User deleted post
Anything with a B58
B58 is bulletproof but you have to “step down” to a 340. The M3 motor is an S58
I am well aware. That said a G20 M340 is about as quick as an E9x M3. Not that speed is all that makes an M but still plenty quick for most people like the other commenter said.
it’s a lot more quick lol. especially with x drive
B58 is still plenty fast for 90% of people
320-380hp is more than enough power for a car
B58 the world
I have 2 (M240 manual and X3). Love them both
Kind crazy that whether it’s a Toyota Supra or Ineos Grenadier, it’s a B58 under the hood
there's more to a car than just the engine
Absolutely love mine. OP could always tune it to squeeze some more jelly out of the b58 donut. I plan to but not because it’s slow, but because I’m dumb.
As someone who drives 2 German cars that are over 10 years old, you'll need to have a safety budget of several thousand dollars for maintenance items even if the car has been well maintained for the last decade. Lots of parts wear out due to age and are labor intensive to replace. They are great cars, but you really need to do your research and make sure you're in a position where you can afford to have the car in the shop for several days at a time when undergoing routine maintenance. If you don't do your own wrenching or have a trustworthy German mechanic nearby, I would avoid any M-Series, AMG, or RS performance vehicle.
Thank you i will keep this in mind.
To be honest, only buy a BMW/Benz/Audi if you can afford to maintain it. If a ohh shit happens, and requires you dropping $5k or more will put you in debt, DON’T buy one.
Honestly if you find one for around 5k, a well maintained cheap old 3 series isn’t the worst investment. Just plan to put the same amount of money you spent on the car on repairs, treat the cost as 10k
Yeah idk why people pretend like it’s some impossible barrier to entry. Are they more expensive to maintain? Yes. But if you factor that in you can still get a good car for the money. They’re not likely to break down more often than any other generic car, it’s just more to get them serviced
And remember that a $9k one is probably going to need $1k worth of something this year.
I used to drive an older 911. I just always had to be prepared to drop $5k on it from time to time. And I did. It was fine with me but it got on my wife's nerves so I drive a Miata now.
An ISF is a better choice at this point.
Basically keep at least 10,000 emergency fund. I've spent double that on my 9 year old Audi in the past year to keep it on the road. And I havnt even hit 100,000 miles.
What was the list of repairs that added up to $20k? Sounds like a good story...
listen to the sage advice and specific examples this man has posted.
There’s a reason why the BMW depreciates so quickly. They’re AMAZING cars when up and running correctly but not for the casual enthusiast.
Yes. I tell you what tho.. my BMW was the smoothest driving car I ever had. Absolutely perfect balance & gentle ride at any speed. Precise turning. It’s like driving a finely tuned analog watch. Until one day it just decided not to go into gear at all. And i was a good enough stick driver that i never even used the clutch pedal. Ahh well…. I have memories
one day it just decided not to go into gear at all
i never even used the clutch pedal
Hmm
“How to cook a synchro in 50k”
Like and subscribe.
lol. Must be the cars fault.
Oh I have no doubt it was the best car you’ve ever owned when it ran properly. It’s when they go belly-up on you that the nightmares begin.
It’s why you lease them. 3 years then back to the lot with you for a new one.
They went from ehhh...ok reliablility to italian reliability and are only now seeming to recover.
I hope they are in the bounce-back phase, I’ll rent and enjoy them, but will only buy Japanese cars and SUVs and American trucks. Still love the German aesthetic (and the Italian cars are BEAUTIFUL) but I don’t have surgeon money to afford them.
Imagine if some of the premium price meant increased reliability. What a world.
That’s called a 200 series Land Cruiser
Seen people say the newer ones are quite alot better but have no first hand experience.
Would you lump the M340 and other M-Lites in with the full Ms? I always assumed the M-Lites would be less fussy.
Less fussy, yes - but the maintenance is still generally expensive.
I'm less familiar with BMW, but I specifically chose my Audis because the 3.0T Supercharged V6 is generally a bulletproof engine, and it's paired with the reliable ZF8 transmission (also in many BMWs). I spent a few thousand dollars between the 80k-100k mileage mark on routine maintenance (PCV, thermostat, transmission flush, etc) so maintenance is still costly - but both vehicles have been problem free
Do some research on the engines and drivetrains in the specific models you're interested in, as the reliability is generally tied to the engine rather than the model.
I like the suggestion that you need to have a cushion of about $5,000 for repairs and maintenance. The thing you have to realize is that maintenance schedules for Japanese cars can really be treated as recommendations in most cases, and honestly if you change the oil once a year and don’t let them run dry of coolant, they will soldier on for years. Maintenance schedules in German cars are more like “Orders vich must be obeyed! At all times und mit out kvestion!”
That said, I love BMWs and I think they are fabulous cars as long as you know what to expect
Well put😂 will keep in mind lol already planning on having a decent amount set aside for emergencies and insurance payments so i dont have to struggle pulling them out of my paychecks
For what it’s worth, I will give you my hint on the biggest single tell when you’re looking at a used luxury car. Look at the tires. if the car has either mismatched tires, or some piece of shit Chinese tires, it’s a clue that it was owned by someone who could not afford to maintain it. Look for Michelin, or Continental, or Pirelli, or Bridgestone, or even Goodyear.
This is a good rule of thumb, although there are some good Japanese tyres out there. I went with Yokohama on the recommendation of a buddy who owns a tyre shop. I was going to go with ps4s, but he suggested the Yokohama. Been pleased with them. (My car is otherwise well documented with its service history)
Yeah, I hadn’t meant that to be an exhaustive list. Yokohama is definitely legit. I would even say Kumho is okay - just not Iron Man, or Lionheart, or Ling Sung Lucky Drive
The 2010 BMW M3 is the E92 generation with a V8. They are fairly reliable. Rod bearings are the most common issue, which costs around $1400 to remedy. It's considered a maintenance item. Starting in 2014 was the F80 generation with the I6 Twin Turbo. It's generally regarded being very reliable as well. I've owned two F80's and they were both very reliable.
fairly reliable
Rod bearings are the most common issue
It's considered a maintenance item.
These things can't all exist as one
People will say all sorts of shit but ive had quite a few and non have been unreliable but theyre more to maintain and not toyota level “fuck it.” The fun factor far outweighs the pricier maintenance. Mine have ranged from 91-08 and none have exploded like the wifes ford
Yea thats a large date range. Theres actually 2 generations in there, E92 M3 or F80? F80 AFAIK was more reliable than the E92, but BOTH are not cheap to maintenance. Thats the keyword here, you know all those BMWs that are super unreliable and break all the time your friends/family are talking about? They weren't maintenanced, not just someone did the oil changes, but did FULL services according to the manual/manufacturer standards. IT costs much more to maintain the car the correct way than just doing fluids, people dont want to do that, then question why the car has problems down the line. IF you have the $$$ to keep up with maintenance and also have $$$ ready incase something goes wrong (not just german cars, any car). The issue is BMWs and other german cars need these done WHEN IT SAYS SO, not "ill get it in next month", when it says the service is needed. (if you can work on your own cars, not just say it, actually know what youre doing you can save a LOT of money on repairs.)
Also be aware that BMWs will on average have more things go wrong than a toyota, this is due to the toyota isnt as complicated as the BMW, the BMW has more features and luxuries that other "normal" cars dont. "just means more to go wrong" rings true here, but also, leads to a much more comfortable/fun driving experience. This also leads to "you get what you pay for" which is also true in good and bad ways, BMW will absolutely be a more fun drive compared to economy cars. But only a nice one, dont go on FB marketplace and find the cheapest M3 you can find, you need to pay for a nice example that was treated well if you want it to treat you well.
One last reminder that they can be expensive, my friends E92 335i needed a new battery, $600 bill from the dealer. Just a battery. Really know what youre getting into before youre upside down in a cheap 335i that had full bolt ons and tuned, because that thing was beat to shit, I know how my friend drives his lol.
if you are okay with all of that, absolutely BMW's are not bad at all and quite frankly some of the best sports cars you can go buy, truly feel amazing to drive (especially M's) and id recommend one in a heartbeat.
How would you maintain the electrical or heating/air conditioning so they don’t fail after the warranty expires? I’ve heard plenty of this happening from owners and service techs alike.
Owned lots of them. You have to learn about each specific model you are considering, and then learn what to look and plan for with those cars in particular. So for my car, an E46 M3 I know that the big issues are the VANOS system which needs to be rebuilt, the rear subframe which need to be reinforced with aftermarket parts, and the rod bearings which need to be serviced. This is in addition to normal stuff like tires, brakes, oil changes etc.
When buying a used one, you’d want to know about, and ask about, the common issues with that model. This is in addition to doing a proper pre purchase inspection. If they haven’t been done, plan those into your near term budget.
Of course you have to find an awesome Indy bmw mechanic who’s going to take care of it for you. Hopefully there are some in your area. Most metro areas have more than one. A shop owned and run by a former bmw dealership tech is ideal.
With those numbers in mind you can decide if it’s “that bad” or “not that bad”.
To me, taking it to my guy 20 miles away a few times a year and having him do what needs to be done to be able to daily my crispy M3 is more than worth it.
This this and this!! You need to know about that version of BMW and it's engine, trans, transfer case, common leaks. Even something as simple as a timing chain can be a certain killer on a specific year like the 2013 BMW X series.
It’s an M car, which makes it even more expensive on upkeep than a standard BMW. Parts are more, fluids are more. Most people that keep a E92 long term change the rod bearings. Then of course all the standard BMW stuff like leaking gaskets and disintegrating plastic bits in the coolant system apply. They seem to do better when diligently garage kept as far as leaks go.
I am close with someone who has kept a 12 year old E92 since it was new. He has kept it immaculate. But as far as the cost of keeping it immaculate for 12 years … let’s just say it probably adds up to a pretty nice new or near new Honda civic.
There should be more emphasis that this is an M car
M cars are completely different than “regular” BMWs, especially in the cost to maintain.
Most likely, OP would be more than happy with a non M BMW.
OP, do more research on what an M BMW is
I used to have an e90 M3 and it was one of my favorite cars ever. However…
There is a significant ///M tax on those. Everything is more expensive. Price tires, brakes (you’ll be shocked), suspension components, etc, etc. Oh, and gas and insurance! Mine got about 15 mpg…
If you’re good with those costs the only big gotcha on them is the rod bearings. Either buy one that’s had them done or keep money for it in reserve.
If I didn’t drive so much I’d still have mine. It was a phenomenal car but I couldn’t keep pumping premium into it at the rate it drinks it at >500 miles/wk.
Yeah mpg really gets annoying after awhile. I had an e36 m3 for a few years when I lived in San Francisco, got at the most 15 mpg going up and down all those hills. Still blows my mind that my current mk7 gti is faster, makes more power, and gets 30 mpg if I’m not driving back roads
As another S65 enjoyer I vote do RB's as soon as you can or at least get oil analysis to guide your decision. Otherwise it's pretty roll of the dice.
You may like a 340 or 440i or they’re m lite counter parts. Lot cheaper.
This is the right answer. The b58 is great and op could get one with some warranty left.
Either an F30 335i/340i (N55/B58) or an F32/F36 435i/440i (N55/B58). B58 has proven itself to be an incredible engine over the last few years. The ZF8HP automatics in these are near-bulletproof.
Purchase as new as you can afford, only consider examples with service history/records or a return guaranty (CarMax), and consider a comprehensive extended warranty that can be used at a dealership (e.g. CarMax’s MaxCare) in case anything does go wrong.
Be diligent and proactive with maintenance and don’t skimp on repairs and service when reauired. If you purchase a BMW and run it on a shoestring budget, that is perhaps one of the worst things you can do to yourself.
As others said, and from my own experience, have a “cushion” of money set aside for a rainy day and for consumables like brakes and tires.
I've been driving BMWs since 1991. Loved everyone of them. Maintenance is key for any vehicle. Period.
I had a 328xi. Loved it. But with 3 kids it was too small. 10 years later the kids are out of the house. I just picked up an ‘09 128i convertible.
So fun. I couldn’t be happier. Manual, red, drives like a dream.
Get what makes you happy.
B series engines FTW. stay newer than about 2016 and you're good
Don’t listen to them. F80 is super reliable. E90 less so but it makes up in sound and fun.
I’ve had an ‘18 F80 since new. Biggest expense has been tires. But that was my choice to run Cup2s on the street. PS4S Would be a much more sensible choice.
ZERO things have gone wrong. Most reliable car I’ve ever owned. If you don’t mod it and maintain properly, it will serve you well.
Maintenance is not terribly expensive, I actually take it to the dealer even after the free maintenance expired. Biggest ticket item there has been spark plugs. If you can do some work yourself it ends up much cheaper. Brake pads are super easy to change. Oil once a year.
I came into M3 ownership after having many M cars in the past. I don’t expect Honda civic maintenance and repair costs. But this car is a sweetheart for reliability. I also track and beat the shit out of it while maintaining it as perfect as I can.
Life’s too short to drive a Corolla.
More generally BMW (and other German cars) are often just as reliable as Japanese cars if they are properly maintained. They do not tolerate being neglected and the maintenance tends to be expensive for both parts and labor. Their features are awesome but are borderline rube goldbergian in design.
Toyotas and Hondas have the reputation they do because they tolerate abuse much better and are simpler/cheaper to fix.
What do new tires cost for an M3? What do they cost for a Corolla?
It's not just reliability but even just normal routine maintenance and consumables. Ties, brakes, oil change; all those things can be WAY more expensive.
If you can afford to pay more and are willing to do so I don't see any reason you shouldn't. On the other hand if you're not in the position to do so it could be a hung risk.
I'm going to be a little pedantic but you can technically put almost any kind of tire you want on an M3 as long it fits the wheel and wheel well. Even the oem size the price range on a 265/35/19 tire can be anywhere from 200$ to 400$ per tire. The fronts are less wide and can be as cheap as 180$ a tire. Same for the corolla you can put some pretty expensive tires on a corolla.
Michelin PS4Ss for my M2 go for about $1500 for all four corners.
I’ve had several. Driven them to about 200k. I maintain them with extra care. I have a great BMW mechanic in my neighborhood & he tells me when I need to change out something. He is the key to keeping my cars in good shape.
Bro the 335/340 hauls plenty of ass for much lower cost and less maintenance overall
Those dates cover two wildly different generations of M3s. The earlier one has a v8 that revs to 9000 and is famous for rod bearing and throttle body issues. The later is a twin turbo inline 6 cylinder that is much more reliable.
It’s not waste of money, they are very nice cars. Yes, you are going to spend thousands on maintenance. If your main concerns are budgetary consider a Honda or Toyota.
I LOVE BMWs, and I've owned 5...But I wouldn't dream of owning one out of warranty. My most recent one, a 2018 X2 was paid off, and the turbo failed. $3k just for the part. $2k to properly diagnose it, then another few grand in labor. On a car with less than 60k miles.
My wife had the same car and it had issue after issue. Thousands of dollars in repairs, that luckily were covered under warranty. As soon as the platinum extended warranties expired, we got out of those cars.
User deleted comment
17d
Go for a 2016-2018. F80 Ms are way better built
New ones with B48/B58/S58 are damn good. Very very reliable. 2015ish and up.
JUST GET IT.
im only 17 and i posted this same question on reddit before i bought my e36 and was met with these same bullshit responses. literally everything you'd ever need to know is online, and if your decently efficient with working on cars the 3 series are some of the easiest. I Bought my car with no experience and i've taken the entire motor apart and turboed it ona high schooler budget.
They aren’t bad vehicles at all. Just expensive af for parts.
They’re great. Just learn how to wrench so you’re not the boob getting your tires inflated at the dealer complaining about how expensive it all is.
Get the e92 man. I had one and the engine is to die for.
If you’ve decided an M3 is a car you might like, you need to research the generations. An F80 M3 is a very different proposition to an E9x M3. They more or less worked out the issues with their turbo straight 6s by introduction of the F80. The V8 of the F80 was essentially a race engine de-tuned for the street. It’s well known that engine and its V10 counterpart eat rod bearings.
It’s not that you can’t have a good ownership experience with an older one, but it’s going to be heavily dependent on the previous owner and probably not the best idea for your first BMW. If you are averse to wrenching or possibly getting stranded, a B58 powered car is probably your best bet.
Early 2000's to early 2010's are terrible. They are probably worse than you hear about. You WILL spend tens of thousands on fixing things over a few years.
Recent models are actually pretty reliable, with no major issues.
In a similar boat looking for older 1 series cars. I’ve ruled out 135i because the tradeoff in reliability/maintenance costs outweighs the slight performance improvements. I’d recommend checking out car/model specific forums for the best info (the overlap in the Venn diagram for car enthusiasts:redditors isn’t the largest).
F80 m3 is pretty reliable 2016+
That whole thing is a bit overblown, or at least not so black and white. BMW is one of the highest quality car brands period. I have a 2011 328xi that has been the most reliable car I have ever had (and I take good care of my autos with regular service). 120k miles and still drives as great as day 1. BMW dealerships will fleece you on service, that is true. I take mine to an independent bmw service company. Yes, repairs will cost a bit more than comparable repairs to a toyota or honda, but its also a performance car that is more fun. I don’t regret owning a bmw at all but you have to be realistic with your budget and factor in some of the cost of ownership. My main point is that a modern bmw isn’t going to be any less reliable than other brands cars, and my experience has been they are more reliable.
If you want an M3 I encourage you to get one. The e92 will probably need more love and be slower than a g80 but it will have more pizazz. Just be aware of the M tax. In my experience M cars cost a bit more to maintain, even if you do your own labor. For example the S63 in my M5 took 8.5 quarts of oil. Big brakes are expensive ~$3k and a Saturday morning for pads + rotors on all 4 corners, every 30k miles. If you use fcp euro you can just buy once and warranty exchange. Good tires can be pricey and you can’t rotate them if your wheels are staggered. My M5 needed new PS4S on the rear every 10k miles. Do your research and buy something you can afford.
2014 X1 3.5i. 80K (50K when bought four years ago). replaced water pump. that's it.
oh, local BMW pro shop commented (had them do 70K service for $198)..."if we didn't service land rovers, austins, etc, we'd be out of business"
They're not "bad," actually most are quite good cars and very fun to drive. I owned a few back in the late 90s and early 00s, including a 540 (awesome), an M3 (fair) and an X5 (terrible). When they get some age/mileage, things start to go wrong and need to be replaced. A lot of things. From bushings and bearings to valve cover gaskets and alternators. Parts are very expensive, as is labor. Lots of things are hard to replace (e.g., water-cooled alternator required removal of radiator). I learned how to do a lot of the work myself, which made things reasonable, but ultimately didn't have enough time to perform the necessary fixes (kids) and sold them.
They're also very quirky. E.g., valve cover gasket leak can ruin the regulator on the alternator, and an alternator putting out too much voltage can cause transmission issues. Luckily there are a lot of online forums on which you can find how-tos, help diagnose issues, etc. I say go for it, and have a blast driving it, but be prepared to spend money and time maintaining it.
I should add that the most reliable models are the simpler ones, the old I6s, etc. NOT the Ms, big V8s, that sort.
They’re not “bad” they’re sensitive. You don’t get the level of performance and feel out of a car without a lot of intricacies and tight tolerances. People don’t maintain them and at the same time drive the shit out of them and when stuff starts to go wrong they dump them. Maintenance is a bit pricier for some things and there’s a lot that should be done little by little overtime to keep them in tip top shape but people don’t want to spend a little for so long that something breaks and all that maintenance piles up to cost a lot all at once.
Expect to spend $3-5k in maintenance per year if you use it hard, more on years where you need tires (that’s for an F80—figure $6-8k/year for an E90 if you’re dailying it). It’s a $90k car new, and you’re paying for parts accordingly. Is it worth it? Sure. But you’re not going to will a cheap ownership into existence.
depending on your market $2,500-3,500 in annual maintenance and then an occasional year with $5-10k repair jobs.
So now you know M spec ownership. If you’ve always got free cash laying around and having that car is worth that much to you then go for it
Either have the budget for maintenance or learn how to turn your own wrench... The latter is more useful.
I have 2 BMWs, 1 Audi, 1 Mercedes, 2 miatas, and 1 570s. I do my own maintenance and repairs. German cars aren't that bad if you are on top of doing the maintenance and taking care of small issues before they become big issues
BMWs are a bit more tricky to work on, however there's plenty of people who have them and plenty of support , tools, etc so it makes it possible to work on them.
They aren't going to be Camry reliable , but as long as you understand that and aren't afraid to turn your own wrench , you should be ok.
I have had new bmw 3 series every three years since 2006, and a certified used one prior to that. Driving experience, quietness, and refinement A+….. maintenance and unexpected things that can go wrong will be thousands of dollars per year, including tires for like 1500-2k.
I own a 2005 M3 and a 2015 M235i, both are meticulously maintained but in the last 18 months I spent 4k on tire brakes fluids, valve cover gasket, spark plugs, and coil packs, split about 50/50 $2k each. Both are driven hard but mostly stock.
When you buy a M car, automatically prepare to fork over some preventative maintenance for each generation’s Achilles heel. E46 had the big 3. E92 eats rod bearings for breakfast. F8X has hub spin issues. Every M car needs some work to “bulletproof” these long term defect risks.
2008 to 2013 is one model. 2014 to 2019 is a different model. Very different cars. In general the 2014-2019 is more reliable in every regards
Reliability is pretty good on their straight-6 (2014 to 2019) engines. For the older V8 models, avoid 2008, ideally aim for a 2011 or newer. The older V8 is more problematic than the newer 6 cylinder… but it’s a more fun engine and better looking car in my humble opinion
However, the maintenance on any M car is going to be very expensive. Finding an independent BMW mechanic will help a lot, but it’s still going to be pricey.
Things you don’t want to cheap out on like oil, brake, tires, are all very expensive on M cars.
But if the maintenance records are good and the car wasn’t abused by the prior owner, it’s a pretty reliable car
Not if you can actually afford to purchase and maintain one.
The reddit issue is that 75% of the people here are making $10/hr working part time living in their parents basement and think it's a smart decision to buy a 2004 3-series with 187k miles on it for 6k as a reliable daily driver when they should probably be buying a civic that will cost them less to maintain.
We have a 21 540xdrive and a 22 x5m50i and have had no issues with either. But we won't keep them past the warranty because for us it's just not worth the hassles of service and maintenance as they age, even though we can easily afford it.
And people forget as these cars age, they become more expensive to repair and maintain. The price of entry on an older high mileage bmw is just the initial expense of owning one.
CR magazine,yeah I'm subscriber, anyway this year BMW was top for reliability, above Toyota etc. It's based on their subscriber completing surveys, I'm guess it's skewed newest years, go figure
BMW e30 with a Honda k24 is the way.
I owned a 2017 320i. In 2 yrs i had spent around 4500 on it. I will never go back to bmw. Unless you can do work yourself or buy a newer one thats been looked after id avoid them
N20 probably the worst engine BMW has made in years.
N20 is like a bad ex-girlfriend or boyfriend, high maintenance😂
I mean the maintenance itself isn’t bad. It’s the fact that timing chains are needed as maintenance on that engine lmao
Yeah I honestly don’t even mind timing belts because at least they are cheap to change, just do them at the right intervals. Changing timing chains though is a pain.
Bought a 2018 x3 m40 about 5 months ago. There are a few small things that have had glitches but in general it's been solid and I've already put 11k miles on it. All running gear has been solid. I'm about to do the 2nd oil change and I can't be happier.
Yes you will spend thousands on maintenance. Yes it will be worth it. You can save a lot by DIY as there are detailed instructions for all major fixes. Rod bearings and throttle actuators are probly the most costly items for an E90 M3.
If you can afford it, buy it and don't look back. They are wonderful cars to drive. I daily drove my E46 M3 for 4 years and I loved every minute.
Also, they are going up in value.
BMW has put some work into their B48 and B58 engines to the point where Toyota put that engine in their Supra. If you get a Beamer with one of those engines, you’re solid.
The other thing to keep on mind is cost of maintenance. BMWs cost more to maintain and fix than their American and Japanese counterparts. Regular maintenance just costs more and if something breaks… it’s expensive.
That said it depends on your goals. Is this your daily driver? Weekend car? Something else? That will greatly impact the meaning of reliability.
I've never been into BMWs but worked on them a while. 2010-2015 gets you in the more maintenence era from just age. Later models are better but in general BMWs maintenance can be summed up to just requiring more steps to maintain so it takes longer. Oil access can be a pain, sensor access is almost always a shit day. Suspension or tire work can get complex.
Do they drive well? Absolutely. Just budget more time for repairs/maintenance or get ready to spend more if you take it in.
For e92 m3s take extra care of DCTs, throttle actuators, and rod bearings.
For f80, biggest thing is the crank hub. Water pumps, oil filter housings, fuel injectors, and that damn exhaust flap were also issues.
One car had door handle issues i worked on but that's not exclusive to bmws. Oh diff issues as well but wasn't as common.
As long as you prepare and budget you should be set. Hope you find one you like!
335d e92 would be my choice
BMWs are great cars. Especially the newer ones. Just know they’re built by Germans and they have a culture of rule following. The engineers make amazing cars that push limits and engineering other brands don’t do. But they expect the owner will take care of the car perfectly and following rules as German culture does.
I once considered a newer used M3 or M5, but my next door neighbor has both 😠.
I bought a used MB C320 years ago, and the maintenance costs (of German cars) were as have been described in this thread. I lucked-out with this one….I bought used w/40k miles; got rid of it w/310k.
Our 15 X3d has had zero issues this far at ~110k mi. Our 15 Passat TDI that the daughter drives is a flaming piece of shit in comparison and the reason I'll never own a VW/Audi again.
If you get your self an f80 m3 2016-18 you’ll be alright those cars are built strong. Yes the crank hub issue is a thing and yes you will pay good money for maintenance and parts but find a good shop that is not money hungry and you will be just fine. The f80s are worth the money for sure. Youll start running into problems maybe when you start to mod them and thats a maybe. Otherwise get an f80 the driving experience is wonderful
Any high performance cars need proper maintenance, sad to say a lot of BMW gets trashed due to lack of maintenance, if you can turn a wrench and YouTube ,BMW are not that bad on maintenance costs, it’s also not boring to drive.
You will spend thousands on maintenance. So definitely budget for that. All cars are somewhat expensive to run. BMWs are a bit more than average. They're also less expensive than the exotics.
I've owned used BMWs, it's not that terrifying. But you have to either be buying well within your budget, or something with a warranty. Because every time you go to the shop it's probably a grand unless you're just getting the oil changed. And if there's anything serious it could easily be 2-3 grand.
If you are responsible with your finances and you love the car, it's EASILY doable within a very middle-class budget. I know because I did it. But if you spend your last dime buying the car, don't be Mr. Surprised Pikachu Face when it needs $2500 in general what-have-yous 6 months later.
I own a 2017 BMW M2 and knew what I was getting into before I got here and have a budget for this but...$130 for 10L of oil and filter, $40 for engine/cabin filters, $86 for spark plugs $15 for socket and $$ for a torque wrench if you don't own one, $250 for aluminum charge pipe, will have to do brakes and rotors soon for ~$1400. It's expensive and that's why people say to stay away from them. That's all routine and preventative maintenance and I wrench on my own. That $100 for spark plugs could easily turn into $400-500 at a dealer. Plus these cars are often geared towards luxury and sport so think wider tires. $1500 for all four on my M2.
As someone who has had two e46 m3’s since 16 (I’m 20 now) it really depends on who you buy it from. Some owners don’t take care of them & when they start to go bad they sale them. While on the other side some owners take extra good care of them & know the car is in great condition. The price & description is usually where you can tell what type of owner they are. Cheap will not be the best I tell you that.
Do research on common problems & ask the owners if they have addressed those issues. Also if you are willing to DIY the work it’s not as expensive as people say. There is a lot of youtube videos on these cars on how to do the work yourself. Also for those years I personally wouldn’t trust a dealer, they are just trying to make some money, they don’t know anything more than what the CarFax says. Good luck.
Kind of an awkward way to break it up bc 10-13 is still E9x for m3s and 14-18 is F8x. However, IMO they’re only “bad” if you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into. I’m sure when they first came out and all the issues were a surprise they were probably a little bit more annoying but they’re old cars now, all of their issues and “unreliability’s” are known now. Do your research and go into it with the mindset of, “those issues are a when not an if” and you won’t regret it at all. I had an E92 that had two known leaks when I bought it, (didn’t care bc the car was a good price) after fixing the leaks (oil filter housing gasket needed replaced and the valve cover gaskets were leaking very very slowly but I just replaced them at the same time anyways) the car never had any other issues at all. It ended up getting totaled and I got a c63s and now I’m looking for another E92 bc it was a stupidly fun car and I’ll happily go through it again. If you can do the work yourself, great, if not find a good shop in your area. It could be different where you are but the 2 closest BMW dealers to me charge $175 & $200 an hour for labor. Personally I never had an F8x (beautiful car I just prefer v8s) but friends who’ve had one never really had any issues with them besides their oil filter housing gasket, which is still a thing on the even the g80s, its like an easter egg atp lmfao
Forgot about this: The diff had a seal that needed replaced but I have a steep driveway and for whatever reason it only leaked if I backed the car in so I just always pulled it in and that solved that issue
As others have pointed out, 2 different generations and the costs on m cars are higher than regular bmws. Brake Rotors (just parts, no pads) were $2k for my m2, whereas my regular 3er are only $1k.
Anyone can lease a bmw, but it takes a true baller to have one afterwards.
The other thing is that they're like a high maintenance partner. Every now and then you'll need to spend some big bucks to keep them happy, and if you don't, they're taking half your shit and leaving.
As someone who owns his 2nd BMW they are fairly reliable if maintained. It’s not just oil changes but gotta do the brake fluid every 3-5 years, transmission fluid every 60k miles (even though BMW says the fluid is lifetime) and if it’s AWD you need to do transfer. Saw and different rial fluids at 60k too. That’s like $1500 every 60k so not too awful. Now an M3 is a different animal. It has the rarer S58 engine and Parts are more specialized and therefore more expensive (not just on the power train but many of the suspension and other wearable parts). Personally I’d go with a 2016 - 2018 340 M Sport which has the more widely used and reliable B58 engine and tube it with Bootmod3. You can get next to M3 power and have lower repair costs, pay less for the car, and pay less to insure it.
they do cost more to maintain than a toyota but if you do regular maintenance not any more than other high end cars.
Sounds exhausting to own a BMW, I love my Lexus.
Still driving my 07 328xi No expensive issues. 220k miles
Yes, unless they're brand-new. I drove an old one when stationed in Germany and it was...not great. I was trying to coax a few more months out of it before going home and my mechanic said "Ja...I am thinking that driving this car is the greatest American idea since the Space Shuttle." I made it...but I donated it the day before I left. I wouldn't have felt right trying to sell it.
You have to realize that this sub hates BMW with a burning passion. You’ll rarely see posts here that favor BMW. I’ve come to realize that the people who shit on BMW are the people who are driving a Toyota Prius. Yes BMWs are much more expensive and probably less reliable, but no person buys a BMW for reliability. They buy it because they are some of the most technology equipped, have phenomenal performance, and are damn fun cars to drive. They aren’t meant to go 250,000 miles, but I do suppose they certainly could with proper maintenance and driving habits. At the end of the day, if you’re living paycheck to paycheck, then go with a Toyota. If you’re upper middle class and a driving enthusiast, then you absolutely cannot go wrong with BMW
If you can't afford a new one you can't afford a used one.
I have a 1998 z3 that's still going strong so...
Great question I’m considering a used X5 2019 or 2020 but I wonder how reliable it really is?
Yes, they can be for sure. Bad engines for real.
Reddit: "Did owning a BMW ever work for these people?"
OP: "No. It never does. I mean these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might.
But......it might work for us."
I’ve owned two. A 528i 2010, and a 2022 m40i. Both excellent cars but the difference is you don’t know how the previous owner treated the vehicle and scheduled maintenance is pricey on BMWs and god forbid if something major goes wrong out of warranty like the tranny. My 2010 did this weird hard shift until it was warm and I took it to an independent shop and was quoted 2k to rebuild. Of course I didn’t do it but just be mindful that out of warranty things happen as the car ages and an M is a performance vehicle so shit is gonna get pricey quick. But if you have the money, yolo.
I mean if you’re concerned about thousands in maintenance, an m3 might not be in the cards. Not bashing on bmws, they are better than most people say they are. However, the m3 can definitely take some upkeep and if you’re buying over the 100k mile mark they will certainly need some big items. Just is what it is with an older performance car
Ask a BMW mechanic. They’re great cars if you know what to buy and keep on top of maintenance. Our family has 4 and we love them all. While repairs can cost more than other vehicles, I think it’s entirely worth it and manageable particularly if you don’t mind learning to fix easy things yourself.
Google average yearly cost of maintenance for the car you want. Parts costs are probably high compared to other cars.
If you do this, FCP Euro is your friend. Look up their parts warranty.
I dailied my E90 335i after doing a top-mount single turbo conversion. I did three or four oil changes per year because of the big turbo, and the top-mount chewed through O2 sensors like they were candy. Other than that, smooth and a reasonable volume when I wasn’t romping on her for turbo and BOV sounds. Minus blacking out the grilles and letters on the trunk plus installing M3-style front fenders, I kept the exterior stock, so she was a sleeper. Anyway, I digress…
I’d recommend planning on $5,000 to $6,000 for maintenance and problems for a stock M3 of the same generation, annually. I replaced thousands of dollars of stock parts before I did the conversion, but FCP Euro made that much easier to stomach due to their warranty policy.
So my BMW X3 was the newest, most expensive, lowest mileage car I've ever owned, and it has been a maintenance nightmare. I have lost its purchase cost over again in maintenance, and the remaining issues it has means I won't be selling it for much more than scrap.
The temp sensor failed, AWD servo failed, clock spring failed, swirl flapped jammed and required removal, headlining disintegrated an needed repairing, the brake booster failed, the turbo failed (expensive!), and the slipping transmission, torque converter, and central locking issues are still on-going. All in two years, from a car with a full dealership service history.
I've been told many times I've got a 'dud' model with the n47 engine - but the engine has been fine. Everything else has gone wrong though. So keep that in mind when people talk about 'bulletproof' engines, there's more to a car than its engine.
But some people love them - it is a very fun car to drive when it works. They can't all be this bad or they would have gone out of business. But I wouldn't buy one again.
The fear of BMW maintenance is a blessing because it means you can get these excellent cars at a good price. In reality, if you pick the right one, they can be pretty damn reliable as long as they aren’t neglected.
To the commenter saying that a 15 year old M3 will require more maintenance, I beg to differ. I’ve owned an E46 M3 and E92 M3, both of which have been more reliable than people would lead you to believe. I put a lot of miles on both. Believe it or not, my E92 has never spontaneously broken anything on the motor, drivetrain, chassis, suspension, etc. You just need to be informed and do your research.
I will say that, being a luxury car, parts and maintenance are more expensive than something like a toyota, but that should be a given.
I would say go for it.
No bmws arent that bad, not from my experience and not statistically. My bmw has done 300.000km very reliably.
But i know someone with an M3 from that period and spare parts are extremely expencive. So when something breaks or just just need new brakes, it will cost 10 years of maintanance on a normal car.
Only if you can afford to randomly have $5k or more leave your bank account at any given time.
Get a 2020 or 2021 m340i
If you’re asking this question then those cars aren’t for you what kills owning an M car or even a non M is paying for labor to repair a simple maintenance item if you’re not mechanically inclined you’d be better off buying a “sporty” Camry or accord of some sort
As someone who restores old BMWs, and has driven newer ones, yes, new BMWs are shit. I love the things, but I can work on them. I would never recommend them to someone who couldn’t.
Yes.
What do you mean by bad?
Also, yes.
Yes. But only in comparison to other car the same model year.
Don’t do it
I used to have a BMW in college. It was 9 years old when I got it. The maintenance and up keep was constant. My buddy had a 2011 Mercedes 300C he inherited from grandfather. He had it for a year and a half. It cost him $9,400 in maintenance. He got rid of it last month.
BMWs are great but you should pick the right configuration. Everything M is a lot more expensive and fragile than all of the other BMWs and that's normal because it's a performance car. If you want BMW just buy one with B58 engine. They put it in every model. Then if you want power just make a software upgrade, new turbo, different filters, different exhaust system, methanol injection, and always bigger brakes with more power. Generally speaking the sky is the limit with B58 engine - very durable and reliable machine. And don't forget to change the engine oil every 5k miles as well as gearbox oil every 20-25k miles.
Nothing more expensive than a cheap BMW. I know this because I bought a cheap BMW which has subsequently almost bankrupted me. Love driving it, but hate owning it.
BMWs drive great. They look awesome. They're expensive as hell to fix.
You’re gonna find the reliable ones at toyota dealers.
brother has a 2016 4 series. it's been good put including the repairs he's gonna do now he's spent about 4k on repairs over 5 years. There's some jobs that cost a fortune and if you can't do the work yourself it costs a lot to get the parts AND pay labor. To be fair the headlights on my honda are 900 a piece so all prices went up. But bmws being performance vehicles has a bit to do with it. There's some models that are good and others that are bad. Also depends on the previous owner/s either beating it or not maintaining.
I know it’s a bit newer, but I have a 2022 x3 m40i and absolutely love it. Has the B58 engine, no problems at all so far
Go older , then it will be a classic and not nearly as many issues
BMW M cars stopped being M cars after e9x, boyh by design and methodology. They used to be great
To answer your question, don’t get a BMW if maintenance costs are your primary concern. A motor isn’t the only thing that goes bad in a car, and the same engine in the e9x M3 is more reliable than most BMW motors ever made
Turn signals don't work on any of them so there's that
Dont get an M3. Sports cars with that much power are totally useless on public roads. Youll get a few thrills in the first 5k miles. Then you will realize you will go to jail very quickly if you keep doing that and will stop.
The M340s are plenty fast and fun. Much less annoying. Much more reliable and decent cars to live with.
BMWs are fun and reliable but expensive to maintain, once you start skipping on maintenance even more expensive stuff will break
Don't buy one unless you make over 90k
BMWs are fun when they work. They are dog shit vehicles that WILL break. Get one if you like doing your own work and being abused by those German engineers and their malicious design choices. Or you like paying 5-10x labour costs for afore mentioned design choices.
I’ve got a 2016 m240 (b58), 0 issues, 85k on the clock. Newer is better with bmw due to plastic used, good maintenance is essential.
It’s literally the reason you see cheap bmws that are just past their warranty everywhere. The maintenance costs are higher (it takes longer to perform some jobs, parts are more expensive), and if anything breaks you’re in the thousands pretty much immediately. You will also notice that mileage wise the cheaper ones are right before they need major service (you can get the service schedule from the owner’s manual online)
Just call up the service dept on a nearby bmw dealer and ask them to ballpark you a 50K mile service on a 2018 M3 oh and btw your friend has a 2016 that needs a 75K mile service and would like to have a quote on that too. Tell them that the shocks have never been replaced and he would like to know the cost on that too
if you do all the work yourself not so bad.
Yes. They are.
It's the fact they put PLASTIC in the timing chains is why I'll never own another BMW. Many companies did it around the same time period, but there's just no excuse for that. That and the maintenance is extensive and retarded expensive. I miss that 2003 6 speed 540. In any case, yes, you're going to pay out your ass for maintenance, because you're not going to Jose's garage, you're going to a 20+ year old established shop that specializes on bmw Porshe and race cars to take care of your baby. Go to the shop of your choice and ask them what are the most pain in the ass years.
I've owned two BMWs. A 318i and a 550 saloon. If I recall correctly.
Things go wrong on all cars. The trouble is the price of parts and service on a BMW. Parts on a used BMW can be had on Ebay motors for a fraction of OEM news parts. Service is expensive. That's the bad news. The good news is they are well engineered and the right parts fit.
I've also owned a Mercedes and the cost of parts and service on a Mercedes is much more shocking than a BMW. There's an old adage.
If you want to run with the big dogs, you can't pee like a puppy.
BMW’s are fine, perhaps not as bullet proof as they once were but that is the same with all manufacturers. Buying a car that age is likely to have some problems, it depends how well it has been looked after, mileage and a good dose of luck. Then again that applies at any age but issues are less likely when the car is younger or has been used less.
I would not say they are expensive to run at all. An M3 is also likely to have been driven hard, nothing wrong with that but it can add wear and tear.
Bmw is expensive to fix. I wouldn’t buy another one without the warranty. One day I woke up saw my car leaning. Air suspension failure, the leaning damaged the strut. 5 grand repair bill for something that happened while it was parked.
I would get a used corvette if I could do it all over again. But if you really love BMW and need one in your life. Go ahead and get it out your system. But if you can get one that is has warranty or you can extend the warranty like a certified pre-owned situation that’s best.
Although repairs can be more expensive (for obvious brand reasons) a friend of mine that owns an m430i only has to do oil change every x amount of miles and no problems being the car is stock and not tuned out crazy. Just make sure maintenance is good and you should be fine I believe
I have an e90 335xi, and to echo the sentiments of others here, it's the definition of love/hate. The driving experience is fantastic, power delivery is silky smooth and pulls beautifully, handles on rails, plus can fit 4 adults and still have a usable trunk, and bonus awd (plus snow tires make it mountain friendly).
The ownership experience on the other hand, has made me never want another bmw again. I can turn a wrench and am willing to do most simple jobs myself, but in 5 years I have had the expansion tank fail twice ($120x2, replaced myself), oil filter housing gasket replaced under extended warranty (which I paid $2500 extra for at purchase), new battery ($250, installed and coded myself), rear view mirror housing broke while adjusting ($35, a week after purchase) and again later from vibration, chipping the windshield too ($250 deductible, $900 glass if I paid cash), cabin air filter ($35), regular air filter ($30), currently in need of an oil pan gasket ($1500 quoted) a new transmission ($8000 quoted for a 6MT, no rebuilt kit available) and comfort access stopped working about a month ago (no idea, but new CA module is a few hundred). I also have the looming threat of rod bearings needing replacement since I'm over 100k mi, which is basically impossible to know without an oil analysis and if I catch it too late I could be looking at a new engine.
Basically, it's a perpetual ticking time bomb, and I can never feel confident that it won't surprise me with a new issue ranging from cheap to totalled. Prior to this, I had an Infiniti for 6 years and a Lexus for 7 years and never once had such feelings about either of them in regards to reliability.
It’s just jealousy. People talking shit because they don’t want you having nice things.
F82 M4 owned here. If I had the option to pay $3000 for maintenance/repair every year, I’d take it in a heartbeat.
Tires alone are $1600-$2000 a set after tax. Expect to replace them roughly every 20,000 miles depending on how you drive.
Bad if you dont follow/do the maintenance accordingly. IMO, BMWs are designed in a way that if you dont do proper maintenance something will go wrong.
Could someone just tell the a few of the more reliable models at
They're all pretty reliable if you do the correct maintenance, but you really have to either follow the service schedule or be ahead of it, it's still pricy to maintain them, but if you want an affordable rwd car with 4-5 seats, bmw is the way to go
Yes
There must be a reason why used BMWs are so cheap, think about it.
Oh yeah terrible. Nobody likes them. Get a Pontiac
Bmw= Big Money Waster
The ones with the B58 engines are fairly reliable. There's a few models that use the same engine as the Toyota supra which was approved by Toyota.
I own an M5 and grew up around BMWs since my neighbor is a master mechanic for them.
They’re amazing reliable cars. Just take care of the damn things and you’re fine. They’re finicky with maintenance. Follow them to a T and nothing will go wrong
My wife bought a 5 year old 3 series in 2010. We found a local mechanic who specialized in European car repair. He was really good. We took the car to him once a year for an oil change/checkup. The bill was usually around $1000 and he provided a page-long list of all the adjustments and maintenance he performed. 9 years later, she was still driving it and was very happy with it when it broke down. We took it to him and he could not identify the problem. We ended up towing to the dealership in Montgomery, AL. They were also having problems identifying the problem, charging us for parts and service along the way for fixes that didn’t work. During one conversation with the service manager, he shared that he would pull the computer module from another car to test it on ours to see if that was the problem. I stopped him and asked, “so if I come here for service later, there is a chance you will pull a part from my engine to test it on another car?” That sounded unethical to me. After 3 attempts and weeks of trial and error, the car was ready to roll again. Several thousand dollars. We ended up giving the car to one of our daughters who drove it a few more years before trading. It was a solid car and she still pines over it today, but I always had a feeling in the back of my mind that it would leave beside the road. She owned another 3 series since then. No issues. I drove a used X4 for a couple years as well. No issues, just expensive maintenance. We are confident and happy with our Hondas now.
Good for fun, bad for wallets.
I can only give you my similar experience with a 2017 mercedes c300. I loved it. However... A service was $900 AUD, B service was $700. Service was once yearly and alternated A then B. But if you wanted the computer diagnostic check run, $250 more, new battery $990, change transmission fluid $1900 etc etc etc. My service costs were approximately: Year 1: $2200 Year 2: $2800 Year 3: $4800 Year 4: $1900
This is with no mechanical repairs or issues, just general maintenance. The services were done at a licensed dealer for warranty purposes.
My old and very good mechanic: “BMW used to make great cars. Then, they started making everything under the hood out of plastic. That’s when they went to shit”
there aren’t any.
Former BMW owner here. Everything is just much more expensive than other cars. Particularly with the M class. If you can afford the maint go for it. Great car to drive.
BMWs are nice when they’re brand new other than that they are money pit. My grandmother gave me a 20 year-old three series and I gave it away. I don’t want it.
Even worse my friend
This writes like a teenager. If that’s the case, do you man. Sage advice is to get a car you can afford until you’re comfortably independent financially and not living with Mom and Dad. Because then you’re just fake flexing and everyone knows this but won’t tell it to your face.
And no one will actually give a shit if you drive an M or an entry level 3 series. See above.
This writes like a teenager. If that’s the case, do you man. Sage advice is to get a car you can afford until you’re comfortably independent financially and not living with Mom and Dad. Because then you’re just fake flexing and everyone knows this but won’t tell it to your face.
And no one will actually give a shit if you drive an M or an entry level 3 series. See above.
I previously owned an 07 BMW 328 and can tell you that parts broke on that car that just didn't break on other cars I've owned. I managed somehow to get the car to 115,000 miles but I spent a couple thousand on parts and the last issue was a mystery, engine kept shutting off in the middle of driving. Traded it in for a 2019 Honda.
I previously owned an 07 BMW 328 and can tell you that parts broke on that car that just didn't break on other cars I've owned. I managed somehow to get the car to 115,000 miles but I spent a couple thousand on parts and the last issue was a mystery, engine kept shutting off in the middle of driving. Traded it in for a 2019 Honda.
Although it's not a M3 I own a 2010 335d and highly recommend it. It gets great mileage and is quick as hell. When they are tuned and deleted they will usually take M3s.
You have two problems here.
You haven’t done enough research, there’s a HUGE difference between the two generations of M3 you’re looking at. One of those cars requires routine rod bearing work every 60k miles that’s $3k a pop if you find a shop that knows how to do it quickly and usually more.
If people are telling you that you can’t afford it, you should listen.
BMWs aren’t that bad, particularly the last few years they’ve been pretty high on the consumer reports ranking. The problem with BMWs isn’t that they’re unreliable, it’s that parts and labor are expensive as fuck and it takes a lot to stay on top of it. When it’s an M car it’s twice as bad. OEM rotors in an F80 M3 are $350 a pop. The battery is nearly $1000. When you don’t keep up with it, these cars suck.
If you want a reliable BMW that’s not too expensive to operate you’ll need to stay away from M cars and do research. Anything with a B58 or B48 is usually pretty solid.
M cars are great, I love them personally but everything is expensive and you need to be on top of maintenance. If getting hit with a
I know 2 things, they require an ass load of maintenance when they start getting older and that maintenance is fucking expensive. How expensive? My buddy and I just got our brakes done both of us went to the dealer to do it. I drive a 17 Outback and he’s got a BMW 3 series. For both front and rear I was charged $1200, for just the front he paid $1600.
Yes
I just hit 41k trouble free daily driven miles on my F87 M2c.
People are talking about things they have zero experience with.
I have a 2012 135i manual convertible.
I've owned it since new.
At 75k miles it still runs great but the maintenance and repair costs have been quite high.
In other words its very expensive to fix and it breaks way more than it should.
I love the car but I would feel guilty selling it to someone that either didn't have plenty of money to maintain it or the ability to work on it themselves. I'm sure some HS or college student would love it but unless they have the skills to work on it themselves no way they should buy it, unless they had rich parents.
This is why German cars are very affordable once they get to be 4+ years old. The repair and maintenance bills are horrible,
2010 is much different from 2018. If you buy a 15 year old M3 it’s going to require a lot more maintenance. People sell them around that time literally because of it. You’d be better off with a used m340i and save money. Get one with some warranty left.