Hi all. Fairly new player here. Still learning the ropes. Would this rule apply to sacrificed creatures? IE, I could use a sac outlet to force other players to sac? Sorry for the probably dumb question. TIA! :)
Thank you friend! The wording tripped me up a little and minor keyword differences have burned me before 😂
Just so you know, and maybe to help clarify some things, the word "dies" is one of those words in Magic that actually has a rules definition, even though it might not be super clear just from reading the cards. It's basically Magic shorthand for a creature going from the battlefield directly to the graveyard, be it via sacrifice, combat damage, targeted removal, -1/-1 counters, etc... Just in case that helps clear up something that pops up later, lol.
Also, you've correctly identified the correct way to play with Grave Pact, so you're doing great! Pair it and your sac outlet with a [[Mortician Beetle]] and [[Endless Cockroaches]] or [[Reassembling Skeleton]] or [[Squee the Immortal]] and have fun! Or make a green black deck with lots of saproling tokens, that's what I do.
Shorthand for a permanent going to the gravryard from the battlefield, even if it isn't a creature
Sort of. Creatures and maybe Planeswalkers are the only permanents that the word "dies" is applied to in the technical, rules based definition of the word. People might use the word "dies" as slang to refer to other types of permanents being yarded from the field, and technically the definition of the word given by rule 700.4 is "goes from the battlefield to the graveyard", but it is never used for anything other than creatures (and maybe Planeswalkers though I can't think of any examples off the top of my head). Every other type of "dies" is still worded "is put into a graveyard from play". See [[Disciple of the Vault]]'s reprint in double masters vs [[Blood Artist]].
So, yeah, out of context it COULD mean any permanent, but in practice it doesn't.
It won't ever specify dies in rules text, but if an artifact somehow has a "when ~ dies" trigger, that will still trigger when it goes to the graveyard. This is relevant for Shelob as well as various incarnations of Vraska.
another example of a noncreature setting off "die[s]" rules text: i [[spikefield hazard]] your [[grizzly bears]], then i [[imprisoned in the moon]] it, then i [[stone rain]] it; it gets exiled
spikefield hazard /Spikefield Cave - (G) (SF) (txt)
grizzly bears - (G) (SF) (txt)
swift reconfiguration - (G) (SF) (txt)
naturalize - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
700.4 doesn’t specify that the word “dies” only applies to creatures. It’s literally just shorthand for “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield”.
For fun, the old-border planeswalkers with a ton of wordy rules, like [[Teferi, Time Raveler (SLD#252)]], use the wording “If ~ has no loyalty, ~ abandons you”. This is just kind of a fun flavor alternative to the word “dies”.
Yeah, I guess in War of the Spark, and possibly after, there were at least a few instances of Planeswalkers dying, like on Cruel Celebrant.
And yes, I did mention that the word dies is defined as that. But the word "dies" is only ever used for creatures and Planeswalkers. It COULD apply to any permanent, there's nothing stopping it, but it DOESN'T, because Wizards never prints cards that way.
OTJ vraska generates artifacts with die triggers that still work.
Huh, I must have missed that one. Is she called something besides Vraska because the only Vraska I know of from Thunder Junction is [[Vraska, the Silencer]] and she only triggers when non-token creatures die? And they come back as just artifacts that don't trigger the ability again (also because your opponent doesn't control them anymore)
A non token creatures with a dies trigger dies. [[Medic Outlaw]]. Owner draws a card, vraska's controller has it return to the battlefield on their side. It is a Medic Outlaw - artifact - treasure with When Medic Outlaw dies draw a card. Vraska's controller sacs the artifact, drawing a card because the artifact died.
Ah, I see what you meant now. Yeah, that's a really good distinction to make. Wizards only prints the word "dies" in the context of creatures and planeswalkers, and a creature/pw that becomes another card type won't trigger other cards that say "dies" because they all reference the creature/pw card type, but if a card references itself in an ability that triggers upon dying then that effect will happen when they go from the battlefield to the graveyard regardless of the permanent's current type.
I think that sounds like the best way to describe this now, lol.
Vraska, the Silencer - (G) (SF) (txt)
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Disciple of the Vault - (G) (SF) (txt)
Blood Artist - (G) (SF) (txt)
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Thank you so dang much dude! This is a ton of help!
For duplicates of this effect, see:
[[Dictate of Erebos]]
[[Butcher of Malakir]]
Dictate of Erebos - (G) (SF) (txt)
Butcher of Malakir - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Mortician Beetle - (G) (SF) (txt)
Endless Cockroaches - (G) (SF) (txt)
Reassembling Skeleton - (G) (SF) (txt)
Squee the Immortal - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
I use it in my Jund Eldrazi deck. I sack creatures to pay for bigger creatures and often clear everybody else off the board.
I've got it in [[Wilhelt]], because I've got more bodies per body.
I would've gone with [[Lord Skitter]] myself for the added benefit of exiling creatures as they go into the grave.
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Burning Sands on your ass on every deck that can slot it.
Be a shame if my Golgari deck were to [[Naturalize]] your Burning Sands, lol. Or, ya know, just do what I'm gonna do anyway because if I'm sacing creatures then everyone else is too, so I'm not gonna have the least amount of lands at the end of this, just the most creatures.
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Another one you'll have to fight people on is tokens, players will tell you grave pact doesn't trigger off of tokens. This is false. Tokens hit the yard and immediately remove themselves from play after. But tokens dying or being sac'd will trigger this too.
I like how everyone is saying “(x card) sees it” now. It somehow makes explaining cards easier by giving them a sense of sentience. Like on Command Zone. I’ve been hearing them say it lately and i could swear they’ve never described triggers like that before. Idk maybe I’m imagining it all
The first I heard it was back in 2005ish, when I was playing MTGO. I asked a question on the official WotC forums and remembered somebody saying that one card will "see" another.
I've been hearing it since the late 90s/early 2000s. It's just very effective parlance.
Yeah maybe it’s just one of those things where you start paying attention and you hear it everywhere. Which makes more sense lol
This reminds me of an extreme misinterpretation of the word sacrifice that someone made when I was also learning awhile back. (You got it though, just reminded me lol) They were new too obviously but they had a card that sacrificed a creature.
Well they thought that meant they could sacrifice my creature, and they did it so confidently and in one motion it seemed like they always played that way. Had to really look at the cards and look it up to correct them that sacrificing was only for their creatures Lol.
That’s amazing 😂 I’m definitely guilty of overconfidently playing a card wrong as hell a couple times hahaha
Years ago someone played terror against my board. It took a while to explain that's not how it worked
They tried to use targeted removal as a board wipe?
No, they tried to sacrifice my creature, to destroy another one of mine. I had to explain you may only sacrifice a permanent you control
I don't think it was [[terror]] in that case.
But I get what you're saying. Trying to sacrifice your creature to fulfill the "sacrifice a creature" cost on one of their cards. Can't do that!
This was something that came up more than once when my friend group was learning to play in the early 2000’s. Except we didn’t really have the Internet the same we way we have it now, and none of us had money or transportation to play at an LGS. So we just played a janky version of Magic and argued a lot.
When you sacrifice a Permanent, by Default, it is being put into its owner's Graveyard.
701.17a To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the battlefield directly to its owner’s graveyard. A player can’t sacrifice something that isn’t a permanent, or something that’s a permanent they don’t control. Sacrificing a permanent doesn’t destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that replace destruction can’t affect this action.
ie. The Permanent is "Dying".
700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”
So, if you Sacrifice a Creature, it will Trigger your [[Grave Pact]]...
Barring any Replacement effect (ie. [[Rest in Peace]])
Grave Pact - (G) (SF) (txt)
Rest in Peace - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Flawless answer. Thank you so much bro!
Yup I play this deck. It's not fun for others lol and I feel like a dick
Everyone whines when you play Grave Pact or Dictate of Erebos (which does the same thing)
Because it is practically a stax piece in the decks that play it and everyone whines about stax.
I should add this to my [[Smeagol, helpful guide]] deck. I have several pieces that help sac my cards and bring them back from the graveyard. This addition might actually make any pod hate me lmao
I play Smeagol. You're milling your opponents and taking their lands. They should already hate you.
I’m mostly using this deck with a friend group where one friend enjoys counterspelling and board wipes. Maybe some local game store pods will be willing to let me torture them for one game
Smeagol, helpful guide - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
It gets even more fun when paired with [[edict of erobos]] and [[butcher of malakir]]. You sac 1 they sac 3 😁. [[Ashnod's altar]] and [[goblin bombardment]] are probably my favorite sacrifice outlets. Jund Tokens/aristocrats is a pretty nasty line to play.
butcher of malakir - (G) (SF) (txt)
Ashnod's altar - (G) (SF) (txt)
goblin bombardment - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Yes! I have dictate and butcher in my mono black for this exact reason. Just pure, unfussy board control.
I dont have gravepact, but I run the ther 2 and ashnod's in [[Meren]], it can get pretty ugly.
Reassembling skeleton
Just a fair warning, as someone who runs this in a Korvold deck abusing this in an aristocrats sac style deck will make people salty at you and for a very good reason lol
Valid 😂
Just an FYI about this card. I used to run it in an aristocrats deck that let me bring back my creatures like crazy. I ran this card and [[dictate of erbos]] but noticed that when I played these cards it started ruining the fun for my friends and that's not what I'm about personally. The more fun others are having the more enjoyment I get. So basically i would hold back playing this card cause it was pretty toxic in my deck and then I noticed it was taking up a card slot for something I would play so I ended up taking it out.
Anyway, this is just my experience. Just something to keep in mind.
Meanwhile, my [[Shadowborn Apostle]] deck needs its Dictate because otherwise I just have too few ways to eliminate problematic creatures. The deck is criminally short on spot removal, but there are too many cards that just work better to remove.
Shadowborn Apostle - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
PUDDNHEAD
Seeing this amongst other stuff is really making me want to build a esper diplomacy deck I just haven't played in a few years but yeah thanks for the help
How would this work with [[Athreos, God of Passage]]?
I mean, the two both have "creature dying" triggers so as long as a creature you both control and own dies (Grave Pact cares about a creature you control dying, Athreos about a creature you own dying), you get both triggered abilities.
If you play [[Gilded Drake]] to steal an opponent's creature, then the opponent's creature dies while under your control, you'd trigger Pact, but not Athreos.
If you [[Doom Blade]] that Gilded Drake while it's still under your opponent's control, you'd trigger Athreos, but not Pact.
Gilded Drake - (G) (SF) (txt)
Doom Blade - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Athreos, God of Passage - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
I’m not sure buddy. But that’s an insane value for a low mana drop. Adding that in my “to buy” list.
This as a single card can be brutal, but I do believe it also stacks (ie if you have two of this card in play other players sacrifice two creatures for every one creature of yours that dies, and so on)… wouldn’t recommend it as playing one alone is kinda a dick move, but the potential is there
Gonna have to grab this card for one of my sacrifice decks. This is sweet!
This fits nicely into my Zombie deck
Oh yeah bro anything built around graveyard play and sacs can use this heavy
I use that very technique ofter. It really shuts down a voltron deck.
Totally engrossed by the artwork. Looks like it’s a nice day, but this zombie is happy staying inside playing his harp.
Relatable tbh
How do rule explanations get hundreds of updoots?
Brother I have absolutely no clue 😂 I’m just as puzzled as you
This would be great in a black green self sacrifice deck. Give it some sapprolings and some zombies for sacrifice outlets and a lot of ways to sacrifice them.
My other favorites would bring back the creatures sacrificed or power up current creatures in sddention to whatever else you want
[[Grave betrayal]] [[Falkenrath Noble]] [[Death's Presence]] [[Meren of Clan Nel Toth]] [[Rergat, Plaugebreath]] [[Skyclave Shadowcat]] [[Ashnod's Alter]]
Plenty of cards around "When another creature dies" or "When a creature enters the graveyard"
You could even combo with cards that have "Enters the battlefield" for some good effects.
And keep an eye out for free sacrifice options too
Good luck!
Dude thank you so much! So much value here.
:) it's one of my favorite flavors of play. Meren is my favorite. Most of the cards I linked plus [[corpsejack menace]] is another favorite combo, eventually you get a few saps/zombies in the XX/XX range just by sacking 1/1 tokens
Corpsejack + Death's Presence is what I'm meaning
corpsejack menace - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Grave betrayal - (G) (SF) (txt)
Falkenrath Noble - (G) (SF) (txt)
Death's Presence - (G) (SF) (txt)
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - (G) (SF) (txt)
Skyclave Shadowcat - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Hey one thing to warn you about some extremely powerful cards can actually make for unfun experiences. Check with your playgroup about it. As a heads up cards like this and others - Armageddon, heavy stax may not offer a great experience.
Absolutely friend! My dedicated play group is a bunch of my best friends and we decide how sweaty or casual we want the game to be beforehand. Always a solid bit of advice though :)
If a group has no interaction for your enchantment OR your sac outlet, I think there is a different reason they have not so great experiences…
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If zou had this out with braids, and sac it to her, would opponents have to sac twice?
I used to have a zombie deck with [[Grimgrin, Corpse Born]] as my commander. If you really want to lose friends, use Grimgrin with Gravepact, [[Rooftop Storm]], and [[Gravecrawler]].
Grimgrin, Corpse Born - (G) (SF) (txt)
Rooftop Storm - (G) (SF) (txt)
Gravecrawler - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
As long as the creature dies yes.
With the term '"die", magic refers to a creature that goes to the graveyard FROM the battlefIeld.
"Dies" means that the creature goes from the battlefield to the graveyard, what includes sacrifices.
You've already had the answer from others, but I'd like to point out that [[Dictate of Erebos]] also exists, if you're thinking or building around this effect.
My [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician]] deck loves them. Had a buddy playing zombies, got out 20+ 2/2 tokens, I was gonna let him have his fun, but he swung at me, so I made him sacrifice his whole board.
Dictate of Erebos - (G) (SF) (txt)
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
My favorite combo: this and fleshbag marauder
This one in a apostle Deck is pure Fun (for me) on the table <3
I love this card with [[Abyssal Gatekeeper]] and [[Fleshbag marauder]]. Fleshbag is underrated because he can choose himself as sacrifice bait and with pact out, he takes out two of everyone's creatures. Except you :)
Abyssal Gatekeeper - (G) (SF) (txt)
Fleshbag marauder - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
Yes , if you sacrifice a token creature this will force them to sacrifice one as well .
Love this card in my slimefoot deck.
Pair this with [[tergid, god of fright]] and watch the table turn on your opponents
To be clear, even if a planswalker dies, it will not trigger this card as it only cares when creatures die. (Luxors ...blade?/one of the sarkhans As exceptions)
I've got a grave pact card that doesn't have an emblem in the middle right. What set is it From?
This card is too serious for me to play....get it? It's bad.
It's good.
The card is great. I meant my joke was bad. Really bad.
I got what you meant. 😂❤️
What a grave error…
Yes, this sees creatures that you've sacrificed.