How Did Michael Dukakis Lose After Taking This Super Hardcore Photo?
DiscussionTo be completely honest, while the helmet does him no favors, I think it’s having his name tag on his helmet that gives it the ultimate goofy look. It just looks stupid. It’s already a staged event but it might as well look legit otherwise it just empathizes the “poser” vibe.
The name tag AND the tie. Lose both of those and it wouldn't be half as bad.
I had the privilege of serving as a M1 tanker for many years. Never, I repeat never did I buckle my chin strap. Whomever told him to buckle the chinstrap should have lost their job
Just curious, what's the reasoning for leaving it unbuckled?
Coolness factor
You lose presidential elections
Because it doesn't feel great having a strap under your chin, and it pisses off the always-pretty-looking infantry types (esp ex Airborne) who have had it beat into their head that they'll die if it's ever unbuckled.
The "Rule of Cool"
In WW2 and Vietnam the helmets were much heavier and soldiers were afraid a near miss from artillery or other explosion would force a buckled helmet back and snap their neck. Whether or not that’s true idk but helmets are much lighter now so I imagine it’s mostly just to look cool
It's not and is a case of survivorship bias
There is no good reason. Besides being more likely to catch on things, it reduces the dB effectiveness of the built in hearing protection and allows the ballistic shell to move around too much, which can become a hazard to other crew members in the case of an IED strike.
This is from a time when the crews were showing off against the Soviets at the Fulda Gap with perfectly painted rigs and everything in perfect order. Once we went to combat with M1’s and M2’s (I’ve deployed with M2’s) all that went out the window and we were concerned with actual combat issues, not pomp.
The same reason he could only be a tanker and not anything that required having enough braincells to rub together to start a fire.
He literally looks like a kid who’s going to Summer Camp whose mom labeled his clothes so he wouldn’t lose them. That image isn’t helped by him being the shortest party nominee of the television era, making him look even more like a kid.
You just reminded me of the debate skit on SNL where Jon Lovitz played Dukakis- he had some type of electrical lift under his podium to make him taller, and he had trouble adjusting it properly. 😎
He actually did have a raised podium so he would be closer in height to Bush, originally he was going to step onto it but it was too noticeable he was taking a stair so his campaign built a ramp up to the podium so you couldn’t notice it.
Wow- I never knew this. Thanks.
Or if someone let Mr. Bean command a tank
The kid usually sitting in that hatch (PFC or SPC, loader) is probably gonna look pretty goofy anyways....
But he's going to be wearing CVCs and a t shirt, not a fatigue jacket awkwardly thrown on over a lawyer's suit...
Also nobody's beating Reagan's VP in 88... Nobody.....
Dukakis was sunk by his poor debate performance. He gave the impression he was soft on crime already and his debate performance did nothing to convince people otherwise.
I’d argue it was more just how the debaters treated him than his performance itself. I mean he literally got asked what stance he would take if his wife were raped and murdered on television. He took the consistent stance of saying he wouldn’t support the death penalty even then and that was a major blow. Even if he said yes, that wouldn’t have been a good answer either as he’d be attacked as a hypocrite. One of the main campaign attacks was Willie Horton
It’s a little bit of both, that question is so far out of bounds, yet him giving a cold answer and not showing much emotion didn’t come off well. That wasn’t the time to dive into the policy and act logical.
I forget where I heard it (maybe The West Wing in an episode with a parallel situation) but their solution was to have basically said, "Yes obviously I would want the man dead, and to suffer cruel and unusual punishment. But that's why it wouldn't be up to me. We have a justice system for a reason, and the rule of law is what makes this country safe."
Something like that, a human answer that also maintains his position, would have been great.
That would be the best in my opinion, but it was just wholly unexpected so he had to make an answer on the fly.
Very true. He made the best calculation he could think of. Ultimately an unfair debate question.
Or hell, switch it up and completely drop the “boring and dispassionate” label entirely.
”No, I wouldn’t want the state to execute him; I’d shoot the bastard myself.”
The thing was he was already asked that question like 100 times at that point. Yes he shouldn’t have done it but he just sighed and gave the bland answer.
I don’t think the answer is that bad or that bland compared to pretty much any political response to anything. Candidates don’t tend to show a lot of emotion because- the classical thinking goes-you want someone who’s “level headed in a crisis for that 2 AM phone call.” Recent debates within the last decade have strayed quite a bit from this, where shouting, screaming, interrupting is much more tolerated by the electorate.
That was the FIRST question of the debate.
I think the next question was for bush and it was something like, Would your administration continue Reagan’s policies?
Nobody on any side of the capital punishment issue would have faulted him for saying he’d be enraged to the point of wanting the rapist dead…regardless of what the policy platform said…
What he did radiated “how will you care about me if you don’t care about your wife?”
It’s not really fair…he was a decent guy, really, and trying to do the right thing…but a big part of leadership is knowing when to lead with your brain and when to lead with your heart. See both Clinton and Reagan for examples of presidents who understood that really, really well.
I mean your argument doesn’t hold up even over your own logic. Dukakis opposed the death penalty so when we plug the answers of yes or no into game theory it’s:
No - which has the consequences you mentioned where voted uncared for and unsafe
OR
Yes - Dukakis is a hypocrite and he only supports the death penalty when it applies to the people affected that personally know him.
You can say no one would care, but there was literally no winning answer to that question. Especially as it was wholly unexpected.
Another poster said it perfectly…paraphrasing …”I would be so enraged that I’d want to kill them with my bare hands…and that’s what we have an impartial justice system with checks and balances …”
It was not a lose-lose situation. He made it into one.
As I’ve said in response to that posters comment that would be the best response possible… to give a response akin to that would require more foresight that anyone could reasonably expect. Especially considering the much more tame standards of the time.
I’d argue there’s no people (presidential candidates especially) who are prepared to answer a question as far out of left field as that was.
In CNN’s “Race to the White House” series his campaign manager explicitly said they had gone over and extensively planned his response to the question, which was basically an emotional appeal to America that he understood the rage people feel at violent criminals.
When he walked off stage after the debate he walked up to her and said “I blew it.”
I haven’t seen that so I can’t speak for it. My first question would be if they’re referring to the death penalty specifically or referring to being asked about his wife being raped?
The reason I ask is because you can prepare for something, but if it comes to you packaged in an unexpected way then your preparations don’t do much good.
They anticipated it would be personally themed (ie wife, kids, family, etc,)
He was candidate for President. Successfully ran for Governor. Had a team of season advisors. The death penalty was a major campaign talking point.
IMO he had no real excuse to be unprepared.
I agree, he was consistent, but to the majority of the electorate that doesn’t pay attention, that was a poor answer. The idea of debates is to pick up voters on the fence. He didn’t do that and he was pounced on for that.
The prior debate, he was asked something along the line of "detractors say you lead by bureacracy, can you name a time when you lead by instinct and inspiration" and he shat the bed there
He literally cemented it when he straight faced answered the rape question instead of just appearing strong willed with conviction challanging the question itself
It was significant enough that West Wing revisited the question with a much better answer of yeah I’d want violence in response and that’s why we don’t let victims and their families be the judge or jury.
If youre soft on crime during a time of rampant crime, you may as well cover yourself in blood and pray to satan in front of a Christmas tree.
At that point it won’t hurt your chances any more
There were tons of attack ads about Willy Horton. He put a rapist that Dukakis paroled and he raped and I think killed. The articles didn’t say the perpetrator was black but showed a photo of a black man with a big Afro. Dukakis was absolutely clobbered on that.
Honestly, my take on the whole Willie Horton thing is that truth is an absolute defense for libel. Dukakis let violent prisoners go free on weekend passes and a woman got brutally raped for it. Whether or not Bush and Atwater were race-bating is irrelevant.
And Bush/Atwater didn’t even come up with it first. It was Dukakis’ own primary opponents that nailed him on it first.
If you think that’s bad, check out the Liz Truss tank picture. God, that woman has a gift for looking foolish.
Spent a month as PM and somehow was the only person since Churchill to serve under 2 monarchs.
A lettuce lasted longer than her
I guarantee a lettuce would give a better speech about pork prices
A lettuce would also know extreme tax cuts with significant borrowing and spending in an incredibly obvious inflationary period is also batshit stupid.
Liz Truss renewed my faith in the US political system. Because no matter what we do, Britain will find a way to fuck up worse.
how many Scaramuccis?
Liz ‘Future Hard Trivia Question’ Truss.
Queen Elizabeth II met Truss, and two days later, the Queen was like, "This is the worst disaster ever. I'm out."
It’s funny how time is on a perpetual loop it seems
Can the John Dean "I Have a Scream" speech, at least get an Honorable Mention?
That’s who I thought the person was in the pic and was about to say probably because of this
“yeeeeaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!”
I have a scream 😂😂😂
Thatcher did it way better
Thatcher absolutely nailed it.
I forgot all about her! What a fantastic embarrassment.
Just looked it up...good Lord that's atrocious!
She looks like an excited 7 year old
For me, it's the helmet. Someone else mentioned Liz Truss and for me it's the helmet with her too. The helmets look oversized for them. Even though it's probably the right size for them, they look like they're kids wearing dad's clothes. Someone mentioned Thatcher doing it better and while I think she still looks kinda silly, she wasn't wearing a helmet so it's just her with goggles in a tank, which looks better (i.e. not as bad)
I mean, not everyone has a giant dome like I do, where helmets always look tiny, but a lot of military headgear is oversized so it is rarely form fitting
Oh for sure, it's not their fault. I'd imagine you'd need a bulky helmet while driving a tank. But it makes them look weird and kinda silly.
The helmet has a radio inside it, as well as the “bulletproof” aspects.
It looks silly, and it was a bad choice looking back (I was only 4 years old when it happened, I don’t know what the idea or reasoning was)
I thought I heard from somewhere that a weakness of Dukakis was he was "soft" in general, and the stereotype of the "weak-knee'd" liberal. Riding in the tank, it was thought, would give an image of someone more tough.
her helmet was on 90 degrees wrong
Just the fact that his name is on his helmet is enough for the average person looking at this to get a feeling this photo op is fake as hell. And this guy actually WAS in the military, that’s what makes it even worse. They could have used real pictures of him during service instead of this.
What makes it worse is that he tried defending the photo by saying “Hey, I served in Korea”. Yes he did, as a radio operator stationed there years after the war had ended.
They could have used real pictures of him during service instead of this.
When you Google "Mike Dukakis military" you only get tank pictures and... this one, which is not particularly cool either.
I think he's just not a very cool looking dude.
Yeah it’s hard to make him look cool. He’s short, hairy, just socially awkward. Hearing he was a radio operator tracks exactly, as that’s one of the more nerdish positions in the army, as far as the image.
It is pretty tough to beat a popular incumbent (Bush was the current VP but not the President) I think Reagan Bush was already on the path to winning, anyway.
edit: guess I mixed up my Elections. Bush was seen as continuing the Reagan policies
Dukakis ran against Bush, not Reagan.
More like, Dukakis ran against Reagan's legacy.
Incumbent-ish, technically not incumbent but a continuation.
you are right-sorry
Dukakis was leading the polls until like October
Dukakis was way up early
No, by Labor Day, he was already down.
It was more his policies on prison furloughs. After a prisoner named Willie Horton, who was on furlough went on a crime spree, he received tons of bad press and the blame. Four years later, he may have had a better chance. Bush had the advantage of riding on Reagan's coat tails into office.
I believe no one could have beaten Bush.
The economy was humming. Crime was relatively stable (not on peoples mind.) no major foreign issues. Etc etc.
Off topic a little but-
Bush’s downfall was not taking Perot serious. Not the man but the point he was attempting to make.
Then after Clinton everyone ignored it. For a while.
His broken pledge of "Read my lips. No new taxes!" certainly didn't help.
True but in hindsight Clinton raised taxes even more and from the little pledged policy that did come out of Perot’s camp he would have too.
I think nobody was a fool at that time that we needed to raise federal income. The only way you can do that reliably is raise taxes, fees, tariffs etc.
You can raise income by your society rising through the economic ranks but that is unreliable at best. If it actually worked our revenue should be over flowing since the 80s even with half baked tax cuts that only benefit ten percent of the population.
I guess you could always “cut” services but let us be real once a program is in place it rarely ever goes away. It’s great talking points by some but even they don’t act fully on it.
I think Bush’s actual downfall is he just didn’t want to veer right. He was a very traditional politician. He believed in civility etc and a good portion of his base wanted a bigger slice. It was easy for them to sit out and wait. Again. The country was relatively stable economically and socially so they could do that with confidence there would be a next time.
Two years later the “Tea party” came into being and the rise of the evangelicals really started flexing. By the time W. ran the two firmly merged.
Yeah, I agree. I voted for Bush in 1992 and would have in 1988, but I was not registered yet. If Ross Perot hadn't run a third party, it's very possible we would have never had the Clintons in office. The way our electoral system works makes any third party very difficult. I never blamed him for breaking his pledge, and it isn't always possible to know beforehand that he would have to. The Bushes and Clintons were very civil with each other, and I miss the spirit of doing what's best for the country, not just yourself.
The Reagan sweatpants photo just went harder...
He looks so goofy.
There was definitely a lot of sneering at "Taxachusetts" and the NE in general, and it's no coincidence that the next election Dems ran two southern moderates and won. I'm not sure what the origin of the hatred of "Massachusetts Liberals" was, but it was a trope even before the '88 election.
That’s part of the reason, imo, Elizabeth Warren never got traction. In addition to the actual unlike ability feeling that you’re being scolded by a middle school librarian, her policies and the fact that she’s a college professor from Massachusetts kind of falls in line with the “Massachusetts Liberal” trope.
God, and her voice. Nails on chalkboard.
They really didn't fight back against the name calling because they were and still are sort of limp wristed when it comes to defending their convictions because they know they're dealing, by and large, with a body politic that is civically bankrupt, misinformed, and provincial.
Ah yes, because they despise the electorate, they're not good at democracy.
He was too short
There is some truth to that. Voters generally go for the taller of the candidates & candidates under 5’ 10” or so face real difficulties winning.
BEEEE-AAAACH
I don’t know, that is so money
The photo certainly didn’t help but it was far more the Massachusetts Felon Parole program that seriously kneecapped his campaign.
Lee Atwater shenanigans mainly
when we talk about destroying civility in politics, lee atwater needs to be discussed more. absolutely vile person and campaign manager
I mean at least he repented in the end, many don't
Nah fuck that guy, if you can’t do it while it matters no one gives a flying fuck.
What do you mean while it matters
While he was destroying lives and reputations. The racist piece of shit is gonna burn in hell and no amount of repenting can save his ass.
We went from Lee Atwater to Karl Rove to Steve Bannon/Roger Stone
Behind each of these faces, there are maybe 10 to 20 operatives that are up to shenanigans. I can't think of any names off the top of my head on the dem side that are up to misbehavior.
Sidney Blumenthal. Rat-fucker for the Clintons. He was the one who originally got the press to question Obama’s religion/birthplace
Let's not forget that Dukakis own campaign manager had to resign for dirty tricks (and then they brought him back when they go desperate).
Because there are none on the Dem side unless they're looking to take out specific primary opponents.
Mustn't forget the Watergate Crew.
Is Mr. Bean even eligible to be a US President?
The tie and name tag on a helmet makes him look like he's playing dressup.
Because it wasn't just about the tank. He fumbled responses to attacks on his foreign policy stances and couldn't properly defend his position on crime and death penalty, as well as ending pledges of allegiance in schools.
I knew a guy (who eventually wrote a very funny book called Clinton and Me) who worked on this. They all thought it was a great idea to toughen up dukakis’s image.
The power of group think.
He was trying way to hard and it backfired. What a stupid thing to do. Wearing a suit and tie underneath. That name tag on the helmet as if he has to identify himself. Pointing like he’s cool doing this. It’s a masterclass in not how to do a publicity stunt.
This picture is on the same level as the dean scream
Dukakis came to speak at an outdoor rally at Rutgers University. I was present for this event. At one point, the sun came out and Robert Redford, who was in the stage with other prominent supporters, stood up and took his jacket off. There was a reaction by the crowd, but sadly Dukakis was unaware of what was happening and reacted like the cheering was for him.
He’s like the democrat Ted Cruz
Well, I think MD is probably a decent person, and would be good to get to know. That Canadian dude, not so much.
When I was a kid and saw that I thought he looked like a kid playing soldier. Getting close to 40 years later I still think the same thing.
The problem for him was the old saying, “never try to wear a hat with more style than you have.” Or in this case, never wear a tank with more style than you.
He was probably destined to lose from the onset.
Maybe if he was more stoic the photo would've played better. But as it is it's just a middle aged guy pointing with a goofy smile
When you're trying to look hardcore while going up against a dude who as a 23 y.o. naval officer and pilot during WW2, was shot down by enemy fire, and nearly drowned in the south pacific - just concede whose demonstrated having bigger balls and pick another area to argue about.
He didn't have combat experience but Dukakis was also an Army veteran.
Because it’s not believable. He was already looking like a presidential poser in the debates. This just helped seal the deal. Also, don’t forget about the issue of his prisoner release. That was what really sunk him, if I recall correctly.
Because at the time it screamed "I'm desperate".
Reagan would have done it in a cowboy hat.
That’s why.
It was a different time. He looked out of place in the tank w the helmet on. John Kerry partially lost because he took an awkward photo in a haz mat suit. Howard Dean was doing well in the primaries until he let out a “yeeaargghh” at a rally.
As silly as it was, I honestly miss those days.
Dean came in third in Iowa before the scream.
Third after he was polling first. His campaign was already dead after that disappointment, the scream was merely the cherry on top.
Sad, but true. For some reason, he got into a feud with Dick Gephardt.
I was a Dean supporter. I still think he was the better candidate (over Kerry and Edwards).
Bush also looked at his watch during a debate. The horror!
How Did Michael Dukakis Lose After Taking This Super Hardcore Photo?
He went against lee altwater
Bingo! Lee Atwater is the answer. He ruined the chance for Dukakis to win.
Bingo! Lee Atwater is the answer. He ruined the chance for Dukakis to win.
To be fair Dukakis didn't help
Oh for sure. Atwater didn’t make him flub the kitty question at the debate, or some of the other stumbles he made.
Oh for sure. Atwater didn’t make him flub the kitty question at the debate, or some of the other stumbles he made.
Yep
But there’s no doubt Atwater changed his chances in some way.
But there’s no doubt Atwater changed his chances in some way.
Agreed
Atwater also didn’t make Dukakis furlough violent criminals from prison, one of whom went on to nearly kill a woman while raping her.
It had nothing to do with this. The idea that this had anything to do with his loss is just silly
The picture hurt him because his whole persona was that of an intellectual, so to see him like this feels like inauthentic pandering, and trying too hard to be liked. I get that you have to sell yourself on the campaign trail, and there's probably some good reason he's on that tank, but... sorry, the good reasons are all forgotten now, and he just looks out of his element
The reason was because a few days prior, Bush had a photo-op in an F-18. The difference is that Bush carried himself like the ex-fighter pilot that he was, while Dukakis looked like a kid playing dress up.
Seriously, someone should make a movie about Bush Sr. in WWII.
I remember when this happened.
If you can find the video with audio, you will hear lots of laughter. That's the media reporters.
How you gonna win if the media laughs at you?
People were a lot more sensitive to prospective presidential pictures back then.
His last name sounds like dookie and cock combined
He looks like Dark Helmet from Spaceballs
Because he looked like a dork instead of John Wayne.
He never stood a chance going against the family of Jeb!
Really.
Single worst campaign photo Ever.
His last name didn’t help.
Oh come on, maybe there is a small group of idiots who voted for Bush based on that, but that doesn't change the fact Dukakis lost in a landslide.
A lot of people actually liked the fact that Dukakis was a Greek immigrant who rose to the top, in contrast to Bush who was upper-class and extremely out of touch with the average American
Van Buren and Eisenhower don't sound American either, do they?
You have far too high of an opinion of the average US voter in the 80s.
I must have heard “excuse me for a moment, I have to go Dukakis” or some variation on that about a million times during that election. It was a pre-internet meme.
Oh yeah I thought you meant people voted against him because of his last name because it was "unamerican" (like Obama), not because it had that stupid joke connection
Probably because he looks like a poser
Dukakis tried to emulate Roki Vulovic but completely failed.
Kinda like this low effort post: it was easier for the media to make fun of how Dukakis looked that it was to talk about the differences between the two candidates and their platforms.
See the ad made by Lee Atwater...that really did him.on.
It’s a bit goofy, but I don’t care
Gringo who spoke spanish. But, was a yankee & not from the south.
Think that this picture entered his political career. Now we have people wearing diapers in support of a candidate
The American Electorate could see past bullshit more so back then than today! Dukakis debate performance was terrible, he was seen soft on crime as well! Bush sr Campaigned like a bulldog and obviously won!
Boy, do I have a story for you!
Beetle Baily doppelganger
Tried looking strong after the fact, and it backfired. He was not my choice for the Democratic Party, but no one stood out at the time.
I find it endearing but I wasn’t alive yet so
While in college I had a two minute conversation with him on the campaign trail. Can't say I was wowed.
Because he looks like a DOOFUS
Cardinal rule: never wear anything unusual on your head when campaigning for office. Thank God he did not win.
He forgot the "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner
I’ve seen goofier from former presidents.
At the time seemed like everyone thought he looked like a goofball. If you see the entire video it was not a good look. Too out of character.
He just looks goofy. He also opposed many military projects, moves, and wars. Driving around in a tank (untested tank mind you) gives the impression you love the military and will support it
If I could find it I'd post a pathetic picture of a president in a pilot suit with mission accomplished behind him. My God I disliked him so.
I suspect because he looked too goofy.
How could he not?
He lost because of 1) his wife's public battle with alcohol and 2) his complete lack of emotion. And 3) Willie Horton.
The root reason is the innate stupidity of voters who let something like a goofy picture sway them from voting from someone who might have been able to stop the trickledown economics and other regan shit before it became too entrenched. This led to the looting of America for the next 30 years by the oligarchs. Voting is mostly based on emotion not reason. "He's a guy you could have a beer with" also America's stupidest president and a total puppet, "He's a maverick", yeah, but that's because he is a criminal psychopath narccist
Willie Horton. That’s it. That’s the answer
This sounds silly but its true.
"Do you kiss cock? Dukakis does.".
I really think that had a lot to do with it because, ya know, people.
He lost because at a pivotal moment in the Presidential debates he was asked (and I’m paraphrasing here) If you’re wife was brutally raped/murdered would you seek the death penalty against the offender?
His answer was “No”
I believe the topic of debate was law enforcement/crime.
He should have said that an inappropriate and disrespectful thing to ask. They said his wife’s name then showed her on camera.
It’s perfectly appropriate. Saying his wife’s name and showing her on camera is nothing lol.
Running for POTUS, you’re going to get vetted at the highest level.
Should they have asked what his favorite color is instead? LOL.
Is there an r/presidentscirclejerk ?
Because he was a liberal D-Bag
He was running against Reagan. He never had a chance. Kinda like those guys that ran against Obama.
He ran against George Bush (Sr.) in 1988.
Reagan faced Carter in 1980 and Mondale in 1984.
He ran against Bush Sr in '88. Mondale ran against Reagan in '84.
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