Absolutely. I pray it was other people who have been embittered too long to see the moderate things I said, rather than this dear woman who can still save her marriage. How have we become so calloused toward the covenant of marriage instituted by God that we jump straight to separation or divorce before even considering the holy pursuit of reconciliation? God, forgive those who took what this hurting woman wrote and carelessly jumped to something God says He hates.
And, par for the course, your comment was downvoted as well for likely the same reason. “Say the cheater is wrong for cheating, I’m okay with that and agree. Say the cheater is SOLELY responsible for their cheating and I’ll agree with that as well. But even DARE to suggest that the one being cheating on did anything but be a delightful, bend-over-backward-for-the-other-person spouse and I WILL make you suffer!” Both hurting men & women are guilty of this childish behavior. When they’re hurting already, they’re not in the right headspace to face honest self-reflection.
The sad thing to me about this, especially in a sub-Reddit on Christian marriage, is that self-reflection is the only thing that might save their marriage. But you can’t have that if you’re committed to demonizing your spouse and deifying yourself. I also don’t doubt that, in all likelihood, there are many people here in Reddit-land in the same condition as in our local churches: they’re divorced, or in the process of being divorced, and they know they’ve only got two biblical reasons to give for that divorce. So they either have those two options, even if it’s only creative ways of “technically” fitting into one of those two options, or admitting to themselves they just aren’t interested in making it work.
So, rather than except any accountability for their own part in the failure of the marriage, they blame the other person and put every follower of Jesus who knows them personally in the uncomfortable position to consider their own response to the situation: “I’ve either got to agree with them fully, without asking questions, or try to be objective and lose a friend.” I don’t think we realize how many times our selfish hurt has led to the evil of making other people complicit in our own sin. It’s no wonder that divorce rates have climbed the way they have. No one wants to run the risk of losing a friend or hurting someone’s feelings by challenging what a person is feeling or thinking when it comes to their spouse. God help us, we are not even gonna let God’s Word get in the way of what we want to do! We only like the truth when it’s aimed at somebody else. 🤷🏽♂️
It’s a social “shaming” technique b/c some don’t know how to disagree and move on. I can dislike a person’s words and not seek their harm, whether it’s in real life or just ‘socially.’ Quite simply, some people are just from different generations, and it shows. 😐
Guys are simple, sometimes embarrassingly so. I don’t know what led to this, and you may not either. I also can’t imagine what would drive a man to do this to his wife. I have no idea what your relationship was like prior to this, so please take everything I say here with a grain of salt. There are a couple of things that you mentioned that made me wonder. You mentioned him only getting you flowers after one of your friends said he should. The first thought that came to my mind was wondering if you had told him at some point in time that you don’t really care about flowers. It’s possible that he’s really just that dense; but it’s also possible that he took something you said before more seriously than you would’ve liked. I have also heard the horrible excuse for cheating as the spouse checked out on the relationship long before the other spouse cheated. I’m not saying that is what happened with you too, but that there are two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere between them.
I know I run the risk of sounding like a jerk for even suggesting these things, but this is why: If you take some of the advice of people on this thread, who have said that you need to separate immediately, then your marriage is already over and I can almost guarantee it’s not only his fault. Separation doesn’t necessarily give you the space to work through your problems toward reconciliation and a healed marriage; it’s possible, but it’s more likely that you’re just practicing for what your divorce will look like. As I said before, I don’t know what your marriage was like, but it’s well within your rights to say you don’t feel comfortable sleeping in the same bed with him so you need to know if he wants to sleep on the couch or will you. I get that there’s a gamble in saying that, but the test is twofold: Does he recognize that the problem is serious, and does this wake him up to his selfishness so that he says he will sleep on the couch? But regardless of what he says to this first question, you should also ask when he will be ready to talk about what he did, what led to it, and where you’re headed now.
This is NOT about you accepting guilt for HIS actions, but giving him the type of control men seem to want, but with the confidence they respect as well. Be ready: he ‘may’ use this as a time to blame you for what he did. That’s when you’ll have to resist the urge to “slap back” or yell at him. If you do that, he’ll have you right where he wants you. But you CAN say “I am not responsible for your bad choices. I’m responsible for mine. So we can talk about what we would have liked from each other, but we are both only responsible for OUR actions here.” That may not be how you talk, I get that, but guys are just better than women at detaching the facts of what happened from their emotions. We just are and, as a result, can be very hurtful to the women in our lives. This discussion will help you see where he is, and help you figure out where you’re going from here:
1) He’s already checked out—If this is the case, prayer may be all you can do. You can pray God changes his heart or that God breaks him down as his sins deserves. If he’s fully committed to his sin, the BEST thing you can do is not nag him but let him go and watch God break him. There may even be a time to say just that to him, especially if he’s not a godly man that would ever give such a thing a second thought. DANG, would that drop a horrible thought-earwig into his mind! 😂
2) He admits he’s screwed up & wants to reconcile—It took time to build up to this sin and it’ll take time for him to come back around, earn your trust back, and for you to heal. Don’t rush it. He can’t break your heart and then sliiide back in like it’s all peachy. But don’t YOU slip into sin in the process either. His sin doesn’t excuse your own, you’re not responsible for what HE does, and never forget God is KING over broken situations being made whole! God bless you as you go forward!
Such good advice for everyone looking into marriage, and especially those being tempted to get OUT!
😐… sigh 🙄 Then why are you on Reddit downvoting people?
That they do… times two!
I fully know that women can and do choose whatever they like to wear, and that the comments/opinions of guys shouldn’t affect that too much, but it’s good to have the attitude you do! We can either cause more problems where we know they exist or avoid them. And the sad truth is if a woman chooses the first, they’re more likely to attract the attention they DON’T want!
Side note, but may be helpful societally, I am all for intense and immediate penalties for rightly convicted rapists as a deterrent of that kind of behavior. And the same punishment for false accusations while we’re at it!
God created everything according to the bible, including sin, Sin exists because god in the bible says so.
No, He didn’t. Context matters. He didn’t create sin, but only the environment that makes sin possible. If space is given to allow the option where sin IS possible, so is the choice to NOT sin. We could come up with MANY things God didn’t create, based on rightly interpreted passages: iPhones, sky-scrapers, crime syndicates, etc.
I wouldn't be able to have an argument because arguments are a form of rebellion.
God’s big enough to handle your disagreements, questions, whining, etc. but it doesn’t mean you’ll bring up something that will catch Him off-guard or surprise Him. We can question without taking our VERY limited intelligence to the One with infinite knowledge with an attitude of arrogance. That’s just foolishness.
Why be given choices at all? If god wants everyone to be good and created everyone, why give them the choice to be bad?
If you don’t have a choice to be bad, neither can you be good. If there’s no option of disobedience, obedience is only programming. It ceases to be good, following right, obedience, or anything a person is responsible for. God could have made a world like that, but chose not to. He chose a world where people were made in His image, with the freedom to act as they see fit, make choices, & have real consequences FOR those choices.
I'm sorry I didn't get that initially. But god has the ability to do anything, including entertaining youth forever. Toy makers don't have the ability to entertain youth forever, which is why they have to adjust to the trends.
No problem. I like the dialogue. Well, yes and no. God can do anything that’s consistent with His revealed character. What many atheists unfortunately do is make silly arguments in an effort to trap God (something we don’t do to ourselves): “Can God make a square circle? A rock so big He can’t move it? Rape a puppy? Give all His power to ME??! Ah, see, He ISN’T all-powerful, b/c there are some things He can’t do!” He made a world we can make sense of, where we can truly grow as people as we age. If we choose not to, that’s up to us.
No, I just don't think everything in the bible is 100% true since the bible was written by people.
So was every other idea you currently think is true. And even if it was ONLY what you thought up on your own, I imagine you’d still have the sense to know there are things you don’t know, those wiser than you. You can learn from people without thinking they need to be perfect first. What the Bible asserts is that God HAS revealed Himself to us both by laws (His prescriptive Word) and stories (His descriptive proof of what happens when people do (or don’t) seek Him). Some texts are poetry or imagery and must be read as such. By example, ““Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me in the shadow of Your wings” (from Ps 17:8) doesn’t mean there’s a red or green apple in God’s eye, or that He has wings, but that God is loving & protective of those who trust in Him. Does all that make sense?
(By the way, I’m not asking if you believe this about God, though I hope you will in time. I’m only asking if what I just said makes sense to you.)
Cops cannot remove my ability to do crime, god can, which is my point. Why do you keep comparing god to humans, god (according to the bible) is above humans.
Yes, He is, and that’s my point! I’m talking about human beings b/c that’s our shared experience, whereas the two of us have radically divergent views of God. So I’m trying to point out how, apart from God, all we’ve got is our subjective feelings on a matter. We look at humans & try to decide what’s right or wrong, but we’re selfish about it. When I sin against someone, I run to God for grace I think I deserve, or at least I hope He gives me; when others sin against ME, I go to God for justice, in hopes that He judges them & vindicates my goodness! But apart from a view of God, you’re saying God CAN stop evil but He’s NOT (which is the problem of evil): If God is good, why do bad things happen?
Well, the short answer is b/c of sin; b/c we do them; b/c we hate lying when people do it to us & it affects us negatively, but we DON’T hate it when we do it to others & it doesn’t negatively affect us. But God calls BOTH of those lies ‘sin.’ Which one should He judge with death, & which one with mercy? “Death? For a lie?! Neither!” We’re shocked at the idea… but not if saw things with God’s eyes and we consider all the lies we’ve told, all the times we’ve dishonored God/our parents, all the times we’ve stolen something that didn’t belong to us (regardless of its value), gossiped about (or slandered) a person, been selfish instead of selfless, lusted, hated someone in our hearts, cheated, and so on. Every sin we give into guides our lives further and further into sin. Our guilt before builds up our entire lives; it doesn’t reset every time we think, “oops, I shouldn’t have done that—sorry!” We SHOULD BE sorry - we’ve done wrong.
Not really, I can bribe the cops to let me go, do you think I can bribe god? And cops can themselves commit crimes and cover it up, do you think god has sinned?
Sure you can, but is bribery right or wrong? How do you know? God tells us He hates those who do evil, even those who pervert justice. That’s the cops you’re talking about. They’re not escaping anything, as God will call them to account for their sins just as surely as He will you and I for our own. God has absolutely not sinned, & He faithfully judges those who do—sometimes on this earth, and other times after they’re dead. But as Creator of us all, He’s got the freedom AND the reasons for that.
Humans are not analogous to god (according to the bible) and the fact that you keep pushing very human morality and ethics to explain god proves my earlier point that the bible is not 100% correct about god.
In some ways we are (choice, responsibility, etc.), in others not (knowledge, power, etc.). I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, if my ethics & morality come from God’s revealed Word, & a firm trust in the reality OF God. I’ve been assuming you don’t, correct? I thought that was what I’ve been talking about the whole time, so please give me an example of what you mean so I don’t unintentionally keep giving you the impression my ethics are from human beings. The way you see God’s morality & ethics, then, is why you don’t think the Bible is 100% correct about God? I’d love a concrete example from the Bible so I know exactly what you’re talking about. Thanks!
SIDE NOTE: Sorry someone downvoted you above (it wasn’t me, I don’t do that)—some people can be real children when they disagree with someone.
Sometimes you need to use your mouth or hands… no man alive is meant to branch off alone and trigger that alarm. You could be hurting the woman you’re caring about—get her there first, THEN handle your business! 😂
Maybe that’s the problem… keep looking, it’s right on the tip of your tongue!
god created sin tho.
Nope.
He gave us the ability to rebel, right?
Yup. So the choice is ours. You’d have an argument if we didn’t. There’s no virtue in complaining in having no choice in the matter and THEN complaining when you’re given a choice. The problem we have isn’t with the presence or absence of choice, but the reality of that choice having we consequences we’d rather avoid while still doing whatever we want. That’s not maturity; it’s childishness.
I suppose for the same reason toy makers learned that controlling everything a toy does is a novelty that wears off with our youth.
So god is similar to a child?
The example puts God as a toy maker, not a child. I see how you could confuse the meaning.
Do you really have a choice in that case? You either do what I say or you suffer for eternity, seems very much not a choice.
As I said above, you want to do whatever you like without consequence. That’s not freedom, it’s bondage. It’s not the way that corresponds to reality. You’re like a person who can’t trust in God for the same reason you don’t want to see a cop when you’re breaking the law. It’s not because there’s something wrong with the idea of a cop, but that the reality of a cop hampers you from doing what you would like to do.
God didn’t; sin did. Our rebellion against Him, in so many ways, actually has consequences in this world. It’s created great evil that we’ve just learned to accept as a ‘normal’ part of life, when it’s not. What happens when people who pursue wealth over everything else, & they actually have the power to do it, AND they don’t believe in God… well, you’ve got people who create problems they benefit from, then sell solutions they also benefit from, and even have the wealth to benefit from the death of those affected by the problems they’ve created along the way. We could also ask, “well, why don’t God stop them?” Who should He stop? The people who sin in the ways you don’t like, or should He keep going by stopping those who sin in the ways you’re okay with, people like me, and you even?
I hope you’re starting to see the problem of sin here. The only way to end sin is to end US… ALL of us! Not just those YOU want ended, but also the ones others want ended, which might include you too. Or should God offer grace, forgiveness, hope to those who seek it, mercy to those who need it, salvation from all this pain to those who seek it?
We might as easily ask, “if God hates sin, why not just make people without the ability to sin?” I suppose for the same reason toy makers learned that controlling everything a toy does is a novelty that wears off with our youth. Perfect is what comes with Christ when He returns and the new heavens and new earth is without sin and death. A life without choice is not life at all, so we either choose truth with God or we don’t; but the consequences of that choice actually matter.
I’m glad to hear this. Don’t make a permanent decision the only solution to a temporary problem.
Think about how Thomas Edison answered a reporter’s question about how it felt to fail 1,000 times in creating a light bulb 💡— Edison replied, “I didn’t fail; the light bulb was an invention with 1,000 steps.”
Bottom line, you can either see your life as a series of failures, as pointless and meaningless misadventures, or successful navigations through all the things you DON’T want on your way to what you DO.
You wrote this in a Christianity thread so I’ll share the truth unapologetically, but hope you don’t mind: your enemy and mine is pretty pissed off right now that you didn’t take your life. He wants you dead. He wants you hopeless, giving up, and seeing no point to anything in this life. But the God who created you has not only revealed the truth to you also chosen to grow you and me through the difficulties we face—not so we would be without hope, but so we would see our only hope is in Him. You may have had a harder journey than most, but that will only make His work in you all the more amazing - don’t give up before you get there!
- Treat others how you want to be treated—This goes for your spouse, kids, parents, in-laws, & everyone you meet. Change in this area, at least at first, involves not only giving others the love & respect you want from them but ALSO honestly asking yourself if you want others to be the arrogant, nagging, insulting, angry, shaming, unforgiving, vengeful wretch you’ve been to them. If the answer is no, then YOU change first. We cannot expect others to act the way they should while excusing ourselves from acting the way we should, even if we feel justified in our response to them. Remember, they likely feel justified in their treatment of you as well. So who will be mature first? PROBLEM: When you’re in a relationship where you ‘feel’ like you’re the one who’s constantly making the changes, growth, concessions for peace, & learning how to better yourself, this step can feel like TORTURE! Resist the urge to say, “well, I’ll respect/love him/her when he/she doesn’t something deserving of respect/love!” Ouch! Can you see the subtle, cancerous game of comparison that’s crept into your marriage? And you can BET on how you’ve already judged the best of yourself against the worst of them!
- Leadership is about responsibilities, not rights—You may not like it, but the Bible WILL root out our sinful desires & show them for what they are. We like being in charge, but want to pass the blame if things go wrong. We like being needed, but not when we’re tired or feeling lazy. We want to be seen as strong, but not when we’re feeling weak or overwhelmed. We want what we want, but not when we don’t want it; & we want people to intuitively know which is which without us having to tell them. We can be walking contradictions, both seeing the problem & having no idea how to solve it! The role of family leadership has been given to the husband; of church leadership to men. Only a foolish person sees this in terms of rights (“I’m in charge, so you listen to me!”) rather than responsibility (“I’m going to be held accountable by God!”). PROBLEM: It’s no surprise that men who understand the responsibility want to give it up, & women who don’t, want to take it over for their own reasons. Either way, it’s a rejection of God’s Word, whether b/c of sin or a misunderstanding of its purpose as a role (I won’t presume to say why they think their reasons justify the rejection of God’s Word). Considering the points above, this view of leadership doesn’t mean one rules foolishly over their domain, nor does it mean that weak leadership now demands a coup against them—both are evil & incredibly destructive to everyone involved! A good leader shoulders the responsibilities of his role & accepts the failures of his team/family as a learning experience in order to improve. A dictatorial leader harms those they’re supposed to lead, usually for their own benefit, & blames the negative results on those they abuse (as though they didn’t follow well enough).
The problem with ALL of this is that this is guidance for the Christ-centered individual, family, church, and people, and is WHOLLY inadequate for the leadership of a sinful, godless people who are led by someone just like them. But the Christian is held to a higher standard, to trust in Christ as their head, over all rule and authority. To respond to a comment that “two heads are better than one,” the category error must be addressed. That statement is only true in the area of counsel, NOT in leadership. In every area, there is only ONE leader where the “buck stops” & the responsibility is shouldered. Anything with two heads is a monster. Christ is THE head of all creation and His Church, the husband is THE head of His family, and the boss is THE head of the company.
Christ needs no help or counsel, but the rest of us do. We fail collectively if we ignore this counsel from God’s Word & the wise counsel of those around us. As Satan perverts every good gift of God, so the sin that motivates us will survive and thrive in the dark… if we let it. Only by prayerful submission to God and His Word (both living and written) can we hope to live at peace with each other, valuing each person equally in their respective role.
As you’re in a Christian marriage subreddit, I’m going to talk about the ideal here, not the multifaceted deviations that have arisen from, & been necessitated by, many of the problems we’ve collectively created:
- You’re a team—Every team wisely looks to learn of the strengths & weaknesses they possess to do the best they possibly can. This requires truth, personal integrity, & honesty with your teammates. A marriage is the same. You have different strengths & abilities your spouse will have less of, & that’s GOOD! They should lead in that area, & your job is to learn from them as they do. Of course, it’s also okay to just let them serve & not care, but that may make things more difficult for you if (God forbid) something happens to them & it’s now up to you. PROBLEM: If you act like enemies, you’ll compete, fight to be heard, downplay each other’s contributions, even be insulting to each other. This crap is sinful & will kill your marriage!
- You’re both sinful—I put this early b/c a result of the fall is wo/men think the other person has things better & they’re just fighting to keep up (talk honestly about this some time, & you’ll see what I’m saying). Your “family of origin” is an unavoidable part of your “two becoming one” reality as a husband & wife. This is both positive AND negative, b/c you both have something you’d do well to learn from the other AND baggage/trauma that’s made you who you are, how you act, how you respond to pressure, & why certain things make you feel the way you do. It’s normal to YOU, but that doesn’t make it normal to everyone (or even right & good). The “unchristian” way to see this is we daily learn more about ourselves so we can be more effective today; the godly way to see this is that YOUR sin, if left untreated or dealt with, can destroy your marriage, your kids, & yourself. So don’t make excuses for yourself when you’re confronted by your sin (b/c it “hurts your feelings/self-worth”) as that behavior WILL begin to subtly “twists your thoughts.” Deal with it openly. Your spouse & kids will thank you! PROBLEM: If you don’t admit YOUR sin, you won’t even notice the remarkable tendency in your marriage for your spouse to ALWAYS be the one causing the problems. You’ll think they are always making you & the kids the victims of their pride, selfishness, ‘gaslighting,’ etc. & completely miss how your own pride, selfishness, & gaslighting is either starting or contributing to the problem. And once that attitude takes root, it’s VERY hard to turn around.
- Be willing to change—A very wise definition of ‘smart’ is not the amount of things you know but your ability to change course to align with new things you learn. Babies struggling to use a fork & knife are Instagram-worthy levels of cuteness; but teenagers with the same struggle indicates a problem, right? Same thing in your marriage. Learn from each other in your marriage, or you will quickly become a fool. You won’t think you’re a fool, & that’s what makes it so dangerous! If you’re still growing (as a person, spouse, parent, grandparent, employee, boss, servant of Christ, etc.), you’re still learning, teachable, & so willing to change to be better tomorrow than you are today. PROBLEM: If you don’t think you need to change, or think everything about you needs to change, you’re wrong. This applies to things we do AND the ways we think & talk as well. Keep trying. Keep growing. Your family doesn’t need the person you were when you got married—that person was a clueless idiot! 🤣 They need the maturing, confident even if they’re struggling, wo/man after God’s own heart, who is learning from God & those around them for the benefit of ALL.
- You are there to serve—You’re not a Count, or a Princess (unless you ARE those things, in which case you can still use the principles!), so don’t treat those around you like the extras in the movie about your life. Look for ways to lift up those on your team so you ALL succeed. Your spouse/kids/neighbors/churches need you. Sometimes serving looks like hard work. Other times it looks like prayer as you’re fighting back the urge to cut a fool! You can either make your life harder for you & those around you or easier. As has been said before, this doesn’t mean thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. PROBLEM: When either spouse begins to act like the main character, that “Karen/Carl” is insufferable to the rest of us. Truth is, that child needs a spanking! But when those children are hiding in an adult body, you can bet that some trauma or selfishness needs to be dealt with. They are harming themselves AND others by being childish. They want to be served, obeyed, submitted to, & in charge… and they’re happy to let you know that’s what they expect!
A phrase I’ve heard is, “we’re not human beings having a spiritual experience, we’re spiritual beings having a human experience.” Like what you wrote… well, that’s an opinion. As far as this Christian thread goes, we should be looking to how the Word defines life, which is given by the breath of God and ends when that breath is taken back. Whether you call it the spirit, soul, person, or some other term, it’s given by God at a time only He knows. It’s not just the sperm, or just the egg, but when they become one.
The REAL mind-freak is trying to make a case for the stage of development at which the developing life becomes a life, a human, and thus worthy of protection. I’ve yet to hear a single pro-choice argument that doesn’t ALSO allow for the murder of a human being outside the womb whose sustainability has become too difficult for the caregivers.
Oh, no doubt! I should be clear: I’m more than a punch the clock, nominal, average Christian, having dedicated the whole of my life to following Christ and teaching others to do the same. And the Word doesn’t give us the answers to these metaphysical questions of our ontological beginnings, beyond our being fully who we are already when still in the womb.
I just choose, personally, to say without apology what God’s Word says clearly and leave the nuance and minutiae up to His good graces!
A… downvote? On that?? ⬆️ Wow… 🫠🤭
Using God’s name lightly (as a curse or exclamation) is not the only way we can take God’s name/nature/etc. in vain. We can also do it by trying to invoke God’s name to lend power to our words, beliefs, or opinions (especially when they’re not strong enough on their own). Each of God’s laws is deeper than we ever thought, as Jesus showed it begins not in our actions but the very thoughts those actions come from!
But the law was not given so we could make ourselves perfect—we have already failed at that! The law was given so we would know our sin, the penalties for breaking God’s laws, and so go to Him in humility to seek His mercy. In Jesus, we HAVE that mercy, not to be saved by our works or obedience but by His grace through faith in what JESUS did. By all means, try to leave behind your sins whenever the Spirit awakens you to them, but only BECAUSE you’re saved through Christ, not in order to be saved.
And personally, I like to say “Jiminy Christmas” when I’m exasperated or frustrated and “for the love of Pete” at random times. It’s not so much about the words as it is working on your heart with the Word so that what comes out of you is what the Spirit of God has replaced the evil with in you.
:) Okay. When I think of robes on people outside, I picture mental patients in bath robes, or the Walmart shopper that’s just given up! 😂
Now THAT’S how you provide sources! 👍🏼 I appreciate the response, but I also should be clear as to why I asked the question: Apart from knowledge none of us have, we’re left to talk back and forth about what we think based on this or that. I don’t think we have any concrete idea about the soul that can be proven in the first place. We can do anything from denying the existence of the soul to saying we’re all parts of a singular, unified soul, but it’s only conjecture based on our beliefs.
Before I asked for sources, I chuckled at the response, which is confident but, ultimately, without basis/proof.
I don’t know of anyone who wears a “robe” and “head scarf” outside who’s not Muslim, though perhaps the Orthodox, Catholics, or Jews might fit that bill… but they’re not called robes. That’s why I asked.
STOP TAZING HIM—STOP TAZING HIM!!
Bro is out cold 💀
funny