Next year’s draft is supposed to be very deep, and I think it’s really important that they hold onto their top 10 protected pick and use next year to give a ton of playing time to the young guys. Unfortunately, they will have some stiff competition from other teams like Brooklyn that have decided to blow it up. If they get rid of DeMar and Zach, is this team bottom 10 in the league?
Biggest player to watch is PWill this year. If we move DeRozan and Lavine, he has no excuse to continue to be mid on offense
Giddey might actually get him the ball cutting to the basket
where he'll proceed to miss an easy dunk per usual
Agree, the last few years have truly been brutal to watch. I’ve watched so much less Bulls basketball because it’s felt hopeless. Young talent that can develop is infinitely more exciting, even if it doesn’t show up in the win column right away.
I didn't watch a single full game this year, which is saying something because I usually watch as many Bulls games as I can.
I'd argue the post-Jimmy Bulls were more interesting than these Bulls the past two years, mainly because you had young guys like Lauri and Zach who flashed a ton of potential (I still hate Boylen with every fiber of my being tho)
I watched a lot of Blackhawks games last year, even when Bedard was out, just to see some of the young prospects. Much more exciting than the Bulls.
Been saying this a lot too. It’s much more exciting watching a bad Hawks team with a ton of future stars than whatever the Bulls have been trying to do. And Hawks fans show up like crazy. I wish Jerry understood that.
I doubt Matas starts, I have a feeling Lavine will still be here
Barf
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7d
You would bench Coby?
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I don’t agree with this, if we’re keeping Lavine to raise his value that’s cool but not at the expense of what we see the best player on our team is moving forward in the next couple years
Why would we bench Coby for Matas?
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Matas hasn’t even played and is very underweight, he was a great pick in a weak draft who fell because of his shooting. It’s your opinion but that sounds a little bit of a stretch to say he has more upside. Coby, Lavine, Giddey, Williams, Vuc may end up being our starters
You can’t keep doing that to a player. Coby has been through some lows and he’s finally finding his stride, he’s a player who’s been benched twice after earning a starter role both times. This last time he took off and really should’ve won MIP, you would really bench him for a 3rd time after his grind? That’s discouraging to a player whose confidence is up after a great yr.
Benching him after a breakout season would be putting a lid on his ceiling because he’s not even at his best yet. You’re entitled to your own opinion but he’s thriving and if I’m Billy I say give him the keys and let ‘em go..
zach is 100% done whether hes traded or not bc of coby. cobys not benching. zach can start in front of matas but that would be just awkward fit with coby and ruining development/tank.
In fairness Matas might not be ready from a strength and conditioning standpoint.
I haven't really watched since the Lonzo injury. I'm looking forward to a rebuild with some hope.
Same man
It's looking more and more certain that LaVine is coming back, which means he'll be a starter until at least the trade deadline. But I'm not sure that he moves the needle too much in terms of wins. Giddey, LaVine-White-Williams-Vucevic is a terrible defensive lineup.
they wont be that bad bc giddey/coby/pat will massively improve.
they are close to 30 win team with vuc they will have to remove all the vets and probably even coby if they want to secure top pick.
Agreed 100%. I’ll actually be disappointed if that isn’t our starting lineup next season. It’s the most hope ive had for the future since we ran out a White/Lavine/Williams/Markannen/Carter Jr lineup opening night the year AKME took over
Until they got impatient and blew it up at the at the deadline
and drafting cooper flagg
Matas is going to be awful this year. I like the pick but if he's getting 30mpg he's good for a -15 every night. Going to get destroyed on defence, and won't consistently stretch the floor.
I am concerned keeping the likes of PWill, Coby, Ayo and now getting Giddey is going to raise our floor above teams like the Wizards or Portland or whatever the Nets are doing.
That being said, if we can jettison Demar, Lavine, and Vuc for future assets instead of current ones, I think we can play a copy cat up tempo style like Indiana and be fun to watch while losing enough games for a top 5 pick.
I don’t think we need to worry about being the absolute worst team in the league. Even if we are a bottom 6-8 team, it will be okay. Next year’s draft is not just all about Flagg. The top 10 or so guys would have been a number 1 pick this year, so as long as we keep our pick we are pretty much guaranteed to get a stud in the draft
The top 10 or so guys would have been a number 1 pick this year,
That's not really saying much.
The bigger point here is we need a franchise caliber talent.
Coby, Ayo, Giddey, PWill are nice pieces to have, but I can't see any of them going tit for tat with the production of the Giannis or SGA or Jokic's of the league.
Is the #6 pick in next year's draft going to be that good? Im not sure, but allegedly this Cooper Flagg kid is, so why half ass this thing?
I mean its because of the lottery. The worst 4 teams have the same chance at the number one pick. So being the worst out of those 4 doesn’t do anything at all. Being 5th or 6th is a small step down but still a reasonable chance. The highest percentage chance you can have is literally 14% to get the number 1 pick. So even if you are the worst in the league you will only get the first pick one out of 8 times. So basically, we just need to keep our pick next year imo and not worry about the rest because its a total crapshoot
People are still adjusting to the new lottery. It used to be worth the squeeze to try and REALLY suck as much as you can.
As you say, it’s just really not worth the squeeze anymore to try and be the worst. I’d rather have interesting young players that you’re trying to build value on (be that for your own team in 3 years or a trade either way value is value).
I’d rather do that and be the ~7th worst team, than do what it takes to “guarentee” a bottom 4 finish and a 14% chance at Flagg.
The worst 4 teams have the same chance at the number one pick. So being the worst out of those 4 doesn’t do anything at all.
It guarantees you a top 5 pick.
Generally speaking, the differences between the lower 4~6 teams in lottery percentages are marginal. And imo, cultivating a try-hard winning mentality is gonna be better for the development of our young players.
A la OKC's mini-tank. Of course, they had SGA and picks but I still think it means something.
Not arguing with any of that, I think the young core we roll with should try to win and just be too inexperienced to pull it off like the Pistons last year.
My main concern is trading Lavine/Demar/Vuc for players who can win us a few games on their own next season spoiling our chance at a top pick because ownership was too chicken shit to bottom out.
Giddey might win us a game or two next season, which is a game or two more than a future pick would have gotten us next year.
Applying that same logic to Coby, Pwill or whatever salary filler comes back for Lavine (if they see minutes) has me concerned we end up 10th seeds again with a pick outside the top ten during a rebuild year.
this is a legit concern. might have to ship coby bc he has highest value and will be expensive next contract. fake a injjury or something.
We don’t have to be a bottom 5 team to get a top 5 pick. Atlanta and Houston were the 10 and 11 seeds in their conferences and got 1 and 3. While Detroit was the worst in the league and got 5. As long as we don’t make the play in we should be able to keep our pick then just hope for the best.
Man the lottery balls HATE Detroit they’ve been the worst team in the league two years running and got #5 both times 🤣
Atlanta and Houston were the 10 and 11 seeds in their conferences and got 1 and 3
pretty sure the #3 pick was the Nets pick that was traded to Houston from the Harden trade
You’re right about that my bad by Atlanta was their own pick. But even so Brooklyn was still the 11th seed. So the 10 and 11 seed in the east got the 1 and 3 picks. Not to mention Memphis was expecting higher and only got 9
that doesnt mean u should be a bottom 10 team still risky. bottom 5 is the best place if u want flagg.
all the new system changed is u dont have to be the worst team.
Sure but I wouldn’t deliberately avoid getting good young players until after next year because even if we’re the worst that doesn’t mean we’ll get the first pick.
As Long as we’re one of the worst. With todays lotto odds you dont have to be the absolute worst
Vuc is integral to the tank and nobody is going to want him, he’s a negative asset.
If we can manage to suck it up this year, whether intentionally or not, this would be the kind of “soft rebuild” that Jerry could probably get behind. One more young top 10 pick in a loaded draft would have us pointing in the right direction with the other pieces we have in place.
I say this in a lot of threads but it's really not hard to be ass lol
A starting 5 of Giddey Coby Ayo Pat Buz is absolutely capable of losing 65 games if we dump vets, other 14-15 seed teams have as good or better players overall
Draft odds are not what they used to be
Being a top 5 pick team is never fun to watch, it's awful. Been there done that
Jerry lives off this kind of short sightedness
People will soon realize how bad the loss of Caruso and I’m assuming the loss of Derozan will be for this team.
Bulls overall had a net offensive rating of 114 (19th in the league) and net defensive rating of 115.7 (22nd in the league)
Offensively with Derozan on the floor we were a net 115.96 (15th) and with Derozan off the floor we were a net 112.97 (23rd)
Defensively with Caruso on the floor we were a net 114.14 (14th) and with Caruso off the floor we were a net 119.75 (30th, literally last in the league)
Theoretically that’s a 23rd ranked offense and a 30th ranked defense going into next year. Fear not people, we will be very bad whether that was the Bulls plan or not lol
Derozan being gone is critical to this. He’s a huge floor raiser imo. Were losing our best playmaker and best scorer if he goes lol
Exactly. Not to mention his efficiency in PNR and isolation gave a ton of open looks for kick out threes to guys like Coby, Ayo, P-Will, Vooch, and collectively they still didn’t shoot all that well from 3. If he’s gone, defenders can stick more to their assignments and the open looks these guys got close dramatically making the 3pt% look even worse than last year.
We were the 11th best team in the league record wise and lost our best defensive engine and on the verge of losing our best offensive engine. We will be very bad.
People under estimate the tanking prowess of having vuc on the floor. IMO us vuc haters have been right all along and it’s all because of his defense.
He has become a nearly unplayable player in the modern nba. You just can’t have a big thst is so flat footed and worthless in defending picks nowadays. Not without having elite perimeter defenders, which we don’t have anymore with Caruso gone.
Our defense is going to be atrocious especially as giddey is not a good defender either and he should be logging huge minutes this year.
Not only the defense but Vooch is such a bad fit with Giddey too that his offense will probably be even more inefficient. Plus he seems to have kind of a sour puss attitude when things aren’t going his way.
Due to his shitty play, Vooch is as close to an untradeable contract as it can get. He’s in for a rough 2 years.
I'd have to crush some tape, but I think Vooch still gets guarded on the perimeter so he's not an awful fit with Giddey- compared to like a Deandre Ayton type. But agreed he's the tank master.
If they give Matas and Terry anywhere near 20mpg while letting Pat Williams try his hand at being a playmakers, we might win < 20 games.
Last year Vooch had 4.1 3PA per game, 3.7 of those attempts were considered “wide open” based on the nearest defender. He shot a staggering 30.5% in those attempts…
There were 94 guys in the league that had over 2.5 “wide open” 3PA last year. Vooch shot the 2nd lowest percentage…
The lowest was a rookie for the Wizards who coincidentally is named Tristan Vukcevic who played 10 total games at the end of the year, only had 36 total 3PA.
Josh Giddey had 2.7 “wide open” attempts last year and shot 35%.
No need to crush the tape, he doesn’t get guarded on the perimeter and he’s still awful.
good facts there.
it’s all because of his defense.
I think it's the combo of both his defense and the terrible 3 point shooting. We could manage around a sub-par defensive C if he was shooting the lights out from deep, stretching the floor and warping defenses. But when he's one of the worst high-volume shooters in the league and a bad defender, that's just a losing combination.
The cycle of Vuc only has one side
You’re giving me a lot of hope lol
Honestly op, don’t sleep on how bad vuc makes us. Our defense is going to be absolutely abysmal
hard disagree bc caruso was barely a 20mpg guy and growth of core will make up for loss of demar.
u would have to get rid of coby to secure top pick.
I’m not expecting anything huge. But I am looking forward to see Coby, Giddey, Matas form chemistry and do great together. I’m hoping for a tank though. Rebuild can’t be complete without Flagg
I would say DeMar is good as gone. But Lavine could still be with us on opening night. If no team would give up good returns for him.
With LaVine playing and Drummond back.
I say Bulls are still better than the Nets, Pistons, Wizards and Hornets. Better than the Blazers and Spurs in the west as well. Jazz didn’t really got better. So I would say Bulls are a little bit better than the jazz as well.
It sounded like a team made an offer for Lavine, but the Bulls are scared of the backlash it would receive. Now if it’s a matter if they accept it or not.
They dont like the return. Mikal is cheaper and is a two-way player. But he was never been an all-star and got 5 FRP plus pick swaps.
I think AK are just waiting for the right trade. No point dumping Zach IMO.
Drummond is not coming back.
Honestly witb the new lotto format I’m not overly concerned with being a bottom 3 team. It is obviously still preferred but you’ve gotta be super ass nowadays to get there and there’s no guarentees at all.
I’m very content with a 5th-10th standing and let the balls fall where they may from there.
With that in mind - we got 11 this year with the team we have. If we are starting giddey coby and vuc, we’re easily going to be a bottom 10 team.
I know we all know how important defense is but when we’re doing projections and fits we all still tend to overlook it. This defense is gearing up to be absolutely dreadful.
We probably won’t be a bottom 3 team but we should easily be a bottom 10 team.
Hey 10th would mean we’d basically be where we are now! We’d be “competitive” lol
Right exactly, this is why I’m not worried about it. No way this team ends up better next year. So we’ll probably be fine and keep our top 10 lottery odds in a pretty stacked draft. Lucking into 4th+ would be MASSIVE, but either way we keep our pick in a good draft
Agreed, was just kidding mostly haha
Was just looking into this. Looking at last year’s standings and factoring each team’s anticipated direction, I’m guessing (in no order): 1. Washington 2. Brooklyn 3. Detroit 4. Charlotte 5. Chicago 6. Utah 7. Portland 8. SA 9. ? 10. ?
Getting youth back in any trades/signing the most cost effective options in FA could definitely keep the bulls in the mix.
That looks good to me
The Bulls will probably only be slightly worse than last year, and I have a feeling they’re going to dump Vooch & LaVine soon to make a swing at Hartenstein, who would be perfect for Coby & Giddey.
Theoretically, if the Bulls let DeMar walk and LaVine is traded, the Bulls on paper should be a bottom 5 team. However, if they surprise and end up making the playoffs, I wouldn’t be mad. It means that we have something with our young core, and we can build upon it. With cap space, if we can get a superstar in FA, we could get to a good place (takes the sting out of losing the ‘25 pick to SA).
If you’re telling me the team is Coby Ayo Giddey Williams Vuc Matas Terry Phillips Carter and two other vets that’s probably the 5th worst team in league maybe 6? Nets will be the worst in the league or wizards but it’s definitely those two. I think raptors/bulls/blazers/jazz/pistons all on same level to an extent. Then you’ll get into the play in teams but injuries happen so I could still see that bad bulls team getting 7/8 pick because teams will fully commit to the tank
Not as bad as Jerry's other team but still depressing haha
I’ll take a year of depressing if it means a good pick next year. Doesn’t even need to be Flagg. Our mid ass team was way more depressing
I agree. The middle is the worst place to be in professional sports. I also have no faith in the current front office to get the pick right though lol
The loss of both DeRozan and Caruso is really really going to hurt a lot
Remember all those wide open three pointers Coby/Ayo/Pat/Vuc gets because of DeMar , wave those goodbye beacause teams will have no problem defending a DeMar-less Bulls
DeMar had the best defender and defensive gameplan
If DeMar truly is gone, teams will try to completely smother Coby (like we already saw the last 2 months, his productivity took a serious nosedive). Which other player would be worth guarding here? It could be a real struggle getting even 12-13 wins. AC leaving is so huge, he and Coby were instrumental in directing traffic and telling people where to go. Ayo is likely not starting.
I’m also curious about that random PWill rumor that AK and OKC discussed a possible S&T. Is that still a possibility with some other team? Is the FO determined not to pay him a penny more than 16m? If so, we’d lose yet another 3-p shooter
I personally don't see them making the play in, so they should at least keep their pick.
Almost no reason to expect them to finish any higher than they did last year, and I would bet at least one of the Raptors/Hawks passing them, probably both. Maybe Detroit would like to make some (potentially dumb and shortsighted) moves to move past the Bulls too - they've got a lottery pick on a rookie contract at every position at this point, how much more tanking can they really be up for? Seems to me they'll aim to be this year's Rockets, use all that cap space on complimentary vets and hope to make the playin.
Surprise! This team is bottom ten in the league if they keep Demar and Zach.
Maybe.......We seem to be stuck on the edge of mediocrity regardless of what we do. We posted almost the same record last season as the year before and did it with two starters missing most of the season (Zach/Pat). This was in large part because both Coby and Ayo made leaps. We have many unknowns this season. Will Pat take a big leap, everyone seems ready to write him off or declare him a 3 and D, but Pat has skills and ability beyond that. I still believe Pat could put it all together and be a great 2 way all-star level player. What will happen with Terry and Phillips, two very young and athletic wings. Either one develops a 3pt shot and they could be solid. Will Giddey develop further, improve his shot and find renewed life knowing he is the starting PG. Will Zo truly play high level again and give us something? I think Craig and Carter (both back) can give us a lot of what Caruso did with defense, hustle, 3pt shooting. I don't think they are at all thinking about tanking to start the season. We now have a very young roster with Coby/Ayo/Pat/Terry/Phillips/Giddey and Buz all under 25. Even Zach and Zo are under 30. Knowing this FO I think they are aiming for a soft rebuild so I will be very surprised if they let both Zach and Demar go. Either they trade Zach and resign Demar or if they can't move Zach then they let Demar walk or do a sign and trade with him. If guys develop and the team is above .500 they likely ride it out (again), if not then I think they will try to move Vuch and Zach/Demar at the deadline and try to tank to keep their pick and next year will be the true rebuild.
Maybe I’m reading into it too much, but it sounds like AK is ready to build this roster how he wants to and move on from the aging “core” that we have. I’m hoping the last few years have been more of what Jerry wanted, and that AK sees this as an opportunity to do a proper rebuild with another good pick next year. But as it usually goes with the Bulls, we’ll probably try to half ass this thing
The thing that people that want to burn it down don't want to mention is no team in the NBA is a true contender without a super star lead. The last team to win a chip without a super star was Pistons in 2005. Tanking is problematic because of the lottery. Even if we keep that protected pick next year very little chance its number 1. Also hurts us that historically very few teams in the NBA truly attract star/super star free agents and we aren't one of them. I don't think Jerry mettles as much as people think, he just is cheap and don't want to spend the $$$. All the top teams are in the luxury tax and even some teams that got flushed are well into the tax and didn't get out of the 1st round. If you are really serious about contending you are not worrying about the salary cap, and as we know Bulls are mandated by Jerry to stay below it. Our only hope is what made us good/great twice before and that is we luck out and get MJ or Rose in the draft. We seemed to get lucky that Buz fell to 11 as most boards had him as top 5. We will have to see what comes of it but yeah I think we are finally moving on from the mid 3.
Nothing was stopping AK from building this team how he wanted. Even if the belief is reinsdorf was pulling strings, the issue with the bulls was that AK in his first year gave away all of our future assets and banked on a team that looked good for 3 months before the wheels came off. The he proceeded to make no other moves after that, each year being a year where we tried to figure out what the hell we had on our roster.
Tanking should have been the plan for wemby, as impressive as flag looks, wemby is clearly generational. But instead the bulls chose that season to try to win (and instead just kept being mediocre).
Reinsdorf is probably cheap and cares only about profits in regards to this team, but that doesn't mean that he commands inaction from his gm. But that's what AKME have done... Nothing. They've tried nothing and are all out of ideas.
Very bad
Part of the issue is the lottery system tho. IIRC, bottom four teams have the same odds to land it. So you’re more likely to miss it than grab it. They should be trying to stockpile picks. Of course trying to do that is easier said than done
Probably somewhere in the 7-10 range. There are a lot of aggressive tankers out there already in WAS, DET, BKN and Utah, Portland, Toronto, San antonio, Charlotte are probably at least as bad or maybe worse for now
San Antonio and Toronto should be better than the Bulls next season. Detroit will still probably be the worst, followed by Brooklyn
Do we have that pick or did we already give it to another team?
I mean they finished 20th in most stats but won a play in game. Losing Caruso (for Giddey) makes them worse. We'll see what else they'll do but ya they could pretty easily keep that pick
I think one thing that gets lost in the tanking strategy is you want to do it when as few teams as possible are tanking. I think Chicago is tanking at a great time, especially considering the arms race in the West. I think there’s a good chance they are among the 5 worst records in the league with CHA, DET, BKN, and WAS.
Plus with how much parity there is now, more teams than ever probably think they’re closer to competing
Hopefully bad enough to have a top 5 pick in a loaded draft.
Developing our young talent and getting a high draft pick should be our only two goals for 24-25.
Ceiling is probably like mid 30s Ws.
Bad asf
Terrible
We need to tank away if it's a deep draft. Get as high as possible. Love demar and all but this entire roster is a mess and not for this era. Rebuild away , try find an all star,even better a top 10 or top 5 player in the league someday would be nice so we can try contend. Really want a finals a series so so bad but this owner seems content in being a playin only
I’m already feeling nervous about how lucky or unlucky we’ll be in the lottery next year. I would at least settle for top 4. Remember, even if we’re the worst team in the league we’ll still only have a 14.5% chance of getting the 1st pick.
For sure, but we still have to try. Even if we don’t get Flagg, this next draft is full of potential stars.
bad enough! the lottery odds are more flattened now
I hope you like pain
As long as it brings us a good pick, sign me up!
who plays defense
You cant be bad if everybody inproves.
Very very bad. 20 wins bad
It’s sooo ridiculous how bad they can be. But, buddy is destroying years of trash. Let him cook🤣😂🤣😂
All in all I’d say 20 wins but Giddey post a near triple double in avg Coby Ayo take an another leap and Matas is all rookie first team. I have 0 hope for Patrick Williams that’s just me
We were bottom “11” this year. Unlikely we improve from that
Hopefully worst in the league. So we can move on from Ball for ever. And start over. Which we should have done two years ago.
Amen this front office sucks for not wanting a rebuild and ran it back 2 yrs ago. Ppl were called crazy then asking to blow it up.
Hopefully bad enough for a top 10 pick
If the starting lineup is Giddey/Coby/Matas/PWill/Vuc(?), they'll probably be pretty damn bad. But that is exactly what they should be doing. The two main objectives for next year should be 1) retaining the top 10 pick and 2) giving the young guys as much playing time as possible to develop.
Watching that lineup will be way more interesting than watching a team you know is only going as far as the play-in IMO.