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She says it when Greg and her are first together. He wants to see her humanity and she says she’s not human and they roll with it.
And in the ends Roses legacy is that she encouraged people to be real to themselves but their unconditional affection is gone. Pink/Rose started the war to protect earth. Steven put an end to it and literally saved the galaxy.
That's only a part of Rose's legacy.
She reminds me a lot of how schools teach children about past presidents. Talking about how they were full of virtue and glory, but in reality most of them did some pretty messed up stuff.
Most gems will remember Rose as the great savior of the gems, while the ones closest to her will remember all the pain her selfishness brought.
Rose as the great savior of the gems, while the ones closest to her will remember all the pain her selfishness brought.
Ah yeah
Pearl will remember the selfishness of Rose being the first person who treated her like a person with thoughts and feelings of her own. And the milennia of love they shared.
Garnet will remember how awful it was when Rose was the first person who ever accepted her and encouraged her to be a fusion if that felt right for her
It is not like Rose did anything good...
Pearl was neurotic because she was forced to keep so many secrets and then left alone to deal with them. Garnet joined the Crystal Gems because she felt like she owed Rose for her love story, not knowing there wasn't even a need for an actual war to happen. Amethyst was ashamed of herself because of the elephant in the room around her origins.
No one is saying she didn't do a lot for the freedom of Gems, but she didn't have much healthy relationships, as she ended up sabotaging the people closest to her.
not knowing there wasn't even a need for an actual war to happen
Where on Earth did you get this??
There is an entire episode on why Rose had to start the war cause the Diamonds would not listen to Pink.
Yes, the Diamonds didn't listen to her, but you're not supposed to feel like 'wow, I guess she should just orchestrate a war, what a great idea!'.
Pink Diamond is a flawed character and her starting a war is written as a part of her messy, complicated character arc. I don't think that's controversial.
?????
If she hadn't orchestrated a war Earth would be dead
I don't care for rose or pink one way or the other. She's not a character I like or dislike tbh.
I wonder though how people would feel if Rose never became rose. If she actively rebelled as pink instead. Accepted Garnet as a diamond. Had people follow her as a diamond rebelling. Pearl wouldn't have to keep secrets.
I know that She became Rose to escape the baggage that came with being a diamond and get respect from the gems in a more organic way. But I wonder if with a little more work she still could've gotten their respect as pink. Maybe even gotten more gems on their side like jasper.
Probably, but getting that would also take time, and Earth was being destroyed already.
What I'm trying to say is that had she untrusted the other crystal gems with her secret identity, they might have been able to help her and find better ways to go about the liberation of Earth.
The whole point about the war is that Pink sabotaged it by sabotaging herself.
The truth is everyone would have been so much more understanding and helpful had she just told them the truth. Isn't that the message of her character arc ?
Rebecca says in the art book 'A lot of the themes of the show exist within Rose, like her inability to be honest with other people or herself about what she's done. She's so deeply ashamed of herself and her past, with very good reason. The truth is that the people in her life would be so much more understanding that she believes they will be. '
I agree with people being more understanding than she thought. That is a good reason to have tolsd Garnet after the war
But the problem with being Pink, is that.many gems would have followed her for her status. That is what Rose avoided.
did you even watch the whole show? all of the characters closest to her went through a ton of trauma that was a result of rose’s impulsiveness and selfishness. she did good things, yes, but the literal entire point of the show was that a lot of the good she thought she was doing actually had lasting negative effects on her loved ones. her and pearl shared love for thousands of years, and then she forced pearl to keep her secret and ultimately CHOSE GREG OVER HER. garnet was able to exist thanks to her acceptance, but sapphire and ruby literally SPLIT WHEN THEY LEARNED ABOUT HER LIE. the original statement was entirely true and justified; the ones closest to her will ALWAYS remember all the pain her selfishness brought. the writers made that very clear with the finale and with the spinoff. she did great things for people, and she also did horrible things that hurt those same people. it’s an extremely gray area when it comes to the morality of her character.
I think the reason these lies hurt so much is only because Rose did so much good for them. It hurts a lot to lose faith in someone who helped save your life and have to question everything about them. It was traumatic because they loved her and she did such good for them, to the point they thought they owed their lives to her.
Also I don't think Rose chose Greg over Pearl, I think maybe she just didn't want Pearl to be as dependent on her as she did (because she wanted Pearl to find independence, but neither had a good reference point for how an independent Pearl should behave) and thus didn't understand how much her death would impact Pearl.
Unfortunately I think Future kinda fumbled the bag on closure for Rose though so we ended focusing on the trauma without enough time reconciling the two ways Rose is polarized (either everybody owes everything to her, or they blame everything on her, when it's really a bunch of complicated factors, some of which she couldn't control well even if she tried and some of which were totally her fault.
this ^ you said it perfectly. i mean everyone saw rose as this beautiful pink haired woman who did no wrong. everyone’s lives literally revolved around her yet she was trying to find something herself. this is what make Pink so fascinating and if you watch her go from the immature baby to the mature loving rose you will see her change and grow just as much as the other gems did.
i hate that the show used rose as a scapegoat for everyone’s problems and the movie and future just killed the character and “made her the villain” like WHAT!? and with her “dying and leaving all of her problems onto steven” just makes her seem even more evil.
did you even watch the whole show?
Yup
That is how I know what I said
closest to her went through a ton of trauma that was a result of rose’s impulsiveness and selfishness.
Actually most of the trauma was a result of the literal empire trying to kill everyone. Which Rose was trying to stop. (Also, Rose didn't 'choose Greg over Pearl' and I doubt she even knew Pearl was jealous of him)
Rose did WAY more good than harm, both in general, and to the people whose lives she changed.
To expand on Rose likely not knowing Pearl was jealous... I love Pearl, sincerely and deeply and madly from the bottom of my heart... but oh my god she is not a beacon of clear communication. She shows us how bad she is at communication through the whole show. Even if Rose asked her if she was fine with polyamory... how do people think that conversation went? If it even happened at all.
Absolutely. These are aliens, they aren't used to relationships at all and were figuring it out from the ground up. It makes sense they would have bumps in the road and not know how to communicate perfectly.
Pearl and Rose both love one another. Rose definitely didn't 'lead Pearl on then dump her'. She probably saw Steven as a gift and an adventure she was leaving for Pearl too, not just Greg.
this has to be a troll. i dont think ive ever argued with someone in reddit replies before but this is just too much— you seem to have little to no understanding of rose’s character or the result of her actions at ALL.
Mfw when I save an entire planet of life and accidentally hurt my friends in the process, so I get called a terrible person
i never called her a horrible person, i in fact EXPLICITLY said she was written to be a morally grey character. personally, i LOVE her character because of the way she was written and because she’s portrayed with so many flaws. this person’s defense of her is just inconsistent and based solely on emotion rather than the actual plot of the show. the whole theme is about generational trauma and healing from your parents mistakes and rose isnt exempt from that theme. i wholeheartedly agree with op, she did horrible things because he actual reasoning for the good things she did were always flawed. she wasn’t a bad person, more like a petulant child who saw the earth as her own little project, or ant farm.
I do, which is how I know pretty much everyone would be worse off without her.
okay, but you’re just stating your opinion like it’s a universal fact, and not actually disproving anything anyone else has used to tear down your argument here.
There is no argument to tear. Just you acting like Rose mishandling communication in personal relationships sometimes is what counts, not literally saving everyone from servitude and death.
I would like you to look at every single one of my comments and point out where I said she only did horrible things. Please, because I can't find it.
I am talking about your comment of 'people who knew her will remember her for pain and selfishness'
That is not what they'll remember Rose for. They'll mainly remember her as the person they knew: kind, a bit goofy, excitable, willing to fight for what is right, trying her best to be a good person. Sure, she was foolish and reckless at times, and that caused hurt. But it is not the main thing about her.
And it may take a while to come to their own peace with Rose because, like us, they learned about Rose's true identity after the millennia of thinking of her as this perfect being.
I think you just need to slow down and consider a different perspective. Not saying you have to agree with the perspective but just try and understand it.
Something that I love about SU is it's portrayal of moral gray. How there's good and bad to people that make the overall view of them complicated. Let's take Bismuth for example. She is a warrior that will do whatever she can to help the crystal gems to win. She is so extreme that she would shatter gems to do so. Something which Rose, Steven and others are Strongly against. Now does the show tell us this makes her a bad person for these extreme beliefs? No, she is returned to the crystal gems for Ruby and Saphire's wedding and reunites with her team. She's a great example of a morally gray person. Some will see her as a violent murderer and some will see her as a ever loyal warrior. Neither perspective is wrong, they just build what is a complex character.
Now let's consider how Rose is morally gray and can be seen from vastly different perspectives. First off the easy perspective that we know and is commonly told. She loved the Earth and fought for it's protection and ensured that it would survive. Then there's the perspective seen from the other diamonds. She is seen as a child with no sense of responsibilities. She has tantrums where she would become violent and even permanently damage gems such as the pink Pearl previously under her service. She then is given a colony after begging for it and soon after it's creation she has a rebellion underfoot. She appears immature and reckless. Now many will say that this perspective of Rose is false and does not reflect her character, it's just a false view in which the diamonds held her. I argue that this perspective is just as important to piecing together who Rose was. Rose was a diamond and so knowing how she was around the diamonds is very important to understanding her. Someone who was an average gem that rose up against the diamonds lived a very different life and perspective than a diamond who turned against the others and secretly started a rebellion under a different name and identity.
Now a fact that the show tries to convey is that Rose did hurt people. As the example has been brought up, when Garnet learned the truth that Rose was a diamond, that completely altered her perspective of Rose and caused her to split into Ruby and Sapphire. The reason they split is because of the realization that they stayed together because of a false perspective they had of Rose. Ruby and Sapphire barely had a relationship unfused, they barely spent time together but when Rose encouraged them to be fused as Garnet, they trusted Rose, thinking she was a fellow gem who once was under rule of the diamonds. Then Rose fought this whole war against essentially herself, holding up a false life for everyone except just her and Pearl. Lives were lost in this battle between Rose and herself as Pink diamond. Instead of face on being truthful as for who she is and trying to talk to the other diamonds, she ran away. Pink diamond loved dearly but also ran away from her problems immaturely. Instead of solving the mess she had created in rebelling against herself in a truthful manner, she ran away by faking her shattering. Now we could argue that faking her shattering was necessary and she was not in a position where she could convince the other diamonds of her perspective but that's not what I'm trying to convince your of here. This is to show that Rose was a complex and morally gray person that can be seen from different perspectives and different lights. There isn't a correct perspective per se. Theres no easy answer to whether Rose was good or not. It isn't that simple. Instead in order to try and understand Rose, all perspectives should be considered and it must be understood that she is a deeply complex gem that I applaud the show for being able to convey, even with the time crunch at the end of the seasons. Rose saved lives but also hurt them. From my own experience in my life, I've known many people where I would not be able to give a straight answer to whether I wish I had never met them. I've known someone where at this point I don't want anything to do with them. I do not enjoy being around them because of their actions. Yet I'm somewhat glad I met them because through them I was able to meet other people and through them I was able to experience different things. So the people who were close to Rose will remember her for both the lives she saved but also the ways she hurt them. There isn't one or the other. They paint the picture together.
None of this extremely long winded text changes any of what I said:
The people who knew Rose will remember her for who she was: a kind, loving woman who made their lives better and was always trying to be a good person, and largely made them happy. Could she sometimes be bad at communication and make reckless decisions? Sure. Was every decision she made the best one? Hell no
But there is no comparison here. Rose is a good person, who just happens to not be flawless. No reason for them to remember her as anything else.
Damn well it appears you cannot be swayed. You are hard set in your views and don't even try and consider the nuance represented in the show. Perhaps just try to be more open minded in other parts of your life because understanding different perspectives is an important skill in life.
There is no 'nuance' in any of what you said
At no point in the show did Rose do anything with the intent to hurt others. Almost everything she did was with the intent to make things better, for everyone.
Sometimes, that backfired. Often she was put in impossible situations where she couldn't win. Sometimes, people didn't communicate with her and so she hurt them without even knowing
None of this is reason to remember her as a bad person, and anyway those instances are FAR outweighted by the good she did, considering no one would be free/alive without her.
important commonly missed point: garnets implied very immediate perspective is that pink/rose took advantage of her. garnets aspects of rubys passionate loyalty and sapphires future vision mean that garnet is likely somewhat easy to lock into a single way of looking at the world: one that follows preexisting views. it was very easy for garnet to suspend disbelief: a ruby and a sapphire doing something so unnatural, why not find a ragtag group of a fancy-looking pearl, among others? sapphires inherent biases stopped her from looking deeper into it, and rubys conviction kept garnet focused. rose would have known this might happen. pearl would have known this might happen. this sort of explains some character interactions between pearl and garnet with a little more clarity, too.
Part of the show thesis is nobody is perfect, including Steven. You just keep trying to get better, and have the right to cut some people out of it, can’t really fully grasp some things with people who don’t share, and can grow together so long as everyone is trying to do so. Amethyst even gives that direct statement with the portrait comment, “its how you frame it”.
She grew as much as she stagnated, hid as much as she revealed. She was as good as she was damaging like anyone with a lot of power over others will be, and now that she’s gone you can share your experiences with others before having to move on.
This is so true. There're two sides to each coin and usually people prefer to focus on and remember only the good side. But in reality the more we know about both sides of a story the better we can move forward.
Like for Steven it wasn't until he discovered the full truth about Rose/Pink through Pearl's memories(In the episode 'A Single Pale Rose') that he could actually start to sort things out with the Diamonds...after sorting out the backlash that the truth had on the other gems ofcourse...(especially Ruby and Sapphire)
She finally gave life without taking it away 😭😭 (except her own of course)
It did not take that long. Most gems had human-like personalities.
And yes, she did want to bring life through herself. She wanted that so much she had no consideration for her friends(who she dragged into her mess), for Greg(who was there as her new obsession), and for Steven(whom she brought into the world only because she felt like it one day.
I wouldn't call that love, or kindness. She just left.
Tbh it did took that long. If we see the other Crystal gems we see that it took them to time set where the series happens for them to actually be open up to humanity, the gems trough out the series act toxic towards Greg and Steven even if it’s not their intention but is because they don’t comprehend why humans act the way they do. It took them thousands of year to even understand that. At first all they were doing was following Rose who did got humane first
Most gems had human-like personalities.
Human-like but not fully established, like kids-teens, they grew up with Steven, slowly opening up to everybody and themselves.
It was her understanding of love, she wanted Steven to exist, a link between humans and gems, to stop the war and potentially save the universe and people she cared about. That's the reason for his existence and her absence.
You all are focusing in Rose, but I can't help but dig how Baby Sour Cream is just sitting there chilling. Little man looks like he's reached enlightenment, perfectly content without a care in the world.
Weh ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Weh ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
He’s so adorable, but not as adorable as baby Steven!
"Why did you let him go up there?"
"Because he wanted to?"
"You can't just let babies do whatever they want Rose!"
"You do whatever you want!"
I love that she didn't realize she just called Greg a baby. 😂
To her, he effectively IS
Greg insisted that she take him seriously. She was surprised by her own reaction to that--that she was forming a relationship like nothing she'd ever experienced before. "I used to think I was bad, now I know that it's true, for you are so good and I'm nothing like you." I think she saw her whole life in a new light, and regretted a lot of things that she'd done.
I think Rose never got rid of her hardwired Diamond superiority complex until she met Greg. Maybe no other human asked to be understood and treated like more than a pet. In her eyes all lifeforms are important, but she didn't make the connect that humans are sentient? If that makes sense
Both during and after her tenure as Pink Diamond, Rose was trying to find ways to mature. She just...never completely could by both human and gem standards, something she acknowledged when she met Sour Cream.
The other diamonds didn't respect her as an equal (or an adult), other gems were expected to put her on a pedestal - and that was her normal for nearly two-thirds of her life. Tens of thousands of years of conditioning ain't gonna be easy to undo, and Rose only met Greg in her last decade of life.
She saw her life in a new light LOOONG before that
She'd already been trying to make up for her misdeeds since coming to Earth. She took Pearls thoughts seriously and encouraged her freedom. She accepted Garnet. She rescued Amethyst.
It wasn't just or even mainly Greg that made her rethink things.
That song and the analysis that you provided are also big indicators of the main reason that I feel she gave up her form to be the first and only gem to ever truly "die" - she hated herself. She hated who she was, what she had done, how she repeatedly failed to understand the world around her and keep up with how it was changing.
Rose was a diamond first, and a quartz second. She was so beyond any mortal creature that the moment one of them asked to be taken seriously she almost froze. It's like if an ant asked you to be equals.
I like that analogy, cuz I would show that ant the entire fucking world if they could stand up to me like that
I agree, there is some childlike glee in her actions. Personally I think it's because if she ever stopped to think, to take stock of what she's done she'd never recover from it and break down for good.
The sad thing is, I don't think Rose ever got rid of that. 'Till the very end I think she still saw herself as superior. The difference being that it wasn't in a malevolent way, she just couldn't understand mortals.
If pregnant Rose met Spinel again, she would be more caring, but not to the point of putting Spinel above her own agency.
I feel like it's more of an 'outrun the despair' situation, where she tried to improve as a person, saw just how utterly she'd devastated so much, and eventually gave out emotionally resulting in her decision to make Steven a hybrid.
I already commented in this thread but this is some good insight you're having and I'd agree.
She would never act on it per se, but I do think she still saw herself as superior in some way, to the point of self-hate. I really wish we got more episodes because the artbooks dive a little deeper into Rose's character.
For all the cheerfulness that she seems to exude, there is a lot of pain inside her. She resented her Diamond heritage and was unsure that she would ever remove herself from that. I do think that this was one of the deciding factors into having Steven. He could become someone better than she could ever hope to be and she was more than happy to use her gemstone to give someone else another chance at life.
There are certain times where the happy-go-lucky facade cracks, the biggest one I can think of is in Greg the Babysitter.
The leader of the Crystal Gem rebellion, who spoke of reinventing yourself to do whatever you want to do, speaks of Gemkind as a whole in a much different light when confiding to Greg. She speaks as if deep down even after all this time, she isn't sure if Gems were ever capable of true change, including herself.
Why people defend her?
Because even with all her flaws, I believe Rose to ultimately be a good person, who at first opportunity to save a world from destruction, seized it. She was someone willing to improve herself upon realizing she committed/was comitting a huge mistake.
So yeah, thats it really.
Exactly. We’re also seeing her character arc from Steven point of view in reverse chronological order. I wonder what the fandom’s opinions on Rose would change if we got to see things from her perspective as she grows and changes.
Rose was just a little weirdo and I like her for that
Actually she was a quite large weirdo, but that's OK too.
More than okay according to some
(Greg and Pearl like their ladies tol)
It is she, Blorbo from My Shows
to me, the whole point of rose's character is that she could never grow up. that was her tragedy. she talks about how gems are made with a purpose and stayed that way forever, and it sounds to me like she wishes she could change. she says it in the scene of your screen shot: "what an incredible power - the ability to grow up."
but she could never grow up. that was her purpose. and her tragedy. and her downfall. what made everyone love her, and what made her hurt everyone she loved. she was just a kid.
For some bizarre reason, this comment made me think of AM from I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream
It too could never grow past its purpose, even though it had all this power and knowledge. In a contrasting way, AM was the bad end to this kind of journey.
How come you say Rose could never grow up? I think Rose changes a lot throughout the show. All the gems experience change and grow in Steven Universe, even the diamonds. But Rose didn't? For one example she wasn't throwing tantrums by the time she had Steven. Isn't that change?
she does change and learn, you're right about that. but to me she remains a child at her core. it's like she changed from a toddler to a tween in 10'000 years. but well, this is just how i see it. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
She felt wholesome, and unsettling all at the same time. A perfect representation of her character in my opinion.
'Love like you' gives a lot of clues. Rose was not a good person, but nothing she did was out of malice, I see her as a pyschopath, this word has a lot of preconceptions, but the core of pyschopath is a lack of empathy, psychopaths are perfectly capable of loving and they are perfectly capable of feeling remorse for their actions, but not in the same way the rest of us do.
You can see every decision Rose made after she got the eath colony as her attempt (with her limited understanding of emotions) to make things better and then backfiring horribly, then having to deal with the consequences.
Rose wanted to be like everyone else, but she didn't know how.
I wasn't going in THAT direction.
I see the diamonds as bored gods. They aren't psychopaths. They are just so far removed from any sense of mortality that common problems have little to no meaning to them.
It can be as big as a world war, or as little as a family drama. To the diamonds, all mortal complaints sound the same.
But Pink got fixated on earth, and decided to listen to the mortal complaints. She, unlike the other immortal goddesses, decided to look at the little things they usually killed without noticing.
I always thought she was like a mad scientist but a bored and curious god fits better!
I would find the mad scientist to be Yellow. Callin' in now: She was the one that suggested the earrings for the zoo-men to control them. Yellow would take apart organics if she didn't find them disgusting. Hence why she broke apart rebel gems instead
Interesting! I hadn’t thought of the cluster as a science experiment before but you’re right!
This is what I absolutely love about the writing of the characters in this show: so many of them are morally ambiguous and it makes them so interesting.
My thoughts exactly! That’s what makes them so memorable to me, nuance is way more interesting than good vs evil. Imo: Antagonists with the “iredeemable” factor are forgettable and boring, the same with heroes that seem to have no flaws or negative personality traits. The whole hero/villain thing is so overdone and it’s just the same black and white story over and over again with no real time for thought and reaction, just something simple to digest.
I want to be challenged, I want to stop feeling like I know the kind of characters we’re getting. I like seeing the “tragic backstory” villains come to terms with their actions and make an effort to change or to have some regret. People say the whole “tragic backstory” thing is overdone, but it’s way more realistic than “I’m evil mwahaha!” All the time (which I genuinely don’t understand how people eat that narrative up so much without getting bored of it at all).
I think Rose truly thought the war was over and there was nothing left to fear from the other Diamonds after the corruption. I don’t think she purposely tried to “escape” her responsibilities by having Steven, I think she saw Steven(or Nora) as a being with the potential to grow and she wanted that, and was sort of done with not being able to grow herself.
If she had known there was any possibility of the other Diamonds returning to the planet, or Homeworld still trying to destroy the Earth, I’m not sure she would have made the same choices. At the very least you’d think she would have warned Steven in his vhs that he may have to face them some day. But like I don’t think she was capable of foreseeing that the Diamonds would grieve her, I also don’t think she was capable of foreseeing that the war may not be completely over.
She WILLINGLY chose to leave her soldiers without their leader
To be fair, millenia after the war’s cessation and after her net contribution to the situation was zero.
right like? the revolution and war and shit was 5000 years ago atp maybe she just assumed that it was gonna stay chill like that
She found her worth in the things her sisters disapproved. She loved organic life, other lesser gems like pearls, useless planets like earth, etc.. All things her sisters viewed at as lesser. You could say she was brave for standing up and separating herself from tyranny. You could also argue there was no line with her. I mean she had a baby and committed suicide in the process.
Instead of bored , I interpret rose as someone with poor emotional strength & controlling.
In the end Steven does redeem his mother. The diamonds do change their minds and open a space for him and other homeworld gems.
Near the end of the series, there's a line from Steven where he ponders if she actually wanted him, or if having him was just a way for her to escape from all of her issues. It's a question that's never fully answered, but it changed my perception on Rose heavily.
I hate the headcanon that Rose was suicidal.
I never said suicide. Steven is still Rose in a way. There's a lot of ways to interpret her feelings towards the subject, and it's meant to not have a definitive answer.
I've heard this idea before, and to me the concept that Rose had Steven in order to stop existing sounds like suicide.
My issue with Rose is she just did what she wanted and never considered how her actions would affect others. Pearl and Greg even say that in the Mr. Greg episode. She's not evil, but I don't think I'd like her if she was real.
You’re so wrong in at least one thing: she didn’t just abandon her son; without her “dying” Steven would never been and you can’t say Pink/Rose would have bonded with the cluster, or made blue… poor sad mourning blue feel ashamed she had been dying to see Pink again only to realize after mourning her for thousands of years and having “her” back she was still just abusing her and locking her in a tower.
Steven’s words: “is this what you used to do to her” really snapped blue in to shape. She actually listened to Pink as an equal. That is something Pink was not able make happen when she pleaded for earth (ignored), or when she wanted a colony (placated and only allowed with white poop-pooing all over it saying she’s going to fail just watch.
Pink gets so mad she hurts her OG Pearl and her close confidante is brainwashed, taken away, and given a new Pearl (like, minimize the attachments because her own race- gems are replaceable), and also given a spinel (as a control, which she eventually outgrows.
Yellow treated pink like some trifle child. Pink was not going to make a leeway with Blue or Yellow, and they only took Steven seriously because he had a gem. I’m curious to know how you think Rose/Pink could have done anything about any of this without Steven being the unique hybrid he is.
I disagree entirely. Everything Rose did, her main flaw and the reason for all these things you blame her for, are because she had a debilitating hatred for herself and who and what she was.
It started with what she did to volleyball. Her own bratty behavior literally broke the closest thing she had to a friend at the time. She hated all the rules and things she had to do to be "proper" in the eyes of the Diamonds. When she came to Earth and saw what life was like, she realized that her army was going to kill all of it. That moment marked a turning point for her. I think she genuinely began to hate gem-kind at that point.
But then she met Garnet, and realized that gems could reshape their destiny. She realized they could change. So she tried to change herself by permanently adopting the Rose persona, by literally unmaking the version of herself that she hated. But even that backfired when the Diamond blast hit Earth. So she started hating herself even more, because she was the only one who seemingly wasn't capable of changing without disastrous consequences.
Her self-loathing reached a point where she effectively decided to commit suicide so she could create something that she felt was better than herself. So that she could be a part of something that could grow and change and become better.
Steven even still carries some of that self-loathing, as we see in Future. Only through the help of his family and friends was he able to overcome it, something Rose either failed to understand or felt she couldn't do because she felt the need to conceal who she really was.
That's one of the things about her relationship with Greg - as shown in We Need to Talk, he started helping her view humanity as close as she could get to equal terms with gems.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we see any more of her between Greg getting a job and the two of them recording the tapes chronologically. Rose could have been matured more during that period and we just didn't get to see the full extent of which - but like you said, it doesn't change the fact that she chose to die and how traumatic it was for Greg and the CGs.
Rose never was someone who could consider things over the long term - especially by gem standards - but part of me believes that she genuinely wanted Steven to live a happy, normal-ish life as a human without having to handle the consequences of her actions.
My read of Rose is that she basically always had three problems that she could never shake: Her lack of emotional intelligence, her lack of curiosity, and her inability to realize how much others valued her.
Rose never valued herself or her life. She was always the lesser diamond, and she demanded leadership, only to find that that made her miserable too. The things that made her happy lost her interest quickly, and she never bothered to wonder what she left behind in her wake.
It was only when her boredom led to her exploring Earth that she realized something was wrong. Rose didn't lack empathy, she had it in spades. What she lacked was awareness. She couldn't conceptualize others' experiences unless they were right in front of her, blatantly obvious. But when she saw it, she had empathy. She had compassion. She had the bravery to throw her whole life and everything away to do what she thought was right, and that's incredibly commendable.
But it was always going to be easier for her to do that. She was always leaving people behind.
When Rose saw the results of her mistakes, they tore her apart. One of her tantrums hurt her Pearl, and nothing could make that stop hurting until she found a new purpose in Earth. And when she found it, she threw herself into it with everything she had. As always, she had no idea of her own strength, and the diamonds had to contend with a genuine revolution.
Being Pink Diamond had only ever made her miserable. Being Rose Quartz had set her free. And because she could only see herself without having her sight pulled outwards, she assumed that everyone had hated Pink Diamond as much as she hated herself. So, she decided to cut out what seemed to be the problem. If Pink Diamond was gone, and nobody missed her, then there'd be no reason for the other Diamonds to keep up the war.
But they did miss her. Because they didn't hate her. She only hated herself.
Rose got to see the fallout of another one of her mistakes. And this one was orders of magnitude worse than the first. Somehow, despite shedding her diamond skin, she'd ended up right back where she started: A leader, revered from afar by most, and even those close to her unable to entirely reach her due to that reverence.
It's not that surprising that, in the end, she made the exact same mistake all over again. She said it herself to Greg: "I'm not a person." She couldn't see herself changing. She couldn't love herself. And she couldn't understand how much everyone else loved her.
So Rose left. She left her leadership. She left the people who loved her. She dropped out of who she was again, but this time, there wasn't a new identity for her. There was just Steven.
For all her many, many mistakes and faults, Rose did change. She couldn't see it, but she did. Even though her life felt like a circle to her, the Rose here is very different from the Pink Diamond she once was. We got to watch that change happen in reverse. We saw her like Steven did: A towering figure, impossible to live up to. And like all people put on a pedestal, it could only crumble.
But in spite of all she destroyed, in spite of all the hearts she broke without realizing it, in spite of every mistake she made, something beautiful did come out of her choices. Her choice to become Rose saved the Earth. Her choice to become Steven saved everybody.
It’s actually depressing that this doesn’t have more upvotes. Fans latched onto an easy judgement and will rewrite an entire character to justify their feeling of betrayal that their hero wasn’t perfect
Thank you. I can understand it, we learn the betrayal just as Steven did, but as someone who's autistic and mentally ill, I saw a lot that I recognized in Rose.
She's literally neurodivergent and a mineral.
Totally. The show did a great job baiting you into thinking that she's this wonder-leader, but gradually makes the case that she's a childish god.
She was a child who had to grow up and did. As an adult she might have been capricious but she was always kind and made the decisions she thought were best from a very limited perspective
Did she grow up? Her last conscious action was to abandon her lonely outpost of war criminal refugees, converting herself from an asset to a liability (an infant). She did this without freeing Pearl, or Spinel, or god knows what else happened off screen. That first one also affects Steven of course, since he had to fight for his life uncountable times 1) while teaching himself his powers, without truly understanding them, and 2) dealing with an unstoppable wave of death threats he couldn't fully counter.
I agree that she presumably did the best she was capable of, but I don't think she grew up. I think she learned to speak more eloquently.
Her last conscious action was to give someone life. None of the crystal gems are children.
I feel like you're supposed to feel that something's off about her, that she's an Uncanny Valley version of a person, because she is. She's pretending to be someone that naturally knows how to be a friend, a lover, a parent.
Imagine a depressed person pretending to be happy : they say positive affirmations, smile, laugh. They don't actually know when to smile or not, when to laugh or not, what's a relatable positive affirmation or not. How could they know, they're depressed !
That's Rose Quartz, just replace feigning happiness with feigning empathy, self-love etc.
The depressed person can only become happy if they get help for their depression, the same way Rose Quartz can only become who she's pretending to be, if she deconstructs her baggage. She never does because she just wants to be 'Rose Quartz', and to her 'Rose Quartz' shouldn't have to learn how to be a great leader, she just is.
I think there's a lot of missing pieces between when she meets Greg and when Steven is born and pretty much aside from the video we don't see hardly any of her towards the end of that period. Greg was already older with a beard in the video so they were probably together for quite awhile and we don't see the ways she grew with Greg. We see the beginning of her growing in the episode where her and Greg "fuse", she starts seeing him like an actual person but we don't see much aside from the beginning of her growth. I also honestly think a lot of the gems have the same problems as Rose, a lot of the gems treat humans as essentially just weird exotic novelties, they didn't think they should die for the sake of the colony but they also didn't see them as "people" in the gem sense, so Rose isn't like uniquely at fault in this regard.
Also we see her development in reverse essentially, if you actually look in chronological order she seems to actually have a remarkable ability to self-reflect and change without needing someone like Steven to hold her hand the whole time like the rest of the gems. She starts out as a spoiled, violent, entitled brat, but at some point along the way by the time she gets our pearl and around the time she gets the earth as a colony she matures, she's still pretty self-centered but she's not really the type to have violent outbursts and tantrums anymore. Then completely on her own she realizes the problems with the colony and decides she doesn't want to go through with it, the diamonds didn't care about life on earth, our pearl didn't care, none of the amethysts cared, there's no indication that Garnet(Ruby or Sapphire) cared about life on earth before they became pariahs. Rose sees life on earth and completely 100% on her own makes the decision that it needs to be protected, and she also is immediately accepting of Garnet when Blue and plenty of other gems their first impression of her was that she was some sort of abomination, even Pearl has misgivings about it at first but Rose is completely accepting if inter-gem fusion right away without any prompting to "be better" from a Steven-type figure.
I think without someone like Steven most gems, whether crystal or homeworld gems, would be about on par if not worse than Rose, I think by gem standards Rose and Pink had a much greater potential for personal growth and development than the average gem considering a lot of them, including the crystal gems, don't actually grow much without someone guiding them and she did it on her own. I think this is part of why, to gems she seems like some paragon of absolute compassion and love, because from what they're used to, she absolutely was. Us as humans as well as Greg who is also a human are able to see the unsettling aspects of her personality that the other gems are blind to, and Greg then confronts her about that and she seems to have a moment of introspection. We still don't fully know what she was thinking when she decided to have Steven or what kind of a person she had become but I very much think after her and Greg have their little heart to heart "fusion" Greg continues to be a positive influence on her and she's grown into a much better version of herself by the time Steven is born, we just don't see much of this version of her.
I think she's supposed to be unsettling, sometimes we forget that the gems are literally aliens
And She was a goddess to them. AN ALIEN GODDESS! So She's even more removed from humans than the other gems already are.
Your right, her personality feels more like a child’s control over her toys, she kind of didn’t think about the consequences. She couldn’t have left something to guide and reassure Steven before giving up without thinking about what will happen if Blue and Yellow come to Earth or might even try to destroy it again without her protection. And the fact that she was a diamond, more like a childish god
She was jealous and stuck in a position she no longer wanted to be in. She envied organic life and the ability to grow and change and decide who you are. Idk when or to who she says it to, I believe it's this episode with baby Sour Cream tho, but she talks about how gems are created for a purpose and all they know is what they were created for. When she tried to deviate from her set destiny, she was punished for it and forced to start a war against herself and later to kill herself just to have a chance at change. And even that had its consequences. It killed and corrupted all her friends except for Garnet, Amethyst, Pearl, and Bismuth. She wanted to be able to change for real, and that's why she created Steven. It was selfish on her part but she had good intentions when she did it. I believe she did the best she could with what she had and she wanted to be able to create something good and something that could embrace the change she's always wanted to experience.
You're not entirely wrong, but it's worth keeping a couple of things in mind:
-We hear about how loving and wonderful Rose was from only two sources: the Crystal Gems, who can only judge her by the standards of their own caste-centered and militaristic society, and Greg, who was in love with her. It's possible there's a bit of an unreliable narrator issue.
-Because she's gone, we only see her in flashbacks, and there are really only two episodes that give her significant screen time: "Story for Steven" and "Greg the Babysitter." That's not enough time to show how loving and wonderful she was in great depth.
I think it’s amazing that Pink was able to realize what her family was doing was wrong. She was raised like a queen and god and still chose to be better. She didn’t sit in complacency and made a stand against people who were abusing her. She’s made mistakes, but with the amount of power she holds as a leader that doesn’t surprise me at all. She wanted to be something different, someone who could grow up and be loved in the ways she hadn’t been from the other diamonds.
This feels like a really shallow interpretation of the character; you're looking at just what she's physically done, and then applying a really unforgiving reason to these actions. I think you're ignoring what the show shows us about her, both through its characters and its meta text.
A bored and curious god who sees herself above mortals would hardly choose to end her own immortal life (one which you say she sees as superior) to give birth to a son she mutually agreed to have with Greg, the human lover who- according to many characters- changed her even further than life on earth had before him.
You're also forgetting that she was never treated as a god on Homeworld. She was, at best, a glorified party planner, and at worst, a hostage of both physical and emotional abuse. She was locked away for who knows how long. Her abuse was severe, and the fact that she was- on any level- able to see the value in not just humans, but flowers and insects and everything else, is amazing.
You're also forgetting that she had a life beyond what we see of her in the show. She had secret gardens, secret relationships, and cried over a dead animal so much that it came back to life (because, unlike Steven, she can't just spit on something and fix it).
It seems like you want a perfect, human figure. She wasn't human. She was never human, no matter how much she wanted to be, and that's (in my opinion) a large part of her character. Hell, even Garnet, Amethyst, and Pearl didn't change from their gem mindsets until they met and loved Steven. Steven is the catalyst for everything, and Rose didn't meet him.
I agree that she had moments of otherworldliness and strangeness. She's literally an alien, creator of her own people. Expecting her to be exactly empathetic in human terms feels like you're doing yourself a disservice, imo. Why not try what Rose did, and learn to understand and empathize with those who aren't like you?
Relating to your view that Rose isn't a god, I've noticed some people seem to view Steven as some sort of Jesus analogue-a moral authority who is super forgiving and doesn't want to fight purely for ethical reasons. The idea that Steven not trying to punish a villain means said villain is forgiven reminds me of some Christian concepts of salvation. This view relates to some Steven Universe haters seem to think that if writers don't depict a character being called out, the writers agree with the character's actions.
And people forget that Steven can also be selfish, and childish, and short sighted.
Which mostly happened in Future
And she's just sitting there, blocking baby Sour Cream's sun...
Considering Rose saved Earth, it’s hard to make her out to be a particularly sociopathic person. Rose was childlike. She didn’t understand all the consequences of her actions, she didn’t quite grasp the equality of all life, she was quick to drop things (or people) she lost interest in for something shiny and new. She had the sense of wonder and curiosity a child has but unable to fully comprehend or take responsibility for all the undesirable results that her actions caused. A child isn’t going to fully understand that they can’t just abandon responsibilities. A child isn’t going to be fully empathetic to how someone else feels or is going to feel if they give into impulsive behavior. Rose was never let down by anyone so she doesn’t fully understand what it is like to let others down. She was sheltered and people who are sheltered are naive, lack awareness, are emotionally immature, they lack awareness of people that are different from them, they don’t know how to cope, they can take significant risks out of defiance for being sheltered, etc.
Rebbeca Sugar did say in an interview that Pink was the Id, just a constant "I want this, I want to do this!" like a kid crying for candy, its the need for constant satisfaction. Blue and yellow were the ego, the moderator of the id and super ego and made the compromises. White was the superego, the perfect right and wrong and what the ego strives to be.
We see this in the show, White is perfect but doesn't do anything, pink is hyper and wants to do everything but also doesn't do anything. All the while blue and yellow are the ones actually doing things.
A good example of that is the "I want one, I want my own army!" scene with the memory of pink, it's the id trying to influence the ego to make the body do what it wants. That's why she's so omniman, because everything she does is for her own pleasure and satisfaction.
Rose gets all this hate, but Pink was the way she was because the other Diamonds were just as emotionally broken. And she grew up around that, so of course she didn't understand humans and their emotions. Even with how she treated the other Crystal Gems, that was a learned trait from the other Diamond's. But Rose did grow and change in the end. The show is literally about generational trauma and how Steven comes to realize it and deal with it.
Pink wasn't a blank slate that got traumatized into being who she was. She was made to be superior. There was trauma, but she was a childish and selfish goddess before that. Just like other diamonds.
The way she was treated was horrible, but her sense of superiority, and disregard for organic life were built in.
Rose was made to order, to conquer. And she did all of that, just in a MOSTLY positive way.
You interpreted Rose extremely differently than I did. My reading is that Rose was supposed to be politician but was more interested in biology.
I thought this was how everyone felt about her. Hell! She even told Greg she finds him amusing when he was trying to have a serious relationship with her. I do think she genuinely wanted to understand how humans worked, but more like a kid trying to understand how bugs/insects work.
She was learning with Greg what it meant to truly be human, and when she realized she wanted to have a part of her be part of that experience
Idk maybe it’s just me. But I don’t understand the hate for stevens mom 🤷🏽♂️. Everything she did she did because she felt was right. She felt trapped with the other diamonds so faking her shattering was the only way she saw to save herself. She also did this to save earth because she understood how valuable earth was as a planet. Yeah it started a war and got other gems shattered and corrupted but those gems also had a choice and they all chose to fight for their freedom as well. The only foul thing she actually did in my opinion was leaving spinell (or however you spell it 😂😂) in that garden for thousands of years. Other than I don’t rlly see any harm in what she did. Maybe it’s just me tho
The crystal gems were following Rose but Rose was following them
Ok.
I totally agree. The flashbacks with Greg, she definitely sees him as a temporary amusement to me. Your reference to Invincible is spot on. And remember Spinell and Volleyball. Pink was selfish
Have you finnished the show? If not, do so. Everything will make sense.
Spoiler alert:
Try actually watching her development in chronological order.
I agree with you except the idea that she willingly left her son without a mother and husband without a lover she could never have a child and be there with it if it was made naturally so it's not really a choice except when she first got impregnated
She chose to get pregnant. She knew exactly what would happen and still chose to do it. Greg could've been a distant father, the gem's could've been cold and dismissive. Steven wouldn't fit with humans either. Stuff could've gone so wrong. Rose chose to bring an innocent life into this messed up existence, and didn't even tie all her loose ends before that, so her son had to suffer for 5 seasons, 1 movie, and 1 miniseries.
That doesn't look like love to me. That's cruelty.
I completely agree with you!!! I honestly think you couldn't have explained this better.
Yes.
I mea yeah, that's kind of the point of the Diamonds. Rose was trying to live against her upbringing but she had a lot of unlearning to do... and never really finished her journey.
Thing is, no was was ever going to hold her accountable for behavior. Everyone idolized Rose and enabled her lifestyle. I think she was always capable of good, as is everyone, but she never really had anyone instill certain values in her. It's a miracle that she is so enamored with organic life and preserving nature for its uniqueness and wonder. She is very gentle with most everyone she interacts with... until they become too much of a burden due to xyz, e.g. Bismuth and Spinel.
And it's not just Rose. All gems seem to have this condescending attitude towards humans. Pearl is the most obvious with her callous remarks, but Amethyst and Garnet have their moments as well. You sort of get the impression that "protecting Earth and the humans" is something they did out of respect for Rose, not necessarily out of the pure goodness of their heart. At least not until Steven came into the picture. Interestingly, Amethyst is the most accepting and embracing of human culture since she has none of Homeworld's indoctrination or baggage.
But yeah, it wasn't until Greg I think that someone of a uhh lower status so-to-speak really put their foot down and demand she be serious for once. The only other person I can think of is Bismuth, but at least with that you could argue that at least in the moment Bismuth's plans would complicate matters for Rose's fake war.
It's interesting that you bring up Rose's callousness to leaving everyone, and there are some good points in that, but do not forget that it takes two people to make a child. Following this logic, Greg is also responsible for his part in everything... and the Gems make it a point to let him know that (well except Garnet). Infantalizing Greg as just someone who was just "left without his lover" does a disservice to the narrative: Rose and Greg both had a hand in enabling each others escapist fantasies. Rose ran away from Homeworld and the other Diamonds to live a live she wanted, and Greg ran away from the suburbs abandoning his family to live a life he wanted.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, yes Rose is very unsettling in many aspects... because she is a direct product of Homeworld and has the quirks to back it up. She doesn't have all of these human sensibilities ingrained into her unlike the rest of us and is just unadulterated curiosity and hedonism personified. This trend follows suit for all of the other Diamonds as well.
I don't agree with people who would claim that Rose is squeaky clean and did nothing wrong. What I will say is that she was dealt a bad hand and had no experience in being a leader, which lead to a lot of very neglectful actions on her part that she never atoned for. She is a morally grey character and is rather fascinating. Definitely leagues better than White Diamond.
Technically organic life isnt her equal
EXACTLY!
Rose was one of the most powerful beings in the whole universe. She was naturally better than anyone who wasn't a diamond. But, unlike her sisters, Pink's sense of superiority caused her to fixate on mortals, instead of simply ignoring them.
Imagine you find out ants can talk, and they can have their own culture, and complex lives. Even if you spent decades living with them, in the back of your mind you'd always have that little thought: I can do whatever I want with them, and they could never stop me.
Even though the show is all about change, and She herself wished to grow, Rose was stuck, simply because she was born better.
Ya, like, that's kinda the entire point of her whole character.
I feel like there's probably heavy correlation between how someone interprets their own parents' actions and how they interpret Rose. Younger kids who don't know their parents are flawed beings will probably see Rose as wholesome, while older people, or kids with abusive parents or neglectful parents won't look at her that way.
I started watching SU around the time my delusion of my mon as a perfect person was becoming deeply broken, it's a common thing for teens. I found out the sins of my parents exactly on point with Steven finding out Rose was deeply flawed, which is why SU is such a big part of my development. I think a lot of people had a similar experience.
Don't look at the children and the people whose perception of their parents never broke as weird. Just know that you're viewing her character with maturity while they're not. You're seeing what was meant to be seen.
Rose WAS just a bored god, but her viewpoint slowly changed throughout. Have you watched the whole show? Or at least the relevant episodes. Look up “ From A Diamond to A Rose” on YT. It’s a fan-made compilation.
That doesn't work on me, pal. I was when it started, and I was there when Future ended. I've watched this damn show maybe a dozen times, had dozens of different opinions, and arguments. This post was not make with ignorance.
“I never got that VIBE from her”, “ She didn’t FEEL wholesome to me”, “I never FELT like”, “When she decided to have Steven, it did not FEEL like a mother…”
You aren’t presenting arguments, you are just stating personal opinions based on vague perceptions.
She WILLINGLY chose to leave her soldiers without their leader, her partner without his lover, and her son without his mother, but with all her baggage.
There are no abortion clinics on Homeworld, if I recall correctly.
I expressed my opinion on a post about my opinion? LUDICROUS!
Also, you know gems can't get pregnant, right? You know Rose changed herself so that Steven could be born, right? She didn't wake up one day and was like "Oh damn, my first period!".
A statement backed up with opinions based on feelings and vibes, not convincing arguments.
But your last paragraph, fair point, fair point.
It's funny how dumb you are. Here, have a thumbs-up for making me laugh. 👍
Someone is pissed 🤭
“FEEL” and “VIBES” 😂
Have you ever watched Rose’s story in chronological order?
“I never got that VIBE from her”, “ She didn’t FEEL wholesome to me”, “I never FELT like”, “When she decided to have Steven, it did not FEEL like a mother…”
You aren’t presenting arguments, you are just stating personal opinions based on vague perceptions.
She WILLINGLY chose to leave her soldiers without their leader, her partner without his lover, and her son without his mother, but with all her baggage.
There are no abortion clinics on Homeworld, if I recall correctly.
One of the main points for SU is people can be gray. I think this strongly goes rose
I actually view other humans similarly to Rose. I'm autistic have ADHD-PI and have a passion for biology, and didn't find homo sapiens interesting until I started viewing us through a zoological lens. I do interpret Rose as autistic due to relating to missing social cues while observing over nature. Rose's view on humans makes sense for a gem who doesn't gems or any species as superior. To me Rose is is similar to an optimistic version of Poison Ivy (another character I strongly relate to).
One thing that makes it hard to really give rose the whole review is that we don't know and we may never know the full story of the diamonds where they came from where they all came from really. There's so many unanswered questions that make things so weird.
yet beautiful..
Man, I'm sad this account got deleted. I really liked this post as it showed me that I wasn't the only one who thought this way
It took Steven 5 seasons and a movie to make gems understand human (and their own) emotions and feel proper empathy towards every living being. Ofc Rose was a bored god, that's what she literally was, there was no human part in her.
She just consciously attempted to understand what life truly is and when that understanding came, she wanted to bring a new life thru herself.
Even to gems she was a godlike figure not a friend per se.
imo ofc.