Could other Nazgul have been sent to set up their own versions of "Angmar"?

We know very little of the Nazgul besides that they were "great kings, sorcerers and warriors" of the Second Age from all over Middle-Earth*.

Around the arrival of the Istari in 1000 TA Sauron starts to make his presence known again and soon after so do the Nazgul. In 1300 TA the Witch King, leader of the Nazgul, forms the kingdom of Angmar in the North as a way to wreak instability in that region, particularly weakening Arnor (Gondor was already checked by Mordor) so as to make sure that the Realms of Men would not be able to put up a front when the time came for war.

Would it make sense for him to seek to do the same with other Nazgul? We know Khamul came from the East, either from Rhun or farther away. Presumably other Nazgul might come from Harad (or further south), Khand(or further southeast), and beyond. THese Nazgul would be knowlegeable of these lands and have a history there, and they would be prime candidates to 1)turn these lands into puppet states for Mordor or 2) Try and destabilize those regions just like Angmar weakened the Northeast so that the forces loyal to Sauron came out on top there.

Or was only the Witch King trusteable/powerful enough to accomplish this? An argument agaisnt could be that Sauron might've seen the Nazgul as too overtly menacing to try and have them influence these lands. Better to be subtle, distorting religion, old grudges, etc, then have overt demons try and set themselves up as kings.

*Bonus question: Its theorized (or said somewhere idk) that 3 of the 9 were Numenoreans. But I thought it was also believed that they came "From Middle-Earth". Does this indicate that these 3 were Numenoreans colonists (either Faithful or Kings Men), or could they've been living in the actual Island when they got converted?

in tolkienfansby Mervynhaspeaked

94%

22d

Lawlcopt0r

22d

I always assumed the other Nazgûl did the same thing in the east and south, only it was much easier without anyone with true knowledge of the Valar resisting them.

The Nazgûl might even have been living kings there and simply continued their rule as they turned undead, using their newly gained supernatural powers to lead their nations into a Sauron religion

Mervynhaspeaked

22d

I think in lore its stated that they eventually were forced to abandoned their realms as their immortality made living among men impossible/undesirable). The Nazgul first appeared around 2200 SA so they must've been giving Rings one or a few centuries before that, so that's almost 2k years before Angmar. I imagine they probably became legends in their regions and maybe when they came back they used those legends to be sort of "dark prophets/messiahs" coming back.

naraic-

22d

I've no problems with the idea that the other Nazgul were conquering the east for Sauron.

Perhaps the Blue Wizards had a running battle over a millenia with the Nazgul contesting for control of Khand or Harad.

Mervynhaspeaked

22d

I'm totally not dying for some fanfic about that. The blue Wizards are fascinating. Alatar (Morinethar (Darkness Slayer) and Pallando Romestano (East Helper) don't get those names for no reason, they must've been influencing and giving aid to different societies there (Alatar maybe in the south or maybe both in the East), and kicking some darkness ass. Just imagine them having to battle some Nazgul ruler of some Eastern Empire with an large army of "light aligned" peoples.

HeideggerIsRight

22d

There's a mod called Divide and Conquer, for medieval 2, yesterday the blue wizards helped in a rebellion in khand or Rhun, I don't remember now. Tolkien already gave a version where they fail and one where they have some success, I think one that is in the middle would be interesting. They create resistance against Sauron but this slowly turns into a cult of blue wizards, which ends up hindering Sauron anyway, evil devours itself

Mervynhaspeaked

22d

I also like to picture a middle ground but mixing both versions of Tolkien's idea for them. I prefer if they arrive at the same time as the other wizards (not thousands of years earlier), with Alatar bringing Pallando along, but I also prefer the version where they resist Sauron and are pivotal in their own campaigns on the east.

Also it would be interesting if 1 of them stayed true but another got corrupted. Then these two friends have to fight eachother.

Ropaire

21d

If playing as Khand, you get to make the choice. Otherwise it's a random AI thing.

Khand follows Sauron. They now have two large rampaging armies, which include eastern dwarves, wreaking havoc in their realm.
Khand rebels. They get 2 powerful armies but now have counter rebellions by those still loyal to Sauron.

Eitherway, it means several turns of chaos for Khand and I do remember seeing one entertaining game where one Blue Wizard led an invasion of Mordor from the east.

SunMon6

19d

This is how they're being portrayed in Lord of the Rings Online, which is pretty cool. There have been some hints there are magic cults in Rhun loyal to the Blue wizards and that this loyalty extends to entire clans 'clothed' in the colors of their corresponding wizard masters (blue and violet), but Sauron got his grip on the Rhun chieftains and twisted their beliefs into a "test" - Blue Wizards said don't go, don't serve Sauron, but they did that anyway and forced their people into campaigning for Sauron during War of the Ring because they interpreted it as a test of faith, as in "Sauron is a true god, and the wizards are testing our faith." On the other hand, once Sauron was destroyed, they hinted at some cataclysm/new conflict that occurred in Rhun immediately afterwards, which might imply the Blue Wizards aren't really all that perfect and stirred some trouble, without Sauron's influence hindering them.

Bowdensaft

22d

Well, possibly not a big army, their mission was to advise and not rule. Perhaps they could have been like court visiers to underground resistance movements, or moved around helping in small ways like Gandalf.

Mervynhaspeaked

22d

Yes that's what I meant. Gandalf rode in front of a big army afterall, even if he was not its ruler.

Though lets also remember that each of the 3 wizards we know have very distinct personalities and ways of dealing with the world, and that these 2 wizards are probably no different. Perhaps a more hands on approach would be the better option for them.

Bowdensaft

21d

I like this

zorniy2

22d

One like Uncle Iroh and the White Lotus.

The other disguised as a cabbage merchant. 😁

Mervynhaspeaked

22d

You jest but that's pretty much how I picture the personality of Alatar and his buddy Pallando 😂

FloiTrollhammer

22d

Who’s to say the Wainrider confederacy wasn’t being manoeuvred by one or two Nazgul, either acting overtly like the witch king in Angmar, or in the shadows.

Malachi108

22d

Does this indicate that these 3 were Numenoreans colonists (either Faithful or Kings Men), or could they've been living in the actual Island when they got converted?

Given how Sauron had never set foot on Numenor before being brought there by Ar-Pharazon (shoo off, Bezos!), I don't see how he could have distributed 3 of the 9 to anyone presently living there.

Ergo, they must have been among the colonists.

Eoghann_Irving

22d

Well the key purpose of Angmar was to destabilize and eliminate the North Kingdom. It's clear to what extent that would really be needed elsewhere in Middle-Earth.

But yeah, sure there's nothing that suggests they couldn't have done it.

FlyingDiscsandJams

22d

I think the main answer is that you have to have entire armies to back up each "Angmar". It took all of the power of the Misty Mountain orcs to back up the original Angmar, and they got beat so badly it took centuries to put an army back together. Also, Gondor is not held in check by Mordor for most of the 3rd Age, it takes the Great Plague in the 1600's to weaken Gondor's watch on Mordor, and then a few hundred years for evil to truly return there. And Sauron had plenty of influence in Rhun and Harad, those areas are in constant conflict with Gondor, and for all we know Nazgul were deployed there, since we have a very incomplete record of what the other ones were up to. Angmar was centrally located to be a threat to Arnor, Lindon, Rivendell, the dwarves... Harad & Rhun are off on the periphery of Middle Earth, they have to go thru Gondor to get to everyone else.

Mervynhaspeaked

22d

Good point about Angmar's geography. Tbf Tolkien has called the area of Middle Earth we see in maps as the "Northwest". This indicates that there's fairly more to it. For all know Sauron's power over Rhun, Harad and Khand was threatened by other nations beyoned them, hence the need to have Nazgul wreak havok/convert those lands

elessar2358

22d

They could have been doing so, but the other Nazgul were weaker without the Witch-king. They were confused by the sunlight and could not move far under it alone. I don't know how capable they would have been to run an operation like Angmar on their own without the presence of the Witch-king.

Mervynhaspeaked

22d

Good point, I was wondering about that.

jamiewvh

22d

To echo this, here’s the quote from Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring):

“But they had disadvantages… All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-king, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge. Moreover, their chief weapon was terror… So any mission on which they were sent could hardly be conducted with secrecy.”

The passage indicates that the Witch-king is exceptional in two ways: he can act alone during daylight without getting confused and he can cross rivers. We can extrapolate from this that he really is a separate class from the other wraiths, being able to plan and strategise independently from Sauron more effectively than the others, especially solo.

In the same story Tolkien tells us that Khâmul was in independent command of Dol Guldur for a while, but always accompanied by one or two other wraiths. Interestingly, he notes that while Khâmul was second only to the Witch-king in power, he was also the wraith most diminished by daylight.

So any alt-Angmar would probably be much more difficult to set up, requiring multiple wraiths, and most especially among Men and not Orcs since they don’t share the wraiths’ aversion to daylight. Once Sauron developed the Fell Beasts (which he seems to do relatively late) he was able to negate one of the Nazgûl’s chief weaknesses as battlefield commanders - their inability to cross rivers - whereas the Witch-king was able to do this the whole time, and therefore effectively lead Angmar’s armies against Arnor.

This also explains why people like Gothmog are still useful - they can get their feet wet.

Really interesting question!

NoCurrent2218

21d

I would say yes and Iron Crown Enterprises actually made a Nazgul supplement to their Middle Earth Role Play game. While not cannon, ICE were meticulous in staying true to Professor Tolkien's work.

Morthoron_Dark_Elf

21d

Khamûl the Easterling probably had the same general duties in Rhûn, but since the histories of Middle-earth are concerned mostly with the West, it is only conjecture. In the Third Age he was given command of Dol Guldur, so he evidently could be trusted with a leadership role.

Ropaire

21d

I suppose Dol Guldor is in a way though it's more like Sauron passing on an old stronghold to a favourite underling. Sauron got driven out of there but Khamul leads its rebirth and expands its power until the point where it can serve as a base for simultaneous assaults on Lothlorien and northern Mirkwood.

FingolfinDurinFeanor

22d

It is possible, but it is undeniably false until proved by lotr content. I like this idea, but the nazgul only traveled outside of Mordor when Sauron commanded them to.