www.barrons.com/news/france-deploys-army-bans-tiktok-in-riot-hit-new-caledonia-pm-3ba2555f
Interesting, why are they rioting? Why ban TikTok in particular?
It's a very complicated story but I'll try to summarize.
New Caledonia has a deep colonial background. In 1853, France seized the territory, marginalized indigenous Kanak people (who became a minority) and used it as a penal and settlement colony. This policy reached a peak in the 1910s-20s and then was gradually reversed until 1946 when Kanaks gained full citizenship. More recently, policies have been implemented to reduce inequalities (like affirmative action which is a big no-no in the rest of France) but this colonial legacy still persists. This is also a very strategic territory economically, with between 10 and 30% of global nickel resources.
1980s : Violence erupts between pro-independence Kanaks and the rest of the population, New Caledonia is in a state of quasi-civil war.
1988 : Prime minister Michel Rocard reaches an agreement with pro- and anti-independence parties that sets up a path to decolonization. He promises a referendum and special local institutions with restricted voting rights in order to calm things down (basically, you can't vote if you moved after 1994). This agreement is further completed in 1998 by prime minister Lionel Jospin.
2018-2020 : Two independence referendums are organized exactly as planned by Rocard and Jospin. The results are closer than expected, with the independence camp losing 56-44 in 2018 but only 53-47 in 2020. The momentum seems to be on their side.
2021 : A third and last referendum is organized (again, as was planned since 1998) but it's much more controversial. Macron breaks with the tradition of prime ministers handling the issue (which was seen as a sign of impartiality) by putting clearly loyalist people in charge. Kanaks are asking to delay it by a few months in order to have mourning rituals for victims of covid 19, but Macron refuses because he sees that as a pretense to gain some time before their third and last defeat. They then decide to boycott the vote so remain reaches 96%, with a turnout of only 44% (vs more than 80% the first two times). Frustration grows among Kanaks, loyalists estimate that there's now a clear mandate for remain.
2024 : A new law is introduced by Macron's party, written by a strongly loyalist MP, that gives voting rights in local elections to people who didn't have them after 1988 and 1998 agreements. No negociations are organized with Kanak representatives so this is seen as a power grab. Moderate parties who dominated the political scene since the 1980s and currently favor an agreement are being overtaken by more radical actors who accuse the other camp of denying their rights (voting rights for recent inhabitants in the case of loyalists, self-determination rights in the case of Kanaks). Violence thus erupts with foreign actors (from China and Azerbaijan mainly) fueling the independence camp on social media. The rate of weapon ownership is also very high (almost US-level) so the situation is really worrying. The most pessimistic outcome would be a return to the 1980s again.
I think you’re largely correct other than the percentage of nickel resources. According to the Canadian Government they have the fourth most confirmed reserves, but no where near one third of global nickel.
Edit: adding the link. https://natural-resources.canada.ca/our-natural-resources/minerals-mining/mining-data-statistics-and-analysis/minerals-metals-facts/nickel-facts/20519
Thank you, I read this number a while ago so I wrote it without bothering to check. Actually, Wikipedia mentions both 10% and 30% of global reserves with reliable sources, so I don't really know which number is correct.
Still, I think the point stands about the importance of the sector for the local economy.
While important, it seems close to the end as they arent competitive.
people who didn't have them after 1988 and 1998 agreements
Thanks so much for your explanation! You mentioned this being seen as a power grab, but I wondered if you'd be able to expand on that. 1998 was a long time ago, people born then would have been working adults able to vote ages ago. The original law makes sense for the time but... it seems if someone's lived there for 25 years they're not just around to artificially flood a vote right?
You had to have lived there for 10 years in 1998 to get voting rights. So some people who arrived in 1989 and have lived there for 35 years still do not have the right to vote.
The law change would give such people the right to vote.
Why is that a bad thing? In my country you get citizenship with voting rights after you have lived here 5 years.
It's a French territory, they're all French citizens already.
The person mentioned that they lived there for 35 yrs. That’s much more than 5? It’s essentially freezing voting rights in time
It's worse, those people already have french citizenship, sometimes form birth.
The change of the law is to give them the right to vote because France is supposed to be a democracy. And they're still keeping the "lived there for 10 years" condition.
It's french citizen needing to own the right to vote in a french territory. Not very democratic.
It's all because a minority of native separatists want to burn it all, scare people away, and have the land for themselves thinking they would live in luxury if they were kings of the land.
It's probably exacerbated by geopolitical titans in the background, probably China who tries to take control over all of south east Asia and would have an interested in a weakened New Caledonia.
that second to last paragraph is insanity hyper contradictory
I think you're right ! But people born in New Caledonia since 1994 already have the right to vote ! At least provided their parents also do. The problem lies with people who settled there since. Actually, even moderate independentists support their inclusion.
I think the power grab accusation comes from the fact that the extension of voting rights to those overwhelmingly loyalist people is objectively a blow to the independentist side, so you could expect signs of good faith from Paris that this is not an attempt at disenfranchising Kanaks.
However, Macron has shifted in 2020 from a careful approach to a more law and order, pro-remain one, arguably in an attempt to counter Le Pen's rising popularity among loyalists. He has put the Interior minister (managing the police so security issues) in charge instead of the prime minister who has broader responsabilities (like education, economy etc.). One of his junior ministers from NC has threatened to spark violence if the loyalist side didn't have its way on voting rights. The draft bill currently in the process of being adopted has been written by one of the most radical loyalist MPs, without any negociations with the independentist side.
So you have all signs pointing toward what Kanaks are fearing, e.g. Paris breaking its neutrality and willing to keep NC French at all costs.
I think with Europe inching towards war with Russia, there's not going to be tolerance for decolonization for the time being. The last thing any country will want to do right now is lose resources, wealth, territory, or draftable people.
Macron already went full douche move when he circumvented the normal voting process for that retirement or pension law awhile back. The dude really doesn't give a shit about looking like a good person anymore, he's completely on lock to do whatever he is going to do and anyone who disagrees can get fucked.
It’s not even Russia. It’s China. The west is making the Indo-Pacific a huge priority moving forward. Despite people saying drones have made navies pointless bc of Russias navy, that’s false because of the Pacific Ocean. You can’t use land based drones for naval warfare in the middle of a vast ocean. So this means having as many island bases as possible is a huge deal. Even islands not near China are a big deal because they can be used as safe logistics hubs.
Add in the resources factor too and I just don’t see France giving up this colony this decade or any time soon. Even if they wanted to, I could see allied nations pressuring them not to for strategic reasons. Such as, France won’t sell that nickel to enemies in wartime but an independent NC in theory could.
Thank you for this brief but very clear summary of the situation. Wish I could upvote you twice.
What they are not saying however is that from 1988, only to accommodate kanaks' demands, the right to vote has been frozen. That means people who did not have the right to vote then still haven't acquired it.
Now, with the there referendums done, Kanaks fear they will become a minority. This doesn't mean people who will earn the right to vote, having living there for more than 40 years, will agree with everything from other camps nor disagree with Kanaks. But Kanaks' demands can backfire as they have actively prevented people from speaking up, have actively fought them and painted them as devils.
And when I write Kanaks, I mean the political party here only, as Kanaks are not a monolith and people hold very different views (Kanaks living in the metropolitan area usually are against independence).
What they didn't say either, was that NC is autonomous with their laws: they have a completely different set of laws, ways of voting laws, different school programs, and even has a king. So, independentists just want to be able to sell this land to someone else (Azerbaïdjan in this case).
Why do they want to sell it to Azerbaidjan? How are NC and Azerbaidjan even linked?
Apparently, there is a dispute for a territory between Armenia and Azerbaijan and France is supporting Armenia. Turkey is supporting Azerbaijan and allied with Russia. These small lands everywhere are what makes the French army powerful and France is the most powerful military country of the EU so it’s to target the EU and make it weaker.
I'm a bit biased toward the independence camp though so maybe there are some elements I'm missing. A look at my comment history should tell you that r/france didn't really like my takes on the topic lol
Oh yeah, I really wonder why French people did not like your take...
Let me get this straight. You, a French citizen, can have lived in NC (and therefore, in France) for 20+ years, and still not get the right to vote in local elections.
Can you imagine the same situation in metropolitan France, only letting people that have been here before a certain date vote ? That would righteously be called as discriminating and anti-democratic.
Non-Kanaks of NC are entitled to the same rights as any other French citizen. Kanaks are obviously entitled to their rights as well, but should not be placed above the Law or any other citizens.
Despite having had 2 generations worth of voters by now, a discriminating voting rule, and not 1, not 2, but 3 (!) referendums on the matter, independentists still got beaten.
They can go and pound sand.
From my POV, your comment is fair and informative. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Just fun fact about these nickel reserves, got a bit away from politics. Biologically NC is really unique..
Some of NC is covered by ultramafic soils. NC has also been isolated from the rest of oceania for some time encouraging high degree of endemism (species you find no where else) and notably botanical relict (taxa of a past time, once widespread now limited to a small area) species of which the best examples is Amborella trichopoda, the earliest diverging flowering plants (angiosperm) and a look how the first flowering plants would have lived. Oc only member of the Amborellales. Proud to see it alive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amborella every person with only a fleeting interest in plants should know this. Its as weird as Ginkos are too Gymnosperms.
High degrer of nickel heavy metal and longterm isolation gives you a higj degree of endemism. as such its a biodoversity hotspot https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073371 and has some fucking weird stuff like the nickel tree https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnandra_acuminata which has up to 25 PERCENT of its sap as nickel citrate.
Looking at paleogeograph it was once much bigger. Here is a nice vid talking about why New Caledonia, especially looking at deep time is such a weird place https://youtu.be/Qa6W9Y_zkW8?si=k0Dmn7bGmWqZtQzi and https://youtu.be/Y9dkYTIxCWA?si=IRWcZrA_NqqNpDYh mainly talking about fossil biota. Its part of a now submerged continent called new zealandia and acts as a sorta time capsule. Read more https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2607381/
2 main ecoregions are dry forest (heavily reduced) and tropical monaten forest due to orographic preicipation or lack thereof - theres a mountain chain in the middle.
Thats the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Am not as knowleadgle about endemic fauna but if you want more https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity_of_New_Caledonia
This is also a very strategic territory economically, with a third of global nickel resources.
I don't understand, can't the French just use dimes instead?
Edit: Alternate joke, "Then let them use dimes..."
it also doesn't have a "third of global nickel resources". Furthermore, nickel isnt that great to extract today
Violence thus erupts with foreign actors (from China and Azerbaijan mainly) fueling the independence camp on social media.
Is there any evidence of the foreign interference part? I've been monitoring news feed closely (former NC resident, still have family there) and so far haven't heard it mentioned.
Azerbaijan signed a memorandum with the local independentist government and they have tried everything they could to discredit France since the war with Armenia, so their involvement is pretty much certain. Gérald Darmanin talked about it a few months ago (do we trust Darmanin though ?)
As for China I've read about it but seen no direct evidence so maybe I'm wrong
Did you checked Tiktok, by using a vpn pretending you are there ?
Tiktok is currently banned via 4G networks not wifi. Reason : tiktok is heavily used by the terrorists to coordinate actions, and most of these guys only have access to 4G
I think China is assumed more than proven. If France/EU left NC to be on its own, it would be an economic disaster which China could exploit for profit and extend their hold on the Pacific.
I assume Australia would also try to exploit it, like they do Timor-Leste.
Australia, New Zealand and China are kinda battling for influence in various pacific island nation, so it would be rather surprising if China was NOT involved in this.
Australia and NZ have little reason to get involved as yet, but that could certainly change if France were to lose control.
Definitively!
And now Russian has paid to generate unrest so that the French don't have full strategic focus on ukraine and Russia
Because tik tok is a Trojan horse. China bans shit all time that could influence their population, but when someone wants to do it to China, it's somehow a problem
The people of New Caledonia need to realise that independence is a massive gamble. Very few developing countries have become USA-style success stories after decolonisation - in all likelihood, their choice is only between remaining a French colony, which does confer significant benefits including a fair Western legal system and social welfare subsidised by France that will be distributed even at a net loss to the island, or becoming a de-facto Chinese colony instead, in which case all bets are off.
The island voted 3 times against independence.
In 2018 at that. And then another in 2020. And another in 2021.
So this is a psyops.
The 2021 vote was boycotted, according to Kanak independence groups, due to Kanak cultural traditions around mourning periods and the ongoing pandemic, prior votes both rejected independence but saw an increase in independence sentiment between the two.
Loyalist groups instead argue the election was boycotted because the independence forces were going to lose, and thus sought to delegitimise it.
If the first is true, poor form on France, if the second is true, poor form on behalf of the independence forces.
Its not some Russian psyop, its an ongoing saga that been going since the 1980s.
The latest rioting is to do with a change to the law that would allow recent migrants (those who have lived on the island for 10 years) to the island to vote in the elections, which would dilute the voting powers of indigenous Kanaks significantly
Edit: Adjusted to make the breakdown a bit more balanced.
Edit 2: removed French migrants, it could theoretically be any migrants. Also added in the 10 year requirement to vote timeframe. As a commenter mentioned, its debateable as to whether that counts as recent or not.
It's sadly a common tactic by losing sides in referendums to boycott them to delegitimatize them, puerto rico is a good example of this, where the independence side boycott the vote a few times because if they didn't it'd show the majority of the people want to be a state, but by boycotting it the low turnout means the result of the vote can be ignored.
It was not a mere boycott though. They hoped to delay it so old white people with the right to vote for it would die of covid while more young natives would reach the voting age.
And they continue to suffer as they tend become more of a place that rich people exploit the crap out of.
You ever been there mate? It's not like there are a lot of natural resources there. Apart from tourism, they don't have a lot going for them. French (generous) healthcare system itself is enough to warrant not going independent
They boycotted the third referendum because they knew they would likely lose it, and that it would mean the end of their independence project.
According to those in favour of staying with France thats true, I'll edit my comment above to reflect both positions.
ok... so why boycott it if u know ur gonna win tho?! this is funny.
The main reason for the riots is the fact that they would allow long term immigrants the acces to vote. Which is quite wild, because if these people would move to ANY other country in the world, live and contribute there for 10 years they would get acces to vote.
Not necessarily true, its quite possible to live in a country for a decade and not be able to vote. At least in my country's case, i have a friend who has been here for over a decade, and only just last year was granted permanent residency, and still has to wait longer to go for citizenship, which means he still cant vote. I've heard Japan is particularly reluctant to grant foreigners citizenship as another example.
Becoming a citizen,to my understanding is usually a pretty lengthy process in most countries, so immigrants often do spend quite a few years before they can go for citizenship, and they usually have to jump through a fair few hoops to do it.
For Kanaks, i think they'd also argue that the national government of the US or Australia or whoever gets to decide who to grant citizenship status to (and thus voting rights) but because they're a subject of France, they dont really get a say in this process.
Yep but seriously in this case it's very complex.
They have voted 3 time to remain a French region.
They receive a lot of financial aid from the metropol , they have an UE passport , freedom of mouvement in the UE.
But they put a law who said that nobody who live in the island after 1998 would have the right to vote.
France don't work like that , all french citizen are equal , everywhere.
The difference with your exemple is that we are talking about french citizen moving to a french region.
It's a bit like if Texas decided that only native from Texas should have the right to vote , if someone move from California , he would never have the right to vote , because he is a californian.
As it stands, if you aren't a descendant of a citizen registered on voting rolls back in 1989 then you can't vote. There are people right now who are french, were born in new caledonia, never left, yet aren't allowed to vote. There are also people who are Kanaks but weren't registered back then and who aren't allowed to vote either.
Some citizens have no voice in electing their local representatives despite living in a part of their own country. The proportion of people excluded from voted is only increasing with time too : in 1999, 8000 were excluded ; in 2009, 18000 were excluded and in 2023 42000 were excluded. That number currently represents 15% of the citizens living on the island.
It's a problem. It was a way to preserve the voting power of the kanaks if they wanted to engage in an independence process but the population rejected independence three times through referundums in the last 10 years. At some point, if you decide that you want to be french you have to acknowledge that other french citizens are your equals and should have the same rights. That's kinda the founding principle of the country.
The difference here is that those people have the French citizenship, yet are not given voting rights. Some people have lived there for 35 years while being born french and still have not been given those voting rights.
Yeah no, the boycot was due to independentists expecting to lose the third referendum.
Second vote having more doesn't mean they want independence. You've already stated you want to stay. How many times will you go vote on what you believe to be a settled issue? Meanwhile those saying leave remain energized, with more and more foreign influence driving it. It doesn't mean more people are in favor of leaving. And they lost.
The latest rioting is to do with a change to the law that would allow recent French migrants to the island to vote in the elections, which would dilute the voting powers of indigenous Kanaks significantly
This I know. But you seem to misunderstand what a psyops is for: you don't create from zero a problem to exploit, you pick the embers of one already existing, pour gasoline, and lit the fire as much as you can.
And you don't have to be an expert in geopolitics to know who is whispering in the ear of the FLNKS, amirite?
I mean sure, using existing ethnic tensions is a classic playbook. Though i would note FLNKS has been publicly condemning the rioting and telling people to go home.
But there's no evidence of anyone outside of France being behind this and i don't want to build a myth (like has been built with the CIA) that Russia is always behind any crisis that affects its enemies. It gives the FSB more credit than they deserve.
But the Russians have a track record here and every incentive since France is the only country threatening to send troops to Ukraine. I don't think psyops is a stretch at all.
EDIT: I should add that I have no idea how effective it would be, only that it would probably be attempted.
Russia has been demolishing France in Africa with this very tactic.
Being some place for 10 years is not recent. It's all about race. They want all the benefits without all the white people voting.
vote was boycotted
You'd think at this point people would realize that "We choose to boycott the referendum" generally means "We're pretty sure we'll lose so we're calling for a boycott so we can claim we would have won had we not boycotted it".
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Its hardly an ethnostate. Kanak concern seems to be more that France is going to send in more and more French migrants until they're even smaller minority in their homeland.
Whether or not thats fair i think cuts to the core of the legacies of European imperialism and i don't pretend to be enough of an expert to make blanket statements about whats right or wrong here.
Edit: i got the demographics wrong originally, its 40% Kanak, 24% French, and then a host of other identities, which still, is hardly an ethnostate.
Such vote doesn't happen out of nowhere on short notice. The 30th of june 2021, the third referendum date was publicly announced to be 12th of december 2021. 165 days apart. More than 5 months.
When did they ask for the vote to be delayed? 53 days before the vote, on the 20th of october 2021.
For reference, the second referendum was announced the 24th of june 2020, with the date set for the 4th october 2020. 102 days apart. The first was announced on the 6th of june 2018, for the 4th of october 2018. 133 days apart.
The delay for the 3rd vote was the most generous of them all.
Opinion: the separatists wanted to delay the vote so old white people would die of covid and younger natives would be old enough to vote and tilt the vote in their favor as "newly" arrived white people were unable to vote. ("newly" being "less than 30y" at this point).
Eh, they could end up close to Australia/NZ much like many of the Pacific nations.
Those gained independence when China was still Maoist and isolationist, and were mostly British colonies making them part of that political sphere by default.
Sure but Australia and NZ are currently VERY active in the region trying to counter Chinese influence. Lots of money, cultural exports and diplomatic efforts flowing into the region.
Fair point, but are they succeeding? Maybe I need to read up more on this, but I only heard about this once and it was from somebody in Australia complaining that not enough was being done to counter China.
That was true about 2-3 years ago but there has been a massive panic in the region after the Solomon islands signed a deal with China for police support. As a result Aus/NZ are basically splashing cash everywhere and signing lots of bilateral deals.
The Aussie PM just hiked the Kokoda track with the PNG PM which is pretty symbolic, and theres a big effort to include Pacific sporting teams in Aus/NZ competitions - using soft power to tie them together.
I am Aussie and a few people were annoyed about NRL maybe getting a island team but like I think it’s a fantastic soft power move.
Their population already watches NRL like crazy and if we can align their population through sport their population should keep them on our side.
Lol. Australia allows Chinese abductions on its soil.
Australia loves Chinese money too much to stand up to them.
They are not really, Australia is ripping off Timor on gas for the benefit of multinationals, throwing countries like PNG scraps considering their keystone strategic location and letting countries like Kiribati go underwater. All these countries should and probably will choose China, and Australia will really regret how they have treated their neighbourhood. Australia should have been building an Asia-Pacific Union with NZ for the last 40 years but big brother US probably put a stop to any ideas of that - they like their allies weak and dependent.
Australia has more resources than almost any other country you could name, it should be an independent regional powerhouse and economic titan.
With the luxury items being built there, it is an open-ended decision for France. Since the 1990s, a lot has changed on New Caledonia. They went from a chemical manufacturing prison colony, to a vacation getaway hosting a FIFA paid for stadium. The harbors boast yachts & mega yachts over the course of a year. The SMARTEST decision for France would be to attempt a conversion to ANZAC. To organically evolve welcomes Russia and Chinese agents and control.
They’d probably end up more like a Pacific Island country than Australia or NZ.
Is there any evidence the new government would rush to become a Chinese colony? Or just fearmongering?
Also,
Colonial France took control of New Caledonia in 1853. White settlement followed and the indigenous Kanak people were longtime victims of harsh segregation policies. Many indigenous inhabitants continue to live with high rates of poverty and high unemployment to this day.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/15/asia/new-caledonia-violence-france-vote-intl-hnk/index.html
Clearly whatever benefit the French distribute, it isn't a lot.
Thank you for proving all this “self-determination” talk is inconsistent.
Maybe so, but the reason it's banned in this case has nothing to do with China, it just happens to be the main platform rioters use to coordinate.
They figured out how to recommend videos that make people stupider, works great in the US.
I mean, sure, China bans shit all the time. But they're an oppressive totalitarian dictatorship, famous for crushing all dissent with ruthless violence. We consider lots of things to be wrong even though "China does it": concentration camps, mass surveillance, violent repression, social credit scores.
You can make a case for banning TikTok on the merits, but "China does it!" is, if anything, a counterargument.
I mean, sure, China bans shit all the time. But they're an oppressive totalitarian dictatorship, famous for crushing all dissent with ruthless violence.
That's a bit like saying "Russia shoots people all the time, but they're a ruthless brutal warmongering terrorist state, that doesn't mean Ukraine should take up arms and defend themselves."
The fact is that Russia and China have declared cyberwar on The West. It's a damn shame we have to build these ugly walls, but they've made this a not very nice neighbourhood anymore, and they will continue to do so until they are defeated.
Unfortunately, it gives them a strategic geopolitical advantage that we have no way to counteract. It’s essentially an influence arms race.
Motherfuckers never played Civ and tried to stop a Cultural victory. War comes in many forms. TikTok could really be compared to the Opium Wars, which I know someone is going to be "stop being hyperbolic"...but I'm not.
yep, tiktok wasn't even ever launched in china. it was made for foreign markets only, and the reason they are refusing to sell it to a US company is that it does not make money. china runs it at a loss.
Where's the Trade Reform Act when we need it?
The incident leads to the swift passage of a law allowing the U.S. to mirror trade practices of the countries from which it imports goods, cutting off the American export markets upon which the Japanese economy depends.
Bro, it goes even deeper than that. Within China, TikTok isn't even available. The parent company of TikTok (Byte Dance) has another app called Doujin, which is exactly like TikTok but designed for the domestic market. Content on Doujin is tightly regulated by the Chinese government to push Chinese approved narratives. Furthermore, users under 18 limited to 1 hour a day on the app.
Shit, China knows TikTok is poison. Its their information warfare platform, data miner, and ad revenue cash cow all in one. TikTok is to left wingers what Twitter is to right wingers, a tool for foreign governments to create partisan political discord and undermine Western democracies.
Supermarkets and car dealerships were looted and vehicles and businesses were burned.[10][11] Areas affected include Nouméa and the neighbouring towns of Dumbea and Le Mont-Dore.[12] Authorities imposed a curfew and public gatherings were banned for two days.[13][14] The French Minister of the Interior Gérald Darmanin announced that police reinforcements were being sent to the island.[15] Thirty-six protesters were arrested.[16] Clashes erupted between independentists and loyalists who want to remain part of France.[17] Three Kanak protestors were killed during a drive-by shooting, while a gendarme was killed in an ambush.[18][19] Prime Minister of France Gabriel Attal issued a ban on Tiktok in response.[20]
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The French law that just passed (and is being protested) gives French residents who have lived in the territory for ten years voting rights. Before this law, only Kanaks and those living in New Caledonia prior to 1998 were able to vote.
Not new immigrants. French nationals who have lived in New Caledonia for at least 10 years.
New Caledonia is French. 1 in 5 people living in New Caledonia don't have the right to vote because French nationals, despite being French, don't currently qualify unless they're born in New Caledonia, which is plainly not a representative system.
10 years is hardly "new immigrants" - it's comparable to naturalization laws in quite a few countries
Ten years residents… the way independents made it sound was more like a Russian occupation “independence vote” with lots of recently imported voters.
If they're citizens, then France is right. Here in Quebec we had our own independence votes and in the most recent one our premier tried to blame its failure on the "ethnic vote," as if only people of French descent should have a voice. He was rightly excoriated for that.
Tiktok is the dominant social media platform in the age group that is protesting/rioting.
Specifically, what tiktok videos in particular were the issue in inciting riots there?
its just the best at exploiting people with mass disinfo. the ccp had to ban it on their own terms because it was too good.
When a government bans Twitter and social media during a mass protest people here complain that the government is repressive. But when a Western country bans TikTok, people find a reason to justify it by saying that China is bad.
Yes, China is bad and can't be trusted, but is TikTok is operating differently from Twitter during a mass protest?
The CCP always had the policy of having a separate social media which they have complete control over. It's why Twitter and Facebook aren't available in China; not because they spread mass disinformation.
its just the best at exploiting people with mass disinfo
than Facebook? not in a million years lol, it's basically an open forum in comparison
They're rioting because France is voting to give more people the right to vote there. Currently, only people who lived there since 1988 or people born from people who lived there since 1988 have the right to vote.
To make it fairer since it's been a quarter of a century now, France is voting so people get the right to vote as long as it's been 10y they live there or people born there.
It upsets the native separatists because it means more white people will have the right to vote. They rather burn the city than give white people who live there the right to vote.
They already failed 3 votes for independence though, losing even with many white people unable to vote there, so it's safe to say the majority doesn't want independence.
Same reason twitter got banned during Arab Spring.
Louis Le Franc
Nothing to add other than this is possibly the most French name I have ever read.
Well, he could have had the first name François...
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For some background, there have been ongoing tensions in New Caledonia since the end of an insurgency in the 1980s. To end the violence, an agreement between France and largely indigenous Kanak pro-indepence groups was made that a series of referendums would be held to determine the future status of the island.
Three votes were held in 2018, 2020, and 2021, all returned defeats for independence, but the 2021 vote was particularly contentious due to it being boycotted by pro-independence forces.
The 2021 vote was boycotted, according to Kanak independence groups, due to Kanak cultural traditions around mourning periods and the ongoing pandemic. The prior votes both rejected independence but saw an increase in independence support between 2018 and 2020.
Loyalist groups instead argue the election was boycotted because the independence forces were going to lose, and thus sought to delegitimise the votes outcome.
The latest rioting is to do with a change to the law that would allow recent migrants (those who have lived on the island for 10 years) to the island to vote in the elections, which would dilute the voting powers of indigenous Kanaks significantly.
Some pro-independence Kanaks see this as a move to marginalise their power within their homeland. France for its parts says its doing it to make the system in New Caledonia more democratic (both positions can be true in this case i think).
Its also important to note,in terms of the voting, that indigenous Kanaks on the whole back independence, while French descended migrants tend to back staying with France.
The islands economy is largely dependent on nickle mining, with it hosting one of the worlds largest nickle mines, but an economic downturn in nickle mining has led to economic stress being placed on the island, which has probably further exacerbated tensions.
For more reading:
Edit: got the polulation mix very wrong, its 40% kanak, 24% French, and then a mix of a host of other identities.
I grew up there and still have family in the country, can confirm your summary is correct.
I'll add that for now it's unclear how much of the rioting is organized vs just bands of delinquents just taking the opportunity to lash out, (maybe encouraged by some political parties). Most perpetrators seem to be between 15 and 25 and there's been a lot of looting and senseless property destruction. Countless supermarkets and businesses have been burned to the ground, and public utilities such as water pipes destroyed for seemingly no reason.
I'm from the part of Minneapolis where all the George Floyd protests and roots happened and it seemed like the people involved in protesting versus rioting were almost two seperate groups. A lot of angry/edgey young people and gangs decided to take advantage of the chaos to basically do whatever they wanted.
I know people from Chile where there was massive protests a few years back and they said basically the same thing.
Really helpful context. And what a beautiful country
Not a country though, actual name is “autonomous region of France”
Thanks for that info!
It's worth noting that, while those that boycotted the 3rd vote had a legitimate grievance, all evidence pointed to them losing the 3rd vote either way so it could have been a political move as the independence party would lose either way. However, the independence support has grown since 2018, just not enough to win the vote. The gap is slowly closing.
This makes the new law............ complicated.
If you assume that independence has consistently been voted down, then the laws around voting should be changed to allow those who've been on the island for 10+ years to vote. Saying that perhaps another vote down the road would eventually lead to independence doesn't seem like a good answer for preventing people who are effectively citizens there from voting.
However, changing this law, will make it nearly impossible for the independence movement to win any future vote so this has been decried by those backing independence as a power play to solidify control. This is also likely true. With the new change, the vote for independence will likely never succeed now unless the demographics radically change.
It's worth noting that, while those that boycotted the 3rd vote had a legitimate grievance, all evidence pointed to them losing the 3rd vote either way so it could have been a political move as the independence party would lose either way.
First vote: 133 days between announce and vote Second vote: 102 days between announce and vote Third vote: 165 days between announce and vote
And even if they decide to mourn for 6 month, democracy takes one day only.
However, the independence support has grown since 2018, just not enough to win the vote. The gap is slowly closing.
Yes, because people are barred the right to vote even if they've always been french and they've lived there for 30 years, yet they don't have the basic right to vote.
This makes the new law............ complicated.
Giving people their democratic right is complicated?
This makes the new law............ complicated.
It's only complicated if you are an ethnonationalist that want limited democratic rights for some people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
40% kanak, 24% French
They're all french, it's 40% kanak, 24% white
The 2021 vote was boycotted, according to Kanak independence groups, due to Kanak cultural traditions around mourning periods and the ongoing pandemic. The prior votes both rejected independence but saw an increase in independence support between 2018 and 2020.
Loyalist groups instead argue the election was boycotted because the independence forces were going to lose, and thus sought to delegitimise the votes outcome.
First vote: 133 days between announce and vote
Second vote: 102 days between announce and vote
Third vote: 165 days between announce and vote
And even if they decide to mourn for 6 month, democracy takes one day only.
So the lesson is boycotting referendums leads to the other side winning? Who could have guessed.
Basically, France offered three referendum opportunities for independence, independence lost the first two
The third was when the vaccine roll-out began, and France chose to prioritise the people of outre-mer above people in metropolitan France
This made Paris very popular to Caledonians, so instead of badly lose, the pro independence side chose to boycott the election
Now that independence is impossible for the next several decades, France is going to eliminate a racist law that only allows those living in the island before 98 or those of Kanak blood to vote in local elections
And the pro independence fighters have erupted
What? There are people living there for like 20 years who can't even vote in their local elections?
And the pro-independence don't want that to change? Who are these lunatics?
They don't want to change it because it lowers their influence, and New Caledonia is receiving a lot of immigration.
Why are people immigrating there?
It's a tropical island, yet still part of France.
Also has a population of 270,000 vs 70 million in France. So a tiny amount of French people migrating there means a huge influx of people for NewCal.
It’s France but tropics
New Caledonia is a settlement colony (a bit like Australia, you want the resources AND to create a new settlement zone), the society is segregated (well, like all colonies).
As a result of this particular colonial history (“settlement”), the Canaques are in a minority today, representing 40% of the population.
They have built their claim to independence on the (international) right of peoples to self-determination, basically saying “we are the only ones to have been colonized, so we are the only ones entitled to decide on the future of the archipelago”. Living here for 20 years is not relevant regarding this.
On the other side, the French state considers that no, it's a part of the French republic, so 1 man = 1 vote, everyone can vote and have their say.
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18d
Look at Hawaii... The natives wish they could riot like this
Based on the comment histories of some people shitting on France in the comments here it seems "ethnostates" are only bad when they're filled with people of an ethnicity that begins with the letter J.
Fuck Jamaica, Japan, and Jordan. Every other ethnostate is OK
Usually whataboutism is based on the wild guess that someone will hold an irrationally inconsistant view given two similar contexts. It's flawed on two points. It's flawed in hypothesizing without evidence that someone will act hypocritically, without any reason to suggest they might. Second, it's also usually wrong in that it often glosses over context that differentiates the situations.
So in reality the answer to it boils down to either. It's the same situation and they'd hold the same belief, or its a different situation and they'd hold a different belief, or they're irrational and it's rhetorical anyway. None of these results doing anything to further the argument.
Exhibit #573 of "If this topic isn't about them, I'll MAKE it about them!"
Just can't leave 'em alone, hm?
Insane how you frame French settlers being banned from voting as racist. Completely flipping the power dynamic
You do know, the vast majority of the non kanaks are naturalised inmigrants
The racism the Vietnamese and Asian communities have in new Caledonia by the kanaks is extreme, much more then the Kanak white racism, since the native French haven't increased in numbers, and largely aren't affected by the electoral law as they usually lived there for long
Meanwhile the inmigrant, mostly Asian population in new Caledonia, completely naturalised as French citizens has increased very rapidly, and are the ones being disenfranchised, by an large by this racist law
Would you call inmigrants settlers when they aren't even from the nation that did the colonising? Lol
But why ban TikTok?
According to the gov, it's used by rioters to coordinate.
(that's what they said in the press conference this morning)
Cause the rioters are most likely on Chinese payroll.
More likely because the rioters are using TikTok to coordinate and spread their plans
Both of these things are probably true here tbh
Why can’t the rioter on Chinese payroll operate on Facebook or twitter which are more widely used?
China has a "golden share" in Bytedance, so Bytedance is required by law to allow the CCP to direct what content is provided to public users, and also access all data associated with those users. A Chinese plant trying to stoke riots could also use facebook and Twitter too, but the CCP wouldn't be able to direct facebook/Twitter to push pro-rioting content to pro-independence users like it can with Bytedance/TikTok.
Facebook and twitter censor this kind of stuff, just like they largely censor pro Palestinian propaganda while Tik Tok doesn't. (hence why the US is also trying to ban Tik Tok)
France is going to eliminate a racist law that only allows those living in the island before 98 or those of Kanak blood to vote in local elections
Worse. It was decided in 1998. But you had to live there before 1988 to be eligible. Some people have lived there for 30+ years and have not the right to vote while being born with french citizenship.
Pro-independence camp lost two high participation referendums in 2018 & 2020. Independence isn't really a feasible option already, so it doesn't make sense to disenfranchise people living there for long time on that hope. Also, independentists getting support from Aliyev's Azerbaijan lately doesn't make them look good.
I would add it feels disingenuous not to point out how close these referendums are and the fact the referendum increased in support between 2018 and 2020.
The country produces 25% of the world's nickel, so it is quite important to the US and greater EU. One of the wealthiest Pacific populations, though some of that is from French subsidies.
The natives do though have a brutal history with France until the second half of the 20th century.
TIL New Caledonia is a place that exists
American servicemen operating in the Pacific were frequently given leave there during World War II.
There's at least one New Zealand WW2 cemetery there.
It was used as an advance base, in fact. At some point there were about 50k soldiers stationed there.
It's right near Australia, but hardly any Australians go there because it's really expensive (compared to nearby alternatives) and they don't speak English there.
Heaps of Aussies go there on cruises for a day. Noumea is(or was 15 years ago when I went) a dump.
It's pretty much just people stopping there for a day as part of a cruise.
But it seems much more rare that people would fly there for a week rather than the usual warmer destinations like Queensland, Fiji or Bali
Lots of Aussies don't even know it exists. I only know as their satellite tv footprint used to overlap into Australia so you could pickup some of their channels a few decades ago.
Former New Caledonian here. Yeah I don't blame you, Noumea kind of sucks (even more now that it's half burned to the ground). The countryside is really nice though.
I visited Noumea (the capital) in 2017 as an Australian, I found it expensive, dirty and really unfriendly. Would happily never visit again.
I went in 2007 on a school tour group and it was ok, we did a homestay with a local family. A few interesting things to see and some nice beaches but other than that I can imagine life there would get boring quite quickly. I can’t remember how much things there cost but overall I think the tour was like 2k aud inclusive for a week.
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connard
c'est pô faux
I really don't get how you could 1/ find Nouméa dirty and 2/ stay in the capital when the entire point of a stay in New Caledonia is to explore the crazy nature of the archipelago.
But sure, it's expensive.
Vanuatu, Fiji, Cook Islands, and even places like Samoa and Tonga are cheaper, more accessible, and a bit more tourist-friendly.
New Caledonia definitely speaks enough English for tourists.
Source: went there as a tourist.
If you stick to the most touristy spots yeah, but otherwise most of the population doesn't know English.
I went there in 2007. Lovely place and people but unless you can speak French it isn’t as fun a place to visit as say Bali or Fiji imo.
Learned about it from a k-drama myself.
Is this the spot that British and French colonials decided to rule jointly? Where both had their own laws and people could basically choose to follow British or French rules.
Don't think so - from the wiki article:
While "British explorer James Cook was the first European to sight New Caledonia, on 4 September 1774, during his second voyage", there was no apparent British colonization. It was a colony of France from 1853 until "In 1946, New Caledonia became an overseas territory. By 1953, French citizenship had been granted to all New Caledonians, regardless of ethnicity."
Hmm wonder what I’m thinking of or if I somehow made it up?
Maybe Vanuatu? It's just to the north-northeast of New Caledonia.
in 1906 France and the United Kingdom agreed to administer the islands jointly; called the Anglo-French Condominium, it was a unique form of government, with two separate governmental, legal, judicial and financial systems that came together only in a (weak and ineffective) Joint Court.
Yes that’s it! Thanks so much. Interesting historical tid bit for sure.
The joint court had three judges - one French, one British and until 1939 one Spanish judge appointed by the king of Spain. The Spanish judge was there to be preside over the court and be a tiebreaker. Sometimes they used French law and sometimes British law.
People were allowed to choose which government they wanted ruling over them. You go to decide which immigration law applies to you as you are entering the country. You could also decide which set of laws to follow when registering a business or whether you want your trial to be under common law or civil law. That would decide whether you get arrested by the French or British police officer and whether you will go to a French-run prison or a British-run prison. If you wanted to leave the colony you had to get permission from both authorities.
No that’s Vanuatu - which is much less developed than New Caledonia as a result of both powers shirking responsibility.
Also they have just about the worst spot on the map in terms of natural disasters. Volcanoes cyclones earthquakes tsunamis etc. So the limited development on most of the outlying islands is constantly being destroyed and rebuilt.
Not every world map shows it funnily, while showing smaller islands.
It feels surreal to see my country in the news
De même !
Bon courage pour les prochains jours ❤️ Ça a pas fini de brûler
J'espère que vous et vos proches êtes en sécurité et avec des réserves de vivre pour passer les prochains jours.
New Caledonia, near Australia??
Yes, New Caledonia sits between Australia and New Zealand, on submerged Zelandia continent with New Zealand.
It is a French territory, if it is a willing French territory is a matter of some debate.
I love how the top comments are focusing on TIK TOK and fucking China.
Here's a French paywalled article from my newspaper talking about the legality of blocking tiktok https://next.ink/137451/blocage-de-tiktok-en-nouvelle-caledonie-quels-sont-les-enjeux/
In summary: There is a rather old (1995) laws that allow the emegency of online platforms if promotting or used for terrorism. It state the terrorist qualification here is discutable. It also state that the EU does not allow Very Large Online Platform to be blocked this way, but it doesn't apply to New Caledonia (and a few others, but not all outer French territory).
It also says that there a lot of unknown factor about the future or how it is implemented, but that there is only a single ISP there. It also state that the blocking seems to only be applied on "mobile" (and by that I guess it is 3g/4g/5g network, but not Wi-Fi)
(Bortzmeyer will probably do a technical analysis, like he like to do in this kind of case)
There are people who spent the last few years complaining that their boomer relatives were brainwashed by right wing media that are now being brainwashed by social media without even realizing it
Ahh, the never-ending debate between indigenous sovereignty and the rights of settler-colonial descendants.
Ahh
Anybody who starts their point with this drinks their own cum
So the reason why they are rioting is because they want to put into wall that people that moved to the island 10 years ago are able to vote in upcoming elections and such. What was the rule or law before they tried to change it to the 10 year rule? Did you have to be born on the island to vote as an adult? I just wanna learn more
As you can see from what I’ve written and asked so far I don’t know a lot about these issues or the island in general. I’m just learning so please be patient.
Either native ancestry or lived there before 1998
Lived there before 1988*. It was made law in 1998, but you had to have lived there for 10 years back then.
I'm in the US. I've watched BBC News and EuroNews all fucking day and this post from 6 hrs ago is the first I'm hearing of this. The big story on TV is the shooting in Slovakia. Over and over and over. Then some Georgia, and Tesla. WTF
I'm in the US. I've watched BBC News and EuroNews all fucking day and this post from 6 hrs ago is the first I'm hearing of this. The big story on TV is the shooting in Slovakia. Over and over and over. Then some Georgia, and Tesla. WTF
Probably has something to do with the riots starting two days ago, and is 'old news' by 24/7 coverage standards. There's been no shortage of mainstream coverage, as evidenced by the network uploads on youtube.
Can we just outright ban Tik Tok everywhere?
Tik Tok’s algorithms are not beneficial to society, and is highly manipulatable with its targeted demographic advertising system. Glad to see precedent being set for banning it
Have a guess who helped this along. The country first letter is R.
how could the Romanians do this?!
I am dissapoint in you Romania.
No it's those bloody upstarts in Rwanda
No one ever expects the Romans
Rwanda?
There's no proof of that so far.
Everything happening in the world is somehow the fault of Russia to these people. They are simultaneously a pathetic country who is relatively struggling against an inferior Ukraine but also Evil Masterminds who are responsible for every little civil unrest in the entire world.
Le Royaume-Uni ?
Perfidious Albion strikes again
Les Rosbifs!
This is Russia trying to keep France busy while they are invading .
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