www.reddit.com/live/1bsso361afr0r
/r/WorldNews Live Thread for Israel-Hamas War (Thread #56)
Israel/PalestineI honestly don’t understand how even the most ardent Pro Pal (but not outwardly Pro Hamas) supporters don’t have issue with Hamas holding up a deal because they want to hand pick the murderers that get released
The true believers are so far gone that any rational thought or critical thinking was out the window long ago
I see them refer to the prisoners in Israel as hostages. You reckon they actually believe there are a bunch of innocent kids in there or is it just smear? It's tiring to see it brought up whenever Kfir's name is mentioned.
Most supporters of the Palestinian cause earnestly want Israel to be destroyed, either because of anti-Americanism, and Israel's close ties to that country, or because they sympathise with Islamo-fascism. They know what 'from the river to the sea' means, they are not saying it on accident. The freeing of terrorists is the point.
I think the world just saw that grandpa Joe isn't going to have four more years, and Hamas is starting to consider what November 6th looks like when Trump wins. So they're panicking and trying to find a solution that lets them save some face.
they are fucked regardless of whether it's biden or trump, but it looks like it's trump, and trump is gonna make it rain
To shreds, you say?
News cycle is anyways going to move to us elections soon which means they are gonna have to live under the tunnels a lot longer either way.
Insallah.
Israeli official: Hamas’s latest ceasefire proposal gives room to move forward toward deal
A senior Israeli official says the updated hostage deal proposal Hamas submitted earlier today is positive enough to allow for the negotiations to move forward, after several weeks of deadlock since the terror group submitted its last response to the Israeli proposal.
The updated Hamas offer brings the sides closer to a resolution regarding Clauses 8 and 14 of the Israeli proposal submitted on May 27, the senior Israeli official says.
Clause 8 of the hostage-truce deal concerns the negotiations between Israel and Hamas that would be held during the six-week phase one of the ceasefire deal. Clause 14 deals with the transition between stage one and stage two of the deal.
Israel has sought to keep the wording in these two clauses vague enough to allow it to resume fighting against Hamas in Gaza if it chooses, while Hamas has sought to ensure that Israel will not be able to resume fighting once the sides agree to the initial six-week phase one of the ceasefire deal.
The senior Israeli official clarifies that there are still significant gaps to bridge before an agreement can be reached, despite Hamas’s relatively positive response.
The Israeli government must decide in the coming days whether to enter a new round of more detailed negotiations with the Qatari, Egyptian and American mediators.
If the government authorizes the Mossad-led negotiating team to enter such talks, the sides will still likely need another several weeks before a deal can be reached, Axios reports, citing another unnamed senior Israeli official.
I wonder what’s changed with Hamas regarding the deal? Not that I have too much hope.
Trump is going to win. He hates Jews but he hates Muslims more.
Trump hates Jews? He is working close with/friends with many and Ivanka is Jewish. May I ask when he has shown signs of this? I've only heard the exact opposite claim before. :p
Biden is going to lose the election and it became patently obvious to everyone. Trump back in power = Israel being let loose to finish the job.
I’ve become numb to these proposals but I still can’t help get a little hope every time.
I’m guessing the main thing that changed was Hamas’ demand of an absolute agreement on the end of war before the release of any hostages. Otherwise Israel would’ve shut this proposal down in an instant if they were still insisting on that.
Holy hell this specific subreddit is disgustingly one sided in its views and statements on how it thinks the world is vs how the world ACTUALLY is.
Well then explain it to everyone if you are so smart
I have, read my other comments. And it's not about being smart it's just about calling out both sides for being evil and that should be pretty clear honestly.
Being one-sided is disgusting, huh? You won't like most subreddits then.
People who claim to know how the world “ACTUALLY” is are often always just spouting rhetoric to feel morally superior to the point of self arousal rather than have anything that backs it up. Please elaborate on how the world actually works and please back it up with some evidence with a variety of sources to account for bias . We will fucking wait.
Humanity is evil and that's basically all there is to it, but its pretty clear the majority of people here are blind to that fact so they just point fingers at one group only instead of looking at everyone involved including themselves.
Generally it’s easy to point fingers at terrorists, because they are terrorists
You gonna reply to anyone else, or just the people that you feel give you an inch of space to try to virtue signal more?
Kind of like you coming in here pointing fingers with nothing but hot air to back you up?
Thanks for proving me right.
I didn't prove you right in any way shape or form because I didn't come here to prop up one side and denounce the other.
Let's be clear I hate humanity for the way we treat each other, the species we share this planet and the way the destroy the planet we all share.
The idea that we have to separate out cultures, traditions, ideals and even the way we dress just because "cultural appropriation" is just one more thing that divides everyone from becoming closer together and creating a better world and at this point I really don't think people actually want to despite all the things we say we could do to better the world.
You claimed I do one thing but have yet to provide the views you have and share them in a way where we can both learn so all you really have done is prove my point because I came here and said what I said and while it was pretty blunt how I feel nobody seems to want discourse when I start responding to others. Yall can't seem to handle someone seeing things from a different perspective than you and it clearly shows.
(Speaking in general, not specific to this conflict.) So, if we say we're all fucking terrible, there's still a lesser evil. Generally people tend to avoid supporting ideologies that are not compatible with democracy and human rights in the long run.
It would be wonderful if that were the case but the us is a perfect example of alot of people supporting a generally bad and backward ideology when it come to the far right and it's spreading into other parts of the world for some weird reason that isn't really explainable to me.
And to use this conflict as an example for a lesser evil if Israel wouldn't be so uncaring in their bombardments then they'd have so much more support but in this case while hamas is without question more evil the way Israel is handling things really can't be justified and makes it really difficult to want to support them on a global scale which is why governments are calling them out and it doesn't help that you don't hear anything from their own civilians about denouncing the way their government and the IDF have handled this nonsense going on.
I'd love to support them but just can't even though I agree with getting rid of hamas like they're trying because of everything else they've done in the process.
They can't even admit there's abuse in Israeli prisons. Literally, everyone who claims they were tortured is a paid actor, to their minds. And if you get past that bit of cognitive dissonance, the handwaving about everyone arrested being a terrorist is ready and waiting.
What abuse is in Israeli prisons?
The deja vu I just felt, I’ve read this exact comment thread already.
Find me a single person on this, or any other of these live threads, that denies abuse does happen in Israeli prisons.
Yeah israel isn’t a perfect country. Our government is run by a bunch of criminals. Ben Gvir is in charge of the prison system and is a disaster. But we have the sense to separate the government and the IDF because we aren’t idiots who don’t know how Israel actually works
If you're taking a roundabout route to claim that the IDF is an entity independent of the civilian government, which has its own paradigm entirely dictated by one minister with unbridled authority, you could have just said so.
I’m claiming that the IDF operates at an independent capacity and is run by the chief of the general staff and has a complex leadership structure below him. Big picture operations are approved politically but a whole lot more goes into approving strikes on targets and other smaller picture military decisions. At no point did I say it is run by one minister wtf are you talking about. It’s very clear you know very little and are running on a lot of assumptions you think are true. The prison system is not run by the IDF lmfao
We were talking about the treatment of prisoners in IDF/Israeli custody. You stated this is entirely under the auspices of Ben Gvir. I did conflate that with the entire military, which we've now clarified.
Ok.
Enlighten us
I would have dismissed your statement entirely had you not been very careful to capitalize every letter in the word "actually"... I feel that was the point that really drove your message home
How else would we be informed of the arrival of the Messiah of truth if not for capitalization?
Imagine kidnapping a baby and thinking you're on the right side of history, these pro-pals are delusional.
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6h
Political violence is never acceptable, every other refugee groups eventually stops being refugees. They should go the path of all others before them.
More so... "political violence" (or rather Jihadism, religious violence) is actually what they mostly did for the last 100 years... maybe that doesn't work? maybe they should recognize finally that there's a state called Israel that exists and isn't going anywhere, and learn to live with it peacefully alongside it?
The year is 2200
Someone born in Lebanon whose family have lived in Lebanon for over 150 years waives around a key to a long gone house in a long gone village as proof that they are actually the rightful inheritor to all of Israel
Wonder how many of those keys are actually real vs just some random key to their shed outback.
These are the people who say that Hamas needed to take hostages because it was the only way they’d get any bargaining leverage.
Keep in mind that a lot of these people are too young to remember 9/11 and they think Bin Laden had a point.
They don't mind supporting Hamas, its tactics, and its ideology, so nothing surprises me anymore... they are more pro-evil and pro-medievalism than they're pro-Palestinians
"They were simply adopting those babies whose parents they brutally murdered! Would you rather the kid be an orphan?!"
You’re being sarcastic but these are literally their excuses. I’ve seen one saying that the older hostages should be thankful for providing them company.
This looks pretty bad:
"Smotrich laid out his plans for the West Bank at a conference for his ultranationalist Religious Zionism Party last month, a recording of which was obtained by Peace Now. He said he intended to appropriate at least 15 square kilometers (nearly 6 square miles) of land in the West Bank this year."
This guy is scum
How come this doesn't show in the live thread?
The guy not only lives in an illegal settlement, he specifically built his house just outside of the official settlement to be an even bigger asshole
Literally anything Smotrich does looks bad. Because it is, usually, bad.
PIJ official: 'We will keep treating hostages same way Israel treats our prisoners'
"We will keep treating Israeli hostages the same way Israel treats our prisoners," said a spokesperson for the Palestinian Islamic Jihad's armed wing Al-Quds Brigades.
He also said that Israeli hostages attempted suicide after the PIJ's treatment of them.
Let's not all cheer how great Israeli prison is for Palestinian (or Russian) security prisoners. The prisons really are over crowded. The plumbing is miserable. And Ben-Gvir really has been starving Palestinian security prisoners since October, less rations with no provisional supply from canteen or family, also as of last week no protein. It's not hard to figure out what inspired that most recent decision but it doesn't make it right
There's no comparison between being prisoner and being a hostage. We shouldn't make that comparison for Hamas or the world. The only argument we should be making is that hostages deserve to be free and home immediately
it should be assumed then that whatever delusional allegations the palestinians make about Israel (sex crimes with dogs, etc) are actually admissions of what they're doing to the hostages
Somehow I highly doubt the hostages have access to live saving medicine and surgeries, but hey, what do I know 🙃
At least they referred to them as prisoners.
Kinda sad that PIJ has a better relationship with the truth than the Pro Pal supporters that call them “Palestinian hostages”
Translation: theyll treat the hostages how they pretend Israel is treating prisoners :(
https://youtu.be/SfyAfMrxKfU?si=Bi7PEp8QpPC1EmWY
It's in Hebrew, but if anyone want to take the part going from 5:00 onward and translate it, these "prisoners" (terrorists) get a whole grocery list of foods, have the audacity to check each vegetable if it's good, they get cuscus, sauages, pita and shnitzel, several arcticles for and a quick google translate:
https://www.now14.co.il/amp/?id=895692
So I wonder hmmm... will the hostages also get sausages and pita bread? or just a half and a beating?
Also Sinwar pursued education and got surgery during his imprisonment. Got a degree. Will the hostages also be able to go to online classes? Will they receive their medication like Mr. Tunnel Rat?
Giving them life saving surgery for free? ...I can't imagine
Reports in Lebanon that the Commander of the Aziz division in Hezbollah, which is in charge of the south eastern border area between Israel and Lebanon (Around the Golan area) was killed in a strike on a car in Tyre not too long ago
This is pretty huge, he was the same rank as the commander of the Nasr division that was killed not even a month ago, that means the 2/3 regional divisions in Hezbollah's southern Lebanon command lost their commanders
Guys we can go to war I just installed my generator. Thanks Hezbollah for being so polite!
I can see it now: "the Zi*nists named it Tyre to kil! our hez leaders in their cars, which have tires."
I'm sure fewer leaders won't stop Hezzie from doing a w*r, but I hope it does measurable damage to their ability to engage in it.
There's a thread in the Lebanon subreddit about it if you want to see their view. It seems like it's not a good thing for Hezzie boys.
Hopefully they rein it in if they know that Israel can get to their most senior commanders
Do they need highly skilled tacticians or people willing to give orders in places the bombs are gonna drop? If its the 2nd one, I dont think finding replacements is gonna be real hard.
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19h
This has nothing to do with the reports you allude to, that's your own interpretation.
The tweet explicitly refers to "false reports and accusations from the Security Service and it's media reporters"
Nowhere in the tweet does he reference rape and torture (though to be honest, from what I know of him, I'm sure he wouldnt mind if that happens).
He specifically refers to the overcrowded conditions and reduction of amenities "to the minimum" (he uses those words, translated): less shower time, less outside time, no access to electronics, something about money I don't understand (sorry), no canteens, no nice food menus.
Nothing about what you're talking about, just a reduction of prison conditions from.. well, luxurious to the bare minimum.
This is specifically in reference to what he told voters he would do and his political battle with the security service (lol, what a sentence)
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17h
Sure!
There was common "lore" or knowledge amongst Israelis that Palestinians ran the prison via gangs/mafia like structures, even way before the war, and used it to get better conditions (like what happens in US prisons)
The "they" he refers to are the Palestinian terrorists.
It is vaguely worded though, but to a Hebrew reader, there is no allusion to the wardens/IDF/security service being the "they" here, if that makes sense.
Basically, it's worded in a mocking way, as if it's a travesty that this happened (IMO, my Hebrew is not 100%), and that he opposes this, which wouldnt make sense if interpreted the way you are interpreting it.
He was talking only about the part on condition, not r@ape and torture,
Your specific translation that picked up to show half true misinformation,
Nice, usual internet bias propaganda,
I read the entire post in Hebrew, so no, classic internet half true
User deleted comment
18h
He is referring to the conditions he describes immediately after, i.e. reduction of prison amenities for terrorists to the bare minimum (he uses those words).
It has nothing to do with what you are accusing him of saying, that is entirely your own insertion into his very strictly defined context.
In Hebrew he explicit talk about the condition, not torture ,
Go spread half trues again; posting a single sentence out of context is worth NOTHING
User deleted comment
18h
If you ignore my core argument that is providing a single statement outside of context, doesn't show all the truth, and keep repeating the exact quote,
I am done with your argument; you ignore my core argument that picking a single statement from all tweets doesn't show the entire context.
Either ignorance or just out of power to manage an honest conversation with real good intent to understand the other side,
Have a good day
This is misleading. He never said that the reports of torture and rape were true, rather that the conditions are no longer like that of a summer camp.
I hate Ben Gvir as much as anyone and believe that even the most despicable POW or terrorist should be treated according to international law, but please don't spread misinformation like this.
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18h
Read the whole tweet before you get your hate boner fully bricked up
'Abdel Qader Sabbah appeared in photographs with senior Hamas leaders online and actively praised terrorists while also carrying out unnamed tasks for the terror organization, the report claims.
The report cites CNN's platforming of Sabbah's work. He has also worked for the Associated Press, and his platforming casts doubt on the journalistic integrity of the network and the Hamas terror group's ties to it. The report also raises concerns about journalistic standards and vetting practices of reporters for the media network, in addition to the story content published by the outlet.'
At this point it’s becoming easier to just assume any AP contributor in Gaza is part of Hamas until proven otherwise
There's no free press in Gaza. The western press outlets should have known years ago.
The MSM knows. They don't care. Just like they knew Biden had dementia and tried to hide it up to the debate, at which point they had to admit it with an "aw shucks, how could we have known? We only spent the last year telling people videos of him having issues were cheapfakes." The mainstream media is absolute garbage.
When the hysteria abates, I believe the events in Gaza will not be remembered by the world as particularly important. People were killed, most of them Palestinians, including many unarmed innocents. I wish I could say the tragedy of their deaths, or the deaths of Israel’s soldiers, will change something, that they mark a turning point. But they don’t. This round was not the first in the Arab wars with Israel and will not be the last. The Israeli campaign was little different in its execution from any other waged by a Western army against a similar enemy in recent years, except for the more immediate nature of the threat to a country’s own population, and the greater exertions, however futile, to avoid civilian deaths.
The lasting importance of this summer’s war, I believe, doesn’t lie in the war itself. It lies instead in the way the war has been described and responded to abroad, and the way this has laid bare the resurgence of an old, twisted pattern of thought and its migration from the margins to the mainstream of Western discourse—namely, a hostile obsession with Jews.
Damn, the more things change.
The critiques that Senderovich and others articulated center on several articles that Tablet has published in the past five years, including a June piece attacking gender-affirming care for trans people and a piece from last year imploring synagogues not to require Covid-19 vaccines. Several of the magazine’s regular contributors are outspoken Trump supporters whose pieces have, for example, attacked the FBI’s Mar-a-Lago raid and celebrated the former president’s ultranationalist speeches, and much of the magazine’s content is focused on decrying liberal “wokeness.”
That said. Hm.
Oh, they knew.
Gee guys, I’m starting to think all these Gaza-based “journalists” employed by western news orgs are in fact terrorist scum. Who would’ve thought?
On the plus side, he has amazing access.
Literally first on the scene..
The US and Europe need to be tougher on Iran before it's too late.
Increase the economic pressure and do not make the mistake of releasing their frozen assets again (like Biden did).
The regime is practically screwed if Hezbollah is weakend. If a war with Hezbollah is unavoidable, I hope Israel is free to minimize its casualties while maximizing the pain inflicted on the terrorists.
Stay safe guys.
Too bad it’s a big year for elections and they can’t afford to lose the pro-terrorist vote
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wanting more clarification. What exactly do you mean by "The regime is practically screwed if Hezbellah is weakened"? What chain of events do you predict happening if they're defeated?
Unfortunately he is wrong. Iran is the head of the snake. They will still have formidable capabilities at their disposal as well as terrorist allies throughout Iraq, Syria, and Yemen.
Sure, but they won't have any more serious ways to threaten Israel. Those other terrorists are thousands of kilometers away. They aren't in western Syria.
If Israel can topple the Hezbollah regime and institute a western aligned government in Lebanon like in Egypt, then things will look very different.
I agree that things will look much different but disagree that the regime will be practically screwed
Yes everyone, the terrorists still have many hostages including a baby
RIP Liora Argamani :(
How wonderful she got to spend her last weeks with her daughter.
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1d
This is Butthurt at warcrime levels.
They aren't war crimes. But you were implying they were. And your edit makes it clear that we read your implication correctly, so yes, "such a comment" will be downvoted.
This is Butthurt at warcrime levels.
It's not. It's called "Collateral Damage" and Military Necessity".
Numbers that will of course be skewed heavily towards Palestinians deaths given Israel has taken measure to prevent civilian casualties
(Iron Dome in 2011, Gaza wall in 1994)
Bomb shelters too. A reminder that Hamas did not let a single civilian into its tunnels and bunkers to protect themselves, while Israel has bomb shelters for everyone.
I am curious when we started viewing the mortality of wars purely by the number of civilian casualties on each side
When did we as a species become incapable of understanding nuance
This isn't a number game,
You attack a country; a country defends itself. Don't cry to the world when you lose,
Hamas hides behind civilians; each death is painful and sad, but they are *ALL* on Hamas.
No need to be curious, use google.
Absolutely heartbreaking to think about the reunion that could have taken place if Noa was rescued/released just a bit earlier
This is so sad. I hope that deep down she knew her daughter was back home. May her memory be a blessing and may the family find the strength they need ❤️
Thankfully the family has a bitter-sweet story in the end, rather than just bitterness.
The German newspaper 'Bild' from its diplomatic sources: War in Lebanon is imminent unless Hezbollah stops the attacks, The date is already set in Israel and according to them it'll happen in 'the latter half of July'
Bild is a tabloid rag, it's a not a credible source.
Are there examples where it reported something false?
This doesn't answer my question though.
Unironic answer: They are good at getting scoops, and have an unparalleled connection to the Conservatives and Liberales. It's entirely possible they find out about this through their own sources first
At the same time, they are a typical yellow press tabloid. Bad quality control, loaded speech, not shying away from publishing personal data, sometimes risking angry mobs attacking people after Bild reported bullshit about them
Stuff like this foreign policy news is correct more likely than not. They can be expected to have contacts to diplomatic stuff that still works for Germany since the Merkel era
I guess it's like the Sun, but with the connections of the "Torygraph"
I dunno
Ask the German users in the Ukraine thread that literally joke it's only accurate because you can expect the truth to be the exact opposite of what they report
It's not that bad, they have a clear agenda though, which is to support the conservative party CDU (not the far right AFD!).
So mid-September then.
If it's anything like my Israeli friends showing up late every time - it'll happen next year
This comes following the launch of 20 rockets from the area into Israeli territory
hamas probably have a similar rocket manufacturing in Khan Younis
How dare the IDF destroy Gaza’s manufacturing sector!
I wish there was a faction of Gaza'ns willing and Able to stand up to Hamas, though I don't know how such a resistance could be fostered or armed without causing even bigger problems or without putting the few good faith actors at further risk.
I know that it is hypocritical to say while sitting comfortably thousands of miles away, but without a genuine Palestinian opposition interested in lasting peace, it will ensure the suffering will go on indefinitely.
In particular, it's surprising that the various crime clans haven't taken over just because they can.
Did you read what Palestinians around the world said when asked about Oct 7th?
Atleast in my country, their answer as always the same : "Well, in resistances there will always be casualties, unfortunately for the hostages."
It's not about standing up for their actual oppressors, it's that they don't want to.
Can you post the link for that? I'm curious to read it.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to find the specific article, I think it was from October. I did find other articles though, which kinda echo the same sentiment. "I don't care about the attacks or civilians, I care about fighting oppression".
I really appreciate you looking!
I'll find it for you once I get off work, it might be only in Finnish though. Will share the english version if we have it!
Here's one from Aus. "I'm smiling and I'm happy," [the sheikh] said. "I'm elated, it's a day of courage, it's a day of pride, it's a day of victory. This is the day we've been waiting for."
Sadly, many of the rival factions to Hamas also bragged about participating on October 7th.
And not just Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Fatah-aligned Al-Aqsa Martyrs and the DFLP and PFLP publicly took credit for participating in the attack.
I think it’s time to accept that the vast majority of the population in Gaza supports Hamas.
Or those that don't are keeping their mouths shut
Tacit support is still support.
it's a rough state to be in, toying a line in what must be a chaotically hostile environment. I won't argue that there's plenty of people who genuinely support Hamas, but I can't imagine being in a position of just trying to survive in what can very quickly become an active warzone
That's fair. You probably want to leave the area where the IDF is about to show up.
Allegedly Netanyahu, Gallant, and the head of the Israeli Prison System don't know who approved the head of Shifa hospital's and 50 more Palestinian prisoners' release back into Gaza. What a bizarre situation
Well someone definitely approved it
Head of Shin Bet says it's because they were running out of space. He also says the ministers pointing the fingers at him are the same ones who denied him the ability to extend capacity. Those released posed the least threat (which is comparative of course).
And that is sorta right with regards to the head of the hospital. He may have been aiding and abetting, but he was not a combatant. And anywhere he goes now he'll have a large microscope on him.
It was the Shabak, they claim it was due to a shortage of detainment facilities.
In Britain, we're frequently releasing people early due to full prisons. Some are having to be held in police custody suites.
Is it because there's not enough prisons? Or because some prisons are simply designated as not fitting for usage?
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’Best offer so far': Israel receives Hamas response to hostage deal proposal
Mediators have conveyed to the Israeli negotiation team Hamas' response to Jerusalem's hostage deal proposal," the Prime Minister's Office said in a statement on behalf of Mossad, adding that Israel was "reviewing the response and will reply to the mediators in due course." Israeli security officials said, "This is the best offer so far; it is a basis for progress." They noted that several issues have yet to be resolved, such as IDF presence on the Philadelphi Corridor on Gaza's southern end and a veto on the identities of prisoners to be released" (Itamar Eichner)