www.albanyherald.com/news/5-members-of-a-georgia-family-returning-from-a-baseball-tournament-are-dead-after-a/article_c035f7f3-2b43-59ca-b35c-a575a46da271.html
5 members of a Georgia family returning from a baseball tournament are dead after a plane crash in upstate New York
I’m from that area and have seen pics of the plan on local FB posts. Those storms that come in that are are quick and strong.
Well, I would like to imagine that the plane went down quickly and none of them suffered!
Perhaps the storm wasn't forecasted?
It was. Pretty much had been on and off storms for several days. Even to the point of tornado warnings through that region east into Massachusetts.
Every person with a phone has their local radar available at a touch.
Ya it was, this was “get home itis,” aka shit decision making by the pilot.
It was, I was supposed to fly through the area that day and a lot of commercial flights were delayed or cancelled. There were ground stops at most airports in the area including Boston and Newark all afternoon
Probably more like cast away.
12 year old JR hit a grand slam in his last baseball game. 😢
Isn't this beyond tragic?! :(
It's incredibly sad. The only solace is the family died together. The parents don't have to grieve the loss of their children and the children don't have to grieve for and grow up without their parents.
Yes, I do feel that way about the kids and their parents, but, and I don't know for certain, I'm sure they have other family members....
I'm sure there are other family members, but at least it wasn’t the immediate family since they died together. My mother dying was so distressing that it killed my grandmother.
Edit: typos
Well, we don't know if the pilot's wife is still alive? Or the parents of the husband? Or any siblings of the couple? They are still immediate family members in my view. BUT, I agree with everyone that IF the couple had lost their kids, or the kids had lost their parents, they would be left with this tragedy. And, I don't know what "still mf" means, but I'm sorry about your grandmother:(
The fathers sister actually posted on TikTok speaking on the tragedy and her anxiety/fear about the media. She seemed extremely distressed obviously considering the terrible pain her family is going through. I can’t imagine having to continue life after something so awful happens to such a big chunk of your family unit. My heart breaks for her.
I'm sure there are other family members and I feel for them. They must be devastated.
Yes, I'm sure about that.....:(
Should have flown commercial
Roger Beggs, 76; Laura Van Epps, 43; Ryan Van Epps, 42; James R. Van Epps, 12; and Harrison Van Epps, 10, were all returning to Georgia from Cooperstown, New York, where the family had been for a baseball tournament
Sad. It always breaks my heart when kids die. There’s this loss of potential that it brings. It's impossible to say what their life would've been and the impact they would have on others who now will never know.
The article doesn't mention any other fatalities and says the plane was a single-engine Piper Malibu Mirage. I don't know planes at all and I could be talking out of my ass here, but I wonder if one of the family members was piloting it.
Grandpa Roger was the pilot.
That makes sense. Such a tragic event.
It is for sure. That said, there is zero chance that I'm getting in a single engine plane with a 76-year-old pilot.
I've seen enough stories about small planes crashing to never want to get into one, no matter the pilot's age.
My mother was in a small plane crash. Pilot and copilot (married) got into a fight while landing. (Ironically, it was something over the landing they were fighting about) Plane ended up landing on its nose and flipping.
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Are you saying something about that plane crash aroused your parents?
I’ve got 2200 hours in single engine planes. 90%+ has been older than 40 years old. Many of those hours are in aircraft older than 60 years old. They are as safe as you and the pilot make them. Much like motorcycles.
True, but I don't ride motorcycles either.
That’s fair! It’s not for everyone. I will say, I find small planes more fun than big planes. You can find an instructor and go fly a small plane, you won’t get to sit up front let alone drive the bus in a big plane.
LOL comparing them to motorcycles is not reassuring. And it’s blatantly false. Motorcycles ridden by the best driver (?) in the world can still get smeared into paste by a drunk person on the highway. At least planes are less susceptible to this.
This is interesting. Apparently 19 times more likely to die in a privately owned aircraft than on the roads. Commercial flight is far safer though.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/198/how-dangerous-is-flying-in-a-single-engine-plane
Well small plane equivalent of that would be flying into unexpected weather. If the pilot doesn't have instrument rating you better start praying regardless of age. 178 seconds to live
They're not called "donorcycles" for nothing.
Motorcycles are only safe when they are in the garage.
You're actually 1/6 as likely to get in an accident in a private plane as you are a car on a per mile basis. Obviously those crashes are much more likely to be fatal but it still works out to planes only having about 2x the fatality rate per mile compared to cars.
Your perception gets skewed because you hear about every plane crash. If this family died in a car accident it would only hit local news
My dad was a private pilot. He quit flying at 70 due to the super high cost of life insurance if he continued to fly past that age. As much as he loved flying and had confidence in his skills, he knew there was a reason for the rate increase. He did continue to ride his motorcycle to the age of 80, though.
Light twins are even less safe
I mean, they do keep raising the mandatory retirement age for pilots...
And it's 9 years younger than this guy was, and that's for commercial pilots. There is no age limit for private pilots.
True, but at least commercial airline pilots have to go through an annual flight physical and maintain their medical clearance.
Wait till you hear about the US 2024 presidential election
Oh fuck. These amateur pilots seem to kill their families or themselves at alarming rates. And 76 is kinda old to be driving a car, let alone flying a plane.
Hopefully he died peacefully in his sleep.
And not…
And there in lies the problem
I'm good on small planes
Plenty of stories of thunderstorms downing these types of planes. I would hope they get radar updates and take every opportunity to avoid or turn around to wait it out.
Pipers are small planes. There is a museum about them not far from where I live. Sounds like Grandpa had one and was piloting.
I’ll never set foot in a small airplane like they were in. They’re orders of magnitude more dangerous than commercial flying. Same with helicopters. They may seem fun or romantic, but they are not nearly as safe as normal air travel.
To be fair literally every other form of transport including walking is orders of magnitude more dangerous than commercial aviation. Private planes have 1/6 the accident rate and only 2x the fatality rate per mile compared to cars.
and only 2x the fatality rate per mile
And that's while traveling a whole lot faster, so the per hour rate would likely favor the plane
It’s a single engine piston airplane. One of the nicest you can get in that class since it’s pressurized. That said, it is a 6 seater and is used for general aviation. I don’t know the pilots circumstances, but I’m assuming he was a somewhat competent pilot since it was a $1m airplane and he was 76 years old.
I live in the town they took off from. Very, very small airport and never in a million years would I think that a plane would fly in or out from Georgia. I can tell that the weather that ay was terrible and there were reports of wind sheer and lightning in the area
About an hour south of there, there was a wind sheer so bad that a woman died from a tree falling on her trailer.
Exactly, they probably never should have taken off. Who makes the decisions?
9/10 times it's this bad weather that was ignored. the 10th time it's an overloading/weight distribution problem.
According to some, it’s a medical condition known as “get-there-itis.” Kobe Bryant is the most well known victim, but there are others. It causes an inability to accurately assess risk.
I honestly don't understand why anyone flies these kinds of flights rather than just traveling commercially.
I have a friend who is a doctor and flies recreationally, he's probably the smartest guy I personally know and has never had anything happen that would make me think he's not an excellent pilot. But I would never fly with him.
A lot of families are generational hobby pilots. It’s a normal thing for them and they do it all the time. They’re very desensitized to the risk (which may not be that high, I’m genuinely not sure)
It’s high-ish. Similar to riding a motorcycle during the daytime, sober.
It’s also a hobby where the risks are very Pilot dependent. Most GA crashes are pilot error, many in a perfectly functional airplane. The most common single cause is probably lack of weather awareness/planning.
Similar to skydiving. <30% of fatalities are equipment related. And when you include injuries it skew even more towards being operator error as the cause.
Weather is one of the least common causes of crashes in GA. Low speed low altitude maneuvers are the most common so anything in the landing and takeoff phase of flight. 97% of aviation accidents are on clear days
Yep, I get that and it's a fun thing for them. And just flying around for fun, I totally get.
What's harder for me to understand are trips like the one in the article taking a small plane halfway across the country. From everything I've heard, it seems like a lot more hassle than just going to the airport as a passenger, and a lot more can go wrong as far as diversions, weather, etc. Statistically it's many times more dangerous than flying commercial, and on top of that it's way more expensive when all the costs are tallied.
Basically there isn't a single thing about it that isn't better on a commercial flight so it baffles me why people do it.
I’ve flown in little private planes and it’s pull up to the airport, climb out, climb in the plane and leave. It’s so awesome.
This is a massive advantage, coupled with being able to fly directly from one place to another. At work, I’ve flown a couple of small charter flights and my boss had a private plane for a couple of years. He eventually sold it because he couldn’t justify the cost, but the convenience was amazing for regional trips, especially if you’re flying from one smaller city to another.
Commercial version: Wake up early, drive to airport, go through security, wait an hour, fly to hub, wait another hour or two, fly again, drive to meeting, repeat process in reverse and get home late (or even have to stay over and fly back the next day, depending on how flights shook out).
Private/charter version: Get to airport 15 min before flight. Fly directly to FPO near meeting location, drive to meeting, do same in reverse and sometimes be back in time for lunch.
I know it sucks for the planet, but I completely get why rich people fly private.
Yeah its actually a lot LESS hassle
My buddy’s family are plane people and he took me up one day too. We flew over my house and waved at my mom. My big takeaway was people in planes can see you ridiculously well when you’re just chilling in your backyard. Less naked sunbathing.
Let me put it this way: is there a different between sitting in a living room on two couches talking with your family and sitting on a couple benches at a train station talking with your family? Is there a difference between a car journey with your family and a public bus journey with your family? There are definitely differences, and those differences might not be very significant to you, but they might be significant to other people.
Beyond this, the difference between travelling in a light aircraft and a commercial airliner is as big as the difference between travelling in a car and on a motorcycle. You may dislike the danger and discomfort and noise (etc.) of a motorcycle compared to a car, but not everyone does.
You can say "it is way better on a commercial flight" but what you are really saying is "for all the things that I value, a commercial flight is better". Some people care about different things . Having some experience of both, I would choose a small 10 hour flight with just friends and family over a 6 hour flight on a commercial airline 10 times out of 10. But that is shows that we value different things.
One wrinkle is that it is very hard to actually have casual conversation in a single engine plane.
A lot of your examples are not just intimate vs public, but quiet vs loud.
Some people may prefer the thrill of a motorcycle compared to safer transportation methods. But they don't generally strap two kids onto it with them.
Kids aren't capable of making a judgment call on danger levels, and aren't able to make the choice because their guardians make choices for them. That's where there is a big difference between your various analogies and the tragic story of this family.
Well, it is definitely not as big a difference as you are implying. General aviation (that is, private planes) are involved in about 6 times fewer accidents per mile than cars are. That alone is deceptive though since somewhere around 10 percent of GA accidents involve fatalities, whereas only about 1 percent of automobile accidents do. So adjusting for that, fatal accidents are more likely to occur per mile traveled in private aircraft than in cars, but only by a little less than 2x. To put that 2x number in perspective, the fatal accident rate for driving in Arizona is more than 2x the rate in Minnesota. It can vary that much just state to state. It is a very small difference. Compare that to the often-cited motorcycle statistic of 28x more likely to be involved in a fatal crash (which, to be perfectly honest, is also not even that crazy an increase in absolute terms) . In terms of absolute safety, flying in a private aircraft, while it is wildly more dangerous than flying commercially, is still pretty comparable to driving a car. But we don't vilify people choosing to drive their kids to their vacation rather than fly there. And we certainly all make objectively more impactful negative decisions about safety all the time without even realizing it.
For me, my family’s lives have the greatest value, and the dramatic increase in risk in order to have the other stuff isn’t worth it.
Edit: truly amazing that this is a controversial statement lol Not sure where the assumption of judgment comes from.
I mean you said your family's lives have the greatest value and you're directly questioning why you would expose your family to greater threat of death from flying this way, implying they dont value their family. That's pretty judgemental.
Do you ever drive your family members around? Are you aware that professional drivers and public transit have a lower rate of crashes per mile than the average driver? Why wouldn't you hire one then, considering driving them around is many, many, many times more dangerous than flying them around?
Sorry, but I don’t accept that stating my opinion on something is being judgmental of anyone else. My comment directly replied to what they were saying, and made no comment on how I felt about their perspective.
If they’re confident that their view of things doesn’t put their family at any more risk, or that that risk is worthwhile, why not just say so? Instead, they started worrying about what I think and defending themselves against an accusation that didn’t exist. I think that probably says a lot more about how they really feel.
And your final paragraph tries to equate things that clearly aren’t the same, so I’m going to ignore it. Have a nice day.
OK, so you are going to use that to judge anyone that doesn't make exactly the choices about safety that you make?
I stated my values. If you feel like that’s a judgment on you or others, I would take some time and think about that.
It is almost as though "for me, my family's lives have the greatest value" is a way of stating that you think others choices mean they don't value their family's safety. Don't be an ass and pretend that is not what that statement implies.
The nearest commercial airports from Oneonta are Albany or Syracuse, each over 90 minutes away with a lead foot.
There are many places that have a GA airport that are 90 minutes+ from the nearest commercial airport.
Seems pretty high to me! Look at all these crashes...
It's really fun to pilot an aircraft and this method takes you virtually door to door. There are tiny airports all throughout the country and they all have free/low cost cars to use for visitors flying in. The flight is probably faster than the wait between arriving to a normal airport and actually boarding and the plane.
True, but the odds of being in a commercial plane crash are very low. The odds of being in a small-plane crash are significantly higher.
Don't forget the wait for the coroner.
On a large, commercial airliner, fewer than 0.01 fatalities per 100,000 hours flying occur. On private aviation craft, however, that ratio jumps to more than 2.3 fatalities per 100,000 hours flown.
Been in bad situation on civil, commercial, and military rotary wing aircraft. I'll stick with commercial.
Yet when you compare it to driving there's 1/6 the accident rate per mile driven. Commercial aviation is just incredibly safe.
The rate jumps because of the change in pilot. Your commercial airline pilots are vetted and trained much better usually than your random private pilot. It has thing to do with the plane itself.
I mean, there are a lot factors that entirely are caused by the plane itself. Navigation, radar, automation, multiple engines, pilot rest, being a few. But a larger factor is the weather. A commercial jet can fly through some serious weather and come out the other side. They can fly higher, above a large chunk of the weather. Your standard prop GA is typically around 10k feet max.
Also a commercial plane can go higher in altitude to get out of airstreams that can greatly impact flights. Small single engines can't get up that high without being roughed up by the multiple wind and air layers that can cause issues, including temperature issues for poorly insulated light weight planes.
So many factors to attribute to small planes. Even getting into a commercial planes wake can plummet them.
Yes and the pilot is the one who chooses to fly into the weather. The plane won't do that. All of those decisions see till come down to the pilot. If the weather is too bad for your type of aircraft to fly into then you don't fly into it. It's that simple. And if you encounter it enroute and you can't get around you either turn around or land at the nearest safe airfield to wait it out.
Wait they have cars for you to use? For what? For how long?
Some rich people don’t even travel commercially together, just in case of a plane crash at least some of them would survive.
It’s a policy at lots of companies.
And in politics.
The Bonanza is literally nicknamed The Doctor Killer.
TBH a huge part of the reason I have flight anxiety is the unknowns associated with other people (fellow passengers, pilots). Add to that the stress of being in an airport, spending hours before the flight traveling and dealing with security, etc. If I had a trusted friend or relative with a private plane I’d probably be quick to take them up on their offer of transportation.
I acknowledge how irrational everything above is. I know statistically how safe flying commercially is, and that small aircraft are more likely to have accidents. Phobias tho 🤷♂️
I acknowledge how irrational everything above is. I know statistically how safe flying commercially is, and that small aircraft are more likely to have accidents. Phobias tho 🤷♂️
I hate the lack of control, and I've honestly not found a single thing I can take to deal with it. Honestly, if I could just be unconscious for the flight I'd be so much happier.
I have found that trick: klonopin
Odd question, but how are you on trains? Do you feel the same feelings around the lack of control? To add to this, does the feeling change knowing if it’s a computer or person in control. For example, would you feel happier on an automated shuttle vs a human controlled one? Do you feel better on a rollercoaster knowing it’s all automated, or would you prefer a roller coaster driver?
I can relate. I wont even ride on public transportation because it's someone I do not know in control. I have not flown in 6 years and I have a flight coming up in the Fall. I am hoping to meet with a doctor for some medication. I wish I didn't have such anxiety for things like you said which are statistically safe.
Do you take anti anxiety meds before you drive? It's much much much more dangerous than flying. And you aren't in control of the cars or the people diving around you.
Oh no, I do not have anxiety when I am in control or others I know are in control. It's when someone I do not know is doing the flying/driving.
But there’s a fuckload of other people in control of their vehicles
I’d much rather be on a bus or something where some dipshit t-boning me is way less likely to result in me getting killed or injured
That’s why trains are champ
Damn. I find all of that incredibly relaxing. I can’t even sleep the night before because of the excitement
Most of these are more convenient. Private pilots can board their plane with zero wait, no need for TSA, and can Fly direct short range flights that are faster than car or commercial planes that are on set schedules. It can also be relatively cheap. The planes fuel for the trip maybe $80, compared to 5 tickets on commercial flight being $400. It also means being more comfortable and less likely to act civil in public. You can be your true self around family and not socially reserved around strangers. So the comfort is far higher and preferred.
It's all the same reasons people drive their own cars rather than take a commercial bus.
I knew a guy who had a small plane who would fly from Seattle to Eugene, a 5 hour drive done in a plane in a third of the time. And he said you don't have to pay fees at the receive airport, just park it, go do your business and return and fly home. He said it's faster, easy to get around, and sometimes he'd pickup passengers to cover his costs for trips.
He literally would fly someone to Eugene for $50, then go to the Olympic track and field trials, and then pickup someone and fly them back to Seattle for $50. Would cover all his costs.
That’s cool as shit
The could just but a Cirrus SR22 or Cirrus Vision Jet. They both have built in parachutes…. If you want to be rich do it with a parachute.
My wifes obgyn died while flying her plane.
Is it sad that my first thought was at least they were together? Horrific, but better than the kids losing their parents or even worse, the parents losing both kids.
I thought the same when I first read about it this morning! But, I my heart breaks for any other family members:(
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So much tragedy in this world!! I just did a very quick search, and the below according to Wiki. And, the way of grieving, especially intense grief, I imagine she felt a lot of survivor's guilt? Perhaps you can confirm. And, yes, I agree about THIS family, though their extended family, I can't imagine their shock and grief....
"How did Sonali Deraniyagala survive?The tsunami carried her two miles inland and she was able to survive by clinging to a tree branch. She reportedly suffered unconsciousness and internal bleeding. Following the tsunami, she was taken to her aunt's house in Colombo."
It's sad, but these single-engine aircraft seem to crash all the damn time.
Took an air crash survival course once. They presented rough stats, such as commercial jet travel is about 4 times safer than driving, commercial single engine travel is about the same as driving, riding in your buddy’s single engine plane is about 4 times more dangerous than driving. I may be recalling this a bit wrong, but that’s the general idea.
One of my fav youtube channels analyses and teaches other pilots what went wrong.
Great recommendation, I watched a few. Highly informative!
That link lists every accident, for every aircraft type, in the world. Not exactly useful numbers when talking about single engine aircraft.
Why? There's a filter on the left.
Nice. Hit em with the filter. This is interesting information thank you for the link.
Unbelievable, and I didn't realize so many. In fact, I just looked this up which seems to be an understatement?
"Weather or pilot malfunction lead the reasons for why small planes crash, making it about three times more dangerous than commercial aviation.Jan 29, 2024" EDITED TO ADD: This information, I found, HAS to be WRONG so please ignore!!
This right here is why I train more than the FAA requires. If I’m the most dangerous part of the equation flying my family around in my single engine airplane, then how best can I manage this risk? What separates me from airline pilots is training. They train all the time. We private pilots only have to go up with an instructor once every 2 years. To fly on instruments, we have to log 6 approaches every 6 months. Neither is enough to be proficient and safe. So I hire an instructor and train regularly. I go to safety meetings with fellow pilots where we discuss accidents and what went wrong. We try to always be learning and training and always have an out.
Good for you! Also, the information I posted about small planes crashing 3x more than commercial planes HAS to be wrong! According to the database shared by someone else, it's clearly wrong. Stay safe and keep training! You're doing it right:)
Three times!? That doesn't sound right. I assume it's way more than that when you count number of incidents instead of fatalities.
Because of course on the extremely rare event that a commercial jet goes down, a couple of hundred people would die instead of 5.
So, you'd need 40 small aircraft crashes to equal one commercial jet crash. But even with that handicap it's still three times more dangerous.
Damn!
I was just trying to find different statistics, but it's nearly impossible to do that without spending what feels like days to get the right information!! :( BUT, let's ignore what I posted! BECAUSE the information and website YOU shared lists a record of crashes, and just eyeballing it one can see it is WAY more than 3x!
Single Engine may not have anything to do with it, age of pilot may not have anything to do with it, weather may not have anything to do with it…. We won’t know until the report is done. But flying GA around thunderstorms doesn’t usually end well. Though it might even be special disorientation…
A recent news report spoke about how climate change is causing more severe turbulence that is basically invisible. I wonder if this going to become a greater problem as time goes on.
It's always disorientation.
The pilot gets in a cloud and gets themselves sideways or even upside down. They see the altimeter indicating rapid descent so they pull on the stick. But they're not right-side up so that exacerbates the problem.
I'd be curious to know if the pilot was IFR trained.
Exactly, we need to wait until they further investigate.
I wonder how many people died in car crashes the same hour.
so, assuming she is still living, some poor grandma just lost her husband, a child, and her grandchildren :(
That poor grandmother lost her husband, children and grandkids. I cannot imagine that grief.
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Most people drive "dangerous" cars because we have no choice though. I'd compare this to taking a motorcycle with no helmet compared to a car. They made a risky choice and it cost them their lives.
Rich people died doing rich people stuff its just another day
I mostly feel bad for the kids, they don't know any better. But an adult should know the risks of these types of planes, especially one being flown by someone old enough to be the president.
Still human beings with hopes and dreams
The Empathy in you is really strong 💪
You don't need to be rich to have a pilot's license. And if it was grandpa's plane it was likely purchased in an era when they were reasonably affordable, too
What's truly sad is that with YOUR thinking, you will never know true happiness or have peace of mind. Very sad in my view!
In 1999 a couple died near Socorro, NM when their small plane encountered a series of towering cumulus clouds. It was in July. Basically they flew into a developing maze of these towering and growing clouds. I was in the media and covered the story. FAA on site said it was a high altitude wing separation. I asked how they knew. The fuselage with the couple were in one spot, the wing section, still sort of undamaged was found a half mile away. They had a good 15-20 seconds of “oh shit” as they saw the dirt, sage brush and pinion pine trees getting closer and closer.
Sad, tragic but I’m sorry. Flying on those small planes It’s just asking for trouble.
Not really. Flying small planes into thunderstorms is asking for trouble. They don’t just crash themselves.
General aviation has 1/6 the accident rate of cars per mile.
Don’t fly with people who pilot their own planes……it’s simply too dangerous.
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I thought this article had been rejected. Here's a little more information:
"A Georgia family killed in a plane crash Sunday in Delaware County likely experienced rain and turbulence as a series of summer thunderstorms moved into the flight path, officials say."