I’m not complaining about women dating up. If men had the same options, most men would be dating up too.

I thought this was a debate, you’re just proving my point.

My standards are currently reasonable enough that dating isn’t a problem. The point of the debate was that self-improvement still has an upper bound and I have to know my standards even though this subreddit tries to convince me otherwise

Totally not what I meant. I generally date women within my league and I’m very happy about it. What I meant was I constantly see self-improvement thrown around as a fix-all and I’m arguing there is a cap to it.

No one said anything about stop working. Working on yourself definitely makes things better than what you have currently but it does have a cap.

I could work all my life but with what I have, I’ll never be as rich as someone with generational wealth. It doesn’t mean I’m giving up but that I’m acknowledging what my limits are.

Mother Nature is a bitch indeed.

I can somewhat agree with your point of becoming better overall to appeal to the women I want. But what does one do if the women they want is 7+/10 and they look a 3/10? There’s no workout to fix ugly unfortunately:(

Well, there is Johnny Sins bald and then there is Danny DeVito bald.

I never said I don’t get women. It’s definitely not holding me back from other below average looking women. The point was that there are a lot of them who are always unattainable to me just based on how I look :(

I agree, but in regards to dating, the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

I'm sorry you had to deal with this and I'm sure your struggle is a lot more than most of us. I do feel you when you said "I dealt with it by accepting it". I guess all there is left for me is to accept the fact that a good chunk of women will never want me and live with it.

you are just at the beginning of your career. 

I'm in tech and I already make more than most of my peers. Yes, I do have room to grow as I age but it doesn't matter in the context of dating. At least I don't wanna be dating at 40s. And if a lot of women aren't attracted to me now, that ain't gonna change as I age.

People also age.

Exactly! Also, not everyone age well. If you haven't guessed from my username, I'm balding already and aging ain't helping it :(

you are nowhere near your natty limit.

I don't disagree, I'm definitely gonna be a lot more muscular if I give it another 5 years but I'll alos be above 30. Even with all that, there is an upper limit to how much it will improve my dating game.

If you plateaued in the gym or in your career

So you're telling me if I keep working hard enough, I will be the next Elon Musk?

Will do.

No one is saying women are incapable of harm. But as a monkey brained man, I'm more scared of physical threats from men than women. I live in a city with a lot of homeless people and walking in the night is sometimes scary. I'm going to be naturally be way more scared of a homeless man on drugs than a women. There's also the fact that I can defend myself physically from most women.

I was responding to the list you had on the post. I do agree make up makes a significant difference.

I got mixed opinions on this one. While I agree that a fat women do get way more attention than a fat man, I believe it's because of two reasons:

1. As with most species, in humans, the men are responsible for attracting a mate than a women. So a women could be fat and socially awkward but she is still going to have men approach her.
2. Men are more lenient with looks when it comes to casual sex. A lot of them are willing to date down to get some action.

If your goal is purely getting laid, yes, women have it way easier. There are fat ugly hoes but no fat ugly fuck boys. If your goal is a relationship, try approaching women of similar looks and hope she ain't delusional about her options.

Most grown men are quite strong and capable of significant damage, especially when compared to most women. Even if 1% of us are horrible POS who would do horrible things, the rest of the 99% want to stay away and be protected from them.

For one, there's prolly more harmful men given how testosterone makes us act and two, I can defend myself easily from most women.

So should you be wary of men whom you don't know? Totally. Does that imply all men are evil? No.

Doesn't the same apply for women too? Most men care about looks followed by personality with women. In the same sense, doesn't it mean it's limited for women too?

With introverts, time usually helps us to get out of our shell. If that's not an option, I'd say have a long date somewhere you both you relax and talk, and start with opening up on your end following with giving her the space to give her thoughts.

...so you're saying you don't want your partner to be proud/brag about you?

Exactly, when you filter for attractive/interesting when the single pool, good men significantly go down.

There’s pretty much equal number of ugly men to women. Even then men struggle more to get dates because a chunk of those women date up. Which also explains why they don’t get commitment.

I see two problems here: 1. There’s a good chunk of women who would stay single or date up than accept the fact that they gotta lower their expectations. And even the ones that do this are bitter about it. Social media is fucking with our expectations, men and women alike. 2. It’s primal for the male in most species to attract female than otherwise and this is true for us humans too. Men has always had to win over a women. So the onus is more on the man to get better than otherwise.