User deleted post
[BocaChicaGal] The first corner leg of Tower 2 is now in place. 🔥🚀🔥
Happening NowUser deleted comment
18d
There were only two minutes between post and comment. That is super fast
Lightning speed. If you think about it, the second tower doesn't need to be ready for the catch attempt on IFT-5, it needs to be ready for the launch of IFT-6. SpaceX can do it.
They need a lot more equipment than just the tower if they are to launch. You have the QD mechanism, OLM, shower head, and all the plumbing and support tanks and equipment.
None of that is needed to catch a rocket. I'd much rather they just built the tower and the catch arms, even sticking with just a concrete pad. That would risk much less hardware and be far easier to repair should something go wrong.
Once they're confident in their ability to catch rockets then they can add all that other equipment and have two launch towers that can both also catch rockets.
I’m thinking this is what’ll happen!
By now I have the feeling this is gonna happen for real.
They are absolutely not going to delay their capability to increase launch cadence, still like the single most important thing to be increasing at this stage, for sake of something like the tower catching, which is much less important.
But it doesn't matter, because everyone seems to be way WAY overestimating the damage that would result from a failed attempt at a tower catch. An almost entirely empty booster does not have a dry mass so great that essentially dropping it from a small height is going to be going any serious damage. It's basically a very thin soda can. It's not going to be damaging these massive reenforce structural elements of the tower nor is there going to be an explosion such that the less structurally sound equipment like the QDC arm, etc are going to be affected.
In order for a booster to get anywhere even near the tower, it has to be operating perfectly nominally. It's not just going to crash down from the atmosphere. If it's anywhere even remotely near the tower, it's functionally perfectly, so all the real plausible scenarios of a failed catch are all roughly equivalent to each other and to the scenario where the empty booster is dropped from near rest a few dozen meters off the ground and that's it.
But even so they value the new launch tower and launching V2 Starships way way more than they value perfecting the tower catching. They would never delay the former for the sake of the later, but luckily they don't have to.
because everyone seems to be way WAY overestimating the damage that would result from a failed catch attempt.
Don’t waste your breath, I’ve argued this for some time and, at best, I’m ignored. There seems to be some kind of implicit assumption that a 200 ton SH impact would be either at full orbital velocity or detonate with full propellant allá SN4-style. They forget this thing is almost empty and will only divert for landing at the last minute. They also forget how massive the tower and launch mount are or that tower and mount are just prototypes that could be repaired and/or replaced in 3-9 months depending on what spares are available.
Edit: the issue might be that there is so much time and emotion invested in the construction of the first tower and its infrastructure that people’s minds irrationally rebel at a large gap in Starship launch capability. This is why they can’t value the collected test data appropriately.
I'm right there with you. I'm dismayed at how persistent the notion is that a failed catch attempt would cause enough damage to cause significant delays to follow-on launches.
The damage from a failed catch attempt can’t be any worse than a crater under the OLM, and it only took them 6 months to fix that crater. Likely only a 4-6 month delay maximum if there’s a major catch disaster.
Not even 6 weeks.
Yeah I would even go as far as to argue that a failed tower catch isn't even a particularly big deal. Just cut up the scrap and haul it away and do the like 3 or 4 days worth of damage that might have accrued.
This is the 2nd tower we're talking about so it will have been built with all the lessens from the 1st and all its versions in mind surely including durability with respect to booster catches and potentially them failing.
Like, catching boosters and ships is one of the main functions this tower is being built for. Where did we ever even get the idea that a failed booster catch would be damaging at all? That would make the design of tower 2 so incredibly terrible, if it were hamstrung by a single failed catch, that I cannot believe in any good faith that SPX would do it.
"Resistance to being damaged by a booster after a failed catch" is one of the most basic primary qualities the tower needs to have and one of the most important metrics it should be judged by.
They also activated the deluge system at the time of the simulated landing. I suspect on an actual landing that'll be rerouted under where it's caught to further mitigate any damage.
Makes sense. We’ll have to keep our eyes out for additional deluge or rainbird equipment.
I’m trying to see how your argument would stand considering how violent the explosion of SN 10s landing was.
Yea, so violent it caused no damage to surrounding infrastructure whatsoever.
Unlikely. They want to go ahead and have a second tower that is able to launch V2 Starships. They want that ASAP. Delaying to do a catch-only version would delay the introduction of V2. And once the second tower is operational, they'll take the first tower offline so they can upgrade it. Then they'll have two towers, both of which can launch and catch. That's the redundancy they desire.
(This was briefly set out by Musk in a pep talk he did a few months ago.)
I didn't say they'd stop at it being a catch only tower, but whilst all the equipment is not present it gives SpaceX the opportunity to attempt the highest risk catch they'll do (their first) without risking all that equipment.
Once the catch is complete they can continue installing the rest of the launch hardware.
"Mr President, a second leg has supported the tower."
Two more to go..
Us: Wow, surprising theyre going to risk the tower with a catch for IFT-5
Spacex: But what about a second tower? ::Proceeds to build second tower in 3 months::
As long as tower 2 is planned to be finished for IFT-6, then potential destruction of tower 1 with a catch attempt of IFT-5 won’t slow anything down.
It definitely won't slow down the SpaceX team's heart rates or blood pressure that's for sure
I'd rather they risk the second tower for the catch. They don't need to install the OLM or QD arm and risk all that hardware in order to catch the rocket, and they could potentially get away without the shower head. That not only derisks the construction of the facilities at the second tower, it makes it easier to repair should something go wrong.
All they need is the tower and the arms. They may even get away with just a concrete pad, which is easier to repair and replace if it gets hit by a huge rocket coming in at speed.
They want to destroy the first tower at some point is my guess.
I'm sure they will fully replace all the hardware there. They're obviously known for iterating on designs so I'm sure there's a huge amount they'd do differently were they to tackle the problem again.
Until the OLM at least is in place at the second tower, I can't see them risking destroying the first tower. There's an immense amount of work involved in building and installing another OLM.
Until the OLM at least is in place at the second tower, I can't see them risking destroying the first tower.
We are talking about SpaceX. They have done the risk calculation and are willing to do it.
Have they said they're doing the catch with the primary tower? Do we know that, or are we speculating?
Elon said, within a month, (though probably likely more like 2 months). He also said, tower catch on the next flight.
The two statement combined indicate without doubt, it will be on the existing tower.
The two statement combined indicate without doubt, it will be on the existing tower
Why?
If you think they can build the second tower, catch arms, QD, orbital launch mount, sound suppression system, tank farm, etc. within the next two months, which is the premise of this thread that they can have the second tower ready for the 6th flight, then surely they can build just the tower and catch arms within one month (likely 2 when accounting for Elon time).
If anything I think it makes it more likely the catch will be with the 2nd tower. It's the far less risky path.
They seem confident that a catch attempt will not destroy the first tower. That's partly because their landing profile allows for abort to ocean landing after the engines have been relit for the landing burn. If there's a problem, Super Heavy won't come anywhere near the tower. And it's partly because if the engines are working, they are confident they can control the rocket with the necessary precision. Now that's been demonstrated at sea, they apparently don't feel the need to repeat it. (Just as they didn't repeat Ship's pivot after a single successful landing.)
Basically, they seem to think the risk/reward favours not waiting for the second tower. If they're wrong and the worst happens, they lose a few months, but even that's not the end of the world, and it probably won't happen.
If you think they can build the second tower, catch arms, QD, orbital launch mount, sound suppression system, tank farm, etc. within the next two months
I don't think that. It's ludicrous. As fast as they are, it can't take less than 6-10 months.
It’s already been explained that, that is NOT all needed simply for ‘catch’, only the tower is needed.
It’s already been explained that not all of that is needed simply for ‘catch’.
They may feel that the data they get from a catch test now may outweigh any other cost. An actual feed of data from what the arms are experiencing could force them to rethink critical parts of the setup.
It's possible, I guess it really depends how quickly they can get the second tower up and the arms installed. If they could do that in time for flight 5 then it would make far more sense to risk that tower and keep the launch system intact.
It’s useful, so I don’t see why, although later on they may want to remodel it, making it taller.
No, SpaceX may not want to risk the new pad, which is a new design from the foundation and up. The old pad has shortcomings that they found out after 4 test launches (difficulty to align ship with booster, reburishment required after launch, chopsticks too long). The old pad will be rebuilt anyway, so why not risk it at the time point that they think the new pad will be ready shortly afterwards. This could be wrong and lead to delay. But it is also important to gather real world data for booster-catching, so that improvement can be made base on the data.
so why not risk it at the time point that they think the new pad will be ready shortly afterwards
If it's at that point then yes I'd agree. However that 2nd pad is likely several months from being ready with the full infrastructure required for a launch. Damaging the first pad on the next flight would lead to a 4-6 month delay in flights IMHO.
So my preference would be that they risk only the 2nd tower and catch arms and not the only pad they have for launching flight 6, 7, and maybe 8 or even 9. There's plenty of data they need to gather from the rest of the flight profile as well - not least demoing engine relight and cargo bay door so they can start carrying payloads.
That would seem like the most logical pathway, if it can be fitted in the timeframe.
The old pad has shortcomings
Don’t forget that the bend in the launch mount’s legs is because they figured out late that the launch mount was too close to the ground for the SH plume.
I thought that was due to be a small degree of subsidence.
I am not sure that the chopsticks are too long - although the new ones are shorter. It’s always possible to chop a bit off of them if that were really a problem.
More likely it will just get a bump, rather than a crash.
Not just any tower - it’s going to be a taller tower !
“Why build one when you can have 2 at twice the price?” ~ S.R. Hadden
Some of you might not remember, but between the last suborbital hop and the launch of IFT-1 was nearly two years. In the intervening years, these sorts of updates were the most exciting thing coming out of starbase. AND IT IS STILL EXCITING
I'm a slut for infrastructure
I loved watching the tower sections get lifted by the giant crane
There is something special about watching the largest crane you’ve ever seen in your life putting together a launch tower for the largest rocket ever built.
They grow up so quickly.
part of the tower itself or corner parts of what will be the concrete base structure that supports the tower?
pretty cool either way...
They are legs alright but it also looks like they are going to be tied into the concrete base of the tower.
Was the construction of tower 1 the same? This means they can begin stacking very soon. I thought they need to complete the concrete base first.
I am not sure of the order of construction of the first tower but it also seems to have steel corner legs on the concrete base section.
So the vertical load of the rest of the tower is taken by the steel and the concrete provides blast protection and likely acoustic/vibration dampening for the whole structure. Of course the tower legs themselves are filled with concrete to provide stability against vibration.
Thanks again.
I am not sure of the order of construction of the first tower but it also seems to have steel corner legs on the concrete base section.
I seem to recall, that the concrete base was complete, before they began stacking, but I don't trust my memory on this.
Yes it looks like they added rebar and poured concrete corner legs and then added protective steel plates around the outside of the "legs".
The concrete base is already built.
The Tale of Two Towers
I felt like alliteration.
Damn it! I was going to post "One Spaceship to rule them all!" in Tengwar, but it just comes out as jibberish on Reddit!
Tower, with his arms wide
Shaka (maybe), when the Starship fell.
Darmok and Jalad, at Starbase.
Gosh, I love hanging out on the space-nerd subreddits.
me, participating in st nerdery
So when i go to starbase again for IFT-5 there's going to be a second tower there already 😂
At the very least, some of it..
Sold 👨🏾⚖️
Wow didn’t realize the base was already in place!!!
Nice. SpaceX does not fuck about.
And if they do, they are quick about it.
man, what fertilizers spaceX is using, it's sprouting fast!
The soul of SN15
… and the ghost of SN11 RIP.
Has production of OLM 2 started along with the 2nd tower?
They are at least drilling piles for the base.
They are superfast in building the launch infrastructure nowadays. And we thought they were fast when they were building the first tower... Lots of progress was being made in the last couple of days
Yay you!!!
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
Fewer Letters | More Letters |
---|---|
NSF | NasaSpaceFlight forum |
National Science Foundation | |
OLM | Orbital Launch Mount |
QD | Quick-Disconnect |
SN | (Raptor/Starship) Serial Number |
Jargon | Definition |
---|---|
Raptor | Methane-fueled rocket engine under development by SpaceX |
NOTE: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
Decronym is a community product of r/SpaceX, implemented by request
4 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 25 acronyms.
[Thread #12920 for this sub, first seen 14th Jun 2024, 06:07]
[FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]
Just to confirm, the following are all still uncertain, right?
Tower 2 will be completed by IFT-5.
Tower 2 will (at least initially) be a catch-only tower.
IFT-5 will attempt a catch.
If there is a catch attempt on IFT-5, it will happen on Tower 2.
- is correct.
Sources?
Oops. I intended to type 3. is correct.
Edit: How weird. If I open my post to correct, it shows a different text. It shows 3. is correct as I intended.
That’s all within the realms of possibility, although I am not sure if the second tower will be ready in time for IFT5. We will have to keep an eye on it.
Lol, this is what i call a spaceport tycoon
Humm:
That might make a good name for a new Board Game…
Just an idea…
First rule of g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ private spending, why build one tower when you can build two for twice the price.
They still want an American to go, doctor. Wanna take a ride?
How long did it take the build the tower at 39A?
I feel like Elon is just executing a civilization RPG IRL.
How do you get cool flair?
Will tower 2 have that dog leg in the support columns? IIRC that was a last minute change on tower 1 to make it taller.
I have a strong suspicion that there is going to be another three such legs coming ;)
1 missing reply