unsafe). Grayson Cobb, the guy with the 10L vest, is definitely really far on the less/no room for error side of things, and trying deliberately to push the boundaries of what's possible. He attempted the AT speed record and hurt himself, I think. Still, there's good lessons in his packing list.
For advice, I'd say try stuff out for as little money as possible at first. Fastpacking can be an amazing experience, but some people find that it's a lot of effort for limited reward (not me, I love it). Looking at the Camelback online, you should be able to get out and try fastpacking with that, as long as you can fit stuff into it.
My own personal fastpacking gear is as light and minimal as possible. In general:
Superlight quilt (12-18 oz), pad (5-7oz)
Tarp (5-10 oz), bivy (4-6oz)
Phone/charger, GPS tracker thing (7-10oz)
Med kit (1-2 oz), toiletries (1 oz)
Headlamp (2-6 oz)
Extra socks (2-4 oz)
Rain jacket (4-10 oz), warm layer (4-8 oz), maybe gloves/hat
Water bottles/filter like the Katadyn BeFree (2.5 oz each)
All food is no-cook and high calorie/oz ratio, so trail mix, dried fruit, energy bars, peanut butter pretzels, etc.
All of it goes in a backpack (5-12 oz)
There's a million threads giving advice on particulars for all the gear above. I won't go into it here. One of the coolest things about fastpacking is there's still room for innovation, creativity, and embracing discomfort over comfort. You do you, as long as you make it back in one piece.
Off you go. Do a trail you know pretty well first, then expand into bigger, harder adventures.
I have that bag. I rock it on all my fastpacking trips and it's a gem. I'm doing most of my trips around New England, and it handles it all quite well.
I am both a fastpacker and a run commuter (2-3 days/week). I find that my stride is a little different when running with a pack, especially when on the trails, as a result of trying to reduce bounce I guess? I feel like I take slightly longer strides and work harder to make sure my head stays level. Running while fastpacking for me is more of the ultra shuffle than a true run.
A 15+ lb pack will probably just always bounce. You might not be able to do this, but I store a lot of stuff in my office or at a gym nearby so I'm not carrying so much stuff on the run itself. Usually just my work clothes (5lbs at most). I leave my computer at work, keep my work shoes under my desk, etc. Again, your situation might be different.
This pack never gets recommended, but it's cheap and I love it for run commuting -- it's become my do-everything back around the city: Ultimate Direction Blazek 18. It has a zipper on the bottom to expand/contract between 18 and 10 liters. When compressed, it has way less bounce. I've always found especially the BD pack to have too much bounce for me. For fastpacking, you need to prioritize lightweight, and frankly deal with a little bit of bounce. My favorite is the Palante Joey so far, but I've been experimenting with sewing my own designs. I've heard good things about the XA, but never used it.
Edit to add: the packing key to reducing bounce in my experience is making sure your pack is the proper size and cinched. the F. down. No space in there for things to move around is really helpful. Takes a lot of experimenting and I, like you, have gone through a whole bunch of bags before finding the one I like.
Disclaimer first:
You're going to have to deal with the remoteness of the location, the heat (the Southwest in July? Yellowstone?), and what seems like a lack of experience in the use of the gear necessary to do this safely that comes with experience at shorter distances. Any one of those things would be a significant complicating factor. Most people use the race format to do ultras because they provide a level of safety and support that makes attempting significant distances like this more palatable. Generally, this is probably a bad idea, but you know yourself and your limits better than any of us, so here's my advice to prepare:
Krissy Moehl's "Running Your First Ultra" is a good book to start with. 15 months to train for a 100+ miler is probably doable, but you're entering into distances where training becomes really hard (we're talking 40-50+ miles per week of running every week for the next 15 months), and is in no way a guarantee of success.
Frankly, with the amount of gear you need to support a 122-mile hike/run in a remote location, you should look into fastpacking gear (lightweight backpacks with 25-30 liter capacity, check out the Palante Joey). You need a helluva lot more than a few bars. You need like 200-250 calories/hour of nutrient-dense food. You definitely should resupply at mile 60 and eat a big ol' burger to avoid carrying like 15lbs of stuff.
Don't carry a water bladder. That's just tons of extra weight, especially since you'll be near a river the whole time. Carry something like the Katadyn BeFree bottles. Again, fastpacking gear is helpful in this context.
Adjust your time goals. A sub-24 100 miler is a significant ultramarathon goal, generally reserved for pretty fast and experienced ultramarathoners at the distance. Frankly, that's not you. It won't be you in 15 months either, most likely. I'd suggest a goal of 48+ hours here, and bring stuff for sleeping -- a lightweight tarp and sleeping bag would be recommended. A space blanket is meh. If I were doing this, I'd plan on a real sleep of at least an hour at some point. That could be at the resupply point.
Frankly I have no idea what goruck events are all about. Going 80 miles with a 60lb pack over a day and a half indicates ultramarathon-level strength, just based on numbers.
Happy to answer any other questions. Dashing this off kind of quick.
I have two pairs of the Gore R5 2in1 shorts and like them a lot.
Janji Run All Day shirts for hot and humid has worked for me.
Lived in KC for one year for work in River Market. I don't think I'd move back now that I'm on the East Coast, but I really liked it, having moved from Indiana. If I moved back it would be because I want to afford a home, I like that there are good running and bike training options, and a healthy triathlon training community (I ran/biked around the airport loop like 1,000 times in that year), and the River Market area is a really nice, walkable community with relatively cheap housing.
Downtown is nice, the food is good, the weather is pretty spot on, and it's a day drive to both Arkansas and Colorado for my type of vacation (climbing and backpacking).
I'd probably rather live in KC than Minneapolis, but I'm not a big midwest person (except boy do I miss the cost of living there). They both have one big flaw for me: they're in the midwest. One is warmer and closer to the recreation that I care about.
While the East Coast doesn't have the kind of huge, public Forests, Wilderness Areas, and Parks that the West has, it's wrong to say it doesn't have good public land access. I'd argue that it has just as good of access, but access of a different kind (smaller preserves, but they're everywhere). There are a ton of state parks and forests, and nearly every town in New England has its own local nature preserve, or is close to one. Then, of course, there's the Appalachian Trail.
I've lived in Colorado, Washington, and Wyoming, and when I moved to Connecticut I was surprised by just how abundant, accessible, and beautiful the five nature preserves surrounding my town were. One of them was across the street from me, and had access to 20 miles of gorgeous trail. At least, that's been my experience of the Northeast/New England region. It's extremely nature-lover friendly. Different than the West, but probably better for your average person that wants to go on a short hike 3 times/week.
The key word is "safely," which means without a high risk of injury. So, whatever you can do comfortably now, start there. Then the rule of thumb is to build about 10% volume every week. Every 3-4 weeks, reduce volume by 20-30% to give yourself a break, then continue the build.
25-30mpw (miles per week) on a 5 day/week schedule is a relatively good place to start if you don't quite know where you stand (probably). Again, the books I recommended have great advice here.
It might look like:
30 mpw, 35 mpw, 38 mpw, Rest Week 30 mpw, 40 mpw, 44 mpw, etc.
If you experience any persistent pain in your joints or tendons, immediately give yourself a rest week no matter what, or take a few days off. You can also throw in some weeks where you don't build, but maintain the same mileage for a week or two.
Don't put too many miles in your weekly long run (stick to about 20-25% of your total mileage in your long run), and run back-to-back long runs every couple of weeks (15 miles on Saturday, 10 on Sunday for instance), or every weekend if you can handle it. The long run is important, but not necessarily more important than consistent volume over time.
Anybody who is experienced in this will tell you that the key is to avoid injury, as injury means time where you can't train. It's better to miss some days of training or take a few more weeks to get to 50mpw than it is to develop tendonitis or sprain your ankle because you pushed too hard. Strength training (squats, deadlifts, core, etc) and building mileage smartly are the key to avoiding injury, generally. When in doubt, choose the conservative path, as it is the least likely to lead to injury.
Remember that all of this is advice based on the average person, and that might not be you. You might have to take it more conservative. You might be able to push harder. You might need a particular kind of shoe to avoid rolling your ankle every week, or need to consume more sodium to avoid bonking on mile 34. You won't know until you've gained a lot more experience, so start conservative and evaluate yourself honestly, and then stay conservative anyway.
- I've never heard of a "drop set" hill repeat -- I've always thought of drop set as a bodybuilding term. Anyway I'd just think of it as hill repeats. There's another website that uses this term: coachweb.com (which I've never heard of before). They define it like this:
“This is a great workout for practicing your pacing,” says Davis. “To get the best out of ourselves in the shorter reps at the end, we have to control the effort in the longer reps. We are slightly fatigued going into the shorter reps so we are practicing running on tired legs. This improves our resistance to fatigue and will come in handy for longer races.”
Warm-up: 10-15min, easy pace
Workout Block 1: Do 5-10 reps, depending on your experience, of the following:
- Run uphill for 60sec at 70%-80% effort
- Recover for 60-90sec while jogging back downhill
Workout Block 2: Do 5-10 reps, depending on your experience, of the following:
- Run uphill for 30sec at 80%-90% effort
- Recover for 45-60sec while jogging back downhill
Warm-down: 10-15min, easy pace
So, hill repeats, but you decrease the length/intensity as you go.
Rolling 500s, again, I've never heard of and doesn't seem to exist online in many places, but somebody described them as running 500meters then jogging 500 meters (that's an interval in my lingo).
600s into 200s must be "Run 600 meters then jog 600 meters then repeat"?
9km tempo 2.5km: This one is straightforward to me. Run 9kms, with 2.5kms at your tempo pace within that workout.
I think there are better plans out there. But I hope this helps!
Oh cool! Welcome to the club. You live in a premier spot for it, and I've definitely felt that weird "I'm leaving my car in the woods for seven days," feeling sometimes. But it goes away in time! Any US Forest Service Trailhead is going to be A-Okay to leave your car at during a backpacking trip.
If I were you, I'd start researching routes in those areas I mentioned, and areas that others have mentioned. AllTrails and Hiking Project are good resources. When you find some routes that look good, you can always type, for example, "Maroon Bells Four Pass Loop Overnight Permit" into Google, and it will answer your questions.
Most camping in Forests and wilderness is just like right to roam -- walk around until you find a cool spot, and pitch your tent there (within reason! Generally you should camp 200 feet away from trails and water).
Needing permits and worrying about parking or having your car messed with is not the norm. If you do the Collegiate Peaks loop as others have suggested, you'll be golden, and find easy enough parking. Just park at a trailhead and bring your keys with you. The car should be fine.
Where to go fastpacking in Colorado
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