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CMV: Individuals outside a show/movie's demographic should not interact with the targeted demographic at all
The solution to your problem isn’t to ban adults from certain topics, it’s to ban adults from certain spaces (as well as kids from certain spaces).
You make a good point here actually! I realize I'm the wrong for suggesting some extreme lengths. But yeah, my frustration stems from ideas and actions carried out by a minority and I shouldn't have taken that example as a whole
You should award them a delta for their comment since it sounds like your view has been changed a bit - check out the sub rules/wiki for more information if you're unsure what that means.
Thanks for the reminder, But I do still standby what I originally wrote in the post. I still dont consider my view to be changed just yet, will do it if it happens tho :)
“I realize I'm the wrong for suggesting some extreme lengths”
You conceded on part of your view. You are supposed to award a delta for that.
I still believe in the core idea that I expressed in my post. My mind has not been changed
You may still believe your core idea, but that is not the only thing deltas are for.
You admitted you were partially in the wrong. For that you are supposed to award a delta.
My mind hasnt been changed. I would like the discussion to continue. If you compare the dates posted, it will be clear I still standby what I said.
To be clear, your view doesn't need to be entirely changed for a delta to be warranted, they're for any small change to your view too.
I realize I'm the wrong for suggesting some extreme lengths.
If this is the case, doesn't it mean your view has changed a bit?
How does your view factor in to some “fandoms” where the target audience has arguably shifted throughout the series. Most popular example being Harry Potter. Based on reading level (lexile scores) alone, the books had an upward shift as the series went on, suggesting the reader/target audience should be advancing as well.
Cursed child as a stage play was rather long, which might make it more challenging for younger kids to enjoy, suggesting the target audience would skew older as well. And by no means were the fantastic beast films targeted to children only.
I think it’s pretty clear that the Harry Potter series has been marketed to children, teenagers, young adults, and now the general adult population. That makes it difficult imo to follow your rules of gatekeeping the consumption of the media to the target audience.
I didn't take that into account I'll be honest. I only had a show that aired for 2 years when I wrote the post
That makes it difficult imo to follow your rules of gatekeeping the consumption of the media to the target audience.
I have to agree with this. I didn't think this far. But I do still standby what I said.
If it changed your view a little bit, and it sounds like it did, delta time.
Have you actually ever watched any of these shows? Many of them are sneakily loaded with adult humor specifically for the parents that would be watching with their kids. Just because the primary target audience of a show is kids doesn’t mean no one else is allowed to enjoy it.
Im strictly speaking about the communities and which a broad range of ages which may or may not be the intended audience for a certain show interact with each other. you can watch any show aimed any audience, it isnt a problem. the issue stems when someone much older (for example) decides to join a community dedicated to a show that is primarily aimed at teens.
I personally find it incredibly weird/ somewhat creepy how adults in their later stages of live find a show meant for 13-17 ages to be "relatable".
This is such a bizarre comment. Surely you're aware that older people don't just forget the earlier stages of their lives, right? And people's teenage years often have a nostalgia and strong memories attached to them, so it's easy to relate to fictional characters who are going through that same sorts of experiences that they went through.
Believe it or not, in 15 or 20 years from now, you'll probably watch movies and TV shows with characters the age you are now, and you'll find them relatable.
And anyway, you don't need to fall into the same demographic group as a fictional character to find them relatable. I can empathise with characters of different ages, cultures, genders, from myself. Do you only relate to characters that are exactly the same as yourself?
It's so strange to me that you've taken one of the most positive things about human beings (our capacity for empathy, to use our imagination to try to understand what it is like to be a different person) and you've defined it as "weird" and "creepy".
I should've phrased that better. What I meant is:
Image if an adult aged 30 relates with the hardships/teenage shenanigans faced by a protagonist aged 14? What if that said adult goes out of their way interact with the targeted demographic (13-17) because he/she finds it to be relatable?
Nostalgia is a different topic on its own.
A problem is that most works aim at the mainstream and everyone, and those that don't generally alienate older viewers on their own.
What demographic a show is for is mostly down to the creators, age ratings only say whether the content fits standards.
Ren and Stimpy was targeted to kids by the original creators, and now is to adults. Much discussion of it behind the scenes is uncomfortable for children to engage with. It also had an adult spinoff by the original creator and a reboot coming not made by him.
Ren and Stimpy was targeted to kids by the original creators, and now is to adults. Much discussion of it behind the scenes is uncomfortable for children to engage with.
Is there a solution to this? I'm in the same situation right now. The targeted audience once had by the show has grown older and with it, the discussions and community as well....
Respect.
Adults need to respect that the target and primary audience is children or teens and conduct themselves accordingly.
It will often be case-by-case though, but generally follows trends.
Teen content especially will be hairy as it's harder to just say "Kids watch it, keep it PG.", as teen stuff will often explore sexual topics.
Still, respect is the root. A good community can't be had without respect anyway, so it's best to demand respect from the adults who definitionally should know better or be ousted.
Hard agree on this one!
Individuals outside a show/movie's demographic should not interact with the targeted demographic at all
So, I can't take my daughter to the My Little Pony convention? I have to just, like, drop her off outside and wish her the best?
THAT seems like a safety concern.
if you're an adult, you wouldn't want a kid messing with your weekend BBQ.
I love having my friends bring their kids over when BBQ'ing. We do it almost every weekend.
o, I can't take my daughter to the My Little Pony convention?
The title said that you can't interact with her at all. So, you can't provide her shelter, food, etc.
Take your Twilight Sparkle merch and get the fuck out of my house!
Shit, that might trigger some dudes in this thread.
I get it that you're probably joking (but this isn't r/CrazyIdeas) but I doubt OP was saying you should basically pick one fandom to "make your personality" as if it were some kind of YA dystopian sorting mechanism and not interact with anyone else who isn't in the target demographic for that fandom for any reason and maybe even not engage with any other fandoms
I get it that you're probably joking
What part of this is joking? I was reiterating the title. The title is clear: Should not interact with the demographic title at all.
Unsure of the relevance of this comment, but this is r/changemyview where an OP can provide any view they want changed. So, if the OP's mind is changed that there's some use cases where an adult can interact with a demographic then the OP should be giving out deltas.
but I doubt OP was saying you
You can doubt all you like but we can interact with what the OP actually said. We don't have to guess. The OP's title said "AT ALL." We are allowed to give effect to each word the OP provides in the title. The OP could have limited interactions at conventions or areas aimed at the IP the OP is contemplating but the OP chose to say "at all."
So, I can't take my daughter to the My Little Pony convention? I have to just, like, drop her off outside and wish her the best?
God, NO! Its more like discouraging individuals outside the targeted audience of MLP from wandering into such conventions/communities aimed at kids. I've heard that MLP has a lot of weird fans that make a certain pony their "persona" despite being in their late ages. Im talking about gatekeeping the adult weirdos that cosplay as their fav pony or something.
My frustration stems from a community aimed at a teen audience being overrun by individuals that are much older for the aimed demographic
outside the targeted audience of MLP
Part of the issue is that properties like MLP are multi-generational. My wife grew up with it, and then my daughter did. So, fan events were catering to both. Also, the re-booted show itself was written with a fair bit of innuendo and pop-culture references that would have flown way over the heads of kids, but was actually there for the adult audience.
I've heard that MLP has a lot of weird fans that make a certain pony their "persona" despite being in their late ages.
So does Star Wars, and Star Trek, and D&D, and Marvel, and DC, and a multitude of other media properties that are not in actuality narrowly focused on a child only audience.
My frustration stems from a community aimed at a teen audience being overrun by individuals that are much older for the aimed demographic
It's not "overrun" by older fans, they exist within the fandom and have since the inception.
Innuendo might not be the best word to use in this context... Cloppers love referencing supposed in show "innuendos" to justify selling porn around children.
MLP is a 1980s brand, so technically the only people allowed to be ther should be older (according to your weird rules).
The increasingly pervasive genz 'no adult should look at, speak to, interact with, anyone under 18' is getting weirder by the day.
Explicitly sexual depictions of characters from a kid's show shouldn't be in a kid's space, obviously, but...
The older audience can at times "forget" they're participating in a community dedicated to a show catered to the ages 13-17 and let slip mature topics/discussions which may be found disturbing by its targeted audience
Can you give some examples besides explicit art (which you're also talking about teens so they're generating that crap too)?
What discussions about what do you mean?
Gatekeeping is just, in general, ridiculous. Adults are the bulk of readers of YA fiction. Kids also read adult books, and watch "adult" (not porn, I mean general stuff not aimed at children explicitly) shows and movies, and vice versa. There's nothing wrong with that.
Also, your title encompasses a lot more than adults talking about shows aimed at kids. It says kids shouldn't interact with things aimed at adults -- so get those kids out of all Star Wars and Marvel crap?
Along with every other demographic crossover. I shouldn't watch something theoretically aimed at women?
Gatekeeping is just, in general, ridiculous. Adults are the bulk of readers of YA fiction. Kids also read adult books, and watch "adult" (not porn, I mean general stuff not aimed at children explicitly) shows and movies, and vice versa. There's nothing wrong with that.
There's nothing wrong about be interested in something out of the aimed age demographic. It's a problem when some individuals go out of their way to promote their ideas that doesnt resonate well with a primarily underage audience. for instance, bringing up darker topics/implications of a kids show to the aimed audience can prove to be problematic.
There's nothing wrong about be interested in something out of the aimed age demographic. It's a problem when some individuals go out of their way to promote their ideas that doesnt resonate well with a primarily underage audience. for instance, bringing up darker topics/implications of a kids show to the aimed audience can prove to be problematic.
Again, can you give an example?
What, Oscar the Grouch is actually a homeless heroin addict?
jk he's obviously not homeless.
Oscar the Grouch is actually a homeless heroin addict?
Caillou has late stage cancer?
In one of the shows I'm currently watching, the protagonists end up becoming a couple. Some people have made it their life's work to create suggestive fanart and escalate discussions discussing the possibility Procreation between the couple DESPITE the characters being in their mid teens.
The artists and writers of such work get off scot free because "shows are meant to be enjoyed by all ages" type argument
How do you know that this content isn't being created by fans within the demographic? People in their mid-teens aren't exactly known for their devotion to chastity. If teens see teen characters hooking up, and write fan fiction about it, even dirty fan fiction, what then?
It seems like you are assuming the lewd content is being generated solely by adults in the space, but for the teen demographic I'm willing to bet that many of the calls are coming from within the house.
The artists and authors are pretty open about them being adults in those communities
This seems like a rather limited concern that doesn't necessarily apply to all communities or demographics.
Can't this problem be addressed by content moderation? Many communities ban certain types of content, language, or NSFW images. Afterall, teens can post inappropriate images as well.
I'm not against the idea of having safe-spaces for younger audiences, but I'm just not sure how that would be implemented. What you can't do is ban adults from liking or making communities for their content... that's just not going to happen.
This is why it's really important for adults to be monitoring their kids internet habits. There really is no practical way to ensure that content filters or whatever are working.
I understand
OP clearly has real examples of this in their life and I'm very interested to know what they are. What shows/books/fandoms? This would add important context to the conversation.
Thank you! In my early teens I was very much obsessed with the book series "Artemis Fowl" and "Percy Jackson". Both series are aimed at young adults. But when I took to the internet to find communities to share my ideas/theories, I was mostly greeted with suggestive art/inappropriate works of fiction which were greenlit by such communities because "they can be enjoyed by an older audience too".
It's the same with one of the shows I've taken to watch: The Owl House. People are more than willing to draw suggestive art of teen protagonists because "shows can be enjoyed by an older audience too" kinda argument.
If you're currently a teen, then Artemis Fowl came out before you were even born. Sure, making suggestive fan art of minors is a very weird and inappropriate thing to do, but that is not what you said in your CMV. A bunch of the fans of Artemis Fowl will be adults because they were the target audience when it came out at one point and still remember it fondly. There's nothing inherently wrong with them having a conversation about it with someone who isn't adult just because they had too many birthdays since then.
True, But some refuse the follow the actual timeline set by the books and use the release date of the first book to determine the ages. for example, The MC is 12 in the first book, but 17 in the end of the last book, very much underage. The logic they use is "If artermis was 12 when the book first came out(2001), he should be 23 when the last book debut(2012)". It contradicts with the predetermined ages set by the author himself. That's how they justify discussing mature ideas (related to procreation of the MC with another species) in communities intended for a teen audience. the most popular discord server for Artemis Fowl for example, is full of this
The older audience have the right to enjoy anything whether it may or may not be outside the target demographic, but should refrain from discussing ideas that may be considered sensitive for the set demographic
But that kind of canonical stasis where a character can't age when canon isn't going leads to absurd conclusions like "no one can discover the series once it's ended and engage with the fandom until they've finished the series as the "canon timeline" has passed so they can't speculate" or some weird MatPat-esque grimdark theory about them living a time loop or saying events that didn't specifically happen in the books were either just Last-Thursdayed in or somehow lost time from the characters' perspective (like I hate to bring up Harry Potter given its controversy but since it had a 19-years-later epilogue does that mean (whether or not they actually happened) Harry etc. have no memory of 19 years of their lives that include marriage and the birth and early years of their children))
, I was mostly greeted with suggestive art/inappropriate works of fiction which were greenlit by such communities because "they can be enjoyed by an older audience too".
Can you clarify further. Does this mean that the most mainstream places on the internet for Artemis Fowl or Percy Jackson had suggestive art, or does this mean that you were bad at google and stumbled on suggestive art sites that have these IPs?
People call it "rule 34" of the internet that there will be a pornification of any IP that exists no matter what.
Isn't it just easier for you to avoid the pornographic-centered communities and just exist in the non-rule 34 communities?
Thanks! But it was not r34. But in some fandoms, they've rationalized creating r34 art of such characters as long as they specify the characters in the art being a "timeskip" version, implying such actions take place few years after they turned of age
So drawing/writing porn of adults is bad because those adults used to be kids?
But (in addition to the absurd conclusions that kind of canonical stasis leads to) how would that kind of logic react to a show like Totally Spies that is not only such a fetish-content-adjacent kids show that it has a lot of r34 (as well as stuff that almost gets there) on places like DeviantArt but also is one where as the series progresses the young main characters go from high school to college meaning at some point they must have had their 18th birthdays (it just wasn't mentioned because it wasn't relevant to the plot of an episode) meaning whether or not "spicy" fanart/fanfic of the show is technically depicting a minor depends on when in the show it's placed
I was mostly greeted with suggestive art
When I google "Artemis Fowl" and "Percy Jackson", I get none of that. Your algorithm is showing 😆
you do realize you have to visit forums and other discussions threads too right? I specifically talked about "interacting" with such communities, Not just plain googling :)
As someone who was a teenager and into Artemis Fowl, there was a nonzero chance that I wrote one of those 'inappropriate works of fiction' you saw, again, as a teenager. This would not solve your issue.
Does this mean teenagers can't participate in any communities related to shows targeted at adults? This would include any movies rated R or TV with violence, nudity, or sexual content. No music with curse words or adult themes, no video games with violent or sexual content. From now on, all these belong to us and us alone. Kids can stick to kid stuff, or at least that's all they should talk about in public forums.
How does that sound?
Edit: spelling
You're twisting my words. I just dont want the person I'm sharing my interests with a certain community aimed for people my age being twice/thrice my age.
I'm not twisting your words. What if adults started using the same logic? "I just don't want to share online spaces with people half my age. It's for their protection!"
IMO this would do very little to stop predatory behavior, but would affect people acting in good faith.
If you want a space for teens, then find one or create one. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't have that. But if that's not what a space already is, what's the use complaining? Why try and make this kind of broad moralistic argument when you don't want the underlying logic to be applied to you in the same way? You want to gatekeep based on age, but you don't want others to gatekeep you based on age.
Reddit is a space full of adult content and adult people. Do you think it's dangerous or creepy to be here? If not, how would you feel if you were excluded from participating based on your age?
the problem comes in when an older audience find their way into communities made by teens FOR the teens. ideologies differ with age and thats when the problem comes in. When you consider that fact that these shows are advertised to appeal to the age ranged 13-17, older folks worming their way into kids shows to share their ideas becomes a problem
Ok I guess I agree if you frame it that way. But if it's just like a subreddit for some anime I don't see the big deal.
Sorry kid, you’re not allowed to be on this subreddit. This is a subreddit targeted at adults who are interested in debate.
Never knew being underage restricted my privileges to express my opinion, but okay.
If you're interested in debate, please enlighten me. I've replied to almost all the points the members in this subreddit have brought up, and I have to add, they were much more civilized when it came to debating than you are.
How dare you speak to me regarding a subreddit we both like?!? We are different ages!
I was specifically talking about certain communities with a set target demographic, for example: rated from ages 13-17. And I sure don't want someone like you in there
Woosh.
Ever since animated shows/movies got popular with the older folk, companies have included ideologies/struggles experienced by the adults to "resonate" more with them.
Go watch any American cartoon aimed at kids from the 40s through, well, today. They were filled with adult jokes aimed at adults and very inappropriate for kids, but phrased in a way to keep them relatively hidden from younger kids.
That was masking done well. It's done by disney movies too. But some corporations take it just too far. Discussing queer rights in a kids show aged 13-17 is not something to be normalized. I'm more than fine with queer representation. Just leave it at that. Those shows aimed at kids are NOT meant to resonate with the hardships/discrimination faced by a Queer adult for example. They should educate, but not enforce for the sake of "resonance" with the older demographic
I don't think that shows meant for teens with queer representation are trying to force storylines of struggles only adults face onto queer teens, the only times I've ever seen representation of adult-but-not-in-the-sexual-sense queer struggles on teen shows is either queer adult side characters or cases where the show follows its teenage protagonists past high school and into college or something and that particular arc occurs late enough in the show that the involved queer characters are already 18
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Why are you afraid to interact with 30-40 year olds?
I am uncomfortable with sharing the same fandom/community aimed at teens my age with a much older audience. It's just weird to think that someone far outside the target demographic could be interested in material specifically made for kids
You just restated your view, I wanted to know why it’s weird and makes you uncomfortable.
Also why should your discomfort mean someone shouldn’t like something?
Target demographics are not set in stone. Most popular works are popular because they have broad appeal outside their main target demographic.
The old Disney animated movies remain classics because there are some 'in jokes' for the parents.
The MCU managed to make superheroes popular with women as well as men.
Telling people "stay out of this, it's not for you" is a death sentence to the work. It's a meme because a lot of recent flops have been heralded by the producers telling people that, and then being surprised when they don't turn up.
Do you think this is how life works anywhere else? Teenagers, generally speaking, do not get very many teen-only spaces where adults cannot enter. Even in schools there's adult staff members, even in teen nightclubs there's adult employees, etc. Do you think you're entitled to never having to talk to an adult in your life?
There's absolutely some issues with the sexualization of children's media not being properly blocked from the eyes of people who should not or do not want to see it, but that sexualization does not have to come exclusively from adults. Especially in media meant for teenagers, there's nothing stopping teenagers from coming up with the exact same theories, headcanons, discussions, and fanart as adults. Teenagers can absolutely sexualize characters you like just as much as adults do, if not more so.
Also, animation has added stuff for the adults in the room since the very beginning. I don't know why you're claiming otherwise.
Is this specific to age (and specific to older fans)? Or does it apply to other demographic considerations such as gender, race, religion, orientation, etc?
Only age I think. If resonate/relate with a fictional character It would most likely be due to their experiences at said age.
And how about if the target is adult but younger than you? Is it really bad for a 90 year old to interact with 30 year old fans?
IMO, Its weird. discussing something you share a passion with someone way out of your age range? I dunno... doesnt sit well with me
Bro if you can’t handle that, wait until you experience real problems. You’ll get bulldozed.
Dunno how a display of concern reflects on my inability to cope with "real" problems. Be civil here
But like, you're 90. Maybe you get into something that is primarily directed at young adults, where are you going to find other 90 year old fans? Besides, if you aren't trying to do some weird seduction thing, it's good when people interact across age lines. We don't really want a more stratified society, it should be more normal to interact broadly.
Say that someone made a show that glorified suicide aimed at teens, I think concerned adults should be able to come out and say that's not okay.
Not to mention the target demographic is subjective, could someone make a show 'for white people' and use your logic to tell people of colour not to criticise them?
I think I havent done good job at expressing my ideas, sorry. Anyone should be able to enjoy in any piece of media they like regardless of their age. But they should not actively take part in discussions that are primarily aimed at the targeted demographic. for example: I, a teen, am engaged in a conversation regarding my favorite teenage couple/ship in a show. It would be weird for an adult in their 30s-40s to be "shipping" couple teens from a show aimed at teens specifically.
Dude, I'm in my 40s and grew up watching animated shows in the 80s and 90s. I didn't just stop and not watch AtLA, for example, in 00s because "gotta be an adult and give up your interests" or however some people imagine it works...
And it's not that "animated shows got popular with older folk" it's that many of us grew up and sustained our interest in a style of entertainment we've always enjoyed all our lives. And some of us became the creators of new animated shows and materials... so, yeah, older people are both creators and fans of animated material because it's our culture, too. Older people also created and first joined some of the fandom spaces that now exist. Younger people showing up and wanting to push us out doesn't mean we're leaving
So much to unpack here but I'll just make a few points.
You're making a massive gatekeeping argument, and these shows don't exist in a vacuum. They wouldn't even all exist if adults with expendable income didn't buy merchandise.
Edit - I hit submit too early
It seems short sighted to assume you'll just stop liking the things you enjoy now when you become an adult as well.
Also, let's take the example of "The Animaniacs" which was a children's cartoon from the 90s. I watched it as a kid. I watched it again as an adult and realized more than half of the jokes and references were lost on me as a child. It didn't just "not work" as you claim, rather, it was crafted in a way with broad appeal where the younger audience just wasn't experienced enough to even understand what was even going on beyond the super obvious main plot points and slapstick cartoonish humor. Stripping out the layers would've probably have made the show entirely unpleasant to even create for the animators and director. It would've been on par with the likes of animated Baby Shark cartoons.
Regarding degenerates and making art, if it makes them happy and isn't harming anyone then I say live and let live.
Also there's been anime intended for adult audiences, I'm not talking about Hentai, since before you were even born. It's a false assumption on your part to think it's all intended for people ages 13-17. Arguing bringing adult themes into shows just suggests to me that you aren't ready to enjoy those themes.
A really good example of something that's worked for decades is Batman. It was originally a comic. I don't even know how often it was live action. It deals with mature themes and Batman was made from Bruce Wayne's tragic circumstances. Batman doesn't work at all without him witnessing his parents getting murdered right in front of him as a young boy. Your current view just says Batman should have never worked because it makes you uncomfortable that adult themes are in a comic/cartoon and that it's been around so long that even my now deceased grandparents would have known what it was and possibly even enjoyed it without me.
the show runners and producers don't care who consumes their product as long as they make their money. it's called a target demographic because there is a market niche to exploit.
Mental masturbation at its best 🤜🧠💦
By the same logic, should teenagers not interact with the community surrounding content where they are not the target demographic?
On a different, more substantial note, I think the problem you’re trying to solve isn’t about topic, but about context. I think it can be extremely beneficial for kids to talk about their interests with like-minded adults, but of course it has to be done in a respectful way. The solution to your problem isn’t to ban adults from certain topics, it’s to ban adults from certain spaces (as well as kids from certain spaces).