So I (26m) am a pretty confident, fairly good looking dude. Because of that I don't really have a problem with getting dates. What I do have a problem with are the dates themself. I feel like everytime I go on a date, it's the same story. We go for some coffee, we talk, we laugh. I try to ask questions, be attentive and all that good stuff. At the end, we say stuff like "it was fun" and go our seperate ways. No spark, no romance, just some good friendly conversation. I feel like maybe I should make some more bold moves like touching, complimenting and such but if I just think "ok I need to touch her hand" it's probably gonna be creepy and forced. I really don't want to make the girl uncomfotable. I guess my question comes down to "how to flirt on a first date to not be a creep"
Every time I go on a date, we have a good time, I tell jokes and then we part as friends. How do I turn it romantic?
Dating / Sex / Relationships (❤️February Special!❤️)It doesn’t sound to me like the problem is what you’re doing on dates, what you want is exactly what you’re doing and other than maybe making an effort to make more eye contact or giving them simple compliments I wouldn’t change anything.
What I’d say you’re failing at is the follow-up. The quick text the next day to say “hey, I had a really good time yesterday, let’s grab dinner soon” or something like that. The whole idea of “don’t contact her for a couple days” thing is nonsense, especially these days when everyone is so connected.
You could also consider less neutral first dates, lunch/coffee is safe and if someone is shy or nervous that’s a good call… but just like dinner and a movie it’s very “plain” and some women want a man to actually put some effort into planning an activity.
Before the date put some effort into finding out their hobbies and interests, if you find out they like sports then maybe you go bowling or disc golfing, if they like art maybe find a local exhibit or museum, etc. something where you can still talk but also do something besides sit and drink coffee.
Meeting someone for lunch coffee feels like something you do with friends, being taken to an art showing or going out somewhere with someone feels like a date. Maybe you’re playing it too safe.
Interesting point, thank you for that!
You are talking and interacting as a good friend, you are gonna get good friends. You are good looking, I bet the women you are seeing also are just as good looking as you, so that cancels each other out. You have two options for a different result, first is to go out with a less attractive other and do the same thing, another is to take some risks and get straight to the point.
If you went on 5 dates with a girl and never made a move that’s an entirely different situation than the OP going on a first date and then not following up. He never said anything about going on subsequent dates, he’s talking about first dates.
If you think you need “playful banter”, physical touch, etc. to show your romantic interest then it sounds like you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m not saying that doesn’t work, but this idea a lot of people have that you need to be some smooth romantic “Don Juan” person to be successful dating is nonsense.
I’ve been with my wife for 12 years, I was in a number of serious relationships prior to that, dated plenty of women casually, and I’ve never had to act anything other than naturally. Sure, I can be funny but I’ve never been “flirty” or “smooth”, and while I’d say I’m above average in looks I’m by no means someone women would call “hot”.
The point I’m trying to get across is that how you interact with a woman after your first date is just as important as how you act on the date. If you’re making them feel comfortable, making them laugh, and they are having a good time on the date that’s a successful date.
If the OP is getting dropped after that it’s not that he isn’t being flirty or charming enough, it’s that he doesn’t know how to follow up on the successful date. The same with you, if you went on five dates and all five dates were plain and friendly and you didn’t express your interest some other way between dates then of course she’s going to bail because you aren’t showing initiative.
You need to communicate your romantic intent. You do that with both direct communication (like the example I gave previously), and with the types of dates and settings. You also need to know how to read a situation for when certain things are appropriate.
Advising people to sit close, touch their shoulder, etc. is bad advice when it’s given universally, especially for someone who already isn’t comfortable making romantic moves. That might work with some people, but other people are going to be really put off by that and frankly if someone is on this sub asking for dating advice then they don’t have the experience reading people to know the difference.
Honestly there’s really no clear cut guide— ideally the things you do need to come naturally so I agree, just randomly touching their hand because something online said it was a good thing to do. However, in one way or another I think you need to give off a different type of confidence than what you’re giving off in order to be seen as hot/create more of an attraction. I wanna be clear this is not PUA type advice or any corny shit about being an alpha male or whatever.
But yea you need to have to confidence to straight up drop compliments about how they look really good or you noticed a certain thing and you liked it. DONT JUST TALK ABOUT HER BODY — earrings outfits etc are good starting points, if it’s well received maybe you slightly escalate to saying she’s pretty or her hair looks nice, etc. It could be like a fallback if the conversation dies down a little. This is something that’s so nuanced and so personal there’s no clear cut guide but you have to want her and show it without crossing the line, and you have to be genuine about it, not just doing things that you read online would work. Hold eye contact but not for insanely long. If you want to touch her hand, and it’s there, do it, but don’t go way out of your way.
I would love for an actual woman to be able to comment on if I’m right or if this is too much; however I will say this is the type of thing that works on my wife so I’m not just making it up completely. Feminism has done a lot of great work in the world so far, but one thing it has done is for young men made it kind of unclear how to navigate the dating world respectfully. Which is good because they were absolutely doing it disrespectfully in a lot of ways for a long time. However, in my experience, most women that date men I think are still expecting men to be making the more direct moves and will probably assume you either aren’t interested enough or aren’t confident enough to really go for it if you only want to joke around and have fun. Most women still feel not completely allowed to just say and do what they want in a situation like that and are looking to have that responsibility lifted a bit.
Edit: i also just wanted to add that plenty of people are completely fine with just straight up being asked something like “can I kiss you”, so if you prefer to be more upfront like this then go for it. If they aren’t ok with being asked that but they are ok with being kissed out of nowhere then they definitely need to work on that themselves and it’s not your problem lol.
Men getting so focused on "making the right moves" is advice missing the mark in this woman's experience. This is about building a relationship. So paying attention, reading cues, asking questions about her, listening to the answers, showing you have absorbed the information she has shared, showing some aspects of your own self without being self centered- these are all just very basic things. But if you don't do them, none of the other stuff matters. You would not believe how many women return from a date in disgust saying "He never once asked me a single questions about myself". Be curious, be actually interested in discovering the person you are with. That's it.
I dunno my wife kept wanting me to kiss her but instead I felt her up in the Uber and that worked. Not sure I'd recommend it maybe try going for a kiss?
I may be wrong but I feel like a kiss is a "you feel the right moment" kind of thing. Small stuff like compliments or subtle touching I can see being actionable steps, "just kiss her" sounds to me like an overkill
Just sharing my limited experience.
I think a lot of people expect life to be like movies. That first kiss us in my experience awkward. Just make sure she's not pulling away as you go in.
As a woman, I want to date someone I feel like I have a friend relationship with first. I continue to invite people I like to hang out and then stuff organically grows from there. Personally I wouldn't like being touched on a first date if I didn't already know the person.
If it is a dinner date, do you sit across from them or next to them? I suggest sitting next to them as long as they are comfortable with it. It establishes "allied" body positioning, where sitting across from them can create an adversarial or at best neutral dynamic. This side-positioning can facilitate shared personal space (again being sensitive to receptivity from the date). This can set the stage for hand-holding later, when walking. This is just body-language stuff. You want to make her comfortable and safe. Remain a gentleman, but show interest with smiles and questions about her and actually BE interested.
When the chance for affection arises, ASK for it in a way that isn't pressuring. I've had some success, with a basic "So, care to fool around?", when in a couch/chilling situation. Again, respect any reluctance from the woman with satisfaction with whatever her wishes are, but make sure your appreciation for her is expressed.
Are you feeling that spark with them?
I mean, I find them attractive and nice, I feel like I want to pursue the relation. I guess a good first step would be to think about what I understand as "the spark" which I can't really define off the top of my head atm.
I think you’re on the right track.
I think if you focus too much on the spark you risk missing good potential partners that maybe aren't very comfortable on first dates... Some people take some time to open up, and you only start to get a vibe of how they are on second or third dates, which by then they're often filtered out already because of lack of spark
This is also important to keep in mind! I was getting the sense that the “spark” was missing for both parties. Cultivating an awareness of what really interests him will make small actions like touch and conversation come more naturally when they are things he actually wants to do with the other person. But to discern that from a feeling that’s “supposed” to happen is very important.
"how to flirt on a first date to not be a creep"
Dr. K did a video about this very topic. You'll probably find that helpful.
Personally, I was terrible at flirting and romance, but still managed to turn first dates into more dates, and then into relationships a few times, including with the girl I married. My take on your situation is that it could be one of a hundred different things that are wrong, and that you shouldn't take the complete absence of a positive response from them as some failure to make a move. It may be that you are doing something unattractive that's warding them off. And I don't want to make you self-conscious, but it could be anything. It's really hard to know from the outside.
To give you an example, the key turning point for me was when I realized that what I called being "kind of goofy" was actually me being aggressively disarming and passive. I was funny and nice, but I wouldn't take a firm stand on anything. I wanted desperately to not be taken seriously, as a way to quell my own anxiety and fear. It was only when I consciously identified that problem and decided to hold onto the anxiety and fear instead of running from it that I suddenly became date-able. And I don't think this is a manliness thing; I think no matter who you are, fleeing from the first sign of tension is deeply unattractive.
That was my main issue. I solved this one big thing, and suddenly women wanted to go on more dates with me. It wasn't like all of my problems were solved, but then I had newer, better problems, like putting my foot in my mouth or getting triggered and being a jerk. But I wasn't hopeless anymore.
It's damn hard to identify the problems when you get maybe one date in two or three years. And even if I might have some idea about what I have done wrong, I have very little chance to test the theory. Also makes it harder to practice flirting.
Well yeah. That advice was for someone who's going on dates. If you can't even get that far, you have a different (but also solvable) problem.
There’s a simple concept in sales that I think applies here: ask for the sale. Simply ask your dates if they want to go out again. A first date should be very friendly. The whole point is to see if y’all can even tolerate each other for a short time period. Now you need to extend
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You don't need too many compliments, 1 to 3 very lightweight compliments should suffice. Try to deliver them with strong eye contact in an almost deadpan manner.
You can do casual touching on her front or upper arm when she's in reach while you're saying smth funny or laughing at her jokes. Just reach to her or at her slowly and touch her very gently.
These are all non-intrusive ways to flirt without making your date uncomfortable. They might like it, they might not. Just followup with a text message or at the end of the date that you had a good time(that is if you did) and that you want to meetup again later.
Bro, try this: At the end of the date ask her "I kind of want to kiss you, would that be ok?".
If she says yes, great. If she says no, you say "That's completely ok" and mean it.
Figure out the rest from there. Good luck, soldier.
I guess my question comes down to "how to flirt on a first date to not be a creep"
Flirting is what the first date is for. To be a creep you would have to actively ignore her signs for you to back off.
I would to keep the flirting pretty light because you are new to it. Just give a few compliments (The more unique the better in my opinion). Touch her arm at some point on the date, while you are talking about her.
This stuff feels scary to you because you have never done it before. Test the waters a bit. You will find it's not as bad as it seems now.
Testing the waters carefully is probably the way to go. I really don't want to be the guy that's too touchy when it's inapropriate but I can definitely think of times when there was a chance for appropriate intimacy but I played it too safe because of overthinking
It's usually only inappropriate if you ignore her signals. She should make a clear reaction if she is uncomfortable. Do you have trouble with nonverbal cues?
More like I do my best not to give her a reason to feel uncomfotable. For example last date I've been on I noticed the signals that said she feels comfortable (opening up her body, longer eye contact, being cool with me sitting closer) but I didn't follow it up with anything because I didn't want to screw it up in a way.
Making people slightly uncomfortable is okay. They will not run out on a date because of something small. Acknowledge it and continue the date.
I think you are ready to take some small risks. You've got this.
As a woman I wouldn’t recommend some of this advice. Like don’t sit next to me on a first date at a restaurant (unless we already knew each other as friends) and don’t try to kiss me unless I am clearly signaling it and we have otherwise broken the touch barrier. I think you’re too busy thinking of a formula for a date when you just need to work on your confidence. It really doesn’t matter what you say as long as you exude confidence. That could be the confidence to touch me (gently grab my hand, compliment my jewelry or something). The difference between being creepy and “masculine” is honestly confidence. Not arrogance, just a casual comfortability. Try to laugh more and women are totally into you trying harder (with flowers, with a spontaneous dance (depending on the venue), etc
My guess? Girls leave the dates thinking “ oh I though he was interested but it looks like he doesn’t like me, he would have let me know he wanted more if he wanted so.
This is actually very simple. Be friendly on a date and the girl will think you want to be her friend. Be flirty and she will now you like her.
You just need to tell her she looks good, guide her into the coffee shop by the small of the back and yes, holding her hand. If you are having fun she will just pull it away and everything is fine. And definitely tell her the next day that you enjoyed yourself and would love to see her again.
I don't feel comfortable doing anything on the first date because they could be thinking "oh god this was a mistake!" internally while being polite enough to continue the date.
Perhaps having a conversation like "I'm looking for a relationship" or after the date ask them on a more romantic/intimate second date. I once went on four dates with a girl without making a single move... that was awful. Now I just straight up ask if I can kiss them while we're on the second date if things are going well.
Kino escalation, you have to touch her.
Look into Jean Smith's HOT APE TEDx talk. (https://youtu.be/5cQoGNEcc5Q?si=cSpopCcskNpXqqyk) Are you doing all of these things and are they being reciprocated?
Go on more dates. Ask to see her again. Force less.
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