In his youth was Denethor a skilled or decent warrior?
QuestionHe was jealous that his daddy recognized Aragorn as a great leader lol
He was pretty much a Faramir. Skilled, cultured, obedient, yet outclassed by someone else. In this case someone that is not even from Gondor
Meh. Books Faramir is pretty confident in his own skills and abilities. It specifically says that Denethor and Boromir are more similar from a pride and vanity standpoint.
100% agree. I was just pointing how I think they were treated.
It's sort of the converse in this respect though, because Aragorn genuinely had more Numenorean blood and was a better leader than Denethor.
Meanwhile Boromir is less wise and shrewd than Faramir, but gets all the glory.
They're not directly comparable though, I guess it might be fair to say that Boromir is more charismatic than Faramir and Denethor both.
Meanwhile Boromir is less wise and shrewd than Faramir, but gets all the glory.
True, but we don't know much about Aragorn role in Gondor when he was Thorongil. He was an accompished comander and... that's all. From what we know Denethor could have seen him as only a warlord and thus the resentment.
While the situations have many differencies I see one clear similarity: an steward with two superb followers where one is prefered over the other.
That said Denethor character was the main problem in both cases.
EDIT: While Boromir had less Numenoran blood he was definetly a better commander and soldier than Faramir
I think we have a bit more detail on Aragorn's time as Thorongil from the appendices, not sure about other sources.
IIRC his achievement was around burning the fleet of Umbar, which likely saved Pelargir during the War of the Ring and ultimately led to him being able to save Minas Tirith and win the day at the Pellenor Fields.
He'd have been using the name Aragorn then though? War of the Ring being post-Thorongil but pre-Elessar? Genuinely asking.
What I believe the above meant was Aragorn, as Thorongil, attacking Umbar and destroying large parts of their fleet was damaging enough that when the War of the Ring rolled around 40ish years later, the Corsairs were weaker than they could have been, so Pelargir and the southern fiefs were "only" embattled when Aragorn and the Grey Company arrived, not completely overwhelmed and overrun.
No, he was using Thorongil when he burned the fleet of Umbar. This was the last thing he did before leaving to go explore Mordor, so it's before he goes hunting for Gollum
We know his hair would have looked majestic on the high seas sailing to destroy the haradrim fleet
Umbar fleets
That's them.
source on Faramirnbeing a better commander while they lived?
I didn't say he was a better commander, I said he got all the glory (confirmed by the text) and was more charismatic.
We can argue about whether he was more charismatic, personally I think it's clear that he was purely because Faramir was more reserved even though he inspired no less loyalty amongst his own. He was objectively more popular in Gondor.
True BUT Borimir is still the better warrior so no matter how good Faramir is he's always going to be compared to Borimir. And as Bergond says, (I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book with me) people in this age have a hard time believing someone can be learned in Lore and Music and Arts and still be a great warrior. So while Faramir IS a great warrior is he's underestimated and is always considered second to Borimir.
The great thing about books Faramir, though, is that he’s aware that Boromir is stronger, but he doesn’t feel like he has anything to prove. He knows that he is a capable warrior himself, and doesn’t feel jealousy or spite toward Boromir.
Isn't that kinda the point though? Faramir is more stately while Boromir is more a man of action. Shown by (at least in the movies) the deleted scene where Faramir offers to go represent Gondor to get the ring and Denethor is basically like "it's too important for you." All while Boromir is like "can you maybe stop hounding me so I can have a moment?" Showing that Faramir is cool with doing business while Boromir just wants to lead the men.
The whole point though, IMO, is that Faramir is _very nearly_ as capable a fighter and leader as Boromir. This is reinforced by statements made by Beregond when he and Pippin are watching the retreat from Osgiliath. Books Faramir is, IMO, much like Aragorn where the strength and leadership of ancient Numenor is also accompanied by the wisdom and understanding of ancient Numenor. Faramir has the same utter self-assurance that Aragorn and Boromir have, but doesn't have any of the pride and vanity that Boromir has.
To be fair, I'm 100% talking about books Faramir in all of this. PJ really did Faramir (and Aragorn in a way) dirty. I understand _why_ they thought they needed to nerf their wisdom and self-assurance, but I still hate it.
But movie Faramir wasn't jealous of Boromir. They had a good relationship. He was only jealous that of his father's attention toward and preference of Boromir.
I didn't get jealousy from it, personally, just sadness. To me, jealousy implies some measure of resentment and/or wishing you had something and the other person didn't, and I didn't get any real vibe of resentment for Boromir from even movies Faramir. Like, he just was sad that his dad didn't love and/or appreciate his efforts.
My thing with the books is Aragorn imo is too self assured. No way some dude ranging in the north decides it's a good time to return and then gets confused when only a few people know he's the real deal. And as for Faramir. I kinda like underappreciated movie version. Because everyone knows what it's like to be undervalued and looked past for someone else. The self doubt. The question of why swirling in the brain. The fear that maybe it's just you.
However I completely agree the books are the cannon here so it's still a butchering.
I'd like to push back on that a little. Aragorn didn't spend his life as a hardscrable hunter gatherer or anything. He is extremely driven, intelligent, and tough as nails mentally and physically. Tutored by the elves, so exemplary he talks an elf maiden into an engagement and then gets her father's approval provided he help defeat Sauron (book Elrond is fine with the union). He then proceeds to lead the northern Dunedain, earn legendary warrior status in Rohan AND Gondor AND burn the Corsair fleet and generally just spend the better part of a century being awesome. If I'd done all that I'd feel like I could take on all the hosts of Mordor myself.
That and is an equal if not better leader. Faramir loved not the blade for its keenness nor the arrow for its swiftness but only those things they defended, Boromir revelled in battle and glory and feats of strength. Add to this that men and even horses were willing to stand up to the terror of the nazgul for Faramirs sake, and that while Boromir was earning glory leading men in open battle Faramir was waging a guerrilla war in Ithilien and as a warrior Faramir more then holds his own.
Abandon your posts!
Which completely explains his dislike of him. We tend to see our own flaws reflected in others, and we usually do not like that.
This sub has an unusually high number of wise people on it
Boromir didn‘t outclass Faramir in any meaningful way.
Wow. Really puts it all in perspective.
Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.
He also went toe to toe with sauron via the palatir, matching or even besting the willpower of saruman although it made him unhinged eventually.
I wouldn't say Denethor was winning anything with the Palantir.
In comparison to everyone else, including the most powerful wizard at the time, he absolutely was.
I don't really see how, as Sauron was actively manipulating him with it. Aragorn has vastly more success.
Aragorn used it once, but remember Denethor was able to use it for decades before finally succumbing to the pressure
Was denethor a better leader and more capable than his own father I wonder?
It must have been frustrating for him to see this Aragorn dude also not age while he’s getting older and more frail
I’d imagine Denethor wasn’t really aging a lot by the time Aragorn/Thorongil headed out.
Did not know that. Very interesting as he seems to crack under pressure when Osgoliath is taken-not a whole lot of military acumen shining through. Or perhaps we’re just seeing the fallout of Boromir’s death/a father grieving.
Movies sort of did the lot of them dirty, character-wise.
Palantir...
:O holy cow the palantir made him fall into despair
Idk about movie Denethor as he is a very different character, but book Denethor absolutely.
Denethor laughed bitterly. ‘Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! [Sauron] will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.’
He stood up and cast open his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and girt with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver. ‘Thus have I walked, and thus now for many years have I slept,’ he said, ‘lest with age the body should grow soft and timid.’
God damnit, every single paragraph is so fkn epic
It's so true!
They couldn't devote like literally TEN seconds in the movie to this scene that would have made Denethor a vastly more interesting character???
They'd need to completely change their approach for the character for a scene like this to work. They went with "dumb crazy asshole" as a characterization instead of the book's characterization which is more "smart hardass who's focused entirely on putting up the most valiant defense possible while compartmentalizing his emotions because he thinks everyone's going to die."
I saw it more as "valiant leader who lost hope and becomes a broken asshole."
Because Gandalf basically says before entering to not talk about Boromir and Faramir is still out doing sorties. And he mentions how long he's been defending Gondor alone. And he's technically right that Gandalf almost never has good news.
Now had they included a palantir scene or two where they show him growing more frustrated and cracked. Something like:
Cut to Denethor in his tower gazing into the palantir
"You believe that you may subdue me like some common mongrel. Yet still I persist. Have you no great armies? No men with which to marshall this victory you claim is at hand?"
The palantir starts showing osgiliath in ruin and cuts to Boromir getting shot
"Denethor is visibly shook but refuses to believe no! What lies are these you must peddle in order to maintain your powers. I will not be swayed by such falsehoods from a weakened apparition."
The horn of Gondor sounds and he is pulled away to where he finds out Boromir is actually dead
Shit bro, that's so well written
Pretty much this.
It's a much easier comparison then in the books. In the books, Gondor is still a powerful force but it cannot muster its entire force in one place because of the corsairs threatening Gondor's coast and sea-facing region. Which they could have added to the movies but will add like another 20 minutes to the trilogy which is already considered very long. It's easier to portray Denethor as incompetent and Mordor as being an overpowering force.
I think it would have taken away from boromir’s death. They were really driving home the fact that he was pretty fucked up after his fave son died.
Had to save screen time for 20 minutes of the hobbits gazing lovingly into each other's eyes.
And Frodo and Gandalf laughing in *slow motion*.
I mean… that’s sort of the equivalent of some old kook standing up at the nursing home, declaring he can still bang, and then accidentally popping Janice Smalengocker because his saggy-ass finger accidentally flipped the safety off.
I can dress in armour. I can claim I can fight. So can Denethor. Where’s the proof?
Dude. Wearing and walking around in 100lbs of armor is the proof. It's a constant workout.
Mail armour doesn't weigh that much. Even a full plate is only around 15-25 kg.
And for an 89 year old man (yes, with some of the blood of Numenor, but none of his close ancestors lived beyond 100), that’s still rather impressive.
No argument here.
I see that more as a metaphor of how much he trained his skills in battle than a mere count of how many hours I wore his armor. Edit: why you downvoted me down to hell? What did i say :O
Don’t forget what Gandalf said about Denethor… that the blood of Westernmess runs true in him. He and Aragorn are pretty much the last of the Numenorians.
even Gandalf was wary around Denethor, thats all the proof I need
Great comparison.
And the fact that he slept in armor in his bedroom speaks more of paranoia than military skill.
Which part of the quote says he was a good warrior?
It implies he knows to fight at least
Sort of like claiming "I'll kick your ass" on Reddit 🙄
Not really
If making that claim required you to live and sleep in heavy steel armor.
The implication of “many years have I slept” is him directly saying he has seen combat.
Well, he's no Thorongil.
Whatever happened to that guy? Me and my fellow Gondorians loved him, then he just disappeared one day.
They say he just disappeared after a great military victory without even returning to celebrate and resupply before setting out. But that's awfully convenient for Denethor, know what I'm saying?
This hero has no equal among the men of the Third Age. The situation with the attack on Gondor immediately showed who the real warrior and king were.
angry Denethor noises
Would any citizens of Gondor in the time of the war of the ring with the exception of denethor be able to identify Aragorn as thorongil? Would the citizens have remember thornogil after so many years? I wonder if faramir and boromir would have heard stories of him.
Tolkien seems to have most of not all leaders be relatively competent as warriors - there are a few exceptions but if they have a failing it’s usually in character.
I was going to say there was a character who was lame, Brandir the Lame - a Chieftain of the Haladin. However, I was doing some searching to remind myself of this...he ends up killing some dude anyway, although he is killed by Turin after telling him that his sisterwife was dead, but given Turin is also prophesised to kill Morgoth I don't think we can hold that against him too much.
I mean in a world where war is constant and there are angels and demons, dragons and giant spiders you would probably put quite a bit of focus into fighting ability - and hope you don’t come across someone with a tragic back story who will roll right over you
To be fair, I don't think war is any more constant in Tolkien than it is in real life aha...unfortunately!
But yeah, when your military technology doesn't really develop in thousands of years, I can see the culture becoming much more embedded.
If anything it would seem to have degraded, or at least the men fighting are definitely less that what there ancestors were - another thing that seems to be the same for the elves and dwarves as well perhaps? Elves might just be due to most of the noldor dying off or leaving middle earth, but the dwarves sounded a lot tougher in the silmarillion - weren’t even dragons scared of their war masks and were killed by their axes in the first age?
All the races dwindle eventually.
That’s what it must’ve been like in the dark ages, knowing of Roman Centurions compared to the Templar Knights would’ve been a laughable downgrade.
Turin is just a man, he bleeds like any other. The reason he is chosen to slay Morgoth is because of the tragic events of his life that took place.
I mean, I wasn't being serious with the Morgoth comment. But in seriousness, Turin is one of the greatest warriors of legend, not just some random dude.
Second only to Hurin.
He slaughtered entire battalions of tomatoes 🍅
Just because those were mini tomatoes.
He never even came to the idea to boil them, mash them or stick them in a stew. Just go at them like an animal.
I, too, like my tomatoes raw and wriggling.
I think Denethor and Smeagol share similar food tastes, would be interesting for them to share a meal.
Big fans of ceviche and gazpacho then?
That scene was so gross in the movie 😂 they really did book denethor dirty 🤦🏻♂️
It straight up makes me want to eat tomatoes
He wished it had been the bigger tomatoes who survived and came back.
Wasn't that a bowl of red grapes? Oh well, it seems like I should watch the entire extended edition trilogy again.
Almost certainly, Tolkien liked to write his monarchs as skilled military men. I know Denethor isn't technically a monarch but he functions as one.
Agreed with this, I think there are a few examples of leaders who were weak and ineffectual in Tolkien's histories but by and large it's people who were different variations of mighty warrior/wise men and usually if something goes wrong it's as a result of bad luck or a devious exploitation of their one weakness even if they're otherwise quite strong leaders.
I have a feeling that there was maybe one or two in the First Age, but I can't think of anyone who just royally fucked up without having any redeeming qualities. Even Earnil II was lauded as a great warrior and military leader until he stupidly went to Morgul Vale to get fucked over
We're told in the books by Gandalf that Faramir, not Boromir, was most like Denethor. So we can assume Denethor was at least as good as Faramir as a leader of men and strategist.
Faramir is also a great warrior though. Being the father of both, we can assume Denethor was skilled aswell.
Exactly. We hear about Faramir's skills from Beregond.
In his youth, Denethor II was indeed a skilled and valiant warrior. Described as tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many generations, Denethor was noted for his wisdom, foresight, and prowess in battle . His martial capabilities were recognized and respected, although his pride and rivalry with Thorongil (Aragorn in disguise) sometimes overshadowed his military achievements in the eyes of others .
He conquered osgiliath in his youth
There's plenty of talks of him being a skilled leader and strategist.
But no real evidence of his personal fighting ability beside wearing chainmail 24/7
I believe he's a capable fighter, but nothing beyond an average soldier. Very skilled at leading his soldiers, and will do so from the front. But he won't be getting a huge body count like Boromir would
In Tolkien the leaders are almost always skilled warriors, especially those of noble bloodlines like Denethor.
Also given that both his sons were great warriors, Denethor probably was aswell. Not as good as Boromir even in his prime, but certainly skilled and far beyond a normal soldier. I would assume young Denethor would beat Theoden for example.
Theoden will easily win this battle thanks to his bravery, after which Denethor will want to commit suicide, taking several of his soldiers with him.
Imagine fighting off Sauron for something like 30 years. And he did better than SARUMAN the one you're claiming Theoden bested, despite also coming under his spell much like Saruman did towards Sauron. Denethor kept control over his kingdom unlike these two.
He did not retain much control over his kingdom. Through the palantir, Sauron manipulated him and transmitted information that mixed truth with lies. This is no longer complete control.
And most importantly, all these years Sauron did not conduct particularly active military operations. When the greatest danger truly threatened Gondor, Minas Tirith survived thanks to Gandalf, Aragorn and Theoden.
And when Gandalf pointed out to him that he was obliged to defend Gondor, Denethor did not listen to him. But Theoden, despite his painful condition, found the strength to listen to Gandalf and get out of the darkness and into the light.
Watch Theoden, or Gandalf crumble after 30 years of battle against Sauron. We know he made quick work of Saruman.
Denethor is no coward. Especially young Denethor, since his mind is not broken by constant struggle and trauma.
Theoden's mind in those days was all the more unbroken by either Saruman or Grima. He is truly a great warrior.
Of course, so it's down to their bodies and training not their minds. And Denethor is of a more powerful bloodline, his family has better fighters, I assume he is aswell.
There is little information about this. But Theoden's son is a hero and he fought valiantly before dying. The nephew and niece of King Rohan are also very strong and excellent warriors. So it was a glorious and strong family. They accomplished more feats.
His bravery is certainly talked up, he's described as both valliant and dauntless. Plus he's a very tall Númenorian, not someone you want to fight generally. I can't imagine he'd neglect his training in war.
Lol what the actual F I literally just watched this scene 30 seconds ago and glanced down at my phone to look at reddit. What a coincidence. P.s. I barely ever watch the movies
You really ought to read the book on understand this character. The character in the films is a cartoonish caricature of the tragic yet noble character of tolkien’s creation.
He was second only to Thorongil. 😉
I have no skills but someone really should post somthing simular with this picture and after about 3-4 sec make him smile suddenly
In the Appendicies, it mentions Denethor viewed Thorongil (Aragorn) as a rival, but thus doesn't have to mean he was a military man. Just to play devil's advocate a little, in Lord of the Rings, it's emphasised how Denethor was a great scholar with a powerful mind. Little is said in the appendices of Denethor ever leading men, perhaps as sole heir he wasn't allowed so remained untested. Gondor itself had a tendency to revere scholars, but it's need was for great warriors, so it maybe that the two represented two 'rival disciplines', and because he was shackled, Denethor resented the renown that Thorongil had the chance to win but was denied him. I think it's safe to say Denethor was a very competent strategist of war, but as a soldier/warrior, he would have been mediocre due to lack of real-life experience in combat.
This doesn't answer your question, but your question made me look up a different question.
Turns out Aragorn and Denethor were very close in age, 87 and 89 respectively.
Yes, annals were written about how fearsomely he gutted tomatoes - the big ones and even the small ones.
Only thing we can tell for sure from the sources is that he is terrible at eating tomatoes.
There is that one line from the appendices:
And, lo, Denethor did pinch yet another [tomato] that long had rested, like a gem amongst lesser stones, twixt lettuce and crouton in his tureen, raising it thus between thumb and forefinger to his quavering lip, only then to gnaw at it and eject its contents upon chin and robe alike.
When I tell you how many tomatoes that man destroyed….
People are quick to dismiss the corrupting influence of Sauron via the Palantir, Denithor II was great, mind and body, until his fall.
My understanding is that he was once a very great man and a mighty warrior but he spent too long staring down the barrel of the Palantir. That he was unswayed by Sauron, despite looking upon him for years, is proof of his strength. It did however leave him full of paranoia and despair for his people. It also aged him prematurely.
You haven’t heard the legend of the Scourge of the Lycopersicum?
They made him so overtly evil and unlikeable in the movies
This is some cult of Denethor, a man who nevertheless turned out to be a selfish and coward and led his warriors to the grave, trying to drag his son there too. Even if thousands of people vote against it, it's true.
I am sorry for the real heroes who fought to the last drop of blood. They don't get that kind of love.
A true warrior is recognized especially well when he loses. Someone chooses a fight, even a hopeless one. And someone acts like Denethor.
He was a great tactician and held the forces of Mordor at bay for decades. He had enough willpower to use the palantir extensively. In the book there's a "revelation" during a conversation with Pippin that despite being old and tired (he's described physically similarly to Gandalf) he's wearing an armour and sword 24/7. So it's a solid assumption to believe that he was a pretty decent warrior, yeah.
He was a piece of shit 😂
Yes. He was very similar to Boromir
Mediocre at best
He was second only to Aragorn which is the root of why he hates both him and Faramir.
Gondor is modeled even more directly on the European Middle Ages than other parts of Middle-earth, including typical knights, castles etc.
In medieval Europe it was customary for kings and princes to go into battle at the head of their armies and all nobles, from royalty down to simple knights, were trained from an early age to become professional warriors. That was an important part of their life. (Similar to samurai in Japan.)
I don't know whether Denethor was a particularly gifted warrior or a talented general, but he was certainly as well trained for these tasks as one could be and would have been actively involved in many battles in his youth.
he is a politician at least a good strategist my on the field i really doubt it could be a real warrior
Hia sons are Boromir and Faramir. Denethor was probably a great warrior in his youth, even if he did not take to the battlefield much in his later years.
Denethor isn't so old that he couldn't lead from the front like Théoden if he wanted to slash was good at it, so I doubt it's ever been his preferred way. He is a skilled general though, even if he doesn't personally fight (more so in the books than the films).
I know this isn’t the question but he’s such a toxic parent. Can’t stand him! His face just makes me mad (actor did a very good job ofc)
Mans sleeps in full armor with his sword belted
The middle earth equivalent of keeping that thang on him.
I’d say yes, even if the enemy crippled the will of the son of Ecthelion, he was still of the blood of Numenor, and probably was skilled even in his old age.
Professional eater.
Probably average but is assured that his worst was still better than Faramir's best
we know he was not a skilled tomato eater.
He's from Gondor ALL warriors are at least decent.
Yeh hold up I heard that Denethor II was relatively young but using the palantir made him look mega old... he died at the age of 89?
In addition to some of the other great references in this thread, wasn't Denethor a Dunedain as well? That had to have afforded him some serious combat abilities.
He was kind of impressive in that he could withstand Sauron to a degree that Saruman could not. Yes he was driven mad but he never fell to temptation like Saruman did.
He was not a warrior, but a bishop, with genius level intelect. He discovered that a Palantir can be used to observe parallel Middle Earths. When his son Petir dies, he crosses to one of those parallel worlds using dark sorcery and kidnaps Boromir. That's why he loves Boromir more than Faramir.
Denethor was pretty great at everything he was an exemplary man who would've been an invaluable asset to the kingdom under Aragorn and was a great Leader for decades
Denethor should have went to Rivendell to join the fellowship in place of either of his sons. I can imagine him throwing tomatoes at trolls and telling everyone to “abandon their posts” in Moria.
Probably not; He had little to no experience of war: "I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my long fathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace".
This. But here it is absolutely impossible to tell the truth about Denethor. A strange role model.
It seems to me that he was not like that. He himself compared himself to Sauron, who was not a warrior, but only sent troops.
It is in the warrior's blood that he will fight for his city if the enemy attacks.
Even in complete despair, a good warrior will seek death in battle.
But Denethor ended too pitifully.
In addition, during Denethor's life, Sauron accumulated strength and searched for his ring. It is unlikely that he took active military action.
The fact that Denethor slept in armor does not indicate his military skill.
He compared himself to Sauron at that point of the story, when he was already old. There is not much evidence of what he was in his youth as a leader.
Was he older than the valiant King Théoden?
Yes, significantly older. Theoden was 71 when he died, Denethor was 89.
And at that age, he clung to power and tried to interfere with the rightful king.
As was the legal precedent set by his ancestor Pelendur. Denethor has every right, and I don't blame him for not wanting to step aside for the heir of a family who failed to hold Arnor together. Aragorn has to prove himself worthy, not the other way around.
It's not Aragorn's fault. This happened long before he was born. He was very valiant in all battles and proved this long before coming to Gondor.
It takes more than a brave warrior to be king of Gondor. Aragorn does eventually prove himself, but I absolutely don't blame Denethor for opposing him, he has the legal right and precedent. He isn't doing anything wrong.
He did something bad when he died. He didn’t have the courage to die in battle, but he couldn’t even commit suicide alone, so as not to set anyone up.
They were in different positions. Theoden had no other option but to fight when he did. At Helm's Deep he does not enter combat until the last charge and at Pelennor he was leading his warriors in a desperate effort.
Meanwhile Denethor was balancing his leading role with fighting Sauron will for any minimal advantage he could get. Fighting in the front lines would have been counterproductive to his strategy. Yet (until he snaped) he was ready to fight till the end
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I think somewhere (maybe the appendices?) there’s a bit about Denethor viewing Aragorn (at the time known as Thorongil) as somewhat of a rival in leading soldiers of Gondor in battles. So we’d have to sort of assume that Denethor would have been (like Boromir and Faramir) a fairly skilled soldier and military leader in his youth.