I agree it was not very well thought out or planned but she was 15.And she wasn't very wrong about House elves liking their situations because they didn't know any better.They didn't have any rights at all.
Not all elves were perhaps treated badly but we have seen them being punished for things they have no control over.
I mean to be fair it’s wayyy more complicated than “listening” to them. She’s right about the core issue. Dobby is a house elf that wants to be free. To just write him off as completely one of a kind is irresponsible af because we’re talking about slavery.
We also see that other house elves look down on house elves to even talk about wanting freedom which for a race that can be completely controlled and that we see punished harshly on multiple occasions just feels kind of iffy.
House elves imo are poorly written for what they’re supposed to be. They’re “helpful” fey creatures, but unlike most fey they take nothing and receive work and pain. It’s just fancy, plot convenient, magical slavery.
Irl at the very least house elves would need protections from being beaten and punished. Animals have more rights than house elves. That’s the core issue imo.
I actually think house elves are well written. They present a difficult ethical dilemma, similar to the “cow that wants to be eaten” scenario. Using SPEW as comic relief was a mistake though and undermined the idea.
I don’t think SPEW was for comic relief, or if it was it was the least funny joke in the series. My interpretation is that JKR was showing the power of (or evil of) institutional thinking and “we’ve always done it this way” versus the power of morally good outsiders to effect change. Even though Hermione failed in her wizarding world changing mission, she proved to Harry/Ron that she’s a good person, not just a good or useful friend. Harry can see has more moral integrity than any of the purebloods, so he's not just fighting voldemort to avenge his parents, save his own life or because muggle-borns make capable witches/wizards but because they are human, capable of showing humanity and morally deserve saving (perhaps more so than the arrogant and racist purebloods). it really drives the racism message home. hermione, being muggle-born and inferior, could choose to 'punch down' and revel in making herself feel better and reinforce the hierarchy by seeing house-elves as inferior even to her, but she doesn't. This is really a lot less common than people realise. Even Harry, bullied and forced into servitude for most of his life, doesn't mind enslavement when the elves seem happy and he gets a warm bed and a full stomach. There’s a really good message in doing the unpopular difficult thing because you know at your core it’s the right thing, and also in sticking by your friends when they do something well-meaning but embarrassing. Harry needed to learn this to both stick to his story in OoTP and stand up to the Ministry.
But the issue is that’s not a great argument either. Sure we can say “what if cows want to be eaten in this made up scenario?” But in real life, cows don’t like to die. Thats how it is. Why make bullshit up asking if they wanted to? To talk about “ethics?”
Then, what if in the cow scenario there was an intelligent cow that was like “nah fam, I don’t want to be eaten.” The entire cow that wants to be eaten thing hinges on that cows want to be eaten so it maybe “ok.” Well, not all the house elves want to be slaves. We see one that explicitly doesn’t. Morally the cow that wants to be eaten scenario says that it would be wrong to eat the cows if they wanted to be eaten.
Besides all that you mentioned is again pretty made up because no animals that we know of act that way, but also really fucking simplified. Behavior can be modified over time through harsh methods and generally speaking just because someone says they want you to do something terrible to them doesn't mean you can. The vast majority of people would say it's not cool to enslave or murder someone even if they "ask for it." Again, laws against abuse and all that.
I gotta be honest im not following your first two paragraphs.
This may be unpopular but after rereading it, im not so sure dobby didnt want to be a slave. From what i can tell he just wanted to choose his own master, kind of like kreacher. The dynamic, you can sugar coat it as much as you want but harry was acting as dobby's master. I think of it this way. When the slaves in the south were freed what did they do? Some fled up north but majority of them went to work right back on the farm they were freed from. So were they truly free after spending their life being trained for 1 thing? If someone tells you that you are free but, you continue to do the same thing are you free? I dont know, im sure they didnt feel free (The majority atleast). Then we arrive at dobby. So familure with being a slave he sunk right back into his comfort zone with harry. Everyone he talked too kind of understood. Dumbledore and a few others were already aware of his plight. He wouldnt be able to transfer that freedom really to any other area of the wizarding world besides hogwarts from what we know. Basically still on the plantation.
You can say they were friends, but 2 things. Dobby would have no idea or be able to tell what the relationship between friends would look like because hes only had 1 type of relationship, and 2nd dobby never said no. I get harry may of neved asked him to do anything unreasonable. He did follow malfoy for like a week str8 without sleep. That doesnt sound like a friends request to me. I know harry's intent but dobby's willingness to do it is what im focused on. everything dobby did is something he wouldve done for a master he liked. There was never anything but yes when it came to harry. Kreacher showed us that house elves can be nuanced in the orders. He followed every one of them without question.
Its a tough question. I think most of the freed elves would just go back to work for the families theyve been working for, especially because they were only under rich or well known families with the gold to pay them. that doesnt mean they shouldnt be freed though. As a society problem i think it falls under how much evil do we allow so that we can we can move on to the next issue (real world) and we cant have them running about as magical and potentially dangerous enemies (wizarding world).
I cut hermoine some slack because she was spread thin but still trying. I dont think she was thinking about the what comes next part.
Being able to choose who you work for is not slavery. Dobby didn’t want to be a slave. He went around looking for work specifically from someone who wouldn’t make him enter into a contract. Wild af to say what you said tbh. He made his own socks and wore them like a badge to showcase his freedom.
Just because he still wanted to work for cheap for under much better conditions doesn’t mean he “wanted to be a slave.”
The southern freed slaves got to choose who they worked for and it was the old masters who had them in bondage. Doesnt feel much like a choice especially when no one else will take you.
His working for cheap isnt the problem that i spoke about. I didnt really even talk about his work at hogwarts. It was mainly about his relationship to harry. I dont think you read my full response but agree to disagree.
I mean my point was that Dobby openly says he doesn’t want to be a slave. It doesn’t matter if he “acts” like a slave by your standards. Hes doing it by choice, and that’s what matters.
“He kind of acts like a slave anyway!” Is very very dangerous territory.
thats not what i said and that wasnt my point.
Not even that fancy.
So a 15 years old doing what actual adults aren't capable of doing (you can see it on daily basis). Don't get me wrong, of course you are right, but she was a teen, a very smart one, but still a teen.
Let’s also remember that above average “book smart” intelligence doesn’t always translate to above average emotional intelligence or social intelligence. Her brain was first rate, and as a 15-year-old, had another +/-10 years of developing to do overall.
Also true. Some very smart people have the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon
I'm not saying she needs to be perfect at fifteen, I'm just saying that she clearly meant well but (yes, like any kid) had more to learn than she realized about advocating for a marginalized group, and I'd imagine that she did eventually get better on that front as she got older.
What I meant was that I think is better this way, with her making mistakes instead of being too smart to be real. It was more an opinion on the Rowling decission on this end than an opinion on the character per se.
Sorry if it came up somehow harsh
As a yanqui; lo siento
FFS not this again. Latinx was not created by white people, it was invented by non-binary Hispanic people for themselves.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-01-27/op-ed-latinx-white-elites-marginalized-creators
That doesn't change the fact that it's mostly used by white people to refer to binary Hispanic people who largely reject the term.
They'll never listen. It doesn't matter to them.
Exactly! I think that was the point of this plotline! I think that this storyline existed in the books to show the importance of listening to the people you are standing up for and not talking over them!
She had good intentions. She just didn't have all the information and was going about things the wrong way.
She was also too black and white about it. Trying to help them get free made sense but she didn’t think about what would happen if she achieved that goal. Where would they go and what would they do? Now, that’s not meant to really criticize her, since idk any 15 year old who would be able to come up with a nuanced approach to really solve the issue. Rather, it highlights the issue that the only person working on this (that we know of) is a 15 year old student.
I agree but as I said,she was 15. She didn't plan things out in a way that could actually help the elves.And I think one other reason might be because Hermione's knowledge comes mainly from books,but this was a topic where people didn't see anything wrong with what was going on. So she reached her own conclusions.
I think saying "she was 15" is missing the point. the vast majority of people aren's at all saying SPEW makes her a worse person overall, which is where it would be more logical to bring up the fact that she's young. People are criticizing the specific actions, and actions are equally good or bad regardless of age, it's how those actions affect your perception of the person where age should be taken into account.
The thing is she did have information. She had access to house elves and a living house elf who spiraled into depression once she was freed. She had the community she wanted to help at her fingertips and just chose to ignore them.
I think it wouldn't annoy people as much if she wasn't treated as though she was right about everything else. She never really admits to fault.
She had access to information, that she chose not to use, because she believed she was already right. I think that humanized her somewhat in the books, because she wasn't absolutely perfect about everything.
She was wrong specifically about the Hogwarts house elves. She assumes they're mistreated or overworked, when that's clearly not the case. She takes Dobby and Winky as the rule instead of the exception.
She takes Dobby and Winky as the rule instead of the exception.
She considers exclusively Dobby, because he fits her bias, and absolutely ignores Winky's experience.
I think she was quite influenced by Winky too.She realized the elves are just supposed to do whatever their masters say even if they are afraid to do it or die doing it,
Except at the end of the book we find out that nothing we saw of Winky at the start of GoF was true. She was afraid, yes, but she begged Crouch to do it. She wasn't slow because she was fighting the enchantment, she was slow because she was dragging Jr. away. Hermione would get that information as well. Then we see how freedom impacted Winky. Hermione chooses to ignore all that because it doesn't support her self-righteous quest. She's only influenced by experiences that confirm her view and dismisses everything else.
Yes of course. But do you not think it it worse knowing that Mr crouch chose to humiliate and disown Winky knowing that she was technically bound to obey Crouch jr.
As for her reaction...doesn't it further confirms that the elves are brought up as such that they need to blame themselves for things that are not their fault.
she was technically bound to obey Crouch jr.
Was she though? Considering the power house elves wield, Jr. would've been a fool not to use her the moment he broke free from his father. And we know he's not a fool.
doesn't it further confirms that the elves are brought up as such that they need to blame themselves for things that are not their fault.
Not really. People do that all the time, especially in a situation like that.
I should think so. Kreachet was able to take orders from Bellatrix in ootp
Kreachet was able to take orders from Bellatrix in ootp
He was able to do Bellatrix a favour as long as it didn't contradict his actual orders from his master.
Winky is not the exception, winky is the example of what happens when a house elf who’s life is service is fired from their job. Had Hermiones hat plan worked as she wanted, she would have caused this is many Hogwarts house elfs. Dobby is the only example of an elf that wants to be free
If Dobby, as a free house elf, can work at Hogwarts, then the freed house elves (assuming they could even be freed by a student and not the Headmaster) could also do so. And Winky had a lot more going on than just being freed, we don't know what would happen with other elves.
With Dumbledore and what is about the next Headmaster?
Which clearly shows how bad the system is.
Does Dobby really want to be free? If Harry asked him? Dobby is overjoyed when Harry lets Dobby shadow Draco. I don't think Harry pays him for it.
To a degree it doesn't matter. They remain slaves.
They're literally property dude.
Slave - "a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person."
Having better treated slaves doesn't make it okay.
iirc the house elves in hogwarts don’t get paid either, right? so yeah, they’re still slaves. even if they’re “treated nicely”.
This got me thinking - should slavery be allowed in our world, if slaves would be told since their childhood how amazing slavery is, and so that they would sincerely believe that they should be slaves, based on their race? Should we start opening slave schools to return this amazing social system? I think black people fit perfectly, they were slaves for a long period of time, so we can raise them with a belief that they are lesser than other races and that they should serve white people. Or we can make it the other way around. Either way - HP elves model would work awesome, just like humans are treating elves. I mean, can an elf, that doesn't want to be a slave, like Dobby, attend Hogwarts, get a magic wand, work in the Ministry of magic? We should also remove alternatives for slaves, like there are no alternatives for elves in HP.
You assume that this situation with the house-elves was actively brought about.
But house elves (among other things) could be some kind of magical robot, and Dobby is a little crazy.
Or they could have been bred, and only became intelligent later. (And that the intelligence is disapppears again if the house-elves are released.)
After all even animal, in the wizarding world, have more intelligence than they should.
Or they could have been bred, and only became intelligent later. (And that the intelligence is disapppears again if the house-elves are released.)
We can't assume that because we see elves that are freed from slavery and intelligence doesn't disappear.
After all even animal, in the wizarding world, have more intelligence than they should.
Oh, I've seen that one before, in the 86 anime. There where a race of people who declared all other human races to be pigs. And they always said - HUMANS have rights, but the other races are not humans - they are pigs. The same thing was happening in human history all the time.
But house elves (among other things) could be some kind of magical robot, and Dobby is a little crazy.
Maybe black people are some kind of aliens, and the ones who don't want to be slaves are a little crazy, can we assume that?
House-elves are not human.
You are not turnig a human into a pig, but you are trying to say a pig feels like a human.
The same thing was happening in human history all the time.
House-elves are not humans if they say there are happy, why don't you believe it.
When a runner runs (so I've been told) the brain relases homones and the runner gets high.
It is inexplicable to me that sport can make addictive.
Now throw magic into the mix.
My mother-in-law always tells me, how great it was, to work day and night (without pay) for her family.
House-elves are not humans if they say there are happy, why don't you believe it.
My mother-in-law always tells me, how great it was, to work day and night (without pay) for her family.
That part is accurate to our history. There were many slaves that were actively defending slavery and saying that they want to be slaves. But somehow slavery was forbidden. How do you think, why? Why don't we bring back slavery?
House-elves are not human.
You are not turnig a human into a pig, but you are trying to say a pig feels like a human.
The same thing can be said about any race. Black people sre not human. Jews are not human. You don't realise the obvious? The fact that elves are from a different race doesn't change the fact that they are sentient beings.
I can't believe I am explaining to someone why enslaving a different race isn't normal. Can't believe I've met a slavery defender.
The house-elves are not humans, there are not a race of humans. They are not a religion, they are not prisoners of war, they are not a minority.
My mother-in-law is not a slave she is a wife. She is over 80.
But I could you give a whole list of her peers, who have worked themselves to pieces for their families (and are still doing so, without pay, without thanks) and some of them are still doing so.
That was up to 50% of the population and most of them were statified with their lifes.
I am against slavery. Also against hidden ones (for example the chidren who sew our cheap jeans)
But I am absulutely against paternalism, against people to tell other people how to be happy.
Dobby is not human( which he proves to us, when he almost kills a child, to protect him.)
House-elves are happy when they work, maybe it is like a drug,maybe it is magic, but if you take that away from them, they are unhappy.
Does Dobby look particularly happy? He has being looking for a job for over a year, so he can finally work again. But, for example, Dobby is happy when he can shadow Draco for Harry.
Kreacher blossoms as he can finally fulfill Regulus' job.
The fact that elves are from a different race doesn't change the fact that they are sentient beings.
All humans are similar in most important things.
But you assume that it is the same for completely different beings.
And when they contradict you, you say they are brainwashed and/or stupid.
Are house-elves intelligent "adults" or are they stupid children. Can someone finally ask the house-elves?
Simply saying that they are brainwashed is cheap.
Octopi and Dolphins are sentient beings, can be considered races. Does that mean we should force them to live and behave like humans?
Cats and dogs are sentient. Does that mean they should be paid for and jobs they do? Should I make my cats get a job so they can pay rent?
Sentience does not equal being human. Just because something is sentient does not mean that they will think or behave like humans. A sentient being is not going to have the exact same wants and desires or viewpoints as humans.
Hermione getting hate on this sub? Say it ain't so /s
She's not getting hate tho. Just slightly criticized
To be fair some people take it too far
The fundamental issue is Hermione did not really understand the nature of the house elf. Furthermore she just launched into it like a climate change rally throwing a temper tantrum and gluing your hands to the walls and the concrete rather than prove their point
Well to be fair the climate change point has been proven. The problem is nobody is listening.
But throwing a temper tantrum over it really is not enduring anyone to your side
I personally have no issue with SPEW or even most of the things she does, for me it'll always just be an issue of her crossing the line with trying to free them without their knowledge.
Good cause, bad name
Saying the House Elves “didn’t know any better” is incredibly arrogant and patronizing/infantilizing. For starters, it’s applying human standards and sensibilities to non-human entities. Secondly it’s assuming that you are smarter and better than them.
Imagine if a race of non-human nomadic beings was in Earth and decided for everyone that working jobs, staying in one area and sleeping in static houses was slavery and that we “didn’t know better” when we didn’t want to give up our houses.
Imagine if someone decides your job is slavery and actively tries to get you fired so you would be “free”.
Hermione wanting to make sure House Elves weren’t abused or mistreated was, and is, a noble goal. But trying to force them to change to what she thought was best and not even bothering to speak to them is where she went wrong.
We don’t even know if House Elves are routinely abused or ordered to punish themselves. Maybe the Malfoys and Blacks were outliers.
Edited to add missing word.
ultimately it was bad writing from JK. turning "house" elves from a whimsical fairy tale into a slavery allegory is something that merits its own story, making it such a throwaway subplot always felt bizarre to me, even as a kid. "they enjoy being slaves!" is such a bold choice from the writer it was confounding to me why it was never expanded upon.
I think it was even worse writing than I used to think. Much later in life I found that SPEW, The Society for Promoting the Employment of Women, was a historical women's rights group in the UK. Maybe it's a bigger thing in the UK, but I bet it's still a pretty obscure reference for a kids book.
But the likening their position makes a lot more sense if it's supposed to be an allegory for women as second class citizens and dependant on their husbands than slavery, which is what most of us got out of it.
It makes more sense.
For a modern girl to find out that her grandmother (or woman in different parts of the world) still lives according to different rules and values.
That at home the father had the say first and then the husband.
That was Rowling's response to people who said - you know, justifying SLAVERY isn't a good idea. And just like that, Dobby became an exception, that was treated poorly by Malfoys, all slaves besides Dobby just love to be slaves, and slavery in general isn't a problem if slave owners aren't threating their property too bad. Oh, and anyone who is trying to end slavery should be ridiculed, what are they, stupid or something? I mean, there are a lot of positive things about slavery. Think about it - you can force a slave to do whatever task you want, you can kill or torture a slave without any consequences, you can rape a slave daily, do all other amazing things with it because it isn't a living being - it is a slave, your property.
I’m actually currently listening to GoF and I can’t even for the life of me understand what she was going for by making it seem like elves like being enslaved and there’s only one character bothered by it .
The fact that elves like being enslaved could be understood if they live in a racist society that view them as lesser beings, where they literally can't do anything else besides that, because noone would give them jobs. It isn't uncommon that slaves thought that it is ok to be slaves in real world too. This argument was frequently used in pro-slavery campaings.
The real problem is that noone cares besides Hermione and everyone RIDICULE her for TRYING TO END SLAVERY. You like Dumbledore? Well, he think that slavery is ok as long as slaves are not treated too harshly. Harry? He ridicule Hermione and he is using his own slave. They live in such dystopian society where slavery is completely normalised.
Yes but for the ELVES to be happy about it too ? That seems so out of touch . But I agree for most of the characters to be like oh not my problem I can KIND of get it because that’s absolutely what happened with real slavery but I would say the number of slaves that were happy about being enslaved would have had to have been infinitesimally small . And let’s be real it’s not like Hermione was just like don’t work she was just like hey you could get paid , you should have perks and they basically avoided her .
There are lots of historical examples of slaves IN America who would argue in favor of slavery, so there is historical precedent, but it does seem like a pretty fucking stupid move when you're writing a BOOK FOR CHILDREN, since 13 year olds are not known for being the most in touch with morally complex situations.
I’m sure there were because there’s always going to be someone on an opposing side but they way the elves were presented it’s definitely the rule not the exception and yes especially because it was a book made for children . That’s why I say I don’t understand her thought process for this one lol she clearly liked to give some nuance to a lot of characters or even species but this choice was strange . Pure blood mania ? Bad . “ Half breeds “ used in a negative connotation? Bad . But enslavement ? Oh yeah that’s awesome lol .
Maybe elves generally are just very... kinky... 🤷
Lmaooo I will now use this as canon . And the way Jim Dale says Crouch “ needs his Winky “ always gave weird vibes so this checks out . Thank you
Hate where?
meh her heart is in the right place
Only thing I didn't like about their situations, like Goblins, is that neither of them were allowed wands.
Which, I guess doesn't matter since they are highly skilled without them, but why the restriction? I'm assuming those laws came after the Goblin Wars.
I mean we see a lot of yourselves being beaten for being forced to play punish themselves even. I think that’s by far the worst part no? Besides the slavery stuff which no matter how you look at it was true for Dobby.
Yeah, but is that just elves' nature to be quirky like that, or are all elves under some sort of man-made enchantment to force them to obey wizards and beat themselves and such?
I mean there’s obviously some sort of magic that binds them because Dobby was forced to stay and turned on the Molfoys instantly to once given clothes.
No creature in the world, or world of HP is “quirky like that” besides the house elves anyway. They’re a self destructive and self hating species. Now either they’re unique little cute slavery wanting things, or they’ve been trained to hate themselves like a lot of real world minorities and enslaved groups.
It isn't covered much how all that works with elves, how to cause an elf to be bound to a family or what consent there is prior to service, etc.
We don't really ever see an elf become enslaved, only the conditions during the enslavement.
I think the worst thing might be that they can;t choose to not do something ordered to them even tough their life depends on it
She's rightfully getting hate for her double standards. She pretended to be all about the rights of magical creatures but called Firenze a horse.
It continues to disturb me how the fandom complains about Hermione being anti slavery.
B-but! You see! According to JK Rowling, in the HP universe, house elves enjoy being slaves! So clearly Hermione is bad and this is not at all a result of some really weird and bad writing decisions on the author’s part!
I mean, I don’t think we were ever supposed to see Elf Slavery as a good thing just because it’s socially acceptable in this world.
Doctor Who does the same trope with the Ood, a race of slaves who are “just so happy” to be enslaved. Just like here, there’s more to it than meets the eye.
Maybe, but it's an interesting summary of peoples' intentions for social justice.
This example kind of highlighted the fact that she wasn't really doing it for the betterment of the house elves, she was doing it because it made her feel better about the situation.
Ultimately, this is a lot of social justice in our real world. It's not actually about the people the justice is supposed to be for, it's about the benefit of the people providing said justice.
I never understood why the other characters ridiculed her so much, especially Harry who more or less lived like a slave for his childhood. Yes she could have hone different about it, but she was one person in a system staked against her and the "slaves"/house elves liked being in their situation. If they had some kind of bond for magic it would have at least made sense but like that it just seemd like they never experienced a life out of slavery and didn't want to stand up for themselves. Dobby was a total outlier there.
This is just my personal opinion from a meta perspective; I think it was J.K. Rowling making a dig at "social justice warriors". It wasn't intended to be well recieved, you were intended to laugh at it and call her stupid.
Nope, Dumbledore agreed with her every time. The best thing about the books is that it realistically captures human nature and progress.
Dumbledore in the end of every Book is the voice of reason that is supposed to show us right from wrong. There are clues throughout every Book that should make you feel a certain way towards a certain character or topic, then in the end the talk with Dumbledore reveals the actual truth.
This happens from Book 1 on and us thinking Snape is the villain and then learning that we were wrong all along and he was actually saving Harry. It happens in every Book.
When it comes to elves, Dumbledore agrees with Hermione every time.
Even after all that Kreacher did and say and after he caused Sirius to die, after you're supposed to hate Kreacher throughout the Book and everyone treating Hermione as crazy for sympathizing with him, Dumbledore tells Harry in the end that Hermione was right.
If you want to know Rowling's views, it's in Dumbledore's words at the end of every Book.
But Dumbledore does not release the house-elves!
Why would he when it would be against their will. Everything needs time and most house elves weren't ready yet.
So he didn't agree with Hermione.
I think Hermione's passion for social justice is a good thing, but at that point in her life she needs to learn to actually speak with, and be willing to listen to, the people she's advocating for instead of assuming they need to be told what's right for them or tricked into accepting it.