is there a less-expensive alternative that provides the same quality?
Absolutely. Met a guy at the bike park a couple weeks ago with a Yeti SB 165 Turq. Said he just bought the bike to ride trails around the Boston area, and he got a good deal on it, around $7,500. My buddy and I were heading up the lift, and asked if he wanted to go down the black tech trails we were hitting. He was like "Fuck that, I just do the easy green trails!"
Thank God, because he would've smoked both our black stanchioned asses!! 🤣
Guess I'm consider a noob as well with my cane creek helm mk ii.
How do we survive? 🤣
Unfortunately, we're just gonna have to settle for 2nd place.
Coming second is the mark of a gracious lover also fyi
Less pressure.
Hahaha... hilarious 😂
If I vinyl wrap my black stanchions with gold, does that make them factory?
Yes indeed in the 30 yrs I've been riding I guess I peaked in 2009 when I had a suntour with gold stanchions.
I'm proud of my 30$ AliExpress carbon seat on my 5k trail bike. I just ride alone to avoid being lapidated by savage dentists on their Santa Cruz and yetis
The 350k$ ZwickRoell friction measuring machine in my company says something different, after around 50 different coating combination friction tests. sorry for the fanboys.
No i have more upvotes than you
True :( got me with that argument :D
But, gold.
exactly xD this is the reason people are buying this shit and of course the shitton of money Fox spends to sponsor athletes with hardware.
Exactly I spend most of my time in the skies so why wouldn't I use something often used in aerospace? If I was a measely ground dweller maybe I'd settle for less.
Says the dentist on a Santa Cruz….
Proven to be faster because people see it and get out of your way?
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16d
Except it's not, if you do any kind of maintenance on your fork at all. Kashima is an industrial coating that was never intended for this purpose and has negligible actual benefits. If you run your fork dry, well that's where it shines.
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16d
*Red
To be honest, a 2 year old zeb from pink bike with a luftkappe is miles ahead of any fox with kashima.
Wrong. The luftkappe is inside, how will people at the trailhead know you're faster than them?
Comes with a luftkappe sticker in the package for the fork.
Kashima being outside is more aero.
It's a gold letter, luftkappe sticker 😁
If there is no sale, I'd go with Performance Elite instead, which is exactly the same as Factory except for the Kashima coating. RockShox Ultimate products are on the same level as well and usually a little bit cheaper.
Whether one needs the high-end series is another question. For pro riders it makes a difference, but for a regular rider Performance and Select(+) may be already sufficient.
Bro I just like orange
Then get the Factory of course! I was just talking about technical aspects, but buying MTB parts is usually also emotional.
Same. I built up my whole bike around an orange 38. Raw spire with orange factory fork, orange coil, and matching frame decals in factory orange.
Also, it's only like $100 more than performance elite if buying aftermarket. If bike comes with performance elite it's fine, but I only buy frames....
That being said, I have a Z1 Bomber on my other bike, and it feels about the same as the factory 38. Although I put a coil spring in the 38 now, and it just feels incredible. Coil Z1 Bomber has to be the best budget choice for a burly build.
Yes Z1/F36R truly is the godmode of budget bike builds. I wish all my bikes had them. Instead Im stuck with these 38 elites on my 2 main bikes. Shit sucks.
You can swap in a Grip damper in a performance fork and you essentially have the Factory model.
Kashima is great for bling factor and resale.
The Performance has the Grip damper already (same for the Rhythm, which has another casting though). You need to swap in Grip 2 or FIT 4 to convert it into an Elite. For Factory you would need Kashima.
What you’re paying for mainly is the finely tuned damper, and of course the premium look that comes with the gold stantions. While not really functional, they are a status symbol in the community which alone makes the premium price worth it for some people.
If it is only for you and not to impress others, it is actually a legit reason to buy it imho. Buying MTB parts is not always rational.
Problem is performance elite is OEM only, so you have to look on the used market
Not anymore. That was true until a few years ago.
No? I bought a brand new performance elite 36 from fox last summer.
In EU, you can buy the Elite at regular online shops.
No but if you can find a banger deal then go for it. Snagged a 38 factory 160mm for 50% off
Personally at that price I prefer Ohlins, but it's not to say fox is not good. Their X2 shock had a lot of issues tho.
The 2024 is much better and have had no issues with mine, over 40 days riding the north shore, squamish and whistler
In the 2024 they put 2 seals in the head and a massive negative token that basically kills small bump sensitivity but makes it much more resilient to the slurp
You know the bar is low when 40 days with no trouble counts as reliable…
I mean the service interval is 125 hours and I'm WELL over that hy now with no issues. 40+ days of riding is more than a lot of people get out in a year and its only June.
The north shore and squamish is pretty brutal on equipment so I'd say it's a pretty reliable shock with the abuse I've put it through.
Yeah well that's why I've never bought new gens of anything right away
Yeah I've seen good reviews so far on the new version.
Yes, if you’re running a 27.5. They are on sell at a lot of locations. (We live in a29er world) If not go with the Elite series best balance of performance and price.
This. Found a new 34 for my 5010 under $400. At that price I was just making the call off the aesthetics.
Can you provide links to these sales if possible?
Just use google. I got a Fox 36 Factory 27.5” for $250ish when it was posted here a long time ago. Yes, it was FIT4, but whatever. The price was legit. I got a 27.5 Fox 36 Factory with GRIP2 for under $400 from CRC as well.
FRICK. i need to find one. thanks
i grabbed a fox 36 factory with grip2 damper from the planet cyclery going out of business sale for 300 or so. It was cheaper to buy this fork than upgrade my old rc2 lyrik with all the bells and whistles.
So jealous
Jenson might still be giving em away. I got a factory 130mm fit4 for like $440. The 38s were even cheaper
I think Fox when they first came around in the late 90's/2000's were on a different level of build quality; close tolerances, machined parts, mostly metal parts, etc. Nowadays I think the rest of the pack is putting out just as good or better and oftentimes at a better price point than Fox. I really hate the fact you have to send your stuff in for service and they won't sell you the special tools even if you wanted to service their newer stuff yourself. I switched to RockShox and it was so refreshing to get a new fork and there already be a service video from SRAM on youtube describing a full teardown day one.
This times 1000!!!
I hate i cannot service my fox products and have moved away from them because of this. The not selling me the tools for charging thennitrogen on my x2 was the last straw.
Kashima coating is actually legit, definitely not necessary though.
Fox customer service is a 10/10.
I’m willing to bet 99.99% of this sub could ride Factory and Performance Elite back to back and not be able to accurately say which is which.
I’d say: ask your team mechanic if it’s worth it. If you don’t have a team mechanic to ask, then the answer is a default no.
I don't think you could feel it, but my perception of its improvement in durability is positive.
I have tested different materials for scratch resistance and if you have a soft base material, like Al, no coating will protect you from deep scratches. Because the base material will simply move out of the way until the hard top layer cracks. BTW, in principle, if RockShox is actually using DLC, their coating should be far far far superior to kashima or standard anodizing, if hardness and low friction would really make such a big impact. Kashima has a COF of 0.2 in the ball on disk friction test, vs 0.1 for DLC, Kashima hardness is up to 450 Hv, while DLC easily goes to 2200 Hv.
Ah interesting. I guess I don’t really scratch my stanchions ever regardless of if they are kashima or not so I can’t really compare.
Just gotta crash more bro
kashima go brr
yea I know I'm not skilled enough to tell. I have the basic fox fork that comes on a trance x and I'm sure it's more than I'll ever need.
It's not that it is better feeling. It lasts longer.
Lasts longer? What’s the context of that claim? I can understand if someone says a bike tire is made from a material that lasts longer because tires obviously wear out, but what does it mean for a fork to last longer?
It's much harder than traditional hard aluminum anodizing. Hardness of Kashima Coated (hard anodizing) aluminum can reach 400HV. On some abrasion resistance testing, Kashima Coat (hard anodizing) was measured 3 times harder than chrome plating.
Kashima Coat on aluminum application is reviewed as an alternative component of steel or stainless steel for light-weighted and hardness characteristics in automotive applications.
From experience, the anodizing on Rockshox fades over time, it becomes thinner and takes on a greyer like sheen. I personally have not seen that happen to Kashima coated forks.
Surely that translates to feeling though, right? Eventually? Because if the Rockshox stuff wears down after say 5+ years and the kashima coated stuff doesn’t, there seems like there would be a point where you can tangibly feel one is better than the other. Or one becomes a maintenance headache over the other?
I’ve got friends with some really old Rockshox and Fox gear but they never, ever service their gear so I doubt they’d comment much on stanchion anodization wear when they haven’t had a lower service in half a decade.
Full disclosure: I have kashima coating in one of my bikes fork/shock/seatpost. But I can’t feel a difference, I can’t see a difference yet, and I can’t imagine I’ll have the bike for enough years to make that difference actually matter. This isn’t me saying it’s snake oil, but more that I question if the benefit of the coating will ever translate into something that matters to your average Joe recreational rider.
Not even the big publications funded by equipment manufacturers seem to suggest it’s worth buying Kashima coated stuff. They all say, in reviews I’ve seen, that the step down is the one that makes sense.
Just my speculation, but I'd guess that bushing wear would dominate over stanchion anodization wear, in terms of the amount of play/slop that develops over time.
I scratched my coating within 6 months. Wasn't even a hard crash.
I'm not sure you can put that down to intended use lol. If it wasn't so hard, what turned out as a scratched coating might have been a scratched aluminum without it.
There's really not much difference in price usually between Factory and Performance Elite if you're buying aftermarket. It's like $70 or so.
For a $70 difference, I'd probably get it. Anecdotally, I had a 36 factory on a bike I rode hard for three years and the stanchions still looked good when I sold it.
My rockshox stanchions still look like new after 3 years of heavy riding too. Just wipe them down after every ride and do regular fork maintenance
It’s necessary if you are trying to look cool in the lot after a ride through
And before. And when it's on the rack to and from the trail head.
And when you're standing in the garage staring at your bikes
Probably the most important
It's why I spent the extra coin to upgrade the spec to get the overpriced and not very consistent Fox Transfer Post.
Yeah fox service is worth it. I couldn’t find a random part for my dhx2 and they just sent it to me free of charge 🤙
Fox service is soo good that when Fox knowingly directly sells you an X2 shock that is part of their affected older stock of defective parts, they actually tell you that you must pay to ship the defective product back to them to evaluate.
Fortunately I persisted and they covered shipping, but to intentionally sell crap product to customers without warning and then react with a shocked Pikachu face when you let them know the flagship product you purchased is garbage out the box, I cannot say Fox customer service is 10/10.
I have a bunch of fox factory stuff as I can get it cheap.
I have to get it re-valved to have it feel like I want.
When I have the heavier compression tunes in the forks and shocks they are excellent.
Kashima coat does appear to be superior to the regular black ano from a durability standpoint.
How much and where you ride is what ultimately decides if that matters.
Performance Elite is exactly the same without the Kashima.
The Kashima coating isn't as big of a deal as the damper. There's a Grip2 damper and a Fit4 damper. Grip2 gives you far more adjustability. Fit4 is more for a set it and forget it kind of person.
Definitely not the Transfer post, although I hear they finally managed to get it to work with the latest version.
Marzocchi Z1 is a Fox 36 with slightly heavier upper tubes and a Grip damper. It's got a big gold knob to control compression (no clicks) and a little clicky rebound knob.
I think it fits your request of less expensive alternative for same quality as it's also produced in the same factory.
Downsides are some extra weight & less adjustability options. I have one, I really like it. I'm not a tweaker so less options sort of works for me.
For 99% of people no. Fox Factory and Performance Elite are identical in most cases outside of the Kashima coating which is just a marketing gimmick and style issue.
The same can be said however of the super high end Rockshox ultimate stuff. Most people will be fine with Fox performance or even Rhythm, and Rockshox Select stuff.
Personally, I think SR Suntour high end stuff is awesome and offers more bang for your buck.
My brothers cheap ass hardtail has a Suntour in the front and the thing is actually suprisingly good, not the same the suspension on my Hardtail, but its actually decent
Kashima is definitely better than the other stuff. Whether how much money I'd give for it? Hard to say, but definitely less than 100.
To me the difference is not necessarily performance as such, but it's about maintaining that performance throughout the ride and easier to get it in top shape for years
better sure...how much we talking. I understand it's scientifically less friction, but what are we talking about .5% improvement over an already excellent surface coating? It's a non factor and 99.5% marketing and brand recognition.
to me that's not the factor, it's also much much better at shedding mud and dust and clean itself, that's where it makes the difference.
I indeed don't believe a perfectly clean kashima fork performs noticeably better than a well maintained cleand non-kashima fork out of the gate. Key word noticeable. But it does matter by the end of the day
With Fox Factory, you are paying a huge premium for the kashima coating. Just get Fox Performance Elite fork / shock. Exact same, just without the kashima. Hundreds of dollars cheaper.
Yes because they are usually on major sale. Kashima was $50 more when I purchased. No clue if Kashima does anything but for looks alone it was totally worth the small extra cost. I know people joke about this, but it does make you feel kinda badass ngl.
My best friend works at Fox and has hooked my bike the fuck up with fox suspension, raceface cranks, bars yadda yadda. I would never ever tell him this but I miss my ohlins fork.
Most people who have an opinion do not have the skills to push the bike hard enough to really notice the difference in the first place tbh
So my dad has some fix factory stuff and they have been through hell and back, I have seen him abuse his shocks by bottoming then out, laying the bike down on a gravel trail, casing a triple, he has had them for about 6 years and they haven't broke but they did get a rebuild about 3 years in. I would say if you're going to send it like senna I would get them they have passed the torture test of an adult trying to ride like a teenager and still function properly.
I scratched my kashima coating within 6 months. So no it's not worth it. It's killing me now. 🤣
I have kashima, I ride like crap, I can't tell the difference, not really.
For most riders and even most pros, Marzocchi Bomber is all you need and will be much easier to setup. If you like to geek out for hours bracketing and making small adjustments to LSC/HSC, then factory or perf elite is worth it. It probably won't make you faster, but may get you the feel you want.
I going to say no. Unless your in the top 5% of riders all the adjustments are overkill, your never going to notice the difference between Kashima and black stanchions. The weight savings is really the only plus. Honestly after having factory stuff and RS uktimate stuff IMO save some money and go with the Marzocchi Z1 or Z2 or the whatever the entry level Pike, Lyrik or Zeb is and put that money saved toward wheels. Unless weight is just super important to you it’s just not that much difference.
Kashima clashes with my bike’s color scheme, which makes my bike sad, which makes it angry with me, which makes it not respond to me at all. Death to Kashima.
Fox transfer droppers are absolute crap. Even sending it in to get fixed comes backs broke.
I think it's worth it for the longevity. I don't know about you guys but black Fox wears out for me even with regular servicing. Kashima doesn't.
I’ve only ever had kashima so I can’t comment. What what what
The damper is more important.
At the recreation hobby level… no, most of the models are pretty similar, they function similarly, Factory stuff is more refined, prettier, and on an incremental scale definitely better, also more valuable so more maintenance n money. Better. Yes. Worth it? Probably not
For what it's worth, I've replaced every Fox suspension product I've ever ridden with Manitou
Anyone else think this thread was regardinf fox clothing. Totally different company????
If so i try to buy callus clothinf when possible. 1/2 the price and irs a local brand
I’d say no because their products are impossible to service without proprietary tools and my rockshox forks and shocks have lasted much longer without blowing up and losing pressure or dampening. If you are looking for performance and not long term durability and serviceability then sure.
I prefer the feel of the grip2 to the Rockshox charger 3 damper. I have one of each on my two bikes. So yeah, I think Fox makes a great fork.
No but they look f***ing sweet so I buy them.
I love my Fox shocks, forks and seat posts. I have 4 mountain bikes and always look for bikes with Fox products. The reason is that for me they work very well and they have been reliable. Two bikes have the kashima coating. While I love the look, I can’t tell the difference in ride quality. For reference I ride in the Colorado Rockies and Pacific Northwest.
You can find them on ebay, for a bit cheaper than new. A lot of people swap it out for better Rockshox.
Ok. This bothers me that everyone always defaults to the price comparison. It’s not $300 better. Or you can’t tell the difference. I want to hear about performance, not value. Or that’s how I like to hear reviews on products. The person can make the decision after hearing the difference if it’s worth the extra money to them.
Marginal gains, honestly. It's one of those things that unless you're a pro rider fighting for the podium, you're going to have the same amount of fun on any decent fork (even rhythm)
Have had a few bikes with expensivish Fox, honestly my latest 'cheap' Marzocchi is just as good if not better IMO. It also has much nicer decals :)
Yes'nt
I’m never mad when I look in my garage and see a bunch of kashima
marzocchi is made by fox, less adjustments but you it gets you fox quality at a deep discount
You didn’t mention a budget or use case but a Mezzer pro is much cheaper and performs so much better than any fox fork.
There are definitely benefits, but they could be considered minor. It depends on what you are looking for out of your bike, equipment, and ultimately the aesthetic.
Marzocchi is where it’s at
Seconded. The Z2 is just a Fox34 and the Z1 is a slight variation of a Fox36.
Also a general public service announcement, a couple brands have either "budget" options or lines. They aren't really budget though, they're essentially the same fork or shock with damper or internals that just eliminate some of the adjustment options to save cost...which is totally if if you're a set-it-forget-it person who just looks up the reccomended default specs and goes "yep that'll work" and don't mess around beyond a few tweaks to the basic settings (psi, a rebound click or two, maybe a spacer token).
Fox does this with Marzocchi but Rockshox has a few fork options that are essentially the same. As does DVO.
Bomber Z1 is my favorite fork I have on any of my bikes. Sure it's heavy but it just wants to EAT up anything you throw at it. Never once felt underforked with a 140mm Z1
DVO is the best. Been swapping all my bikes. Just built a new 5010 and tossed on the Diamond D1 and the Topaz for less than a Fox Factory 36 on sale.
I run the same combo on my Ripmo and it's legit! So much tunability!
So easy to find cheap Dvo takeoffs from the Ibis riders. It’s crazy that Ari’s lowest end bikes come with DVO.
I think it depends on the model for sure. When I built my ripmo I opted for the higher Diamond D1 to get that little bit extra.
Most riders don’t know enough about tuning to make use of the settings properly. The lower dampers protect people from their own ignorance most times. I loved my Z1 as much as any factory fork.
Performance elite is the same thing but not gold and 100$ less I go for that unless there’s a deal to be had on factory
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17d
The only difference between Elite and Factory is the Kashima coating. Everything else is exactly the same, including all other materials and the weight.
You can't buy elite after market though it's only OEM, so unless you're buying a new bike it's often difficult to get. Rockshox has slightly better value in the aftermarket space, with DVO or Suntour offering even more value generally.
Best bang for your buck I think is rockshox new stuff personally, I've never gotten along with fox because there seems to be way more maintenance issues.
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17d
You're comparing a 34 to a 36 when riding DH. Of course it's going to feel better. If you had the factory 34 and switched to the performance 36 it would have still felt better.
Why would you associate those gains with kashima as opposed to the other more significant changes?
Edit: and why would you block me for asking this? Pathetic.
Realistically not much of an improvement compared to performance elite (non Kashima) but it is better and more importantly lets everyone else know you’re better than them
Factory is the only level that has both high and low speed adjustments for both compression and rebound. So if that’s important to you then yes.
No. Damper upgrades and stanchion coating are low yield in terms of performance, especially when the new fork is poorly assembled at the factory which is common.
Better to spend the money on a used Fox fork with a basic Grip damper, professional suspension service, bushing burnish, air spring upgrade (Luftkappe, Secus, Runt etc..), modified damper valving. Likely will cost you less even after all that. Will definitely perform better.
No.
All the people saying kashima is a gimmick….
It’s proven to be faster. You show up the to the trailhead and everyone knows your the shit. This guy is a shredder. I look down on anyone with black stanchions. Peasants the lot of them.