Hard-sided bear cans required in all Forest land in the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit beginning January 1, 2024

This appears to be an expansion of the previous requirement for Desolation Wilderness.

Best I can tell, from just north of Carson Pass to about Alpine Meadows. (I can't really figure out exactly where the LTBMU border departs from the PCT at the north end.) Approximately 55 miles; between NOBO mile ~1079 through ~1134.

Learn to love your bear can!

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/ltbmu/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD1154225

SOUTH LAKE TAHOE, Calif., Nov. 30, 2023 – To help keep Tahoe bears wild, the USDA Forest Service Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit (LTBMU) has issued a new Forest Order that requires the proper storage of food and refuse (garbage) on all National Forest System lands in the Lake Tahoe Basin. The Forest Order takes effect on Jan. 1, 2024, and requires all food and garbage that is not personally attended to be stored in a container designed to prevent access by bears and other wildlife. The Forest Order also requires the use of bear canisters (hard-sided bear-proof containers) for overnight visitors to the Desolation Wilderness and wildlife-resistant dumpsters and food lockers (bear boxes) provided at National Forest campgrounds.

Bears are attracted to anything edible or scented and the improper storage and disposal of human food and garbage is a leading cause of human-bear conflicts in the Tahoe Basin. Bears that become accustomed to human food and garbage lose their natural fear of humans, which can lead to the injury of a person or euthanasia of the bear. Feeding bears and other wildlife is illegal and violations can result in citations from law enforcement officers.

“The new storage order allows hikers and day-use visitors to possess food or garbage provided they are within 100 feet of the items,” said Wildlife Biologist, Shay Zanetti. “Requiring proper food and garbage storage will help reduce the number of human-bear conflicts by preventing bears and other wildlife from accessing these items.”

View the Food and Refuse Storage Order on the LTBMU Forest Order webpage. Visit the following websites for helpful information and tips for keeping Tahoe bears wild: TahoeBears.org and BearWise.org.

in PacificCrestTrailby danceswithsteersNOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

95%

6mo

mschoee

6mo

As a north Lake Tahoe local this is extremely needed! Sure it’s a bummer to have to carry a bear can until truckee but I can say without a doubt the most habituated bears on the entire PCT are between Sonora pass and Truckee

ashalee

6mo

Local-ish person here. I agree this is needed. I’ve always carried a bear can in and around Deso. I’m out of shape, overweight, and have several physical issues due to my cancer and its treatment. But the extra bit of weight from the bear can ain’t gonna kill me, and it’s better for both me and the bears that I carry it. I’m 100% on board with this one.

aethrasher

6mo

Why does the community at large resist bear canisters so hard? Our packs are so much lighter than 20 years ago even with cans. Just carry the damn 2 lbs and preserve the experience for the next person that has to encounter that bear. Hell, that next person might be you!

Mandaishere

6mo

Exactly. With my BV475 and food (4 days worth) my pack weight last time out was 23 lbs. The BV was nowhere near full, and I like being able to store my cook set and little things in it to take up the space. I’m slowly working toward being ultralight, that 23 lbs also included an almost 4 lb tent. It’s next on my list to replace.

aethrasher

6mo

Wow! I average 25-30lbs fully loaded, base 14lbs. My sleep system is over 5lbs 😳

Mandaishere

6mo

That’s not a horrible base weight. Get your sleep system lighter and that will make a huge difference!

[deleted]

5mo

Thru hikers are total weight wienies at the end of the day and not without reason.

The real issue most people I know, including myself, have with bear cans is that they take up a lot of space in your pack and can throw off how things fit and force you into non-ideal ways to pack around it. For example, I usually pack my tent in my pack, but with a bear can I have to pack it on the outside in one of the water bottle holders. I just find it far harder to get a good weight distribution in a pack with a bear can. The cylinder shape is also non-ideal in your pack.

I mean, I'm a Californian so I'm used to the bear can and I'm not complaining about using one. But I'd be pretty pumped if an UrSack like design would be approved for the Sierra too.

And yes, I'm aware that you can empty out your bear can and keep it on top of your pack.

Also, the "just sleep with your food" part of the culture is pretty strong. I think people struggle with the idea that while they're okay with very low incident rates, the authorities are shooting for close to zero.

Upvotes_TikTok

NOBO 2016

5mo

I only can cut so many oz off my toothbrush handle.

jacobburns

6mo

I guess that’s the end of people doing Desolation Wilderness in a day without a bear can

Dan_85

NOBO 2017/2022

6mo

If I'm reading it right, this says that bear resistant food storage is required in all of LTBMU (this would include hanging and Ursacks), but canisters are only required in Desolation?

I mean, for PCT hikers it basically means carrying a canister the whole way from Tahoe to Truckee (and in all likelihood from Sonora Pass) because you're not gonna drop your canister at the point that you leave Desolation.

Either way, this feels like it was pretty inevitable and I wouldn't be surprised to see more areas on the PCT start requiring canisters, especially in WA. I guess carrying a canister from KMS to Truckee is now the new normal?

gehnrahl

6mo

especially in WA

Too many trash backpackers in washington are resulting in bear encounters. Last year I ran into two bears the same day that did not want to back down.

Dan_85

NOBO 2017/2022

6mo

As of last year, "proper food storage" is now required in all of Mt Baker-Snoqualmie NF, which covers several hundred miles of the PCT. This is basically a requirement to hang or carry an Ursack.

2023 was the first year it affected PCT hikers and I know for a fact that most thru hikers neither hung food or carried an Ursack as required. So give it a couple more years and canisters will likely be required for most of Washington. 🙄

DeputySean

www.TahoeHighRoute.com

6mo

Well to be fair, sleeping with your food is infinitely better than hanging your food.

Both are bad options, though.

I'd love to see most thruhikers at least carrying an Ursack.

Larch92

6mo

Agree. A certain celebrity hiker has inspired MANY to routinely sleep with their food though. Despite this celebrity's influence its been deemed not bear or human safe by authorities.

drwolffe

6mo

I sent my bear can to White pass this year and carried it to the border. I feel like I was one of the few and 99% of people just continued sleeping with their food like normal. Lots of SOBOs had bear cans, though. I guess they didn't have a chance to get into bad habits

gehnrahl

-5

6mo

Its inevitable. I've taken to bear spray when I hike, and pistol for when I sleep. Way too many trash people here/passing through here.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

6mo

Here are the two orders:

New (all LTBMU): https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd1153995.pdf

Former (Desolation only; and still in effect): https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd1043312.pdf

The specific word choices are the same. And they both cite the same code: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-36/section-261.58

I wouldn't bet that Ursacks and simple hanging would be permissible.

Dan_85

NOBO 2017/2022

6mo

The wording is interesting.

So, LTBMU-wide, food must be "stored in a container designed to prevent access by bears". This is quite ambiguous. I think everyone would agree that an Ursack is considered a "container designed to prevent access by bears", but is food in a stuff sack, hung appropriately high and far from a tree trunk considered one?

Whilst for Desolation, food must be "stored in a canister designed to prevent access by bears", which I think is pretty clear.

Also, I really wish the FS would write these orders using language that your everyday Joe understands. Or at least provide a plain English version alongside the legalese one. "Pursuant to order blah blah blah..." 🙄 Come on.

Igoos99

6mo

This is the one area I would definitely not use an ursack. There’s so many reports of bears defeating ursacks in that area.

Bears learn from other bears. In most areas, ursacks are probably fine because the bears don’t know how to defeat them. But in desolation and the greater Lake Tahoe area? Those bears do.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

6mo

I think you're trying to find nuance where there isn't any. This is the same kind of discussion I remember from last year when they implemented the order for Desolation.

I'm sure the USFS and LTBMU will clarify just like they did for Desolation. And I agree with you that it would be helpful if these orders provided specificity; something like, "approved for use in Yosemite backcountry".

Dan_85

NOBO 2017/2022

6mo

There is nuance though. The wording for the two orders is not the same. The LTBMU one refers to "containers", whilst the Desolation one refers to "canisters".

I don't believe I'm misinterpreting the rules. I think it's fairly clear both from the orders and the press release that "hard-sided bear proof canisters" are only required in Desolation, whereas other bear-proof containers (which are undefined but likely mean Ursacks and possibly hanging) are required everywhere else across LTBMU.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

6mo

Not to be flippant, but feel free to contact the LTBMU, check, and report back.

Dan_85

NOBO 2017/2022

6mo

I've emailed them. 😆 I'll update if/when I get a response, although I guess that may not be until after the weekend.

Dan_85

NOBO 2017/2022

5mo

I've had a reply from the LTBMU office:

Thank you for your email. According to our Wildlife Biologist, forest orders for the El Dorado National Forest 03-22-11 and the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit (LTBMU) 19-22-05 require that food and refuse be stored in a canister designed to prevent access by bears within Desolation Wilderness. Forest Order 19-23-04 requires the same thing throughout the LTBMU. Forest orders 19-22-05 and 19-23-04 overlap within Desolation Wilderness. Within all three of these orders the terms "container" and "canister" are used interchangeably and mean the same thing.

While hanging food was an acceptable practice in the past, in many locations, Tahoe bears have adapted and figured out how to access hanging food. Bear hangs are no longer a reliable practice to deter bears and other wildlife from accessing food within the LTBMU. The LTBMU does not endorse or oppose any particular brand of food storage container. The requirement is to use a container specifically designed to prevent access by bears.

In addition, 100 feet was utilized as a reasonable distance for a day user at a recreation site or on a trail to be from their belongings. Adding this exception allows for day use without having to have shared bear boxes at rec sites or requiring every visitors to have a container designed to prevent bear access. The exception also requires that the user be within direct line of sight of the food or refuse, so it very well could be less than 100 feet. Food should always be either in a bear proof container or physically possessed by a person.

I hope this helps.

It looks like u/danceswithsteers interpretation was right. Although I believe this reply is still a little ambiguous and not crystal clear, it sounds like they are wanting people to carry hard-sided bear canisters across the entirety of LTBMU, and not just within Desolation. However they have not, imo, been explicit in stating that. If that's their wish, they could avoid all confusion by consistently using the term "hard sided bear canisters" across both orders and their communications.

I think it's risky for them to flippantly use the terms "container" and "canister" interchangeably, particularly as they refuse to clearly define what either of those terms mean or provide examples of specific permitted food storage options. This will only hurt compliance with the rules.

I also specifically asked whether Ursacks were permitted outside of Desolation and they did not answer this question. Are we to take that to mean that they're not permitted? Again, I don't believe it's clear.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

5mo

Thanks for the follow-up and for doing the foot work to get it. I agree that it would be great if they'd, you know, pick a standard phrase and stick with it. It would save them and a lot of other people some headaches.

numbershikes

'17 nobo, '18 lash, '19 Trail Angel. OpenLongTrails.org

6mo

is food in a stuff sack, hung appropriately high and far from a tree trunk considered one?

If we want to be pedantic, I think the answer would be negative, because in this case the container (a stuff sack) is not intended to prevent bear access.

But if we're being realistic, we should recall that the folks who write these orders didn't go to law school. I'm not convinced it's worthwhile to try to parse the language too carefully when the same time could be used to seek clarification through official channels.

hikingmax

LT'02, AT'05, CA'09, OR'16, WA'19

6mo

What if we sharpie “NO BEARS ALLOWED” on the stuff sack. Then it’s just a really poorly designed bear proof container.

numbershikes

'17 nobo, '18 lash, '19 Trail Angel. OpenLongTrails.org

6mo

Finally!

It was completely ridiculous that there were no bear can regs through there.

Igoos99

6mo

Kinda sucks as a hiker but a good move for the bears. This area has consistently had the most reports of problem bears across the entire PCT.

theducker

6mo

Yeah as someone semi local to Tahoe I'm really surprised it took them this long

numbershikes

'17 nobo, '18 lash, '19 Trail Angel. OpenLongTrails.org

6mo

Best I can tell, from just north of Carson Pass to about Alpine Meadows. (I can't really figure out exactly where the LTBMU border departs from the PCT at the north end.) Approximately 55 miles; between NOBO mile ~1079 through ~1134.

I think you're right about the northern boundary.

Based on the PCTA.org map, zoomed in far enough for mile markers to appear and with the 'Ranger Disctrict Boundaries' and 'National Forest Administrative Boundaries' layers on (link), the trail is in both Tahoe NF and Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit (LTBMU) through PCT nobo mile 1,134. North of that, the trail is in Tahoe NF, but not in LTBMU. (Click to the right of mile 1133 to highlight LTBMU boundaries).

In practical terms, that means carrying the bear can up at least as far as Truckee.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

6mo

Thanks for the map link. Looking further into what also appears to me as the boundary for the LTBMU, there's a lot of intersections with that (apparent) boundary and the PCT itself.

Bears know nothing of managerial boundaries, though, and it'll still be wise to carry a bear can all the way through the area.

deadflashlights

6mo

Damn that effectively means that bear cans are required throughout the entirety of the Tahoe Rim Trail now

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

6mo

That's exactly what it means.

truckee_mike

5mo

No it doesn't. Please stop spreading misinformation.

numbershikes

'17 nobo, '18 lash, '19 Trail Angel. OpenLongTrails.org

5mo

If that's the case, please provide maps to support your statement. Simply calling something "misinformation" doesn't help anyone.

Based on this map of the LTBMU and the USFS regions shown on the Public Lands layer on Caltopo, it looks to me like at least 95% or so of the TRT is in LTBMU+USFS land, which, according to the OP article, means that ~~bear cans~~ "[food containers] designed to prevent access by bears" will be required on essentially every mile.

truckee_mike

5mo

according to the OP article, means that bear cans will be required on essentially every mile.

No it doesnt, and the distinction about this is clearly made in OP's article. Hard-sided bear canisters are only required on the 20 miles of the TRT that passes through Desolation Wilderness. This has been the case since summer 2022. They are not required anywhere else on the TRT and that does not change with these new rules coming into play in January. The article posted by OP makes a clear distinction about this;

The Forest Order also requires the use of bear canisters (hard-sided bear-proof containers) for overnight visitors to the Desolation Wilderness

What is required everywhere else on the TRT (and indeed all FS land within LTBMU) after January is that you must now store your food in a "bear proof container". You have not previously been required to do this; it's been asked and suggested, but not required. Note that a container is not necessarily a hard-sided canister. You can use a hard-sided canister for if you want, but it is not required. It can be any other approved food storage method, likely including ursacks.

Dan_85 seems to be the only person here who has understood the regulations correctly. Hard sided canisters are not "required for the entirety of the TRT" now or after January 1. They are required in Desolation Wilderness only.

numbershikes

'17 nobo, '18 lash, '19 Trail Angel. OpenLongTrails.org

5mo

That's an awful lot of words to say "Ursacks work too."

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

5mo

Dan_85 seems to be the only person here who has understood the regulations correctly. Hard sided canisters are not "required for the entirety of the TRT" now or after January 1. They are required in Desolation Wilderness only.

As usual, there's some confusion about what actually is and isn't required. This typically happens every time food storage requirements are implemented. I believe it stems from inconsistent phrasing from various agencies. (See my other comments for examples.) There was even some question when Desolation implemented their requirements in 2022.

And it is true I've taken the order to mean Hard-sided canisters are required and I could be mistaken. (Again, see my other comments for why I have taken the order to mean this.)

I believe Dan_85 has written to the LTBMU for clarity and I'm still waiting to see a response from the LTBMU on a Facebook post about the new Order.

In the end, until the Forest clarifies, we're all just putting our own opinions on what's best into this. (And, frankly, I don't understand the resistance to a little extra weight and bulk in a backpack if it means bears don't need to get killed.)

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

5mo

I made a rough overlay of that map and the TRT. Red line is the TRT.

https://imgur.com/a/9v7xRuE

AnonymousPineapple5

6mo

Way more people are getting out these days, unfortunately so many just don’t even know that half the things they’re doing are wrong. I watched a video recently about how people in the outdoors are not being good stewards of the land or being safe because everyone is using Google and not mentors these days. Good practices are being missed that way. I think it had a point. I too have utilized the internet for things to learn but I grew up doing outdoors stuff, I had a baseline going in. I could see how people without that wouldn’t really know how to properly store food and why it’s important, leading to more encounters and requirements like this.

ExtensionSwing7

6mo

For someone who has never done the pct: can someone tell me in plain English where I have to start carrying a can and when I can stop?

Dan_85

NOBO 2017/2022

6mo

Where you have to carry one and what is the logistically simplest option are two very different things.

In short, for NOBO PCT thru hikers, the logistically simplest option is now to carry a bear canister from Kennedy Meadows South (mile 702) to Donner Pass/Truckee (mile 1159). Reverse this for SOBOs. Sure, there are some sections in this stretch where a canister is not required, but it's simply not practical to drop your canister for these sections and pick it up again later.

If you plan to camp outside of a developed campground in Lassen Volcanic NP (mile 1343-1363), you'll also need a bear canister. If you camp in North Cascades National Park (mile 2572-2592), you'll need to either carry a canister or hang your food.

ExtensionSwing7

6mo

Thank you. Exactly what I was asking for. ✌️🙏

numbershikes

'17 nobo, '18 lash, '19 Trail Angel. OpenLongTrails.org

5mo

Also, as of 2023, there's about 275 miles in Washington's Mt Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest where hikers need "bear resistant food storage," essentially between White Pass and Stehekin.

More info: https://www.reddit.com/r/PacificCrestTrail/comments/12ozp53/275_miles_of_the_pct_in_washington_impacted_by/

cc u/ExtensionSwing7

somuchliquorice

5mo

Does anyone know of options to rent a bear cannister for this section? Or who I should suggest such a rental scheme to? When I was planning for 2020 (a hike that obviously never happened) it was possible to rent a cannister for the stretch in California where they were required and coming from abroad this would be a great option for me. I don't particularly want to actually own a bear can that I would perhaps only ever need for those two sections or at least VERY infrequently in the future. Seems like a waste of resources.

somuchliquorice

5mo

Not an excuse not to store your food properly in bear country, but making the logistics of getting hold of and getting rid of your bear can easier probably wouldn't do anything bad for compliance rates.

numbershikes

'17 nobo, '18 lash, '19 Trail Angel. OpenLongTrails.org

5mo

It's not much more to buy one and then sell it afterwards compared with most options to rent.

I wouldn't be surprised if Yogi from Triple Crown Outfitters (the Kennedy Meadows outfitter you're thinking of) extends her bear can rental program to cover hikers in Washington.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

6mo

The PCTA can.

https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/backcountry-basics/food/bear-canister-protecting-your-food/

TheNameIsAnIllusion

-12

6mo

Let's hope they put a bear box in the middle. People won't buy a canister for a single day to then ship it along until they need it again.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

6mo

Bear boxes fill up. Bear boxes get damaged and not replaced. Bear boxes increase the number of people willing to go to a place, and therefore, negative impacts on the area.

Carrying a bear can is the better, smarter decision than relying on a bear box having enough room for your stuff. Especially in and around places as popular as Desolation Wilderness.

JayPetey

[PCT 2021 / NOBO]

6mo

The worst is when the bear box is filled with bear cans.

nehiker2020

6mo

There are lots of bear boxes along the AT. I have never seen one damaged. They are supposed to withstand a determined full-size bear. Most backpackers do not walk around with 20lb sledgehammers.

theducker

6mo

We go ultralight, stick with the 18lbs sledges

Atlas-Scrubbed

6mo

Wow. Where did you find one that light? It must have cost $1000.

airbornermft

6mo

Seconded. There was only one I can remember that had rusted through the bottom, but it was absolutely ancient. Bear boxes (or poles, on the AT anyway) are the way to go. You can’t depend on every hiker to be doing the right or correct thing. And even then bears find ways to get into any canister. That being said I still carried my canister most of the way until I was through North Carolina and Tennessee where I knew there wouldn’t be as many boxes or poles.

danceswithsteers

NOBO (Thru turned Section hiker) 2018, 2019, 2022, 2023

5mo

Good thing bear boxes aren't put in places with trees and heavy snowfall combined....

1 missing reply