Big question.
I'm a long time lurker of this page.
Why has no one ever posted anything about prenuptial agreements?
I'm a young white coat professional 29 years old and it's something I think about a lot.
I'm building my own practice and I'm concerned about protecting myself.
I'm currently casually dating, but I do plan to get married eventually.
Are there any resources on this?
There is a such thing as post-nuptial agreement that almost is never brought up. It’s fairly rare, but exists.
As far as pre-nuptial, obviously either party is free to suggest and also must live with the consequences in that personal relationship. As many others have said, it’s not an unreasonable thought if you have standing assets. Also as many others have said, a prenup is often not ironclad.
"One house, one spouse, one job." - Dr. Dahle
That sounds great and I hope it works out for you but the statistics say 50% of marriage is end in divorce and 80% of divorces are initiated by women so
Seems like something we should be concerned about?
the statistics say 50% of marriage is end in divorce and 80% of divorces are initiated by women so
50% of marriages end in divorce when you view all marriages that ever occur in this country. When you control for a person having multiple marriages and divorces, it changes the figure pretty significantly.
Most people who get married do not get divorced. But the people who get divorced tend to marry and divorce multiple ties.
Also, educated people who marry in their 30's have a much lower divorce rate.
A quick google says first marriages are still at 41%. Which I don’t find super reassuring in comparison to 50%.
The culture and lifestyle of people without a college degree is irrelevant to people in this sub. The divorce rate for first marriages for women with a college degree is 22%
Doc + nondoc divorce rates are higher than the average, but doc + doc divorce rates are lower than both. Consider a physician marriage lol
That way you’re both working too much to have time to get a divorce!
Do consider that those statistics are highly skewed by people that get married young, multiple marriages, short courtship, etc. Having a normal length relationship and getting married when you are both ready drastically reduces the likelihood of divorce.
Disagree. If you come into the marriage with assets you should always have a prenup.
Even if no assets before the marriage. A prenup is negotiating how things get distributed when you're in love with the person, instead of when you aren't.
If you have no assets people to the marriage, then there’s nothing to negotiate.
Yes, be concerned, but be mindful that the 50% is driven by those who marry when under 25yrs old. Also keep in mind that 1 in 4 marriages end in divorce due to domestic violence.
Are you the violent type? The type to cheat? Poor with money? (Many doctors are. They like to match their spend to their ego.) is your partner any of these?
This is a huge myth.
When both spouses have a professional degree and are financially stable, that number drops dramatically. It also varies by race (African Americans have extremely high rates, Indian Americans have extremely low rates).
Divorce rate for a first marriage for women with a college degree is 22% (source). The high total rate is driven by the high failure rate of second marriages and the ridiculous 60% divorce rate among people who never went to college, neither of which is relevant in any way for you.
Women file for divorce much more often because, well, not to be sexist but men are much lazier when it comes to paperwork. Very common for men to move out and make their wife file all the documents. Also, women on average make less money than their husbands so they have a financial interest in actually going through the divorce process
I don’t like the implication the women can’t be the high earners in this situation and that “we” in this sub are all males who don’t wanna get (financially) fucked by a gold-digger. Gross.
Your assuming there are only two genders is gross.
That 50% is outdated anyway, it’s been decreasing since the 90s. You’ll find the right person, don’t give up!
Hot take: You already have a prenuptial agreement automatically when you get married...it's just adjudicated by the government.
Yes, you should have a prenuptial agreement with you future spouse about assets--owned separately--prior to marriage. She might also be a professional with her own assets. After marriage, you should assume fair share distribution between both parties.
Myron has shown us the way, the coat is white but the pill is red
Maybe focus more on keeping the marriage happy and now marrying someone and planning for the divorce
Don't get married is the only safe option.
Marry up is the safest option.
I married a non-MD healthcare worker who had discovered FIRE in college. He made low six figures at a young age and saved AGGRESSIVELY. I was in good shape… for a resident. He entered our marriage with greatly disproportionate assets and I entered our marriage with greatly disproportionate earning potential. We spent a lot of time making sure we were on the same page for our future, our future lifestyle, and our goals. Ultimately, we were counseled that in our state, a pre nup that would achieve our goals in case of a split (protecting his FIRE investment and protecting my TBD earning so we could both be financially secure) would essentially not get held up in court. We 100% combined our finances and have no pre nup. We have both been told by some we made a mistake, but we feel the up front investment of time to really get on the same page about all of this was worth the “risk” of divorce since we are both pretty committed to making our marriage work.
Well done
Why wouldn’t a prenup protect his premarital assets?
Yes, a prenup would protect his premarital assets. But in order for us to protect his premarital assets while married and allow him to “retire” when I became an attending, we wanted to combine finances and live purely off my income. It was basically not possible to then guarantee protection of my future earnings (how we wanted to) in a situation of divorce from alimony even with a prenup according to the attorneys we consulted. Since my financial security (if divorced) was based on my future income, the attorneys we discussed it with recommended against a prenup based on our combined goals/preferences of how we wanted to live our married life. Other people with different goals and different things they were willing to negotiate on may have made different choices or gotten different advice. Nobody enters marriage expecting divorce, so the advice was geared towards the unexpected. IANAL, this is my lay understanding/memory from a decade ago.
If you have 500k, get married and stop worrying. If you have 5M, get a prenup.
Prenups really only matter if one partner comes in with substantially more assets. That can be protected. Generally, income earned while married is ‘shared’.
This is just false. A prenuptial agreement can protect earned income post marriage. OP talk to a lawyer not people on reddit.
Depends on the state - I’m in a community property state - doesn’t matter what your prenup says income earned while married is community property.
You should probably read your own link
My understanding is that most of the time anything can be contracted
This is just plain wrong lol just go talk to a lawyer.
Maybe in your state, but not in mine. Google “Community property states”
Prenups won’t necessarily protect you or your assets. It’s somewhat of a guiding light, but not always iron clad.
As someone who is a doctor divorced from a doctor, who has been totally screwed over by an ex spouse, get a prenup.
Then invest into having a great relationship with your spouse and kids so you never have to use it.
I'm concerned about protecting myself.
Since it's a concern, I'd bring up the topic early on in the relationship, so that your potential partners are aware of your priorities. Might save you some time, money, headaches, and/or heartaches.
For sure get one. Start the discussions early to avoid risk of being thrown out due to “distress”. Remember. The biggest risk to assess aren’t malpractice it’s your spouse.
Yeah.. Most prenups only cover what you bring in.. They don’t cover anything earned or accumulated while married.
So one for actual practice sure, probably could make sense… But all the income made from that practice while married won’t be covered and 100% the other side will be looking for money earned and hidden into the company. Also if you you try to cheat the system to screw your partner, the judge can throw out the whole thing and you’re fucked..
Think of it like a bond, the prenup cover the face value of the bond, but all the interest payments aren’t.
Haven’t seen a ton of cases with practices started after marriage with a prenup, so I’m not sure how that would work but they probably wouldnt cover the practice..
I don’t think most here would consider a prenup an investment.
Protecting 75% of your assets is not an investment???
No. By that definition, not even close.
It’s more of a legal issue so probably more appropriate in those types of subs. The laws differ by state and everyone’s situation is different.
Idk why you got downvoted. I agree with you
Your resource should be a lawyer in your state. Not an investor sub-reddit as many of these comments have no idea what they are talking about.
Unfortunately this might be the best comment
I really just want to keep my practice separate because I've spent years building it even though I'm not with anyone
Don't get me wrong if I had someone by my side helping me build it, I wouldn't feel compelled to get a prenup, If it was a 50/50 thing I would totally share it
But I built it on my own without anyone's help so
I want to make sure it's protected
Something to consider for your future…when you marry someone you’re making each other a promise that you will take care of them and they will take care of you and you’ll be partners. Your partner, although maybe not specifically contributing to your business, will most likely take care of your children and home and she will be the mother of your children. With that in mind you should treat her fairly even if you go through a divorce. Treat her right and always respect her as a partner and always invest in your relationship. That’s how you protect your assets. Women are emotional and when they have no ill will toward you they will not try to “take you for everything you’ve got”. As for prenups look up if you’re a communal property state or equitable division state. Chances are that a lawyer will advise you to get your business appraised right before marriage and that will be your part in a prenup but anything after marriage is 50/50 or more depending on too many factors. Your business makes you an income and is also therefore gonna be considered in alimony/child support. No prenup that is completely biased toward you will be help up in court (aka no alimony whatsoever, no part of the business, etc) if you don’t want her to have equity in your business you’ll need to give her more of other assets in the prenup. And please make sure SHE has an attorney she trusts and is looking out for her so you can make the prenup EQUAL and FAIR. This will also prevent her from saying later in court that you coerced her to sign a prenup.
I agree with 90% of this except
I'm actually very religious and don't believe in divorce
So if someone forced me to go through a divorce against my religion
Oh all bets are off
But that's a good idea about making sure The prenup is something that will hold up in court!!
And your other points are good too!!
Well that was very unexpected. Well that’s your personal view and I would just make sure that you find a partner that has similar views and you should avoid having her force you into a divorce. But a marriage is a two way street so it takes work from both partners
its posted all the time.
you should have one.
thats it, thats the brain power you allocate.
Because I’m not getting married. Why would I put 50% of everything I worked for on the line for a title or some tax right offs that would be dwarfed by the amount I could potentially lose in a divorce. Not worth the risk.
I understand falling in love with someone doesn't equates to having a level heated spouse.
You can get to know someone with ambition and drive, doesn't mean you will develop feelings for that person. Or you may not be attracted or have sexual chemistry.
However, getting to know someone before marriage helps reducing the odds of a divorce. Having similar goals in life (children, marriage, professional, spiritual, ect), and being open to counseling to fix problems are key to a successful marriage.
A pre-nup can protect your assets that you brought to the marriage such as property or potentially a business, but it doesn't protect all of it.
I rather invest in knowing someone really well before even moving in together. I rather spend a couple of counseling sessions with hard questions before even considering marriage. All that is time consuming and a drop of urine in the ocean compared to splitting assets and or spousal support.
Downvoting simply because you’re simplifying something that’s very complex. Situations change, relationships change, people change.
if you have a million dollars now maybe get a prenup. If not then you are going to give half of everything to your wife so dont worry
Prenup is ideal but doubt your future fiancé would agree
then she can marry somebody else lol
Always do a prenup in case you are a high earner
Get serious about getting married, and then worry about the prenup. Prenups are widely discussion on the WCI forum and other financial subreddits.
Save as much as possible now. 100% get a prenup. Make sure you marry the right person so you never have to worry about it.
1) the question is posted at least weekly. 2) it always breaks down into a toxic comment section. 3) the bottom line is that a pre nup only has the capability of protecting assets you have prior to marriage. Anything earned after is shared. Also there’s lots of situations like childbirth that can potentially null whatever was written in the first place. You’re not “protecting what’s yours” and the contract doesn’t work the way you think it does.