A trucking company recently purchased the property in front of a friends cabin in New Hampshire and within days cut acres of trees down. The land has a protected stream and should have been protected by law but they moved too fast. It’s too late now as every tree is gone. 200 year old trees were leveled in days. Is there anything that can still be done to stop them from building a light pollution parking lot ruining the natural beauty?
First of all, your friend should consider getting a survey if there is any question about whether all the trees cut were on the trucking company's lot. If even a few of them were on his property he could have a significant claim for damages under a timber trespass theory (https://www.lawyersnh.com/timber-trespass-what-happens-when-the-neighbor-cuts-down-your-trees/).
If all the trees were on the other owner's property, it becomes very tough. Realistically any penalties would probably be within the ambit of governmental agencies and your friend might not have legal standing to do anything about it. But your friend could file a complaint and lobby DES or the local building official to require the truck company to do wetland remediation.
If the company has not yet secured a "site plan" from the local planning board for whatever they're building/developing, your friend could also have the opportunity to argue to the planning board that they should deny whatever it is that they're seeking or (again) that they should include buffer, etc., due to their actions.
It is also possible that RSA 676:15 could come into play, which allows for abutters to receive injunctions in some instances where local land use laws are violated. But I'm not sure it could be used to prevent them from building/constructing something now just based on a prior violation.
Thank you for your response but, most of all, for using the word "ambit". I rarely see it in the wild, anymore.
I’ve never heard that word. Gonna use it in Wordle
To the disdain of everyone else. Well played.
I'm flabbergasted that someone actually used ambit here on reddit. It is a bit of a circuitous way to say that the government would be the entity with due cause.
Wordle only uses common words.
no they don't
Explain. I never came across a less used word in wordle. Plus they’re positivity biased which I kind of adore.
No google, I want ambit not ambition.
And that is why AI will never be what it's hyped to become.
🤣🤣🤣
NH has a shore line protection act as of 15 or so years ago. Depending on the size of the stream, they may or may not have needed a state permit to cut down ANY trees within 150 of the waters edge.
Take pictures and notify the state to see if they needed /received a permit to cut the trees.
If they own the property and they’re getting correct permits and following zoning, what they’re doing is perfectly legal…
It depends on what OP meant by protected.
We had a case here where a company was being told they could cut everything except a specific area that had protection clause due to the presence of specific species. They ended up cutting everything super fast, knowing that the fine and backlash was likely going to be lower than to cancel the real estate project.
I lived in Florida in the middle of a swamp. Someone bought a parcel that had not been cleared and, instead of doing an ecological survey to see what plants had to be saved, rented a bush hog and clear cut the parcel themselves. Our other neighbor called the county and they levied a 3 million dollar fine on the property that had to be paid or nothing could be done with the land.
This needs reporting.
Other side of the country here.
This happens with some frequency unfortunately and a large fine doesn't always do what you think it does.
If the fine is small, they'll just eat the cost as a part of business. They don't care, they'll corners, cheat their employees out of raises, pass it to their customer or all of the above.
Go heavy on the fine and those assholes eat the fine, declare bankruptcy, dissolve the company, then sell their assets to a company that had filings with the Secretary of State for the last 5 years but somehow had ZERO earnings until a week before the fine.
In either case, Joe public gets their feel good emotions and the company owners continue on as if nothing happened.
Jail time never works because they always have lawyers that help them weasle out of it. I'm of the opinion that to make the punishment really hurt, there should be asset forfeiture coupled with the fine. Not just the property involved but also the equipment and materials involved with the project. Then tack on no-sale back clause to the original owners and their known associates.
Of course, I'm also of the opinion that everyone running a spam call center should get the Lord of the Flies treatment so what do I know?
Welcome to the oligarchy. Just sacrifice a little bit of morals and you two can ride high with the capital denizens. Its just a little fraud, everybody's doing it, look even the politicians insider trade, 50k just to tell me your staffing numbers next month?
TY for sharing that.
There may be protections for the floodplain as well that the company completely ignored. Definitely contact your local municipality
The neat part is that even if they’re liable, the fines will bankrupt the LLC. Then next week, the owner will launch a new LLC and pick up where he left off.
There can be a lien placed on the land, not that it has as much value as the fine will be
We need to bring back debtors prisons for white collar crime
Cutting down trees is solidly a blue collar crime.
Find it strange that property zoned for cabins could be used for industrial purposes, probably worth looking into.
Companies are usually required to do studies or consult studies done on protected areas, but usually no one gives a shit if there’s a rare flower or frog that lives there.
Near me an old guy sold his 500 acres of native white oak forest. The new owners cut the trees and let people take the them for firewood. The rest they dozered into huge slash piles that smoldered all winter. The fires of Mordor.
Now they grow grass seed on it. All perfectly legal. Sometimes I am ashamed to be a human.
That is astonishing. What state?
Oregon. It’s zoned EFU Exclusive Farm Use so any farm operation is allowed.
The saddest part is that it’s not flat, it’s sloped and hilly so not that great for grass seed really. This happened back when real estate was popping. I suspect they thought they could sell it to a winery operation and make a killing.
Is there anything that can still be done to stop them from building a light pollution parking lot ruining the natural beauty?
This is 100% on the local regulations. Some areas have light pollution regulations that require shades on outdoor lights to reduce light pollution.
Since they are in New Hampshire (Live free or die), my guess is they are fucked. Since it is a trucking company their lights are probably going to be on all night, so now they are double fucked.
They might be able to convince them to install low pollution lights for their lot but I seriously doubt it.
About the only thing they have to hang their hat on is that protected stream. If it really is protected and depending on the type of protection, they might get them to stop construction for a bit until the remediate whatever damage is already done.
Also: noise all day and night.
If they did anything that affected the stream, they have big problems.
Depending on what its protected status is, your friend may want to reach out to the Army Corps of Engineers.
Unlikely it falls under their jurisdiction.
Well, if it's a WOTUS it does, but we don't have any idea if it is.
The WOTUS rule doesn’t apply to agriculture or forestry. They don’t have authority to deny cutting trees. Cutting trees does not constitute a polluting act.
And if you think cutting trees doesn't "pollute" , you need to go back to Capt obvious school.
That's the precise reason turbidity barriers have to be in place before any vegetation removal permits are granted by counties or municipalities, or earth moving permits.
The damn run off and erosion from doing exactly that.
And THOSE are not covered under 404 permitting, but they are covered under the others for specifically the reason of don't pollute the god damn water adjacent to your work .
So "pollution" isn't the thing you think it is here. 404 is a dredge and fill permit also.
No single permit covers all aspects of developing a site.
Permits exist for: 1. Federal interest in Wetlands and waterways 2. State interests in wetlands and waterways 3. State interests in archeological sites 4. Federal interest in listed species 5. State interests in listed species 6. Local interest in tree preservation and upland preservation 7. State and local interest in upland buffer preservation around wetlands 8. State rules on wetland mitigation via off-site mitigation whether related to a 404 or not.
So, some goofy statement of " the clean water act doesn't apply to agriculture or forestry", especially if it's a wotus and therefore the coe jurisdiction in states not under pre-2015 , lol, is very ignorant and you should never say that.
Found the permitter! Nice summary.
Thank you.
Yeah, and in FL we are just a hot damn mess with the interim status of who's ruling who... Just ridiculous.
It may still get approved, but I'm guessing it won't be anytime soon. The T&E species review was always going to be an issue, FDEP just doesn't have staff trained for that, and FWC can't keep enough permitters to handle their existing workloads. It is definitely a mess.
Please don't make me talk about fdep and their staff.
I have never been more ashamed of college graduates or stunned by ineptitude in my life.
They get exactly what they pay for.
And fwc could have so many more quality people if they'd pay... But at least they do "seem" to get the quality people willing to take the low pay.
Which dep reeeeeeallly doesn't get.
This game is just nuts. We've been doing it all properly on our end of course anyway, so when they finally got called on the carpet, at least all our ducks are and will be in a row.
Cutting a tree does not, under the clean water act, itself constitute pollution. It may increase erosion, but the EPA explicitly says that the WOTUS rule does not apply to erosion. If you’re filling a wetland, or otherwise destroying a wetland covered by the act, then the rule applies. Simply being in proximity to a stream is not enough to require a federal permit to cut trees, though.
I did not say it does
Itself.
I replied to someone who said if the steam is a coe jurisdictional one, there can be problems. Because, it's a suite of things all together. Not the trees alone being cut. They either have a permit for the work, or not. The permit will be several different ones, but all related. If you have a vegetation removal permit, but didn't have the proper environmental protection in place while doing the work, and you affect a WOTUS, you can expect a problem.
Lol. Yes it does.
Wow.
Also, that's not forestry, they literally just cut down some trees next to where some cabin is. To build a commercial place. Wtf are you talking about?
In addition, even PCC designation doesn't usually work.
If it's a WOTUS, under cwa under whichever rule nh is doing, meaning pre-2015 or current 2023/sackett - them it is.
Lol, it applies just fine, if it meets the definition, and isn't excluded under any of them, and that's no "forestry" situation in any way.
It sure as fuck applies to agriculture, I think Florida wants a word if you think otherwise.
A stream is not a cattle dipping vat or excavated reservoir, etc.
Fucking irrigation ditches and furrows half the time aren't even excluded.
So , is the area zoned industrial? Commercial?
Is the stream a WOTUS?
Is there a wetland?
What permits do they have?
If they don't have a permit, then do something.
If they do, read it and see what the environmental survey said about the property before they could get a construction approval sign off. See what the tree survey said.
Were they native trees? What is the tree protection and mitigation rule in your county?
Call the county and the state Dept of environmental protection.
Look up how to get an environmental resource permit, and then call and ask for information about the property.
You need the parcel number from the county appraisal office.
If you don't know who to call or ask, call an environmental consulting company and ask them to point you in the right direction.
They will be found as environmental consulting , resource restoration, environmental permitting, wetland mitigation, environmental assessment companies as key words to look for.
Money talks. Real estate developers will never stop making money. They have lawyers who will sue towns into bankruptcy to get zoning laws overturned.
Or they view the fines as a business expense. This was the case in the town where I grew up, but it was with historical buildings. The fines for razing a historic structure on a large plot were nothing compared to the money that they made from building and selling several new homes. It took awhile for the laws to catch up to the practice.
What area of state?
200 year old trees is New Hampshire? Are you certain of that?
This really all depends local/municipality laws, and if that stream should have been buffered and is being protected from erosion.
If all the trees they cut were on their property, there's likely nothing anybody can do about it.
Heres a different light to see it in as well... For your own house to exist, someone had to come clear the trees down, and do the exact same thing that this trucking company is doing now.
We absolutely need to protect our natural reaources, but can't completey stop the progression and success of our species(i.e. Your new neighbors livelihood) because we want to feel good about ourselves when we keep a few trees from being cut down.
But if these guys DID do things without being in compliance of regulations...screw em and get em after em as best you can.
Are you questioning whether there are 200 year old trees in New Hampshire?
No not at all, I just want to make sure OP is knowledgeable about their concerns, and not just trying to get an emotional knee-jerk reaction.
Of course there are 200 year old trees in lots of places.
But OP said there was several acres of these trees, it seems highly unlikely they were all 200 years old, and if one or two them were, why weren't the rest of the trees the same age?
It just doesn't seem highly likely to me is all. I'm not calling OP a liar or dumb by any means at all.
NH is on the eastern seaboard, there are NOT many old-growth forest left here on the east coast. And if there are trees that old, they are likely already in someone's yard, a graveyard, a park, etc. etc. NOT growing in some random lot that someone intends to sell for it to be developed.
Could have been an old lot a family has owned for generations, the grandparents or parents died and the kids just recently decided to sell it. A very common occurrence in Texas
New Hampshire, along with most of the rest of the East Coast, was virtually clear-cut by the 1850s. There are very few trees over 100 years old.
It’s hard for me to believe myself, but 1850 was 175 years ago. 200 years old isn’t that big of a stretch.
I'm not an expert but my meager understanding is that most forests are at least second growth. First thing the settlers did was decimate the old growth forests. And to OP's friend, my deepest sympathy. I'd be crying and grieving this loss. Can he contact the county board? Talk to the mayor? Anything?
Yes, 200 years ago was 1824.
New Hampshire was settled in the early 1600s. 400 years ago.
A lot of the clearing was done later when industries ramped up. Idk about NH but in NY a lot of it was done after the Erie canal, and peak deforestation was just before the plains opened up for agriculture. NYS was something like 90% deforested before the depression/ccc schemes started planting timber and once wheat production shifted to the midwest a lot was simply abandoned and has since become state forest
Long leaf pine used to extinction for the shipbuilding industry.
While yes, settlers did cut down a lot of trees, it wasn’t systematically razed. There are a good number of very old trees around, and here’s a link to some old growth forests, specifically in NH:
https://extension.unh.edu/blog/2021/04/top-old-growth-forests-visit-new-hampshire
In 1860 80% of NH was unforested. Today 80% is forest. 1860 was after the sheep boom when the state south of the mountains was clear cut for (not very good) pasture. That’s when most of the stonewalls date from. It grew back, much of it was harvested for timber and it grew back again. Much of the forest in NH seems old but only dates back 80 or 100 years.
SHEEP FEVER
But do you notice how most of these forest are already in national or state parks, or in otherwise protected or conserved areas?
You don't USUALLY wind up with an old-grown forest on just a few acres of somebody's lot that they end up selling for it to be developed.
New Hampshire is more than 200 years old, more like 400.
Yes! Government can sue.fine them huge. Probably as much as the koney they made. Then court order them to reforest and manage the land. Report them to the forestry department of Your area.
It’s unlikely they cleared this land without proper permissions through conservation. A great tenant of real estate; never fall in love with a view you don’t own.
*tenet
https://www.nhdfl.dncr.nh.gov/forest-protection/timber-harvesting-laws
There are rules about erosion control that might help your friend, but it sounds like they are preparing it for development, not just harvesting timber.
Are there rules preventing them from doing something on property that they now own? Huh?
I live in South East Alaska (a rainforest) and some company bought a huge, huge plot of land that makes up a vast majority of the viewing from town. They cut down EVERY SINGLE TREE on that plot of land (probably over 100 acres) and now the entire town gets to look at a giant hill full of tree stumps and piles of tree debris. It looks like a barren wasteland now. But hey, I'm sure they made a lot of money, right?
Well your friend could have bought the property if he wanted it to remain in whatever state it was in before the new owners started preparing it.
No, probably nothing to stop them but they can pay huge fines and more. Contact state and local governments. Can be some huge fines.
Theres a special place in hell for the people who cut down trees like this as well as their employers
If you don’t like logging or loggers try wiping your ass with plastic.
If you actually liked for loggers, enough to care whether their sons will have the option to follow in their footsteps? It's pretty hard to like clear-cutting.
i dont like people who cut down 200 year old trees or forests they have no real justifiable reason to cut down, but thanks for assuming jackass
and no, "i dont like it" or "i hate bugs" isnt a good enough reason.
You could’ve bought the land. If you didn’t buy the land and you don’t pay the taxes on it I suggest you mind your own business. You have no right to interfere with their property because you don’t like the way it looks. You’re seriously out of line.
Wow this is nothing but snitches and Karens
Downvote all you want …let’s tell let’s tell. How dare they cut down their own trees! Moron bought a lot next to commercial property now wants to dictate behavior. Go buy a house by the airport and whine about the noise crybabies
This subreddit is for tree law enthusiasts who enjoy browsing a list of tree law stories from other locations (subreddits, news articles, etc), and is not the best place to receive answers to questions about what the law is. There are better places for that.
If you're attempting to understand more about tree law in regards to a particular situation, please redirect your question to /r/legaladvice for the US, or the appropriate legal advice subreddit for your location, and then feel free to crosspost that thread here for posterity.
If you're attempting to understand more about trees in regards to a particular situation, please redirect your question to /r/forestry for additional information on tree health and related topics to trees.
This comment is simply a reminder placed on every post to /r/treelaw, it does not mean your post was censored or removed.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.