www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-boxes-jack-smith-documents-b2568603.html
Prosecutors release new photos of ‘highly guarded secrets’ in messy boxes at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago
DiscussionUnsecured servers right? Then we find out Trump demanded to keep his blackberries/private phones, warned by the secret service or security apparatus it was a security risk. Then does official presidential business on them.
Then we find out Kushner wasn’t cleared for the clearance he needed for his job, and him and ivanka also had unsecured phones.
But that’s ok apparently…..
Great sources! I do remember when the Hillary stuff was going on, it was reported essentially the same exact thing occurred in the George Bush presidency, and to my understanding was not malicious, more of “older people not fully understanding technology” using unsecured systems.
But of course, that wasn’t reported on Fox News.
Another weird thing; in 2012, Hillary Clinton gave an impassioned speech on the worlds stage (might have been the UN Assembly, or international security committee), about Putin, his aims, and threat to the west, she essentially laid out his plans bit by bit, predicted incursions into Crimea, and his aims to disrupt the west.
You can correlate the explosion of online anti-Hillary rhetoric and memes to shortly after this speech, coincident with Trumps ire towards her as well.
I know correlation is not causation, but thought that was interesting considering how much they traced the memes and rhetoric of Hillary back to the IRA.
The rabbit hole goes DEEP.
It was partially Colin Powell's advice that lead Hillary to set up the private server.
No, using a personal email server to send and receive classified documents. That’s an extremely big no-no.
Hillary's team smashed cellphones in a parking lot with hammers
Is having classified documents on her own email server she was running so she could avoid FOIA requests really a lesser offense?
Clinton's server and the classified documents on it are a bit overblown. Bad, yes. Should not have happened. However, the vast majority of what the FBI found was classified were items that were not classified at the time or were classified but common knowledge (us drone strikes predominantly, one of the 'classified' documents was a newspaper article about the drone strike program). In his testimony to Congress, Comey said there were only 3 emails that had a classified marking but two of them were thought to be labeled in error and did not actually contain classified information.
Regardless of how innocuous the documents might have been or if they were not classified at the time the emails were sent measures should have been taken to safeguard the information. Bad precedent was set when the Bush Admin allowed Rice and Powell to use their own private servers during their time as cabinet officials.
However, the vast majority of what the FBI found
uhhh didn't she delete a lot of them?
Yes, but they recovered them through other accounts (other people on the email, from her devices and such) and analyzing the servers/drives: https://www.vox.com/2016/7/5/12101886/how-fbi-hillary-clinton-email
Deleting emails is allowed, which is why she wasn't charged with obstruction. Assuming that the deleted emails were classified wouldn't do well in court.
Yes
Do you think a FOIA request on the documents in those boxes would ever succeed?
How many FOIA requests on classified documents like this go through?
Should she have just printed the documents,wiped the hard drives, and kept the hard copies in a messy closets instead? Why would that be preferable?
Edit: several of trumps "torn up discarded documents" were in those boxes. Isn't it likely that they were full of things they didn't want FOIAd? But since they weren't emails, I'm told by some, that it's different.
And on the left if you give Clinton a pass. Jail for all.
Well, maybe not Biden. In fairness the government gave Trump a chance to produce all the documents, but he didn’t, and that’s the only reason they are prosecuting. Biden immediately invited them to search for anything they needed.
Glad we can see the complete (lack of) principles on the right
Maybe you can refresh my memory, but was the left calling for Hillary to be prosecuted as they are with Trump today?
Maybe you can refresh my memory, but was the left calling for Hillary to be prosecuted as they are with Trump today?
Well no, but that’s because Hillary didn’t commit the same crimes that Trump is being charged with? Hillary didn’t lie directly to the Feds about her knowingly withholding classified documents, falsely sign an affidavit saying he had no more classified documents, and didn’t show off those classified documents to random people while bragging about how they’re illegal for him to have after all of this.
Hey, now. One of those "random people" was (allegedly) Kid Rock.
More to the point, yes. If Trump had complied with NARA from the jump, this wouldn't be happening. It's not that Democrats are making up charges to prosecute Trump, he just makes himself very prosecutable.
I think you need more than a refresher if you're conflating these two things. Whatever source of information is leading you.to think they are the same is misleading you.
Do they have to be “the same”?
If “our guy” does something wrong, it’s a nothingburger. If “your guy” does something wrong, he needs to be prosecuted to the extent of the law. But we’re not being hypocritical, because the wrong thing our guy did is “not the same” as the wrong thing your guy did.
The echochambers people create in their life allow them to believe something their side did wasn't as bad. Where imo I want the person I support to be geld to a higher standard than the opponent.
but was the left calling for Hillary to be prosecuted as they are with Trump today?
At various times, especially among Bernie supporters, sure. But considering the Director of the FBI came out and said that no reasonable prosecutor would pursue charges eight years ago, it became a settled issue.
She had a completely insecure server and we still have no idea who got access to it. The scandal erupted again when her emails were found on Anthony Wiener’s laptop when he was caught sexting a minor.
Those emails were also the exact same emails the FBI has already seen and effectively shrugged at in terms of prosecution. That same FBI released a letter that Republicans leaked days before the election that framed the finding as new emails they uncovered and it likely changed the election result despite being zero new information.
You are underrating the scandal, which dragged in a lot of Democrats, including Obama. He claimed he only learned about it from the news, when it turns out he’d been emailing her at a non government email address.
Clinton also claimed that she had never sent classified information through her private server, which turned out to be a lie.
Democrats were mad at her for dragging them into a controversy that dripped out day after day.
They could've found pictures of him handing the documents to Putin himself and it wouldn't make a smidge of difference
What do you mean?
The Republican establishment has been entirely co-opted by Trump and there’s no crime or vile act that he could openly commit that would lead to them no longer supporting him. They’re terrified of the same conspiracy addled and foaming at the mouth electorate that they’ve cultivated for decades, and there’s no moral compass left, if there ever was one.
It doesn't matter how insecure the documents were, it's not going to impact his support. His supporters do not care if he broke the law
It’s crazy to me that is this is essentially why they wanted to lock up Hilary.
Worse than Hillary on almost every level. I am pretty sure Hillary did not have nuclear secrets.
Literally every level. Anyone who takes a moment to look into the specifics of what Trump did compared to Hillary is aware of this fact.
almost every level.
Every level
It’s not why. It’s just what they said the reason was.
There are some differences. First up, you didn't need to evade the Secret Service to acquire Hillary's classified docs.
She deleted them all, didn't she?
She didn't, no. There was an IT person who was tasked with deleting personal emails according to a schedule. Personal emails are allowed to be deleted.
So, there's an investigation into classified documents being stored in a private server, the person who owns the server directs someone to delete the data off that server, and that's not obstructing an investigation into what classified data might have been on that server?
the person who owns the server directs someone to delete the data off that server, and that's not obstructing an investigation
When the instruction was made completely legally well before the investigation ever happened, yes. It was a standing order to delete personal emails, the IT person testified that they hadn't been doing their job and panicked after seeing the subpoena. The IT person broke the law, but was given immunity in order to provide any evidence that would also incriminate Clinton, but the FBI didn't find anything that showed that Clinton committed any crime.
Further, a near majority of deleted emails were recovered, the FBI went through them and found no evidence that work-related emails were deleted.
FBI recovered all of the emails between other devices with those emails and recovering them from the server as the data was still there (just not the email program) according to Comey and the FBI's report to Congress.
After she was told to preserve evidence, yes.
Seems like text book obstruction, but what do I know.
It's literally what they're going after Trump for.
They're going after Trump for mishandling classified docs AND obstruction.
They went after Hillary for neither of those and she was clearly guilty of both as well.
The case is going nowhere as long as the federal judge overseeing the case continues to run interference.
You could say the same about Biden and his documents
You could say it. It wouldn't be accurate, but you could certainly say it
I'll say it. The dems had their chance to condemn Joe Biden for illegally hoarding classified docs for decades and sharing them with his ghost writer. They don't seem to care who wandered in and out of Joe's garage when our nation's secrets were in there. It seems to not make a smidge of difference. It's a bit like Hillary's illegal email server. They are very happy to downplay that too, but somehow this Trump case gives them the vapors.
Not sure if you've been following the news, or the general public sentiment on Biden... But it's awful. He is absolutely not liked by dems at all. There are constant calls for him to drop out. Every poll says Biden votes are against Trump and not for Biden. I bet you couldn't find a single person on this sub that thinks Biden is their top option for president. Contrast this with republican support for Trump which is overwhelming as we just saw in the republican primary. Republicans could've had anyone in the country and they resounding said "we want Trump. He is absolutely the best person for the job"
We could pretend none of what I just said is true. Fine. The cases are vastly different. Trump willfully kept the docs, obstructed the investigation into them, and ignored requests to return them. Very different from Biden.
- As for Hillary, maybe I'm misremembering so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe she's running for president? So I'm not sure how that could be relevant at all? I'll tell you what, just to be safe: I won't vote for her. But to play along for fun, Trump's state department looked into it and cleared her of wrongdoing, so it's all good. I'm sure you'll be happy to hear that.
I think Biden's done a good job. I like him.
That's not my point. My point is if you could pick anyone to be the president in 2024, would it be Joseph R Biden?
I mean there might be someone or many people who would be better, but they are not running. That's the case in any election.
Yeah that's my point. That's not the case with MAGA and Trump. They want Trump above anyone else. If they could pick anyone they'd pick Trump. We just saw it with the republican primary
True. Probably many Republicans would be beating Biden soundly in the polls. Trump was who they wanted.
- We could pretend none of what I just said is true. Fine. The cases are vastly different. Trump willfully kept the docs, obstructed the investigation into them, and ignored requests to return them. Very different from Biden.
This is only one part of the crime though, is it not? Having the classified docs is one criminal act, and refusing to give them back is the other, no?
So, while you're correct that Trump obstructed attempts to recover them and Biden did not, they are both equally guilty of the first crime and no amount of obstruction or willfulness seems to change that, no?
Sure. I have no doubt Biden had them. And I care. I don't like it. I have no interest in voting for Biden. Unfortunately I have even less interest in a Trump presidency so I don't have any other option.
My point was this is a stark difference from Trump's base where this doesn't impact their support. They WANT to vote for Trump. That's the big difference. They don't care that he did it. I care that Biden did it. And according to the polls I'm in the majority with democrats that would love to be able to not vote for Biden.
I think a lot of it is what his supporters believe is political targeting.
Hillary broke the law, Biden broke the law, neither was prosecuted. And, the reality is, the majority of Biden supporters probably don't care about his mishandling of classified docs, they just aren't happy with his performance as president and the fact he struggles to string sentences together which they believe makes it more likely he will lose to Trump.
But this takes me back to my original point that they could have him on video giving the documents to Putin. They don't actually care if it's political targeting or legitimate. They watched him in real time try to overthrow an election and didn't care.
They can feel however they want, there's been plenty of write ups about how Biden's and Hilary's cases are different.
There are a multitude of reasons why Biden supporters are unhappy with Biden. But to say that it wouldn't make a difference if Biden was caught giving classified documents to our enemy is plain wrong. Which is what my original comment was.
We're straying from my point which is that Trump could literally be caught on tape giving secrets to Putin and his supporters would still support him. Biden would instantly be removed as the Democratic nominee if that happened, I'd say lose support but he has almost none.
But this takes me back to my original point that they could have him on video giving the documents to Putin. They don't actually care if it's political targeting or legitimate. They watched him in real time try to overthrow an election and didn't care.
Well, this is pure speculation, and seems more like a caricature of what the left thinks about Trump supporters than what they actually think.
I know a lot of folks that support Trump and do not like him, they just think the same thing Biden supporters think, which is that he's not as bad for the country policy wise as the other guy.
It's fine though, we don't have to agree on any of these points, it's just politics.
So, while you're correct that Trump obstructed attempts to recover them and Biden did not, they are both equally guilty of the first crime and no amount of obstruction or willfulness seems to change that, no?
And it's not very surprising that prosecutors would treat the circumstances differently for someone who handed them back vs someone who didn't.
That's the thing, both committed the crime of mishandling classified documents, but Trump also obstructed.
Why should they not both be charged with mishandling classified documents?
Because that requires intent and that's hard to prove when someone gives them back. Same for Mike Pence
Intent to what exactly?
That "but also" is the important part. Intent is vital in cases like this. Remember you've got to convince a jury that someone did something bad. Nobody wants to send someone to jail for an honest mistake.
No, it's really not.
I could intentionally take classified docs in order to share them with someone, and then give them back upon request after I did what I wanted with them. That's clearly illegal and intent.
Because prosecutors don't always pursue every single case, for a variety of reasons.
Trump's behaviour - taking documents like nuclear secrets and invasion plans to show off to reporters, then refusing to hand them back, claiming that they belonged to him personally, made that decision impossible. No reasonable way they couldn't charge him after how he behaved.
If all he did was have classified material of the same level as Bidens, forgot them in a box in his garage, and when asked about it welcomed them in to search and handed everything back with zero question, there's no reason to think he'd have been charged. Remember news about this only broke publicly with the raid, but NARA and the DOJ had been trying to get this stuff back from Trump for months.
Biden didn't put up a fight to hold on to invasion plans so that he could show them off to writers. The fact that they charged one and not the other is perfectly reasonable.
Having the classified docs is one criminal act,
Having the classified documents is only a criminal act if you willingly retained those documents. Having retained them accidentally is not a crime.
You're suggesting Biden didn't know the documents he had were classified? Did he not explicitly say to his ghost writer that he had classified documents?
you're correct that Trump obstructed attempts to recover them and Biden did not
That's a wrap, folks.
That's one of two charges....
The relevant charge in the indictment (pdf) is 18 USC 793(e), which can be read here. It includes the phrase:
or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it
So just "having" the documents is not the crime here. It's the failing to deliver them back upon request that's really the sticking point.
or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it
Like Biden did with his ghost writer? He is literally on record telling he found the classified docs for the book.
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You think that if Biden was caught giving secrets to Putin there would be no change in his support? The guy that is constantly facing calls to step down? The guy the majority of democrats don't even want to run? He's not liked as is. He'd be removed instantly if that happened.
Nice try to turn it around, but reality does not agree with you
Do you really not know the difference or are you playing dumb? Biden fully cooperated from day one. And your boy Trump? Not so much. He may still be purposely hiding top secret defense documents today from the FBI. 3 years after they subpoenaed Trump. That is the issue here
You and I would be in jail by now for stealing and hiding top secret government secrets.
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They are both illegal and we would both be in jail for breaking federal law. It doesn’t matter that Biden “cooperated”, you don’t accidentally take TS/SCI material out of a SCIF and stash it in your office at UPENN.
I dont remember bidens team visiting his offices ahead of a search to move boxes or wipe security footage.That would add a whole new level of obstruction of he did that wouldn't it?
Didn't trumps people do those things?
They are both illegal and we would both be in jail for breaking federal law.
Nope. Cite a single person who was ever put into Federal jail for accidentally retaining classified information and immediately notifying the authorities when they realized it. It doesn’t happen, the only people who are ever charged are those who show intent to spread or deceive the authorities about those documents, and Trump did both.
It doesn’t matter that Biden “cooperated”, you don’t accidentally take TS/SCI material out of a SCIF and stash it in your office at UPENN.
Sure you do. Almost every single elected official in a similar office has done similar things. What none of them have done beside Trump is to repeatedly lie to the authorities about documents they knowingly have, signed a legal document swearing they had no more while actively moving those documents so they can’t be found, and then showing those documents off to random people.
If you read 18 USC 793(e), which is the relevant charge from the indictment (pdf) is 18 USC 793(e), it is clear that cooperating very much does matter, because part of the law is:
and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it
I’m certainly not saying Biden’s is worse and I’m not contending that Trump’s is worse, but Biden is clearly in violation of this as well.
(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Neither were/are being charged under that part. That makes me think it's not a clear violation. For instance, perhaps "gross negligence" is too difficult to demonstrate, or the documents were not "illegally" moved.
There being SCI in the contents is harder to envision being justified, but when the level involved is at the president and VP level, it may be more nebulous.
Almost every ex-president had a few illegal materials. Only one ex-president lied to the FBI on so many occasions (and is still doing so today) that the Feds finally subpoenaed him to return the copies of national secrets and then charged him with conspiracy to obstruct justice and willful retention of national security secrets when he blatantly refused.
That’s the difference
Here’s a copy of the actual indictment of Trump by the Feds if this helps you better understand
This article clarifies the whole situation very well
You could say the same thing about Peter Pan, but those are just words and the facts/evidence show that the specifics of the Trump case are magnitudes worse than with Biden. Like not even close.
But you would be wrong, they didn't find nuclear secrets at Biden s residence.
There were TS/SCI documents at the Penn Biden center that had been there since at least 2016, only found in 2022. None of the contents of what were in those documents were leaked to the media like Trump's were, but anything TS/SCI poses grave danger to the United States if they were made public, just as tightly controlled as the highest classification documents found at Mar A Lago
It wasn't leaked to the media, it was in the court documents. They are public
Didn’t come out in discovery that they found only 13 sheets of classified papers? So all these boxes spilled all over is pretty misleading. Didn’t also come out in testimony they used fake documents as place holders also? I mean Jack is admitting to all kinds of Tom foolery.
Can you send a source, I don't feel like hunting down these claims
Where did you hear “13 sheets”?? “More Than 5,000 Pages of Classified Documents Presented in Mar-a-Lago Case”
Didn’t come out in discovery that they found only 13 sheets of classified papers?
Not really. But let's say that it was 13 sheets of S/FRD classified papers, concerning nuclear weaponry of the United States. Would that be "only"?
Didn’t also come out in testimony they used fake documents as place holders also?
What do you think is the proper procedure when the government wants their documents back?
One of the things that continues to bother me is that some of the cover sheets have a white border, when as far as I'm aware with my limited experience, cover sheets are full bleed. Meaning there's a possibility some of these documents were copied using a color copier you'd find in an office workplace. And in some of the released images, the stored boxes are in a room with just that, a copier.
This CBS article shows similar phots with a caption
A photo taken by the FBI included in a motion filed by special counsel Jack Smith on June 24, 2024, showing cover sheets added by agents that replaced sensitive documents next to the boxes the records were found in.
So if they are copied if would have been by the feds.
Thank you! I genuinely hope that those are the only copies made.
Who cares it is a cover sheet. I think the bigger issue is using them to stage photos.
Gotta love the one that is just the word "CONFIDENTIAL" handwritten on a piece of printer paper. Admittedly, I don't claim to remember my security classification training fully, but I'm pretty sure that ain't approved.
In real life, cover sheets are not always available so you do what you can. It’s just a notice for people to not look if they’re not supposed to, and to know it must be secured if seen laying around (with a subsequent investigation). More important are the classification markings on the documents themselves.
Perhaps this articles biggest focus isnt what written, but the photos of the state in which classified documents were kept by Trump. Whats interesting to me is the contents of stuff they were kept with - a mishmash of newspapers, magazines, clothing, photos of himself, thank you notes, and Christmas ornaments. It appears to be the kind of collection of someone who stores random stuff without the intention of actually doing anything with them, just store and forget. It appears as if Trump had little priority on showing the classified documents to others, they were destined to decades of sitting forgotten in his storage. Unless of course someone found them, where prosecutors allege they were stored and moved from different accessible locations that include storage room, office, and even a bathroom. The article also mentions that due to the order this stuff was taken by investigators, that Trump is moving to have the charges dropped, citing that the order in which stuff was stored is critical to Trump’s case. Prosecutors say investigators did the best they could when considering the amount the off and the state they were stored in, and allege Bad Faith on the part of Trump’s lawyers. Trump had even previously argued that the FBI agents had planted the classified documents or were stored as personal records.
What is your opinion on the state which Top Secret documents were kept? How likely do you think Cannon is to dismiss the case? A Trump appointee with little trial experience, she had previously been accused of working the case in Trump's favor by various tactics such as slow walking and issuing orders in a non-appealable manner by the prosecution. Other federal judges in Florida’s Southern District sought to persuade her to step aside from the case and let another jurist take it due to her inexperience and that her courthouse lacked a facility for classified documents.
I worked Cyber Surety for 9 years with the Air Force and the biggest thing they harped about Top Secret documents was that it's ok to fuck up, but it's not ok to hide it or lie about it when you do. If he found the documents in his souvenirs box, and he said "Oops" and turned it in then there'd be no charges. Or even if he turned it in after being asked to return them, there'd be no charges. But he didn't. He threw a hissy fit when asked to return them, then lied, moved shit around, purposely hid documents to keep the agents from finding them, and then ultimately got caught. For literally anybody else, that would be a slam dunk prison sentence. What makes his case different.
I worked Cyber Surety for 9 years with the Air Force and the biggest thing they harped about Top Secret documents was that it's ok to fuck up, but it's not ok to hide it or lie about it when you do. If he found the documents in his souvenirs box, and he said "Oops" and turned it in then there'd be no charges. Or even if he turned it in after being asked to return them, there'd be no charges. But he didn't. He threw a hissy fit when asked to return them, then lied, moved shit around, purposely hid documents to keep the agents from finding them, and then ultimately got caught. For literally anybody else, that would be a slam dunk prison sentence. What makes his case different.
This is exactly how it works.
You must have been in a different Air Force than me. I agree that mishandling classified docs isn't the same as intentionally exposing them to nefarious actors, but I don't ever recall anyone in the Air Force suggesting an inadvertent leak of classified information would be hand waived away as long as you told the truth and it wasn't intentional.
Maybe it has changed a lot since the mid 00's and OpSec just isn't as serious as it was?
You must have been in a different Air Force than me. I agree that mishandling classified docs isn't the same as intentionally exposing them to nefarious actors, but I don't ever recall anyone in the Air Force suggesting an inadvertent leak of classified information would be hand waived away as long as you told the truth and it wasn't intentional.
So who has ever been charged with accidentally misplacing classified documents and, when aware, immediately contacting the proper authority? Can you name someone?
They wanna know ASAP what got out, where it was, and general risk of it being abused by other powers.
There's always been reports you've needed to sign to disclose it, but if you follow up on the proper procedure then you're fine. Yeah, you'll get the wrist slap and your leadership might be on your ass, but there wouldn't be any jail time. It's the guys who fuck up and then try to sneak around later that get hemmed up.
Human nature and honest mistakes are occasionally expected. They're only tolerated if followed on properly.
It appears as if Trump had little priority on showing the classified documents to others
He’s on tape showing the documents to others, and laughing about how he’s not supposed to be doing so
I don’t have an opinion on the state of the boxes. The state of the boxes was more or less what I’d expect from Trump. But it is a travesty this case won’t see a resolution before the election. It’s the firmest case against Trump and it perfectly illustrates him as a person.
He engaged in a blatant conspiracy to obstruct justice despite being given multiple attempts to remedy the situation. It was such a Trump thing to do. All he needed to do was return the documents, like Pence and Biden, but instead he obstructs justice and hides documents. He was caught red handed.
But it is a travesty this case won’t see a resolution before the election.
/law has been accusing Cannon of slow walking the case for a while now. Theres increasing more articles around the web about her handling of the case too.
All Trump had to do was return what they asked for too and he wouldn't have seen charges.
Also worth noting that supposedly the Top Secret documents he kept were photocopied. The ones in these photos may even be copies because the red one has a white border. People are saying actual top secret labeled covers doesnt have a border.
law has been accusing Cannon of slow walking the case for a while now
I seriously doubt many of them are actually lawyers or know much about law. Just see their takes on the Rittenhouse trial.
What are your takes on the Cannon is slow walking question?
Ken White (aka Popehat) has, all along, said there were unrealistic expectations regarding how quickly this case was going to proceed.
I don't remember him saying it explicitly, but I strongly suspect he would agree that the delays thus far aren't completely outside the norm given how complex this case it. Then you add on Cannon's lack of experience in handling cases (much less complex ones).
Cannon is definitely slow walking it, anyone can see that. It's just I wouldn't take their word as gospel on anything related to law.
All he needed to do was return the documents
He still would have been guilty of mishandling classified information even if he had willfully given all documents back before his residence was raided.
He still would have been guilty of mishandling classified information even if he had willfully given all documents back before his residence was raided.
He almost certainly would not have been prosecuted if not for knowingly lying on the affidavit he signed and showing the documents to random people, no. He had untold chances to just do the right thing, but instead he kept lying to federal investigators and showed national secrets to Kid Rock.
I didn't say anything about prosecution, I said he would have been guilty under the statute.
He's not prosecuted for the documents he gave back. He is prosecuted after he got a subpoena and started to hide things. After that, they got a search warrant.
He's being prosecuted for mishandling classified docs and obstruction.
Because they could prove intent
Intent to distribute? Intent to remove classified docs from the White House? Intent to do what exactly?
Intent to retain. Trump is being charged with willful retention of national defense information which is illegal under the Espionage Act. He is also being charged with conspiracy to obstruct justice which is also a charge based on intent to obstruct along with a false statements charge.
You can read the charges and the underlying evidence for yourself: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-the-full-trump-indictment-on-mishandling-of-classified-documents There are even pictures for your edification.
You're right. Just like biden and hillary and Colin Powell and the bush administration. But it's that "willfully returning" part that got them off. It doesn't look like you're a lying liar who's trying to lie about something if you return them.
People aren’t charged for accidentally mishandling classified documents, they’re charged for covering it up or intentionally mishandling documents.
That's a great way of putting it.
As with nearly all these high profile cases, intent says a lot.
Returning them doesn't determine whether or not you mishandled them, that's where obstruction comes in.
Biden knew he had classified docs, he literally told his ghost writer that he found them so he could include details in his memoir.
Uhhhh, I thought we all agreed everyone mentioned here mishandled documents. Only one person willfully retained those documents when asked to return them or when they were found. Thats obstruction. That's what we we're talking about? Right?
Trump has been charged with two completely different crimes, mishandling classified docs and obstruction.
I'm talking specifically about the first crime.
Do you really think Trump would get that luxury? I'm 1000000% certain that "willfully returning" wouldn't mean shit in his case.
Ahh yes, we've arrived at the part of the discussion where we have to either agree that trump acted improperly and likely caused all these problems for himself by being petulant--OR--the deep state was going to prosecute him anyway.
Whatever dude.
All he needed to do was return the documents, like Pence and Biden, but instead he obstructs justice and hides documents. He was caught red handed.
If this is what you believe, I’ve got some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you. The FBI was never gonna treat Trump fairly, lmao. The FBI lied to the FISA court to get a warrant to spy on Trump’s campaign. The FBI literally admitted in the Durham Report that they had no factual basis to launch an investigation into the Trump campaign’s collisions with Russia. The FBI absolutely despises Trump and they’re not even trying to hide it. Even if Trump handed back the documents the moment he was asked the FBI would have thrown Trump in jail on some other trumped up charges. The FBI knows Biden is an unpopular president so they’re doing anything they can to give him an electoral advantage.
The FBI was never gonna treat Trump fairly, lmao.
Except, they literally were doing just that in this case until Trump forced their hand by repeatedly lying to them and then showing those documents he lied about not having to random people. Have you looked into the specifics of this case at all?
Even if Trump handed back the documents the moment he was asked the FBI would have thrown Trump in jail on some other trumped up charges.
What a weird take, considering they haven’t thrown him in jail for the far worse things he’s proven to have done.
The FBI knows Biden is an unpopular president so they’re doing anything they can to give him an electoral advantage.
You mean like announcing he was under investigation by the FBI two weeks before the election while not saying that Biden is too? Oh wait, no. They did that to Clinton, and didn’t tell the public that Trump was also under investigation. Weird that this supposedly anti-Trump organization acts in such a way, huh?
Except, they literally were doing just that in this case until Trump forced their hand by repeatedly lying to them and then showing those documents he lied about not having to random people. Have you looked into the specifics of this case at all?
The FBI never showed this much passion when they were investigating Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton. The FBI never cared when Biden took hundreds of classified documents with him after he left the vice presidency. The FBI never showed this much concern when Biden’s ghostwriter attempted to destroy evidence after special counsel Hur was appointed to the investigation. If a civilian had been as careless with classified information as Biden had been, they would have been executed, but I guess the law doesn’t apply to you if you have a D next to your name.
What a weird take, considering they haven’t thrown him in jail for the far worse things he’s proven to have done.
This was obviously a figure of speech. I didn’t mean they were literally going to throw him in jail on the spot, I meant they were going to indict him on some other bogus charges like what they’re doing now.
You mean like announcing he was under investigation by the FBI two weeks before the election while not saying that Biden is too? Oh wait, no. They did that to Clinton, and didn’t tell the public that Trump was also under investigation. Weird that this supposedly anti-Trump organization acts in such a way, huh?
One single incident doesn’t change the fact that the FBI and federal law enforcement have a long history of anti-conservative bias. Peter Strzok was literally fired by the FBI for texts he made that were critical of Trump. The FBI suppressed the lab leak hypothesis because they were afraid it would help Trump’s re-election bid. They waited over two years to charge Trump for actions relating to the 2020 presidential election just because they wanted to drag out over election season for the maximum political advantage to Biden. The list goes on. The FBI is just a hive of anti-Trump more concerned with hounding Trump with investigative witch-hunts than solving actual crimes.
The FBI never showed this much passion when they were investigating Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton. The FBI never cared when Biden took hundreds of classified documents with him after he left the vice presidency. The FBI never showed this much concern when Biden’s ghostwriter attempted to destroy evidence after special counsel Hur was appointed to the investigation.
They literally investigated all of those example, and since those people cooperated and didn’t repeatedly lie to the investigators, they didn’t get charged with that whereas Trump repeatedly lied, signed an affidavit swearing he no longer had any documents while telling his staff to move the documents he still had, and Trump intentionally showed those documents he knew he shouldn’t have with random people.
If a civilian had been as careless with classified information as Biden had been, they would have been executed
lol well that’s just absurd.
This was obviously a figure of speech. I didn’t mean they were literally going to throw him in jail on the spot, I meant they were going to indict him on some other bogus charges like what they’re doing now.
There’s nothing bogus about these charges and I’d recommend that you get used to that fact. Trump is a criminal, and if you want to support a criminal as President that’s your right, but this “bogus charge” stuff is just silly.
One single incident doesn’t change the fact that the FBI and federal law enforcement have a long history of anti-conservative bias.
Oh you think there’s only one incident? Hunter Biden getting charged with a crime that no one does by itself doesn’t exist in your mind either? Furthermore, why do you think an organization who’s made up and led overwhelmingly by Republicans is anti conservative?
Peter Strzok was literally fired by the FBI for texts he made that were critical of Trump.
Sounds like the FBI isn’t anti-conservative if they fired him?
The FBI suppressed the lab leak hypothesis because they were afraid it would help Trump’s re-election bid.
What exactly did the FBI do and why do you think the lab leak hypothesis would have helped Trump at all?
They waited over two years to charge Trump for actions relating to the 2020 presidential election just because they wanted to drag out over election season for the maximum political advantage to Biden.
You think the FBI decides when to charge people?
The list goes on.
Let’s hope, because so far you don’t have much of anything.
I know a few people with attention deficit disorder who store things very much like this. Items they intend to use later end up being stored just as haphazardly as items they don’t.
We do know that after the subpoena Trump insisted on going through his boxes of classified information to sort out what he wanted to return and what he wanted to hide from investigators. So he had some rationale behind what was and wasn’t kept.
That is true. Its come out recently that Trump specifically didnt want to return the documents because he thought it would lead to charges.
I wouldn’t exactly call that highly guarded.
Looks like this is in response to the prosecution's admitted mishandling of evidence
In their filing, prosecutors acknowledged the government had previously — and incorrectly — told U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon that the boxes remained “in their original, intact form as seized,” other than a decision to replace classified documents with placeholder sheets.
That depiction, the prosecutors conceded, is “inconsistent” with their current understanding that some of the documents are not now in the same order as they appear in digital scans of the records that were made in the fall of 2022 after Cannon ordered an unusual process to review whether the FBI may have seized legally privileged records.
“There are some boxes where the order of items within that box is not the same as in the associated scans,” prosecutors wrote, adding in a footnote: “The Government acknowledges that this is inconsistent with what Government counsel previously understood and represented to the Court.”
This sounds like an attempt to say 'we already found them mixed up and spread across the floor'
Attempt to say or just... providing evidence?
I guess? Previous articles said the records were in boxes and the people who did the search spread out the docs on the floor to take pictures, as standard procedure. Some of these look like the same thing
Do you mean the ones showing that classified official documents were being stored in boxes of random unrelated stuff like clothes or Christmas decorations?
The ones that shows them spread out on the ground specifically
Like these original ones https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-evidence-photo-standard-practice-trump-mar-a-lago-search-2022-9?op=1
The ones in that image you just linked were clearly being recorded for evidence, that's why the (2A) tag and rulers are included.
The first two in this article show boxes that were haphazardly piled into a room and fell over with their contents spilling out on to the floor.
Something that most people don't think about is changing of the resident of the White House. My aunt and uncle where truck drivers for a moving company. They moved Bush JR and his secretary from Texas to the White House. Once they got to the White House they had 4 hours to move Bush into the White House and that was after waiting 4 hours for the movers to move the Clinton family out. 4 HOURS each. Stuff in every room gets thrown into boxes. Each box is numbered and put on a tally sheet. The Oval Office is stripped of everything from the previous president and thrown into boxes. All of that is then put into a moving truck and moved to where ever the now former presidential family wants to go. There is no time to sort out what is personal versus top secret. It's all just tossed into boxes and shipped out. There is a 10 hour maximum to change out who is the resident of the White house. 10 hours, 2 moving trucks, 20 movers MAX. The same thing happens at the Vice Presidents house. This is how top secret stuff ends up at the new residents or storage of the former president and vice president.
And NARA gave Trump a lot of time, and then some extension of time, before they contacted FBI
Biden finally complied with NARA 6 1/2 years after being vice president and more than 14 years after being a senator and only because Trump got caught 2 1/2 years after leaving the White House.
No, NARA didn't reach out to Biden for 6 1/2 years. The same thing goes for Mike Pence.
Why wait 61/2 years? No. His people gave NARA the documents because pictures were already circulating online of boxes of records next to his corvette.
Could you post the link with the pictures being circulated?
Which is why the documents that were missing were first requested for return and legal action was only taken after aTrump refused to return classified documents which he no long had the legal right to retain. Trump had the opportunity to rectify the movers potential mistakes. He refused to do so.
This also why Biden had boxes of documents in his garage. He moved back to his house after being the Vice President.
And he returned them of his own volition prior to any requests being made by the fed. Pense did too. Thats why neither one is in court over their erroneously retained documents
Biden complied with officials, whereas Trump continuously refused.
This distinction is a key reason why Trump knowing about the documents is more obvious. He was explicitly told that he had them.
He didn't just comply, Biden returned documents of his own volotion when they were found by him/his team. IIRC Records never made a request for the returned documents.
IMHO, and I'm just spitballing ideas here, but it's quite possible that before we start the stopwatch on the 4 hour window, they have weeks to prepare everything in advance.
What a bullshit excuse. Trump knew that he was leaving office on November 7th when the race was called. He had over a month to prepare.
He’s clearly unorganized and sloppy, which is why all of the classified materials are mixed in with his personal items.
I don't doubt that but there is also probably a big difference from a president who knows he lost or his time is done and accepts as opposed to one who still claims the election was stolen.
Biden did the exact same exact thing. The only difference is he acted quicker than Trump in getting those secrets back to where they need to be. The law should be applied evenly
No, Mike Pence and Joe Biden didn't do the same thing as what Donald Trump did. Trump didn't comply with a subpoena, Pence and Biden the documents back.
Correct. They both had documents, but Biden acted quicker than Trump. That's why I said in my comment.
The law is applied evenly. Pence and Biden did the same things, Trump did the complete opposite.
The law in this case being evenly prosecuting politicians for taking the documents out in the first place. That's the problem here imo, less so how fast they returned them, but I'm all for Trump getting punished more for not returning them faster.
Here's the law
(e)Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
If Trump would've done what Pence and Biden did, he wouldn't be here today. But a couple of months before the search warrant, Trump sent his attorney Christina Bobb to give back the documents requested in a subpoena. But he only gave them some.
Explained in:
F. In Response to the Subpoena, Counsel for the Former President Provided a Limited Number of Documents Accompanied by a Certification that All Responsive Documents Were Produced Following a Diligent Search
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.48.0_1.pdf
I guess the law disagrees with what I assumed it was/believe it should be. Taking secret documents and storing them in your house should be against the law. All three of them should be punished for it.
Biden didn't act "quicker" than Trump. That implies that they acted in the same way. Trump is only being charged because he not only refused to hand over the documents when the feds demanded them back, he outright lied about what he had. Had he just cooperated this would never have even been a news story, let alone escalated to criminal charges.
Biden on the other hand was proactive with handing stuff over. That's why he wasn't charged with anything.
Had he just cooperated this would never have even been a news story
I disagree on that, taking secret documents out of the white house was always going to be a major news story, even if Trump returned them and apologized profusely. Both presidents need to be held accountable for taking the documents, that's the real issue here.
Well, it wouldn't have been. Hence why literally nobody knew about the docs that Biden had for years after he left office until he came forward with them.
Biden did the exact same exact thing. The only difference is he acted
quicker than Trumpin getting those secrets back to where they need to be. The law should be applied evenly
The law was applied evenly. Both Biden and Pence were cooperative and so neither was prosecuted.
and so neither was prosecuted.
Thats bizarre to me. none of the three took any care in protecting documents important to national security. How that isnt prosecutable is beyond me. But I guess if all three are being held to the same standard, then there's that at least, though the law is still busted for excusing it in the first place.
There's a difference between handwritten notes and official documents detailing invasion plans.
They are not the same thing. The types of documents were not identical, nor similar. Trump stole secrets of the highest classification. Neither VP had access to such information.
This prosecution has been pathetic from the beginning. They really are going to double down.
Is that how the FBI/prosecutors actually found them, or did they move the boxes around and "stage" them so as to make Trump look bad?
Trump is something of a hoarder and is messy. He doesn't need FBI to "stage" a bathroom full of boxes.
Trump is something of a hoarder and is messy.
How would you possibly know this?
He's a public figure and he also have a public docket with both descriptions and pictures
Can you provide historical examples of these traits?
I have linked the docket in a previous comment
That's different from being a hoarder generally and being personally "messy". Have any of us here personally inspected the organizational skills of Donald Trump's personal and professional life?
I'll differ to his cabinets assessment of him. I dont need to have a personal interview with a politician to draw conclusions based on their staffs comments..
I don't see a Corvette unsecured in a garage. I do see files protected by the Secret Service and locked doors
Joe Biden also have Secret Service protection. So what's the issue
They leave biden's house unprotected!? If true, I feel like someone over at the secret service really dropped the ball on that one. Someone should let them know. Any criminal or terrorist could wander in there and have the run of the place.
That first picture is suspicious, and looks way too deliberately spread out like its setup for a photo. Didn't they admit they did that to some of them?
So these were the nuke secrets he was supposedly selling to Mongolia or whatever? How did he even find them?
Behold; your presidential candidate's organizational skills.
Kick the boxes until you hear the Christmas ornaments jingle, then you know you've nailed where you left the nuclear secrets.
Looks like a box of newspapers to me
The very first paragraph
images in a new court filing that show how the former president stashed “top secret” materials and government “secrets” in a cluttered collection of clothing, Christmas ornaments, newspapers and photographs of himself.
Not gonna believe it unless they show uncut camera footage from entry to discovery of the documents, I’ve seen enough lower-level raids to know they’ll rifle through everything and make a huge mess looking for shit…
What's the purpose of leaking more photos at this point? After it came out that they had staged the other photo of classified docs? Why do they think anyone would trust them now?
It's not being leaked. It's court documents, in a court case people can file motions.
United States v. Trump (9:23-cr-80101). District Court, S.D. Florida
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67490070/united-states-v-trump/
These photos weren't leaked, they were part of a court filing. As for the "staged" photos - the nearest I can find you're talking about was the FBI spreading out the documents to take pictures. That isn't stating documents, that's documenting the evidence of what they found after pictures were taken of the original location. Standard procedure, as stated in this article.
Yes, I am sure.
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I remember when conservatives had a years-long meltdown about Hillary Clinton committing far lesser offenses…
Glad we can see the complete (lack of) principles on the right