www.wlrn.org/environment/2024-05-17/sea-levels-rising-faster-south-florida
Sea levels are rising faster. Here’s what South Florida can expect
Their plan is to ignore it completely, and strike any mention of climate change from the record.
The plan is to ignore it completely, and ask FEMA to bail them out.
My favourite article about this was written nine years ago: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/12/21/the-siege-of-miami
I asked everyone I met in South Florida who seemed at all concerned about sea-level rise the same question: What could be done? More than a quarter of the Netherlands is below sea level and those areas are home to millions of people, so low-elevation living is certainly possible. But the geology of South Florida is peculiarly intractable. Building a dike on porous limestone is like putting a fence on top of a tunnel: it alters the route of travel, but not necessarily the amount.
“You can’t build levees on the coast and stop the water” is the way Jayantha Obeysekera put it. “The water would just come underground.”
Some people told me that they thought the only realistic response for South Florida was retreat.
Ok, but you can have your buddy's construction company charge big big big money to build a dike and get it funded by the state and feds. Whether it works or not the money still changes hands.
You can bet your ass there will be some scam like that.
See when ice goes into your Coca Cola…… /s
this is what they did in italy 10-15 years ago. despite what all the farmers/scientists were saying.
now look at the price of olive oil.
coffee, cocoa, and olives. the 3 most common crops the most sensitive to changes in temperature.
You forgot blaming it on gays and Joe Biden.
As I understand it, they are in a building boom but new architecture accommodates high water. But with a climate change denier as governor, developers, profit, and business motivations appear to come first.
I did look into it a while ago and the Miami economy runs on the building boom and high rents. If they acknowledge there is a problem than the foreign money that owns all the high rises (as a way to legally launder money) will pull out and there aren’t enough taxes to keep basic services running.
They will go bankrupt if they acknowledge the problem and will lose their election. The Miami government will absolutely ignore the problem until the damage is so great that investors pull out.
There is no way to save Miami even if you tried. They do have some sea walls and they do have a few city blocks being built higher, but the sea water is pushing the potable ground water into the streets. They are losing drinking water. The costs to raise the city is impossibly high.
Selling your home and leaving Miami before the market crashes is your only hope.
Is this why every Florida politician comes off as a sleazy used car salesman?
I think the whole money laundering thing has a lot of explaining power. It’s not about investing, it’s about laundering money and the fact it might not be durable means less
I work for a company that sells perils data (flood, fire, subsidence etc) to global insurers for underwriting purposes. When dealing with climate change deniers, I often come out with a quote I read a few years back: "you may not believe in climate change, but your insurance company does". Insurers are starting to refuse to offer flood insurance in parts of Florida and fire in much of California. Miami is one hurricane-induced storm surge away from catastrophic loss. Unless the Federal government steps in, it will be hard to recover from. Sadly the old adage, privatise profit, socialize loss might enable the ostriches to keep their heads in the sand a while longer, such as Ron DeSantis.
DeSantis just signed a law requiring removal of any mention of climate change from government documents. They also passed a law requiring cities to plan for significantly less sea level rise than is happening. Meanwhile insurance companies are pulling out of the state. The GOP is selling us out in exchange for oil money.
And hes gonna get away with it probably. Him and his high heels.
The plan is denial to push it off to future administration when all of that property becomes worthless
At some point they’ll feign innocence and demand the federal govt bail out the rich people involved. Rest assured that the non-wealthy won’t be helped.
Their plan is to rely on Democrats to put country over politics and bail them out when they need it.
They will complain and point fingers and blame Democrats for their self created problems, then they will line up to suckle on that sweet federal teet supplied willingly by their 'enemies' while deriding us all as groomers and communists.
At what point do we admit they have the better hand? I mean they get their way = their opponents suffer. We get our way, they get good government and support.
Good government and support?
You followed some words with a question mark but didn't say or ask anything directly. Is there a question or point you'd like to argue?
Bloated, ineffective, expensive....and certainly not good. That is government.
Sounds like you’ve got the answers! I’d like a description of cheap, shrunken government that responds effectively to both immediate crisis and long-developing societal/economic issues.
Lol okay.
Selfish, violent, destitution. That is anarchy.
If you have an actual policy issue, spill it, but just saying government = bad is beyond just lazy, it's wrong.
You don't like food stamps? Why? You don't like welfare or SS or Medicare or some actual program? Why?
I'm not going to answer because the answers are boringly easy and simple to look up but I will encourage you to make actual statements and take actual positions.
This guy has a brain worm
They don't care as long as they retire before the unrecoverable disasters start.
Don’t Look Up
Put their head in the sand and attempt to make learning about it illegal.
I don’t disagree with the threat but is it really realistic to expect the entire city to be flooded at 3ft? Check the NOAA SLR Viewer for realistic outcomes.
Yes because you have to think of the tides, storm surges, plus your limestone base, thru which water can rise up from the bottom.
Good point! I’m not an expert in this area at all.
Now you can spread the knowledge.
This is why nations like Tuvalu and Bangladesh are in major trouble, even if they technically would have areas above water, tides and storms will wreck everything.
Just FYI Tuvalu has a Climate Refugee Agreement with Australia for the whole population. That Nation doesn't have much choice.
Ya they are screwed like Maldives.
I’m quoting the article:
Two feet of sea rise by 2060, compared to present-day levels, would be a shock to the system for Miami, where the average elevation is three feet. That’s why local governments — and the state — are spending billions to keep streets dry.
I’m not talking about how much sea level rise we will experience but rather the effect on the city.
Dikes that have to keep getting taller isn’t useful but might be necessary for Miami but what about the land around Miami? It’s not like the land noticeably gets higher outside the city?
This same issue affects whole sections of its coast, the everglade is a swamp because of how close to sea level it is and that extends throughout much of the lower half of the state. Fortifying one city isn’t going to do squat.
No, they voted away climate change recently remember? No more climate change! All is solved!
Realistically any rich city can build dykes to prevent flooding. The real problem is the poor places that can’t.
Dikes don't work for Florida because of geology
With money there is always a technical solution
Not true. All the money in the world can't change geology.
Well New Orleans is also in same problem.
You may remember that New Orleans received a $12,000,000,000 levee system upgrade after hurricane Katrina:
How much green energy would that have bought.
How many years until it needs to be replaced?
Few cities are rich enough to build dykes against 2 meter/century sea level rise
Dutch already have
The Dutch built one that can withstand 2 meters per century?
...sea level wasn't rising that quickly when they built their dikes, so I don't think this is true
Miami is built on limestone. Limestone is porous, and has many many many crevices through which water can bubble up.
Short of actually waterproofing the bedrock, Miami is SOL.
This is key, about the limestone.
The people in charge will be dead by then. Why would they care?
Narrator: “There’s no plan.”
Sell more sea view beach property to rich people
May nature take it back shiftily
Water versus ignorance my bets on the water
If you close your eyes, all your problems go away.
Sooo, how do I short the Miami real estate market?
We live in a satirical bizarro society now, I’d still invest in Miami
Heat humidity bugs hurricanes no insurance flooding awful schools de santis . Get out now.
Desantis just legislated all mention of the term ‘climate change’ away. No one can say it = it no longer exists, duh.
Kidding aside, this is well known, yet FLA remains a top 10 state for interstate migration.
Darwin
It’s going to be wild if we still have the technology we have now and costal cities are just lost to the ocean.
The footage would be eerie.
Plus the groundwater will be infiltrated by sea water making the water undrinkable.
Don’t move to south Florida
User deleted comment
15d
The cost to remove salt from water is very expensive and time consuming.
And the number of people that would have to be serviced is VERY high.
Desalination is ok for emergencies or smaller countries (like Israel has great infrastructure) the problem is we need to get started NOW and the governor is denying is even happening.
It’s just very energy intensive with the current process it is not climate friendly
And if you already live there move out pronto
I was in Miami taking a Lyft somewhere. The driver asked me where I was from. When I told him I was from California he started bagging on the state cause of the fires and earthquakes and floods and riots and homeless. I listen for a bit (all these things are true). The I said “that’s cool, in 10 years you’ll be driving a boat”. He got very quiet.
No offense but I love the justifications of people in California. Always a caveat that everything sucks right before a dig at another region/state 😂
Shhhhhhh you’re not allowed to say “climate change” in Florida either… 💁🏻
Per Florida law it's not climate change anymore, so henceforth any water incursions will be known as "Jesus water".
/s
It will be interesting to watch
It will be very gradual. That's the trouble with human caused climate change. It is slow moving but inexorable, and so it's easy to ignore.
So it’s not really a big deal.
No it is a big deal. When sea level has risen, it is too late to fix it.
Why
Why what? Why flooding preparations have to be made before the flood?
Where is the sea level today? How much increase has been physically measured not modelled? Is there a chance it may not even happen. I would wait and see
Oh, it is happening. There isn't any disagreement about what happens when ocean temps tise (water volume increases) and air temps rise (ice melts).
The change is less than an inch per year, though, do it doesnt seem like much. More frequent high tide flooding and more beach erosion. It isn't like we'll wake up one morning to Miami under water. Our great grandkids will likeky see much of Miami and New Orleans abandoned.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article281202298.html
Good links. Good luck with this problem.
I don't live in Miami. I sure wouldn't want to buy property in Florida now.
How much increase has been physically measured
4.5 mm per year for 2013 to 2022
Everywhere?
Average sea level rise. Sea level rise is not uniform
Have you ever been in a big coastal flood? It’s hard to explain the power. It’s a wild experience. I was a midshipman at the Naval Academy when we were flooded by the Hurricane Isabel storm surge that pushed massive amounts of water up the Chesapeake Bay. Once everything is under 3+ ft of water there is nothing you can do but wait it out and clean up. But what happens if the water level never goes down?
Move away would seem the obvious choice.
Most humans live on coastlines. I think mass migration is going to be a big deal in the coming decades.
Yes. I can see lots of people moving
You also said "Where is the problem"
Not a big deal, just sell the house. And move somewhere higher.
SELL TO WHO? FUCKING AQUAMAN??
LMAO! You got it! That one will never get old. Good old Shapiro
Since 1880, the global sea level has risen 8-9 inches and, between 1993-2021, the sea level has ticked up 3.8 inches, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). According to the latest numbers, In the last 30 years area levels have risen 8 inches.
Don't worry the governor outlawed climate change so it's not happening in Florida
In Miami, beach come to YOU!
Desantis says it doesn’t exist so….
New PR campaign will solve the problem. Visit Miami, the Venice of North America.
Shoulda moved to the mountains
lol, then our livable atmospheric thickness drops below 10 000 feet from smog. Sorry Colorado.
I want to see a boat city like in water world with all of the Miami refugees that would be crazy
We're not going anywhere
RemindMe! 10 years
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Don’t worry! They passed a law outlawing climate change and any mention of it!
That’s disingenuous! Everyone knows that Miami cuisine really sucks and causes abnormal use of the lavatory and subsequently the black water system backs up frequently, as illustrated in the photo.
What to expect? Expect insurance rates to go MUCH higher than they already are (10x? 50x?) for the few people who are able to get insurance at all. Storm damage? You’ll be paying out-of-pocket. Either because you’ll have no insurance, or because the insurance company will go bankrupt or find a reason to deny coverage (sorry, “acts of god” are not covered).
Many people just don’t get it until you spell it out in dollars they’ll have to pay.
This is what happens when the energy source that is actually capable of replacing and surpassing fossil fuels is vilified and suppressed for decades. Primarily in the western nations which are responsible for the majority of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions since the start of the industrial revolution.
A power source capable of delivering abundant, pollution-free, safe, reliable, affordable power with the lowest environmental impact. It's not solar and wind.
Exactly. Said this for years. The only way forward for humanity.
All these comments assume that nothing will be done to adapt, if needed. Levees are a thing, pretty easy to build too. I don't see the Netherlands losing their minds.
pretty easy to build too
Not in Miami
Why? Lol. New orleans has levees and the soil stability there is just as bad if not worse.
Miami is built on limestone, and water seeps easily through limestone.
No amount of levees is gonna stop the water when the water is coming from under your feet
Eh? Your link's about the everglades and marshy/farmland area a bit west of Miami, not what's under Miami itself. (Not from Florida, are you?) These are two very different areas hydrologically.
Here:
The sun’s out, and Miami is flooding without a drop falling from the sky. Why? Due to Miami’s low elevation and porous limestone geology, water wells up from the ground when the water table rises. An average spring rain paralyzes the region with flooded roads, cars, and buildings. Alarmingly, this is becoming a more frequent reality for Miamians.
The article from USGS states that the everglade levees are built on limestone.
It doesn't, a headline on the page that you linked says, "The Everglades sit on top of a bedrock of limestone". That is not the levees. In addition, Miami is on the South Atlantic Coastal Strip, which has different geology than the Everglades
That's definitely not Miami
Can't say why, though.
Worthless oceanfront property
Who knows, maybe millions of robot laborers and materials will be so cheap in a couple of decades they may be able to just build a giant see wall all they way around the peninsula,
Two feet of sea rise by 2060, compared to present-day levels, would be a shock to the system for Miami, where the average elevation is three feet. That’s why local governments — and the state — are spending billions to keep streets dry.
https://sealevel.climatecentral.org/maps/
This Climate Central interactive digital map projects what would be below water in Miami and the rest of the world if the water/sea/tide/storm surge level were at any levels between 0–10 meters (0–32.8 ft) above the high tide line.
If global warming were to melt the Greenland Ice Sheet and the Antarctic Ice Sheet completely, global sea level would rise by an estimated 67.4 meters (223 feet).
Didn't they just pass a law against expecting it?
I had no idea that in the last 80 years sea levels have risen a foot. That's extraordinary.
And current rate (2013-2022) is 4.5 mm per year, 1.5 feet per century. And the rate is accelerating
Thinking more about this.... how could they know that? I mean, if the sea is in constant motion, how would it be possible to measure millimeters per year? I'm not doubting the fact, but I am curious about how they would measure it and know for sure.
from satellite measurements and from tidal gages.
The sea level trends measured by tide gauges that are presented here are local relative sea level (RSL) trends as opposed to the global sea level trend. Tide gauge measurements are made with respect to a local fixed reference on land. RSL is a combination of the sea level rise and the local vertical land motion. The global sea level trend has been recorded by satellite altimeters since 1992 and the latest global trend can be obtained from NOAA's Laboratory for Satellite Altimetry, with maps of the regional variation in the trend. The University of Colorado's Sea Level Research Group compares global sea level rates calculated by different research organizations and discusses some of the issues involved.
The Center for Operational Oceanographic Products and Services has been measuring sea level for over 150 years, with tide stations of the National Water Level Observation Network operating on all U.S. coasts. Changes in RSL, either a rise or fall, have been computed at 142 long-term water level stations using a minimum span of 30 years of observations at each location. These measurements have been averaged by month which removes the effect of higher frequency phenomena in order to compute an accurate linear sea level trend. The trend analysis has also been extended to 240 global tide stations using data from the Permanent Service for Mean Sea Level (PSMSL). This work is funded in partnership with the NOAA OAR Climate Observation Division.
I looked at the NASA figures and it's roughly 10mm in the last year or so
Monsoonal Rains are simply returning after a very long absence along with melting Ice caps, Not the first time and probably won't be the last.
Continental Shifting or Drifting as it is also called is the earth trying to balance itself in its spin, Axial Shifts and Continental Shifts or Drifts are tied to each other, increased solar output makes this shifting and drifting easier.
It generally happens slowly and in phases and the best anyone can do is build for survivability and prepare for whatever comes.
AND then there are those that instead of fixing their own problems demand others step in a fix it for them.
N. S
its not hard to 'fact check' articles like these
so it says at south florida sea levels are rising : 1 foot in 30years! and indeed accelerating - and noaa backs this up!
ummm where?
noaa sea level rise for very south at Key West https://www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_station.shtml?id=8724580
no sign of accelerated sea level rise, and current rise is 2.6mm/yr. meaning in 10yrs sea level will have risen 2.6cm, which means in about 11.5 decades, sea level will have risen 1 foot. a far cry from the alarmism in the article
on approx the same latitude line at Naples, the sea level rise is a little more - 3.35mm/yr, meaning 1foot rise in 89.5yrs. https://www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_station.shtml?id=8725110
honestly if people are going to post scaremongering articles, at least do us the courtesy of checking the data.
We have these things called "hurricanes." And the closer to sea level a city is, the worse the flooding from the storm surge produced by these is. Additionally, hurricanes are larger and more destructive when sea water temperatures are higher, which is another effect of human-caused climate change. However, since Florida's governor has legislated climate change away, I'm sure the state won't be requesting disaster relief should one of these "hurricanes" manifest. Bootstraps, and all.
so the article states that noa says sea level rise is 1foot in 30 years, ishow you noass actually shows at worst sea level rise is 1 foot in 90yrs, and you say !Storms!
k
I'm saying that this is why a city that already floods frequently should be concerned about sea level rise and not play ostrich with its future. I'm not interested in bailing out a state that does. I'm guessing you're not a "plan ahead" kind of guy.
the dutch started flood-proofing their whole country in the medieval period (when it was warmer then now) I'm sure one of the richest states in the richest country can do just as well
Florida, and Miami in particular, is sitting on top of porous rock. The Netherlands isn't. Build a dike around Miami, and the water will just infiltrate underneath it. And Florida isn't going to be rich much longer. Insurers are pulling out, and as I said in an earlier post, why should the rest of us rebuild it when the next hurricane hits? Florida is in hospice and doesn't even know it.
the Netherlands is below sea level, and most of it is estuarine silts. ie mud. And their dealing with it.
Mud is not porous.
In case you or anyone else would like to read-up on how incredibly wrong you are.
i said
"its not hard to 'fact check' articles like these
so it says at south florida sea levels are rising : 1 foot in 30years! "
1foot is 30cm. thats a rise of 1cm or 10mm/yr.
your link says
"[Is the rate of sea-level rise increasing?]()
Yes. Relying on nearly a 30-year record of satellite measurements, scientists have measured the rate of sea-level rise at 0.13 inches (3.4 millimeters) per year."
3.4mm/yr = 3.4cm/decade, or 1foot in 88years.
Naples' sea level rise is a fraction lower than average at 3.35mm.
You posted relative sea level rise and not absolute, which is specific to a monitoring station. You cannot apply this metric to global sea level rise.
Relative Sea Level trends at the coast can be positive or negative. A negative trend does not mean the ocean surface is falling; It indicates the land is rising more quickly than the ocean in a particular area. Trends close to zero indicate the land is rising at nearly the same rate as the ocean.
global sea level rise is around 3.4mm by satellite, and 3.2mm by tide gauges
but thats taking all measurements.
If you remove the outliers (eg isostatically affected areas like Manilla in the Phillipines (at 14mm/yr due to subsidence)), then the global average is closer to 1.5mm iiirc
heres the data if you want to look : dump it into excel, sort and average
https://www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/mslGlobalTrendsTable.html
Again, you are posting relative changes which are location specific, and suites your disingenuous cherry picking. As I already cited, relative sea level changes factors in elevation changes in the land to the data
Global sea level rise has increased 8 inches since records began in 1880 and is accelerating past an inch a decade
ffs the article states that the dangerous sea level rise is in South Florida.
So i post data for Key West and Naples - ie very south in South Florida.
Both charts - from NOAA : ie the organisation cited in the article : show no acceleration, instead a steady flat trend that has been ongoing since the data was collected.
What d you want me to do : post Sydney Harbours sea level rise? How about Greenland? how is that relevant to the article?
Dude, even Miami accepts the issue.
You asserted that the relative sea level change in key west from 1920-2020 applies globally, and now applies to all of florida. It doesn't, but look at the chart again, there is absolutely accelerating apparent in the recent decades. Since we are agreeable about NOAA as a source, per the article:
According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s best estimates, that pace is expected to speed up — dramatically.
It took about 80 years for the first foot. The second one will only take 30 years. The next, 20 years. And Florida could see the next foot in merely a decade after that.
“Sea level rise is beginning to speed up a bit,” McNoldy said. “If you draw a straight line it starts to not look so straight in recent decades.”
That’s according to NOAA’s “intermediate-high” projection of sea level rise. The agency created a range of predictions — low, intermediate-low, intermediate, intermediate-high and high — to estimate what sea level rise could look like in places like Florida.
So if you can demonstrate that NOAA is incorrectly presenting NOAA data, go publish your research and claim your nobel prize!
I asserted no such thing.
i stated initially
"so it says at south florida sea levels are rising : 1 foot in 30years! and indeed accelerating - and noaa backs this up!
ummm where?
noaa sea level rise for very south at Key West https://www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_station.shtml?id=8724580
no sign of accelerated sea level rise, and current rise is 2.6mm/yr. meaning in 10yrs sea level will have risen 2.6cm, which means in about 11.5 decades, sea level will have risen 1 foot. a far cry from the alarmism in the article
on approx the same latitude line at Naples, the sea level rise is a little more - 3.35mm/yr, meaning 1foot rise in 89.5yrs. https://www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_station.shtml?id=8725110"
ie everything i said is all relevant to the 2 stations in south florida.
then in response to you i stated
"global sea level rise is around 3.4mm by satellite, and 3.2mm by tide gauges
but thats taking all measurements."
nowhere do i say florida's stations applies to the globe. Do better.
If your gunna argue with a skeptic, be good at it.
What do you know, I found a paper that actually presents relative sea level change in Florida accurately, go ahead and have a read
a paper with climate change PROJECTIONS? omg
say just asking, but - how good have climate change projections been for the last 40ish years?
and if we were to dive deep into those charts in that paper - say the virginia keys one -
if you were a climate change clown i mean alarmist in say the year 1987 - would you be screaming also about the imminent massive sea level rise that is due tomorrow by the clear acceleration since say 1981 as shown in the chart as at that date??
but then what happened?
Was it hard not passing junior high?
lol no harder than just nipping over and checking an official gov agency website to verify obvious fearmongering. why couldn't you do it?
Fort Jefferson. Built 150 years ago. Still here… above sea level.
It's not happening here in Canada for some reason. I live 20 feet from the Atlantic Ocean. in 50 years it has not moved an inch. Even our local city is built on the edge of the ocean. no change at all.
From NASA:
Are sea levels rising the same all over the world, as if we're filling a giant bathtub?
No. Sea level rise is uneven, the two main reasons being ocean dynamics and Earth’s uneven gravity field.
Jeez I guess all the Democrats with Ocean front homes are going to have a problem
If sea levels are rising. How come Plymouth Rock isn't under water?🤔
As usual the so called science isn’t credible. A quick search reveals this from sealevelrise.Org “Although the sea level has risen by 6.5 inches since 1950, nearly half of it (3 inches) has occurred in just the last 20 years. “ so which is it ? Depends on who’s paying for the research I guess
Both of those statements can be true. They are saying it is getting worse.
That statement is fine, what contradiction do you see?
From 1950 to 2004 it rose 3.5 inches, from 2004 to 2024 it rose 3 inches; 0.65 inches per decade, and 1.5 inches per decade respectively
Edit: and your quote is for the US, not globally
You can cut and dice it any way you choose to suit your narrative and ignore the obvious conclusion, how can two set of scientific tests on sea level be so different , 3inches in the last 20 years or 8 in the last 30, that leaves 5 between 20 and thirty , so the rise is either falling or it’s just BS science , you choose
3inches in the last 20 years or 8 in the last 30,
Your quote of 6.5 inches since 1950 is for America, through 2016. Globally, it has increased by 8 inches in the last 80 years, through 2023
Graphs for global change can be seen here https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/sea-level/?intent=121. 103 mm (4 inches) from 1993 to 2023. So the OP's 3 inches is an underestimate.
I am not in the U.S. at all. Australia has recorded no sea level change at all. Interesting that it’s only happening in Miami. This climate change is very selective
Fascinating. I am here and have noticed nothing. I need to start having faith
Projection
Dont join this propaganda echo chamber based on baloney and bill gates funding for pop con agenda!
10 missing replies
Miami is three feet above sea level. That means by 2060 the city is underwater. The government knows this. So what’s their plan?