$12,000 was the average starter home price in 1950. The average starter home being less than 1000 sq ft. At the same time period when your annual income was $3,300.
Just to be clear — one inflation calculator puts that $12,000 in 1950s dollars at close to $160,000 today. A lot cheaper than the average home today (just not a ludicrous as $12,000 makes it seem).
I just bought a place for 160k and it’s a genuine dumper but it’s MINE ALL MINE and I will get it up to snuff
Cries in Bay Area California
Oh I had to move across the country and start with nothing. You can do that too.
Congratulations 🎉
Thank youuu!! Today ima go buy a bed 🥳
Hell yeah big dog. Hope nothing but the best. make your fixer upper in to your mini mansion dream home.
My bad didn't read your pronouns
Awe that’s a classy move, thank you. (My pic is in cosplay for Dwight Schrute and I nail it)
It’s also worth considering that the real estate landscape was very different. Places like LA and Silicon Valley were full of cheap houses, and in more rural places it was more popular to build than buy.
Yeah that post WWII economy really helped build and sell a lot of homes.
The house I bought in 2020 is 2000 square feet, on a 1/4 acre, new construction and would include a TON of amenities that you simply would not find in a 1950s starter home, such as central HVAC, energy efficiency that would be akin to sorcery by comparisons to their standards, and a host of other things.
I paid $194K, so, really, not that far off, comparatively.
I also got the loan at 2.5 percent with 10 percent down.
Of course, I'm not in a market like a lot of the country where 800 sq ft bread and butter (2/1 or 2/2) homes are running $650K
I bought a house in 2015 for around $170,000 in a nice area of North Carolina. It was 1,500 square ft on a nice plot of land in a wooded area. I bought it with a 0 down loan through a local credit union at 3.25 percent. Not that far off.
Unfortunately that market is gone too. Check the current value of that house. I bet it's double.
The value of mine I got 3 years ago went up 35k
And in 10 years, same thing. Every home (in a growing city) today is a bargain.
"LAUGHS IN SOUTH FLORIDIAN"
The problem is that there are no more starter homes. We looked for a year and a half in our area and they don't exist.
I think what you meant to convey is that there aren't any (or many) stater homes in your market.
My area is swimming with them. I have (after a very brief search) 586 properties of varying desirability and all under (most well under) $200k in different areas of my city. If only half of those are even worth considering, that's still a lot of properties for our population size.
Hell, I'm looking at a nice 4/2 1861sqft home built in 1970 for $155K It's no beauty queen, but it'll be a nice place to start for someone at less than 1300 a month with 10 percent down.
Exactly. People expect to find a decent size newish home for $190K in a HCOL area with all the amenities/shopping/parks/work within a walking distance. Those days are long gone.
That’s a down payment these days
What’s that house worth now?
212k as of last month. We had a lot of flips in the neighborhood as the area I bought in is growing pretty rapidly, so the comps are driving up the values.
Also, I think a lot of people bought just before the pandemic hit and were ousted when they lost jobs or got hours cut due to the lockdowns. Which is unfortunate in a lot of ways.
Nice stealie!
Rubbing
Salt
On the
Wounds
What stung the most was 2.5%
Add to that about half the increase will be code requirements and other improvements. You’re not allowed to live in 1950s code homes.
A better follow up question to all of these types of videos should be, 'How hard was it for you to afford your first home?'
$12000 in 1950, mean nothing to me, eve if I know the difference due to inflation, average income etc.
Asking how hard it was to afford it gives a much better idea of people's finances back then, because they understand the context of the burden home ownership put on them when combined with all of their other bills.
Someone might claim they were able to save for a house in 2 months and paid it off early, but if you find out that they were a dual income situation with no kids and got their car for free, it's hits different.
How many new houses now days are under 1100 sq ft?
People were happy to live with less back then.
at close to $160,000
Pretty sure you can find a 1000 square foot home for that price.
On the one hand, the expensive houses you mentioned are close to public transportation, parks, hospitals, these needs can be met. You should also take into consideration its proximity to cultural and artistic activities. It cannot even come close to what the cities of 1950 and today's cities can provide. You can find a house for these prices when you get a little further from the city.
You can still buy a $160k small 1bth home that's not insulated, has no internet, is built without any construction codes, and is far from work, just like in 1950.
I bought a 1500 sq ft condo in Chicago in 2015 for $170k…
Just to add some perspective: Let’s say she bought her first home in 1960 — $12k in 1960 would be the equivalent of $125,000 in 2024.
Still super cheap, but it’s important to adjust for inflation when talking about prices in the past.
It is. This should definitely be added in these videos or at least by whoever shares. It gives a much more real idea of the reality. Which still sucks. But more accurate for comparison and understanding.
It’s also not the same house. A 1950’s house is far more basic, and cheaper to build, than a modern house.
I make decent money, not great but alright, say 25% above my cities average annual income. I live in a 650 square foot appartement, which I rent, and which would cost just over 13x my income if I wanted to buy.
In 2016 the same apartment would be maybe 6.5x my income.
Feels unsustainable.
And the interest rate was probably 13%.
1950 was ~4%
Good catch! You are correct.
I’m hopefully never buying a house again… but I still dread seeing the +10% again. Hope we figure out how not to do that
Well the mortgage rates are set by the Fed. They have increased the rates to slow down markets. People feel like they're housing has gotten expensive when the reality is it's a combination of low supply as well as our money is just simply worth a whole lot less than it was just a few years ago.
Unnecessary explanation, but your use of the word “feel” minimizes the actual manipulation of cost & standard of living.
I still dread seeing the +10% again. Hope we figure out how not to do that
This line made me think you didn't know how mortgage rates are set. We can lower the rate by choice but it's a matter of if the country can afford to actually do that or not.
In the 50s the average rates were around 4-5 percent. About on par with today's rates, if not a bit lower.
The one thing I never see get mentioned is, in 1950 our economy (talking about the US) was a hella lot more diversified. We had plethra of white and blue collar jobs and these jobs were spread throughout the country. Now, with a lot of manufacturing being moved overseas and white collar jobs being more predominant, people are moving to the same cites. Demand has far outstripped supply.
In 1950’s Detroit, probably get that house for 12k. In 2024 that same house is probably still worth 12k because their are no jobs there
Yea but what’s that house worth now? My parents first house was 38k in the 80s for a brand new build. Last time I looked at Zillow their old house sold for over 400k. In a state where the median income is less than 50k.
So buy a house in like 3 and half years completely paid off. Sounds nice.
Even if we're terrible with money or had a bunch of kids that's totally do able in less then 10 years
1000sq. You mean your half a kid?
I'm pretty sure in the 50s they just packed then in there like sardines
Yup! 2 of my aunts (2 of 6 kids) were sharing the tiniest room. I still don’t know how because by the time I was around they were already adults and out of there but even one bed barely fit. This was normal back then. People didn’t bat an eye. Now here I am feeling guilty that my boys 15 and 12 share a smallish room. I wish I could give them a room each. But moving isn’t a possibility. Houses are insane. A bigger house than mine would be at least one million in most places. So this is how it’ll be until they move out.
I don’t want perspective I want my delusional belief that you could buy a house with 6 weeks pay!
Still more affordable than today
And how much did the average person make in 1950? Records show the average family made $3,300. Many people today make that in a week, I sure don't but many do. Also general living expenses were different, they didn't pay for cell phone plans, TV subscriptions and the dozens of other subscriptional payments many today feel that's required have to haves. Ultimately the main change since 1950 is the value of a dollar gradually decreases but a lot of other things within the govt, foreign diplomacy and society has changed as well.
so 4 years of income vs 10 years now
That’s only a 4x multiple of average house to average income. What’s it nowadays? 10x to 20x+?
So work for 4 years and have a house fully paid for, maybe 5 or 6 to account for living expenses. That sounds fantastic sign me up.
I would be insanely happy to find a house going for only 4x my annual income...
My grandfather purchased a half acre and had a home build in 1955. A 2,500 sq foot 5 bed room, 3 bath, with attached two car garage. The land cost him 5,000 and the builder charged him a little over 5,000. He owned his own business and was making good money. My parents put 100,000 into it then sold the house in 2021 for 700,000.
Make it make sense.
A home for 4 times your annual earnings vs. . ..
Annual household income.
I wish I could afford a house that’s four times my income, let alone mine and my wife’s combined… All the other stuff got so expensive. Like… taxes.
Yup. Back then, $12.000 was like 10 years of salary.
This reply got buried so I'm going to put this up here:
The perception has changed over time. When the hell did people start thinking EVERYONE was always able to buy a house?
Having a steady job, getting married, buying a house and having 2.3 kids was called "The American Dream" for a reason. People dreamt about it, but NOT everyone achieved it.
So, let's start with the basics of the American Dream. 2 people with steady professional careers. You could be a teller at a bank, welder, carpenter, nurse, a plumber, mechanic, IT geek. $20/hr or more
That's $41,600 $3,466.67 monthly
X 2 for a 2 income family. 82k/ year or 6.9k monthly.
Your housing cost should be 1/3 of your income $2072/month
For every 100,000 borrowed, your mortgage will be about 1000/month on a 30 yr fixed.
So, with a commute, just about anywhere in the US, you can find a home for 200k or $2000/mo.
Is it a McMansion? No, but will that buy you a solid starter home at the age of 27? Absolutely. A little sweat and effort, you can have a really nice home.
No you can't go out to eat 5 days a week and you might have to give up your Starbucks rewards card and make a pot o joe at home.
But ... Hey, it's basic economics. You should have learned this in high school, much less in college.
Ohh ...nothing in your area, do what our parents and grandparents did. Move to where better jobs or better opportunities are.
Stop feeling and start thinking
Sacramento CA: https://www.trulia.com/home/3624-natoma-way-sacramento-ca-95838-26059890
Springfield MI: https://www.trulia.com/home/10-springfield-dr-springfield-mi-49037-74671158
Hershey PA: https://www.trulia.com/home/49-sylvania-rd-hershey-pa-17033-86422360
Atlanta GA: https://www.trulia.com/home/1756-harbin-rd-sw-atlanta-ga-30311-35866823
That is still better than today
26K in 1978. Payment was $215/month.
Thought I was getting bent over the barrel.
$124k inflation adjusted. That would be an absolute steal today.
$99k in 1999. It was equal to our combined annual salary. 3 years later, listed it for 300k. While I appreciate the profit, I realize how fucked up that is. Can only imagine what that place goes for now.
I payed 50k for my first house when I was 23. Sold it and bought my second one for 27k
I’m tired boss
THATS TOO DAMN BAD, KEEP DIGGING
This was like 10 years ago
Just wait until 2090 when this video will be in lifelike hologram and the interviewee will be saying their first home cost $500k.
"My God, that's like a weeks salary! You could barely buy a carrot with that these days."
I wonder if the US will just wake up one day and reset the value of everything back by one digit. Every single transaction and balance loses the last digit. China definitely can do that with how it controls the money. For cash all you have to do is invalidate the old design and exchange it for a tenth of new money.
My parents bought their first house in 1997 for 98k, at the time they only had my dad's income which was like 40k I think.....I was 7 years old and they had it paid off by the I finished high school at 18...so yeah.
People that film themselves crying need to go away
And what was she getting paid in 1950 also
People have to understand that the raise in housing prices is not because of inflation or cost of living. It's a combination of direct investment from venture capitalists in housing market over the years and bankruptcy of small time contractors during 2008 recession.
So, this is a man-made crisis, it's not like US is lack of land or resources to supply housing demand. Think about it, how many new houses have been built in last 10 years? How many you have seen being built at where you live.
Inflation definitely is a huge factor dude. Housing prices went up 40% in the last 4 years.
You just answered my reasoning too, US had an approximately 8% inflation in last 5 years, so, if the housing prices has increased by 40%, the remaining 32% is coming from lack of supply and increase in demand. 🤷
We had 8% inflation in one single year buddy.
12k in the 1950s is 160k today, which is a steal for any built house now.
In some markets yeah.
But you didn't have 8% inflation for 4 years straight.
No but it is cumulative... And because there has been no recession we have not had any deflation. We have only had disinflation (slowing of the rate of inflation).
there are a lot more resources, engineering and technology in homes these days. lots more skilled trades are involved. no one is buying a sears home kit anymore and building the house themselves.
building codes often exist for a reason. nimbys exasperate the situation.
you arent wrong. but its only part of the story
I wish I would have read this before I replied as you said essentially the same thing I did. On a recent episode of “This Old House” they showed the state of the art insulation for a modern renovation which included breaking apart the old slab, spraying foam before pouring concrete, making a sub floor out of joists with several inches of rigid foam between them before they put more rigid foam and a several layers of insulating subfloor. I have to imagine this effort and skill costs slightly more than backing up a truck and dumping a foot of concrete.
federal reserve exists to inflate asset prices and protect US hegemony, not benefit the people
Where i live, everywhere I look, a new house is being built. They're fucking everywhere. These pricks are buying one property, splitting it, and building two homes at the same time. It helps keep the cost lower. Are they gonna list it lower? No they're fucking not. They're gonna list them at $850k each for a 1600 Sq ft house.
User deleted comment
1mo
People forget, 12k was still a lot this time
Depending on if it was 50s, 60s, or 70s somewhere between 100-150k if you account for inflation.
1979 3 bed 1 bath $28000. Income was about $12000 from memory. We had 2 nice cars. Self employed both working at the business. 3 kids born there. Sold 5 yrs later$43000. Don't recall life being hard.
My grandparents paid $8000 in about 1950 for a 3br 1bath and a basement
And what was their income?
He was a Nunya and she was a Bizness.
10 years later the same.house cost 1.2 mill $
Now ask her how much she made per hour.
Yea but she was making .10 cents an hour.
User deleted comment
1mo
Assuming that she bought the house say 60 years ago, that’s 1964.
$12K in 1964 is worth $120k in today’s dollars. So she bought her first house for $120K (in today’s dollars) which was possible for folks today as well, up until around 2020, before the housing bubble.
You probably can still find a small house for $120k say in Mississippi today.
Not sure why people are acting like this is some crazy shit.
An example here: https://redf.in/uIfU5q
Ya the thing is she probably bought it in a nice area where homes are probably worth 700k now lol.
You can still buy houses for 12k today. Look at Detroit.
True story: when my mom told me, her and my dad bought their first house (1,600 Sq ft) for $34k in 1974, and the down payment was $5k; and literally paid with rolls of .50 cent and $1 dollar coins they saved over 4 years, while working at the liquor store, I was depressed for a month.
I swear everytime I look into basically "what went wrong", the turning point is ALWAYS something that happened between 1982-1986.
The Holy Regan Empire fucked up literally EVERYTHING. Whatever fucking issue facing the average American today can be traced back to that admin.
Have to use the inflation calculator for all this because $12,000 in the 50’s or 60’s is about $120k or $130k and obviously that’s low enough to make us cry but at least puts it into more of a true prospective.
I really lucked out in 2014 getting a house for $295k just before things went nuts. Knowing what I know now I would’ve bought a bigger house but talk about 1st World Problems…….
I have a 70 year old friend in Real Estate who is confident the Government will have to step in at some point and make houses affordable again to prevent us from rioting and brining the guillotines back out.
My parents paid 5000, on a loan from a bank, house and half acre. I paid 24000 for a new house 3 bdrm 2 bth on quarter acre. 12 years later I bought a 2200 sq ft house in a city of 20,000 on a lot with a 2 car garage with a mil house for 50,000, 7 years later I sold it for 98, 000 and bought a house in the country with a view for 120,000. Then I gave the whole Shebang to my wife in divorce.
Get rekt Gen Z haha just get rekt
Line must go up (and future generations can foot the bill/debt).
That's $125,807.84
This is stupid, ask her what she made at the time.
She laughed like she knows how tossed it is now
Now ask their salary back then. One bloke I was chatting to, who was in his 80s, told me his first house cost £11,000, he and his wife’s salaries combined was £7,000 a year, £6,000 of it was his alone.
Yeah… back when making 50 cents an hour was a good paying job.
It’s not the amount of the house, what matters is the price of the house in comparison to their annual income.
At their age, the man likely worked, the wife did not, and he may have made about $10,000 a year, at the upper limit.
So their first house cost just about a single year’s wages. (This was exactly the situation with my grandparents.)
There would be no housing problem now if the average American annual wage was about $500,000.
so much American prosperity pissed away not by boomers, but the federal reserve
That is the equivalent of 150k relative to today.
Kids in this generation don't want to work for anything. She paid 12,000 and she probably paid cash from her savings from work. My parents bought a home because they worked hard. I have a savings so I can purchase a home. Kids these days want everything handed to them and nieve they just deserve things. They have no work ethic "waaahh I can't afford anything on minimum wage how am I supposed to support myself????? cried into avocado toast' get a better job or go to school so you can get a better job youpaf of bread. Or don't, I don't give a fuck
Now ask her what the interest rate was.
It was probably about 900 sq feet and she probably made about 2500 a year. Adjusted for inflation and sq footage, I don't think homes are that much more expensive today. The problem today is that small homes are not being built.
We also make, on average, 7 times the annual salary of back then. Houses cost more because the material to make them costs more. If a house costs $100,000 to build, they aren’t going to sell it for $12,000. Don’t get me wrong, the housing market sucks. It’s the greed of the people selling the house, but everyone wants their share. You’ve got to pay lawyers, builders, the city, the state, utilities contractors, the original builder and owners of the property, etc etc etc… I can still find homes around me for $150k. You may have to settle. No one gives you a mansion.
We all crying with you fam. We ain't ever gonna own shit😭
EVER
That titan is going to need a bigger house also, hard life out here.
Yes but $12,000 is $12bn in today's money
Be happy for them and angry at investment groups and venture capitalists. That’s where the blame actually lies
It’s natural for young people to feel like houses are overpriced and dwell on the fact that their parents or grandparents paid so much less. I know I felt that way when I bought my first house 20 years ago near the top of the market, but that’s the only reason it makes a house worth buying. If you bought a house, then 30 years later it was worth the same amount, that would be a horrible investment, especially when you factor in maintenance and interest.
Is the tear because you don’t understand inflation?
This post is intellectually dishonest… people made less, things cost less….
….and how much did a movie cost??
10¢
What was your salary then??
$2,000 a year.
🤔 So it would take six years of annual salary to afford a home.
Right, so stop being an internet influencer and get a real job that pays, oh, I don’t know…. $80,000 a year and get busy.
Average Americans income is 35k per year, I'd kill for that pay, which is why I'm in college, 20k per year, for four years because you can't get that type of job without college.
Yearly income in 1960 was around $5,000.
in 1970 it was $10,000. Houses are ridiculous right now but it isn’t to far off what these people paid back in the day.
The number mentioned (12,000) is 3/8 modern average house price (~400k) this isn't inflation.
Stop crying, they probably made $50 a week back then
So to buy a $1mil house today and have the same proportions as a $12k house on a wage of $50 a week, a person would need to earn over $4k a week.
Leaving the Gold standard killed America!
Meanwhile ive been looking in the eastern US and they are trying to sell 1200sqft starter homes at 250k - 300k ... what a time to be alive.
My husband and I lucked out big time. I'm 37. At 18 and 19 my husband and I purchased a house from a guy in our small town. Renters had trashed it. We paid $24k in 2005. Both of us were working at McDonald's and could pay all the bills. Those were the days.
We know why the long face.
And young people are lazy.
I'm 20 paying 20k a year of money I don't have for college so I can graduate with 60k of debt and start a job with a degree requirement for 50k. To eventually be able to afford a house for 400k. Have some empathy and pull up an inflation calculator, we aren't lazy, we've given up hope. So we bide our time till the boomers die and leave their money to us so we can have a studio apartment for 2,000 a month.
Inflation: *exists*
First house $437k 6.75% in 2007 not too far off prices today.
& heating oil was ,,,,, twelve cents a gallon
That would be about 40000 today. Still a ridiculous amount, but with over inflation of housing market by industry... Yeah it still sucks.
Give it 50 years.
Fuck.
only way you guys buying home if your parents had one and leave it to you in their will !
My house...cost approx 43 TIMES this lady's house...🙄
And now it’s worth 100 times more than that
Inflation is wild
What's that adjusted for inflation?
In between 100-150 k, a steal by today's standards. 1/4 to 3/8 national average.
My parents’ first house was $18,000 in 1962. 3-bedroom ranch, 1/4 acre. (not new construction). My mom’s brand new 1962 VW Beetle was $1600.
My parents first house was $9k mortgage was $90/m my mom was a housewife and my father made $5/hr
Shit IS sad.
My grandparent's home ran for 8500 in 1952. A super simple home with at the time, 2 bedrooms 1 bath, and a kitchen that connects to the dining room. My grandpa added on to the home which is what it is now. It's now valued at 210k. Blows my mind.
I bought a 5yr old house 3 years ago in Southern Louisiana for just under 290k. Today it's worth 340k. It's not a very big home, but in a decent area. I haven't made any major upgrades. I don't know much about the housing market, but to think that I have 50k of an increase in value in just 3 years without doing anything tells me that the housing market is insane.
Man fuck this shit, really. It feels so overwhelming to be young. Even if I work my ass off in a decent work, am never gonna be able to actually own/build my own fucking house in this world.
Boomers will be like “yea just save the money, don’t buy the newest iphone and drugs/alcohol” but those are the only thing my generation can afford as decent human beings.
I paid 39,500 for my first house in 2009, but it was a real piece of shit and in a bad neighborhood. Perfect for me and my punk friends. A wife and baby later, I had to upgrade. Still wish I’d kept it for a rental though.
Ah yes, before giant funds realized being the world’s largest robber baron was the optimal investment.
I once had a boomer tell me the reason young people can't afford houses is because "we're all building mansions now". And how he grew up in a small house.
Our land was about $470,000 (800 square meters), the house itself was about $180,000 in materials and build costs.
It's ok, suffering is good for the economy and someone else's bank account.
I bought a house for $16,000 5 years ago in downtown San Antonio. It's a 100-year-old shotgun style studio looking thing but it's awesome and I love it. I still find ranches and cool shit in West Virginia. There's some good options even today if you're willing to move somewhere new.
I’m 33. My first house was $7,500.
My first house was $21,000 in 1985. I bought it at a real estate auction. Sold it for $45,000, bought a different one for $47,000, sold it for $90,000, sold it for $145,000, bought one for $165,000, sold it for $210,000 sold it for $300,000, bought one for $400,000 still in it and it's been 15 years now and my interest rate is 2.75 percent. I'm almost done paying it off.
What is crazy is we have the cheapest housing of any modern industrialized country. As bad as it is here, it's much worse in much of the world in terms of housing cost.
My parents paid 35k for a nice house in the 80s. Shit is fucked.
My folks bought their first home in 1969 also. 1500 sf for 45k. 12k was likely a trailer. So dont get so excited.
160k today buys a 2000 sf home in a small midwest town. You dont have to live in a big city. Small town life is def happier
i saw the bill of sale for when my grandpa bought his house in 1943. $3400. that same house now sells for 60k. no updates since the 50s except for what absolutely needed repaired.
How much was your first pay cheque (
Can you imagine a buncha millennials buying up property worth 12k each??? We’d have a ton of culdesacs with our friends and family lol
A person could say that and could’ve still been living in their car, though. Think about how much a GOOD motor home would cost back then.
Yes and?
Annual salary was probably a quarter of that, and coupled with basic living standards and high mortality, it’s better to be alive now than then. But hey, much better to have your own home than all of the instant gratification and access to EVERYTHING at a fraction of the price it used to cost, right?
People are dumb 🤦♂️
Would you have had $12,000 back then?
She likely didn't pay anything, technically. A wife's income or even if a wife had an income was not considered before the 70's. Once they started counting women's income, house prices began to rise faster than ever before. Not that they shouldn't count a spouse's income, just something I learned Recently.
People dont you understand anyone can buy a house today???? That old lady bought her house when males were in the work force…
If you have a decent job and save up you can purchase a home. Or buy a fixer upper
I found a dream job that I got hired for…2 hours away from my rental. I pay 2600 dollars for a townhouse.
I am trying to relocate so I don’t have to commute 4 hour a day.
I can’t find anything to rent that is worth the price by far, forget about buying.
I am staying at a hotel during the week and it is cheaper than renting right now.
440k... in 2023.. APRs were not what they were in 2019. To that I say.. fbj
Do worry about me I will just be in debt for 30 years
Back in 1746
That’s what I paid for my house. $11,000 down
They were making 20 cents an hour in 1950
Penis
I real questions are, how much was your first home AND what was your annual wages at that time. The ratio can give people and understanding to today's situation when it comes to how much a home costs now when compared to one's income.
$116k in Meridian, Idaho, 10 years ago. Now worth $500k. 😎
Also take into account that 12k house grandma bought had no central air, maybe had a natural gas or oil heat system, single pane windows that leaked, and she lived in an area that probably wasn't that populated. So while it may be a great area today back then it was probably freshly rezoned farmland.
This is making me feel an irrational sense of entitled rage and jealousy. (I know it's like 120,000 today but point still stands)
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