BBC analysis of Cole Palmer - England vs Slovakia
AnaylsisPass to Bellingham wide open on the penalty spot also poor
Basically. Spray and pray lol
This is some insane pr, he was not good. Lost the ball way too much. back to the bench.
Cole Palmer vs Slovakia -
54 mins played 1/3 dribbles completed 0 shots on target 0 goals 0 assists 0/4 completed crosses 73% pass completion 12 times lost possession
To put that into context. Against a tired Slovakia team he lost the ball more than Saka has all tournament in much more minutes. Palmer is not the answer. Mainoo however was great.
Everyone else has better pass completion because they are all playing safe scared football that was the point of the video that sailed past your head
Yep everyone but Palmer is playing scared football only he's doing anything. Palmer for president blah blah blah 🥱. He must taste great 😆
Palmer for president you mr opinion is invalid as your a yank
Not a yank lol it means stop glazing 😆
Ok stop trolling little boy you never got me bye bye
I’d rather have Palmer take risks than Saka taking 0 risks because we don’t look like scoring. say what stats you want but Palmer looks the sharpest attacker we have at the moment. We scored 4 goals all tournament and no shots on target against Slovakia until Jude’s bicycle kick, palmer looks most likely to unlock a defence and saka looks tired.
So if palmer starts does exactly what be has been doing attacking wise which statistically is worse than the other attackers and off the bench against tired defenders and we still struggle like we have been then what's the answer?
I'd understand if he came on and scored or assisted or something but to come on and give the ball away a lot but look cool doing it is not enough to drop the players ahead of him. And i guarantee its similar in training which is why Southgate makes the decision. The grass always looks greener on the other wise but if you actually analyse it you'll see its really not. If people were calling out for Gordon I'd get it. And Mainoo played great. Palmer literally hasn't done anything more than toney did in 5 minutes of football for England.
For the record I’d ideally start Gordon Palmer Saka and have Jude drop next to Rice but it doesn’t seem like Gareth will ever do that.
Saka hasn’t scored and made 1 deflected assist so far, it’s not like he’s setting the world alight. If he had been playing to his usual level I wouldn’t argue against him starting
It’s not really fair to measure Palmer statistically since he’s only played about 60 minutes the whole tournament compared to other attacking midfielders who have played around 350 minutes.
Didn’t look at his best against Slovakia but he looked great against Slovenia, I think it’s worth a shot at least
The way palmer plays when he comes on he can create something because he takes risks which is something you need from a substitute. But the amount of times he loses the ball or a pass doesn't make it or he doesn't beat his man would make him look bad from the start. Foden and saka one thing they're both good at in retaining the ball under pressure and bringing other people into the game. Palmer is a good impact sub but if he was to start I think it'd need to be at 10 which is where Bellingham is playing. Problem is Bellingham as good as he is has a hero complex and isn't disciplined enough to drop back it'd leave rice in a 1 man midfield more often than not and Southgate doesn't have the balls to put him in his place the way an Ancelloti or a Pep would. I'd love to see Gordon on the left though and even dropping Kane as wild as it sounds. I'd even try walker LB and Trent in the right.
Fair enough. Maybe it’s instructions? Like I could see Saka vs tired legs very effective and to kill a game as he has better decision making, and Palmer against a low block has the passing and vision to unlock a defence so a few risks here and there would be good
Wider issue is Southgate hasn’t rotated enough so we don’t actually have information on what our best 11 is even at the quarters
It could not be more blatantly obvious we need a Gordon on the left
Yeah I agree I'd love to see Gordon play. Worst part is as we get further into the tournament he's gonna be more scared to rotate and take risks. I feel like if he starts the same players he can use them as scapegoats if we go out. Watching Foden on the left next to Trippier is sad to see.
Mainoo wasn't that great either, not progressive enough. just bc it's not Gallagher it's not getting talked about. Wharton is the profile you need next to rice
That's not true at all
Motherfucker needs me to pull stats to back that up over the eye test
Saka is dispossessed 17 times in Slovakia match.
Palmer has better Progressing passing distance, better Progressive carries, better crosses, better xA, better progressive passes into final 3rd and Penalty Area even better at claiming Throw-Ins per 90 than Saka while playing less. He simply better than Saka at fixing build-up and creativity issue that England has
Are you OK?? The source you posted shows saka ahead in nearly every area 😆
And it shows Palmer has a low pass success rate. Doing all that against tired legs late in the game too. Even less impressive 😬
Not per 90, obvious Saka would tally more with more minutes than 90.
Just watch Theo Hernandez defended against Belgium, any experienced defender like him will easily pocket Saka like in the last World Cup matchup.
🥱 you're waffling now mate give it up
chelsea fan in there worried he might get injured. twat lol
A lot of club fans (whose national teams probably never make international tournaments) act like players playing for their national team is some sort punishment that’s forced upon them and not in fact one of the biggest honors in football.
Pundits should be clamouring for Gordon to start to actually balance the team. Not fawning over someone who does a slightly better job than foden just from the other side
His performance just proves why he doesn’t start. Refreshing to see someone actually attack, but he ran around like a headless chicken and kept giving the ball away. As opposed to someone like saka who takes his man on when it’s possible, but is smart enough to know when it’s not gonna work and turns and resets the attack
But that's just not been working for us in the tournament so far. The only reason we're still in it is because Jude's scored a bicycle kick in the 95th minute 😂😂
The attack's not been clicking at all, and eventhough the problem is predominantly the left side (and fixing that would make Saka's job easier), he himself has not created much whilst starting every game.
Palmer may look like a headless chicken, but we haven't conceded when he's on the pitch so he's clearly not that much of a liability.
Wym we haven’t conceded when he’s been on😭😭😭😭 he’s only played 30 mins of 2 games for one. And we’ve only conceded 2 goals the whole tournament. Saka was our best creator yesterday and in the tournament as a whole. Trouble is Kane is hanging around the halfway line when we’re trying to put crosses in. Palmer ran around a bit and gave the ball away.
Well that's the point isn't it. We haven't even had a chance to see what Palmer can really do because we've given him 2 30 minute cameos in 4 games, like you said. Saka may or may not have been our best creator of the tournament. That's a pretty meaningless achievement though considering England have created fuck all so far. Our best creator has had the opportunity to start all 4 games, has created like 3 chances, 2 of which came in the same game and his only "assist" came from a deflection. The attack's been toothless and like it or not, he's been a part of that. I'd like to see what Palmer can do with those minutes, considering he was arguably more creative this season and didn't need any time to settle at Chelsea.
I agree Kane hasn't helped by dropping in, but Kane isn't getting dropped. So you have to work around that. If Saka's struggling, you can't just keep deflecting the blame. Let's see what Palmer brings and if it's just as toothless I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong. A lot of people scared to even give Palmer a start because they're afraid he'll displace their favourite player.
I completely get you but out of all our attack, saka is the only one who consistently looks like he’s trying. Foden inexistent, Bellingham only turned up for his goal. Same with Kane etc. I’d sub all of them off before saka and for that reason I’d much rather try Gordon on the left instead of foden.
I agree with Gordan on the left over Foden as the first change. But after that it's about the quality of the competition. Palmer runs Saka a lot closer than anyone runs Bellingham or anyone runs Kane. Bellingham's just him. Said it before the tournament, doesn't matter if you don't rate him, he's got some kind of plot armour. And he also brings a lot of physicality to the team that we'd lack with anyone else in the 10. Kane I can see the argument for wanting someone else, who's quicker, won't drop in, will hold the line, make runs in behind and stretch the pitch etc. But at the end of the day it's Kane. Captain and hundreds of goals in his career, plus about 40 this season. We always have a chance of scoring with him on the pitch.
And whilst I rate that Saka's usually the one trying the hardest of the 4, it doesn't change the fact that Palmer's his competition and runs him close. I've wanted to see both Gordan and Palmer come in, and see what the attack looks like then. I'm not too bothered about Saka vs Palmer. You can't go wrong with either. But feel like Saka's had plenty of chances now and I'd like to see Palmer start a game.
I don’t understand the need to put down saka to put Palmer up. Reality is they need to play together
Saka has more shot creating actions, key passes per 90, crosses, xA, key passes, tackles + interceptions, clearances, touches, Carries, aerial duels won. As per fbref
Palmer has 50 more progressive passes than saka but saka has 500 more touches in the final third than Palmer
Obviously the answer is to play them together and get the most out of them. To say saka isn’t an initiative taker is genuinely brain dead to me when he’s easily the most consistent threat arsenal and England have had for 2 years
Play him and Palmer together and stop putting down saka.
Shut up.
Saka has more touches because has played three and half games mores than Palmer you bellend.
This is across the 23/24 season dumbass.
How am I puting Saka down though? I literally said in my comment "I rate Saka". The problem is, people aren't even allowed to suggest Palmer coming in for him at RW without people like you taking it as me criticising Saka. I think Saka's elite, but I also think Palmer's slightly better.
I'm familiar with their fbref profiles. Cherrypicking stats isn't going to change my opinion. I'm going off what I see when I watch them and taking into account the context of the situations they've been playing in.
Since you made the underlying stats comparison, I'll address it. Dunno why you've used per 90 stats for some measures and raw stats for others, and again have cherry picked to favour Saka a bit.
Touches and carries not even used per 90 means basically nothing 😂😂
But Palmer's had more of them per 90. If you wanna look at ball progression, Palmer's progressive distance per 90 carrying the ball is higher than Saka too.
His take on success rate is much higher too (50% vs 40.2%), which you didn't even mention. And they attempt basically the same number per 90 so it isn't as if Saka's less successful but attempts it way more.
Saka's xA is marginally higher, but then Palmer's xAG is higher. And Palmer's actual assists have been way higher anyway. xA and xAG are models, they aren't perfect. If the models can't even conclusively prove Saka should have more assists, they aren't even worth bringing up.
I mean trying to counter 50 more progressive passes with 500 more touches in the final third is such a weird thing to bring up. A progressive pass shows the player is trying to play forwards, often with a riskier pass that could result in them losing possession. A touch in the final third shows very little. In fact a player taking loads of unnecessary touches can even slow the game down. Touches in general is such a useless stat when used in this way and has no correlation to progressive passes.
Palmer's progressive passes are way higher, but that's negated by Saka's touches. Things Saka does more/better aren't negated by anything Palmer does. Just a very biased way to compare them.
Again, didn't even mention that Palmer's outscored his non-penalty goal xG this season, whereas Saka hasn't outscored his. Palmer's been a better finisher this season but let's not talk about that.
Need to stress that I'm not the one making these comparisons. Just pointing out how biased and cherrypicked the way you went about it was. The stats also mean nothing when you don't talk about the various roles they've played for their teams, who they've been playing alongside, how teammates can impact certain stats. You'd need to make a very long video or write a very long essay to make a fair comparison using only stats. That's why these stats mean nothing when used in the wrong way.
Saka has higher work rate off the ball for instance, since he makes more tackles etc per 90, but Palmer's one of the best in the world at converting a defensive action into a goalscoring opportunity. If you can fit him in the team and have some stability behind him, you can let him do what he does best which is bait the press and convert that interception into a chance on goal. Again, stop ignoring the things on fbref that show these strengths. Literally says he's in the 99th percentile for SCA and GCA from defensive actions.
It's very clear you either don't know how to use advanced metrics and are just going on fbref to find the numbers which Saka's higher in, or you do understand that there's nuance to these stats and purposely ignore it to paint Saka in a better light.
At the end of the day, football is a complex game and the stats themselves are rudimentary. Add on top of that, people like you not actually looking at all the stats available, picking and choosing when to use per 90 stats, not acknowledging that a 0.1 per 90 difference in a stat means pretty much nothing, not acknowledging that all these stats are dependent on the roles players have in teams and their teammates etc, and it's useless.
Again, you proved basically nothing with your comment other than the fact that you're clearly biased and aren't willing to make a fair comparison.
Cherry-picking? It’s literally all the relevant stats available. The others stats that I’m not including don’t favour Palmer, saka and Palmer are even in them. ~5-10% difference. Also if they’re more in general then they’re more per90 too considering they’ve played similar minutes ….
Take on success is not much higher, 10 percent is literally nothing when they both have roughly 50 take ons completed. Difference is saka completes them in the final third not middle third so naturally % is a little lower.
Saka having nearly 500 more touches in the final third doesn’t matter since Palmer has 50 more passes? Yeah right mate. One of them is used to playing in the thick of things, the other is a floater in space who puts in passes. In a system with low possession and need to create things on your own, saka is easily the better fit to link up with non existent Kane than Palmer. Spray and pray football never works if you don’t have the system required to get the ball into the right places. It would be a possession nightmare
The stats back up what we see on the pitch, Palmer is a middle third chance creator killer and saka is a middle third space creator. So obvious to play them together.
Saka's attempted 20 more take ons and completed 3 less. That's a pretty significant difference in their ability to beat their man 😂😂
And you're clutching at straws with that final third vs middle third comment. Palmer is better at beating his man regardless of where he is on the pitch. Takes players on in the final third all the time.
I'll say it again, touches means fuck all. Like legit tells you absolutely nothing. Idk why're you're giving it any value whatsoever, especially trying to paint the picture that Saka having more touches makes him better or whatever point you're trying to make.
Progressive passes on the other hand is a very useful stat. Literally tells you how often/how good a player is at playing forwards. If they don't make progressive passes, it means stylistically they play much safer and should be expected to have a higher pass success rate. Palmer objectively makes riskier passes more frequently. 11% of Saka's passes in the Prem this season were progressive. 17.5% of Palmer's passes in the Prem this season we're progressive. Saka's average pass distance was 14.8 yards, Palmer's was 16.6 yards. He was passing forwards more and on average he was passing further. Yet Saka's pass completion rate was 75.6% and Palmer's was 80%.
That's how you give meaning to stats. Rather than just looking at fbref and saying "touches higher, Saka better." Palmer was passing forwards more, passing further and still had a higher success rate. Likewise, take on percentage shows he's objectively beating his man more often. And like I said before, Palmer's actually outscored his xG so has been a better finisher this season too.
I don't even like using stats to try and capture what players do. But you brought it up and tried to paint this picture like fbref proves Saka's been better. And you did it by picking and choosing when to use per 90 stats and when to use total stats, completely ignoring the things that Palmer was better at (e.g. the things above) and giving weight to completely meaningless things like touches.
They both have strengths and weaknesses and fbref does show this. But you gave a horrible misrepresentation of that. If you still can't concede that you were being ingenuine after me correcting you for a second time, I'm not gonna dignify you with another reply. You were ingenuine or just simply have no idea how to use stats and I called you out on it. You can either hold your hands up and admit that's the case, or keep believing your own bullshit. But choosing to ignore what certain stats say just because you have a Saka boner isn't going to make you right.
Why is there no mention on the amount of times he lost the ball..
Because no one gives a toss if you lose the ball when trying to make something happen. We needed to move the ball forwards and he did which more than made up for losing the ball occasionally
Exactly this. I'd rather players lose the ball making runs, taking risks, compared to losing the ball from sideways/backwards passing which is much worse.
But he didn’t make anything happen
Exactly.
He was making some things happen which ended with nothing as our left side was dead until Foden went off
0 chances created, 0 shots, 1 successful dribble, 0 successful crosses.
He really didn’t do that much, he just looks like he does stuff.
The stats aren't really fair considering he gave the ball on the byline to walker who flubbed a cross, he also put the ball into Bellingham who fell over, and he set up tony for the shot at the end, and it was his cross that led up to the second goal.
The stats don't always show what actually happened on the pitch. At least Palmer's cross in the first half of extra time was whipped in and beat the first man, unlike a lot of the shit we've been seeing
No, he did stuff. Use your eyes. The stats mean nothing. If a player puts a ball in the box and it gets cleared, you can look at it as 0/1 successful crosses, or you can look it at from the perspective that we're puting the other team under pressure, the clearance could go anywhere, we're trying to break down the opposition and aren't just shoehorning around their block.
If you watch the game and he looks like he's doing stuff, that's because he is. Trying to retrospectively say he played bad by summarising a football game in a few statistics means nothing.
He's also not getting the minutes to do half that stuff. Saka's created 3 chances all tournament and he's started all 4 games. He's had 4 shots in those 4 starts and 3 of them came in one of the games. And none of them have been on target. He's averaged 2 successful dribbles per start aswell. Baring in mind he's obviously playing way more minutes so should be racking up way more of these things.
Football's a fluid game, you can't disprove people who think they've watched someone have a good game with a couple cherrypicked stats. You should also be holding Palmer to the same standard you're holding the likes of Saka. Palmer's expected to score off the bench for him to have a good game but if Saka holds the ball up and shows tenacity he's played well.
I'm not trying to turn this to Palmer vs Saka, but it's clear that the criticism from people like you stems from the fact you back Saka in some form and don't like the notion of Palmer being compared to him. Because Palmer's objectively doing a good job given the very limited minutes he's been afforded this tournament.
Palmer has not been good. Saka went right back to rw at the start of et bc Palmer did nothing. Chelsea fans just grasping for straws
I mean that's just a lie 😂😂
Southgate changed everything up in ET. He out a second striker on and switched to a 532. Saka at RWB, Eze at LWB. Rice sitting in front if the back 5, Bellingham to the left of him, Palmer to the right. Kane and Toney up front.
Southgate made a tactical change and switched up the whole team. You sound so deluded with the narratives you make up in your head. This is the England sub, not the Gunners sub ffs. Put your rivalry aside.
He created a lot of chances, you can see from that video alone...
He statistically had 0 chances created, 0 shots, 0 successful crosses and 1 successful dribble
He statistically had 0 chances created
Then the stats are either wrong or missing stuff, because he clearly created a few in that video, there is literal proof
A chance is defined as the pass preceding a shot on goal. It has a specific definition. That's where you're getting confused. Having said that, Palmer played well and the people cherrypicking a couple of stats to "prove" he played badly are mental. Idk what they expect him to do when he's had barely any minutes this tournament but either way he's always looking to play forwards and take players on, which has opened up the game for us. Doesn't matter if he gives the ball away because at least he's taking risks. De Bruyne has average pass accuracy stats but it doesn't mean anything because he's not afraid to try and thread 10 passes until one of them comes off.
Give Palmer more time and eventually he creates something. The more you limit his minutes, the more difficult it is for him. He's handicapped rn.
chance is defined as the pass preceding a shot on goal. It has a specific definition. That's where you're getting confused
OK fair enough, he created dangerous situations then in maybe more accurate
He was the reason we got the two throw ins to tie the match
Oh congratulations to him then!
What a contribution! No one could have provided such an important performance
No focus on the part of the game where his “making things happen” was a series of terrible crosses from 35 yards out.
I feel like Saka was honestly just as lively in the first 30 minutes (I.e. trying but not really creating anything) and yet he doesn’t get anywhere near this type of reaction.
It feels like England fans just want the shiny new thing, rather than looking at the other wing where the issues clearly are.
Ex English players love their pale boys, dont they?
Saka doesn't look to play forwards nearly as much though. He'll play the majority of the game and have the same number of moments where he tries to make things happen as Palmer who's on the pitch half the time.
Give Palmer Saka's minutes, and he attempts more of those passes and the odds of England actually creating something go up.
Honestly I'd much rather see Palmer make a series of terrible crosses for the whole game knowing that he'll eventually put one on a plate for someone (as he's proved throughout this season) than Saka shoehorning it round the back like all the other starters for the majority of the game and occasionally rolling his man to put a ball in the box.
If Saka played as progressively and fearlessly as Palmer, it would be a fair argument. But right now it's a choice between 2 players who's crested basically nothing clearcut in the tournament so far, but one player attempts to create something far more regularly than the other.
I think that’s because Saka is smarter, honestly. He doesn’t go at his FB all the time because goes after them when there’s an opportunity to win it. That’s not to put Palmer down at all, or imply he’s dumb, he’s a brilliant player, I just think he’s more likely to try and take on a triple team and lose it than Saka would be, for example, or try to whip a cross in when there’s no one making a run for it.
It’s why Saka is so brutally efficient in creating opportunities - it’s definitely been drilled into him by Arteta, he’s more likely to recycle the ball and look for the next opportunity than lose it and have to track back.
Now I concede that makes him slightly less of a wild card, but it also makes him far securer in possession and when he goes for it, he does tend to beat his man and create an opportunity.
Realistically it ends with the same offensive output, but less defending is required after losing the ball.
Perhaps. But I'm yet to see this brutal efficiency at creating in the Euros. I agree he's more secure in possession and offers you more defensively. But I think Palmer's still more creative. I'd play Palmer if you can cover for what he lacks defensively, which we can imo.
I think Palmer is the perfect sub for him.
Walker has been trash this tournament which definitely hasn’t helped Saka at all. The pass to him normally brings him off the line, and allows him to roll his defender and create - Walker regularly gives it to Saka coming short, who promptly gets his Achilles raked and we get a crappy free kick that no one wants.
I think the main issue is that everyone is struggling because it’s so easy to defend the right, as you don’t need to worry about the left at all. They literally ignored Trippier on the few overlaps he did make yesterday to make sure they had more men over on the right and in the middle.
It chokes everything up and means there’s always at least 2 men to beat. Fix the left wing and I think whoever is on the right will have a field day.
I completely agree with that. Don't think the right is a problem at all and both Saka or Palmer would run riot if someone like Gordan was starting on the left (and preferably Shaw returned). Palmer over Saka for me is just a preference, not that I think we can't play well with Saka there. I'd just like to see him start 1 game, because we've seen 4 from Saka. Would put my mind at ease if he starts and is just as toothless. But still want to see it first before assuming.
Spot on. Defenses can double and triple team England's right bc the left is useless and all coming inside. Walker dwells on the ball too much too so defense can recover in transition. Mainoo still not the answer next to rice either which isnt helping. Still not progressive enough, Wharton should play if were being honest and a profile that pairs perfect with rice but we will never see it
He has brutal efficiency if has players playing off him. Walker needs 5 touches to control the ball, mainoo doesn’t know how to exploit the space saka makes and Kane puts his bum into his man waiting for saka to play to his feet
Palmer + saka saw saka released 3-4 times because Palmer knows how to release him and exploit the space saka makes
Why is it either or, the answer is to play them both, anyone else who says otherwise is just a bitter rival fan. Foden needs to go for Palmer 100%
I'm not a bitter rival fan. I rate Saka highly. And Saka + Palmer could work. But I'm looking at improving the team while maintaining balance/not changing the entire system.
Gordan in for Foden is a no trainer for me. Like regardless of what you do with Palmer and Saka, that just seems like the obvious way you could immediately improve this team. After that, I think the team works fine and has a decent chance regardless of whether you play Saka or Palmer RW because they're both top. I don't think you need to try and fit them both in the same starting lineup (eventhough that could potentially work in some way). Just think you need to pick one and bring the other off the bench. And personally, I'd start Palmer. Like that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Doesn't make me a blind hater of Saka.
Again, there is probably some world where you get Palmer and Saka on the same pitch linking up on the right, but idk how you do that without potentially creating balance issues in other areas. Think either Saka or Palmer at RW works, just pick one. And I'd pick Palmer. My opinion, and I'm allowed to have it. Doesn't mean I'm hating on Saka. Tired of this narrative that you can't suggest Palmer starts RW without shitting on Saka. It's literally just a preference over our starting lineup, which I've had and maintained since before the tournament even started.
There is. But it's mentioned positively because that's what happens when you're always looking to play forwards and take risks. One of England's biggest problems has been the starters not being willing to take risks and play forwards. Dunno how anyone can watch the game and say it's a problem when a player decides to try and thread a pass or put a ball in the box. That's exactly what we need more of, not backwards and sideways passing that makes the pass accuracy stats look good after the game.
If you sub someone on when the team needs to score but none of the starters are playing positively, it's also your job to put the team on the front foot and take those risks. If Palmer had come on and replicated what the others were doing (not giving the ball away but also not really looking to play forwards or take risks) that would've been even worse. It's his job as a sub to change things, even if it means his stats don't look good after the game.
Honestly baffles me how people disagree with this. He comes in and the game opens up. It's exactly what we've needed both times. Who cares if he gives the ball away? Half the time it has to be cleared and that second ball could be anyone's.
Because that's part of his game. He takes risks, and tries to make things happen. As a result he loses the ball a lot. As a Chelsea fan it's exactly the same for us, not everything he tries comes off, but the reason he's so brilliant is that he just keeps trying; that, and of course the fact that he has the ability to pull those things off singlehandedly.
Quite often you may look at a game and see he's 'statistically' not had the best performance as he's given the ball alway a few times and not completed all his dribbles etc. But at the same time he'll have been the most electric player on the pitch, it's just another indicator of why stats should always be second to the eye test. And taken with a large pinch of salt.
He was so bad, lol. I dont know what these idiots are talking about.
Ya sorry but I'm just not seeing it. He didn't take anyone on, didn't create anything, and was just spamming crosses.