Not enough people are talking about it. White folks generally see family as a wellspring of harm and trauma. See also -- antinatalism and all that. People are becoming deeply and spiritually anti-family, and it's a moral cancer right at the heart of our society. The sudden normalization of estrangement is also part of this. A lot of white millennials are genuinely divorcing themselves from the idea of family as a good thing.
There is a cynically anti-family rot deep down inside the core of white middle class culture
...saucyIt's also okay when I do it
and me. they started it.
Isn't this mostly just the terminally online "folx" crowd?
I feel like normal people mostly still love their family, it seems like most of the family "going no contact" I hear about is from reddit or twitter because mom or dad voted the wrong way or something
I think you see it in less extreme ways compared to “no contact.” For example, both of my siblings want to move bc we live in a red state and they want to live in a more liberal/progressive city. We have a good relationship and care about each, so it sucks that my kids won’t have aunts, uncles, and cousins up here. I understand why people want to move away from their hometown, but it does influence the kind of relationship you have with your family.
and they want to live in a more liberal/progressive city
You should tell them to come here and ask us how the people of RSP like living in progressive areas
tbh I think most of us would agree the shorter drive to the abortion doctor hasn't really been worth the constant car thefts, break-ins and homeless attacks, and I'm sure you can get MDMA just as easily in red cities
As much as I bitch about the city I live in, having lived in conservative places, I'll take liberal bullshit any day.
Really? Why?
I want to ask a more detailed question, but that's pretty much it lol, what is it you dislike about conservative areas and like about progressive areas? I know most of you guys are east coast so I can respect that there are things I don't understand about living in places like NYC, west coast is very different
I've lived on both coasts. Much prefer the west. It's mostly a cultural thing. If you care about culture, art, etc, conservative areas don't tend to have people who care about those things. If you do prioritize things like that over things like fishing, football, and whatever mass produced slop Disney and the country music labels are pushing out, you will be 1) lonely and 2) ostracized. I'm not saying that these are universal truths, and that there aren't people in rural areas of red states that are into philosophy, but these are generally true.
Because educated people tend to flock to cities, even if the average lib is annoying, you are more likely to find "your people" in a coastal city. Most of my social circle have interesting careers. Most of us are some type of artist, scientist, engineer, etc. doing something cool, and people doing those sorts of things tend to congregate on the coasts.
And as dumb as the liberal thing about taco trucks is, it is nice to have some cultural diversity around. About a 15 minute drive from me is a town made up predominantly of immigrants, and a teacher told me their school district has around 100 different languages spoken there. If there's some sort of ethnic cuisine I want to try, I can find it here. Compare that to conservative areas where your options are Applebee's, Chile's, or if you're lucky some restaurant that's 10 years behind the trend of what's going on on the coasts. Really what it comes down to is conservative areas are just boring.
Plus California is just the prettiest state with the best weather and it's not even debatable.
Very well put.
if you are the type who idealizes living out on a homestead with no one bothering you then of course liberal cities aren't your thing.
I'm not saying that these are universal truths
Ya, I guess at the end of the day experiences are what it comes down to, and if you've only met goyslop consoomers in rural red areas, wanting to avoid them isn't unreasonable.
I've managed to find a lot of decent, interesting people regardless of the local politics, but the difference between homelessness, crime and cost/taxes is shocking the first time you realize that not every part of the country lives this way lol. I also find Busch Light NFL people more tolerable than Funkopop Disney adults too I guess
Food trucks and scenery tho for sure; I can get shawarma, pho, general tso, tikka masala and menudo within a few steps of each other, and at the THAT'S really all that matters, ethnic food is curing my xenophobia. Actually, Utah is pretty dope too, but who wants to live in a beta landlocked state
For what it's worth, I ran into far more Funko pop Disney adults in red state cities than coastal cities. That really seems like a flyover state phenomenon. Fair amount of overlap with hicklib types. Most people I know in coastal places, especially CA have hobbies beyond consooming. Seems to be the sort of thing people fall into when there's nothing else going on.
Utah is pretty dope though, and underrated. Mormons are weird and culty, and seem predisposed to being into funkopop Disney shit. The nature is great though, only loses points for being uninhabitable for a couple months out of the year.
For what it's worth, I ran into far more Funko pop Disney adults in red state cities than coastal cities. That really seems like a flyover state phenomenon.
Laughing at idea that we are all soymanning each other across the urban-rural divide. “No u are the Disney funko adults, not us”
No no. I'm the Chad, you're the soy wojak.
Fishing and football. The horror
Yes. Fishing and football. And nothing else.
Church! There's always church.
And alcoholism!
Shit I knew I forgot something. Yeah you have evangelical prosperity doctrine bullshit.
and walmart.
interesting people ideas art things to do vibrancy fast pace, new different people from a variety of backgrounds to meet. i’ve lived in rural areas and everyone e knowing everyone and homogeneity is not all it’s cracked up to be.
lol. My liberal cities are really nice and fun. You see what you want to see though.
isn’t liberal cities redundant? all cities are liberal.
I don't know how liberal places like Nashville, Cincinnati, and Cleveland are I just assume they aren't very liberal. Never been.
I know only one person who went no-contact with their parent as an adult, and her mother is legit a crazy person. Even that doesn’t seem to stick, as I still hear stories about the mom from time to time. I’m late 30s though so maybe this is a younger millennial thing.
I've met several people in my life who went full no contact with their parents for being Trump supporters. I actually never expected to see them in the wild. I also met one dude, who was like 55 years old, who straight up wont talk to his kids because they refuse to disavow Elon Musk as a fascist or whatever. That was the weirdest one because they were a potential client so I had to go along with it and not question how fucking stupid that was.
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They are declining at a higher rate among non-whites tho...
those dont matter xx
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Both. Its fallen pretty much everywhere. In the US the biggest decline have been among hispanic women.
narcissism and pathological self absorption has been an epidemic in american society for a couple generations now, and that tends to make really shitty neglectful parents. the kids are ending things on the outside but the parents were uninvolved and gone long before that.
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Absolutely, I agree that the trend of rejecting everyone around you for minor perceived slights perpetuated and encouraged by terminally online therapification freaks is rarted but material reality has got to be a driver for a lot of antinatalism, not abstract rejection of family.
Anyone can walk outside almost anywhere in the US and see that shitty fastfood is 25 dollars, it's 10+ degrees hotter outside than is normal 20 years ago, domestic politics is pure circus, and most people will rent until they can't anymore (lol retirement) and probably die in the fent camps living in a donated tent. Who wants to subject a child to that without even considering if they could afford it to begin with.
Our whole lives (elder millennial here) we have been learning about various tipping points and watching alarms going off for everyone who has any real knowledge about any of this but never for anyone who actually has real power to affect our trajectory. Watching adults and leaders do absolutely nothing year after year and then learning how truly powerlessness the individual is to do anything on their own is a very dark pill indeed.
Couple that with some basic knowledge of human History and it's pretty hard to imagine any near term future where the extra 4+ billion people in the way of continuing to perpetuate consumerism without turning everything into death valley (maybe too late regardless) need to go. Wonder how that will play out.
Even if the goal is just to put everyone to work in pod city and and eat the bugs or whatever powerful nations and coalitions are going to start running into very serious conflicts over dwindling resources. I think a lot of people know this but are trying to constantly forget or ignore it because there is no purpose in fixation. It seems like there is a strong chance that people living today and/or soon after will see some true horror (and of course many have and are) this is already happening today just likely to intensify and spread.
I love my family, it's the most important thing. I am deeply saddened that I will likely never be a father. It's a very unfortunate thing but acceptance is the path forward for me. Why would I care if the unwashed masses of "undesirables" inherit the earth? They can live underground at the amazon prime internment camps or whatever, im still responsible for my choices and I don't want to see my child suffer, or even experience a world that doesn't offer up the same mysteries and joy that have made life living for me.
What kind of weird exceptionalist EGO trip is it that people absolutely need to see specifically their genetic material continue onwards. I honestly don't get it. Ultimately if an absolute ton of people choose the same it may feel like a curse at first but I doubt that would prove out in the longer term.
The thing is there was never any guarantee the world and life your parents/grandparents/etc would leave for their children would be better than that which came before. You got lucky, we all did. The rapid pace of technological progress in the 20th century is an aberration on a longer time horizon, and it’s evident we really don’t know how to restructure our society to suit it. I’d say if you have the means to guarantee your kid at least a comfortable and satisfying life, you should consider having kids. It’s not like after Hiroshima a bunch of people haunted by the spectre of nuclear annihilation decided to extinguish their bloodlines; the exact opposite happened.
The thing is there was never any guarantee the world and life your parents/grandparents/etc would leave for their children would be better than that which came before
That's literally been the whole liberal democracy promise for almost 100 years.
>Make childhood and adolescence de facto illegal.
>"A bloo bloo bloo why doesn't anyone want to have kids?"
Boomers and old X'ers were allowed to do things like play outside or get in trouble, even expelled, without their lives being ruined by the financial-state one-two punch. The All-American adolescences in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Animal House, and Grease are impossible now, thanks to boomoids' legislation banning things like going outside unattended or going to college without your parents co-signing loan agreements.
The definitive film of post-Boomer America is They Live. Life has been completely reduced to endless slop non-production.
The funny thing is that They Live missed the mark on antinatalism ("MARRY AND REPRODUCE"). It was just a little too early to be hip to the "just import endless Third Worlders" doctrine that would characterize later neoliberalism.
Those are literally only American things. No other country is making parents sign off on their adult children going to university or making it illegal to go outside.
Where is it illegal to go outside unattended? I see unattended teenagers walking around all the time (phrasing).
Not teenagers, but here's a mom from Texas who was arrested for making her kid walk half a mile home. She was arrested, prevented from seeing her kids, and had to plead guilty to child endangerment. She had to resign from her position at a pediatric sleep consultancy firm. She's also been barred from finding work as a teacher.
That is so messed up mein Got.
it was illegal in my hometown for anyone under 18 to be anywhere but home, school, or work between 9am and 3pm on weekdays and after 10pm every day
but also shit like this happens all the time
That’s insane
There's something weird going on rhetorically when people are like "the world is safer than ever but kids aren't allowed to go into a grocery store aisle unaccompanied" as if that's counterintuitive
-- like yeah, if the world is safe then it's irrational to be scared by your own shadow, but the other interpretation is that the reason that it's so safe now is that children and teenagers live in a totalizing surveillance society and that everything a person does now is monitored with ring cameras, social media, and police that will fuck your ass up. I don't get why people think the two aren't connected. "Things are safer, why are we so afraid" is only logical if you think there's no connection between what we do when we're afraid and the outcomes on safety.
My state has driving curfews for under-18's.
That’s more of just a way for cops to tell kids that they need to go home when they catch them doing something else illegal. There aren’t roadblocks asking “papers please” for rogue 17 year olds at night.
If you're pulled over and ticketed after curfew you get an automatic license suspension. If you're a 17 year old man with points, get ready for $800/month insurance on a Camry.
My brother just graduated and after being expelled his freshmen year still got accepted into plenty of colleges. The local kids in my neighborhood are still absolute hooligans aswell this comment seems a bit out of touch. Boomers forsure ruined a lot but there’s no shot anything they’ve done has been worse than phones/iPads for children.
In the UK at least it just seems more stratified in a lot of places. Kids are either completely locked down or they're out chopping each other up with machetes. We live in Birmingham and giving our kids freedom without having them run wild has been a very, very delicate operation at times.
We live in Birmingham
Would you consider moving somewhere safer such as Mogadishu or Kabul?
I mean I wouldn’t want them growing up to be complete softies
the only places where it's "de facto illegal" to be a child are like malls and gas stations in Chicago or Philly where they don't allow anyone under 18 in after 3pm because a bunch of white cishet male teenagers would go in groups of like 20-30 and just steal and knock shit over and fight the cashiers lmao
Thank goodness you specified these males were cishet so that I didn’t think you meant gay guys and trans men
I like how you ignored the one social identifier that was actually the opposite of who is doing this, very coy of you
I live in the Philly area and they closed the malls to kids past a certain time because every friday night after school there would be fights or shootings involving mostly minors lol
Yeah I live down the road from the fashion district in Old City and instead of fighting and shooting each other inside the mall they just do it on the front steps of the mall lol.
It must be common enough to where Jonathan Haidt literally started a non-profit that does legal and advocacy work to make it so the state cannot punish or refer parents to CPS for normal things like going ot the shops alone or playing in the street etc.
It's not "illegal" just not allowed. In the 90s, the age of unsupervised play began at 7. Today, it's 12
this atomization has been a project for decades and no degree of nanny state will fix it
The state is the only force than can stand up to the private business interests that are creating and magnifying it.
not only is this a cucked way to live but the type of state you're entrusting is giving more power to those private business interests lol
What’s cucked is submitting to private business interests in the first place, and not only does the state not necessarily have to serve those over the public interest, it as the representation of the collective will is the only force able to stand against private business interests in the first place.
preach brotha/sista
The state is not us. A socialist state is also not us, just the same way a king isn’t us - they are their own structures that we live under
Social ties can neither be replaced by the market nor by government agencies
The “structures that we live under” largely determine our social ties. The fact that you don’t seem to recognize that exposes you as yet another neoliberal individualist.
And yes, our social structure is us. It’s just not you and the people you consider accessories to your life, which is the real problem you have identifying with it.
Any lip service you pay to the importance of culture and community is undermined by being completely blind to what constitutes them.
That's not what I'm talking about. The state, any state, can't be us purely due to structural reasons. Regardless of your philosophy, there is a small circle of decision-makers and a very large circle of decision-takers
Culture and community are organic things, but they are not a state and can't be a state. There will always be a decision-making apparatus that functions in a hierarchical manner - formal or informal. There is no way around the issue of organisation
You can achieve fake ideological identification and cheer on the leader(s). You can act like the leader embodies everyone, but it's simply not the case
There will always be a decision-making apparatus that functions in a hierarchical manner - formal or informal
Do formal and informal decision-making hierarchies not exist within cultures or communities?
> You can achieve fake ideological identification and cheer on the leader(s). You can act like the leader embodies everyone, but it's simply not the case
This is the individualistic framing popping up again. You think that since these “structures we live under” are not you, they must be someone else. Some figurehead. Or maybe some cabal. The fact remains that you are a part of your economy/state/social structure just as much as you’re a part of your culture, no matter how much you might feel subjected to either.
I’m not just talking about voting, or “choosing” to pay your taxes. There is both a structural and cultural component to any political philosophy. The two are inextricable, and submitting to one usually means submitting to the other. Zizek made a point about how whenever there is some rebellion against the social order, people often act out by looting consumer goods, electronics, etc. And within this is almost a repressed desire to conform to the consumerist culture they ostensibly rebel against.
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Don’t you have a child bride to molest, libertarian?
soviet nanny state did fucking fix it
actually it didn't. it was so ineffective that citizens were forced into highly complex networks of interdependence whose power good or bad persists to this day
I think this is actually wrong -- read about Swedish Theory of Love. The so-called "nanny state" reduces mutual reliance in favor of state clientelism.
Of course not, the nanny state only makes it worse
Not that I disagree but this is such a chapo comment
Watching zoomers grow into adulthood has black pilled me on kids.
i’ll have you know my parents are mostly proud of me
How so
If it helps, I’m a zoomer who loves my parents with all their flaws
"Folks"
Post ignored, OP blocked
Anti Natalism is a core tenet of modern progressive leftism which makes it incompatible with any real future
The problem with anti-natalists is that they are so consumed with their own anxiety of doing any wrong to the world that they just allow themselves to go extinct meanwhile the people who literally do not care about anything except getting theirs are immigrating to the countries where people are stopping reproduction and having 3+ kids and a few on the side too. The 'great replacement' theory isn't replacing whites with non-whites, it's replacing neurotic nerds obsessed with their moral responsibility to the world with amoral slobs who don't care about any future besides their own
Basically the Shakers. Really profound moral philosophy, but doomed from the day they adopted the no sex rule.
A lot of them don't care about their own future either, hence the mess.
Schopenhauer: a leftist.
The future belongs to nihilistic, urban atheists that don’t even reproduce - haven’t you heard?
Is it, really? Outside of fringe internet discourse?
It's not that they are true anti-natalists but more that the functions and ideas of modern progressivism leads to people having zero to two children and in general modern white culture creates a sterile child unfriendly environment.
But a lot of progressive people straight up say that they won't have any children because of left wing causes "the state of the world" and global warming being big ones.
In Europe countries like Poland, Italy and Russia suffer from the lowest fertility rates, despite (?) being cultures with high religiosity and traditional family values.
I think the main culprit is modern society in general. People want and need (!) to do a lot, but have limited money and time. Among richer countries the situation is actually slightly better in countries with feminist and social democratic tendencies, since those tend to make the work-life balance better. But even there the fertility rates have dropped very low now.
Not sure what to do about this. Sure many leftist are concerned about climate change, but other people are concerned about other things (crime, economy, culture etc). Few look brightly on the future and thats of course a big issue.
I think its good if we have a declining population, but it should decline slowly, fertility rates should be around 1,8 or something like that, not 1,5.
You are right - it's not whatever "trend" it is - it's just that the current person sees that socio-material conditions are getting worse for the next generation, rather than getting better.
It's mostly economics, safety, and opportunity.
seething against online antinatalists is so weird. it says it in the name: its a "problem" that fixes itself.
Not if they become administrators, teachers, members of thinktanks etc.
"administrators" is vague but in government there is still a child tax credit and paid family leave.
teachers doesnt make sense since they're literally teaching children. no kids = no job, and it doesnt matter what they believe at home as long as it isnt spreading gay propaganda.
most of the thinktanks are the opposite.
Antinatalists are pussies who have not taken their fears and concerns about nature to their logical conclusion, the Eduard von Hartmann-pill: If we decide to extinguish Will by ceasing reproduction of the human species, that does not actually prevent the striving of Will which will reform on this planet and many others and continue the cycle of suffering. No, if you’re truly committed to ceasing suffering, the human race must harness enough power (through the development of Reason) to eventually be able to end the universe, or at least our world (this is basically just the End of Evangelion). And in the meantime, despairing is pointless and we must strive to cultivate happiness and goodness, whether or not we see it as illusory. Individual asceticism is unproductive cowardice.
White folks generally see family as a wellspring of harm and trauma
Get off the internet.
People can imagine all sorts of things except not liking your family
Capitalist individualism is an atomizing and alienating cancer.
I made the same points to my friends some time ago and they told me to touch grass. They weren’t wrong
Not trying to be racist but it’s mostly white i hear that “cut off family” or have thin relationships with their immediates. They also have no qualms with putting them in retirement homes. Brought this is up before in rs groups with a bunch of justifications for it.
I get that people want to defend their race or whatever but it’s hilarious seeing the “not the good whites” reactions here. Have an Indian defend themselves and its mostly met with vitriol lol
They love posting the same crime statistics about other races but as soon as someone brings up their lack of seasoned food or them throwing their parents into nursing homes they can't handle it lmao
The great rift was between boomers and their parents. They couldn't understand each other.
Younger generations do not have the same family conflicts to my experience, and zoomers tend to be best friends with their parents. I would say they are very family oriented in average.
My own millenial generation tend to value adventure and exploration more than the conservative zoomers and typically don't live in the same town as their parents, but bad relationships are uncommon. All millenial parents I know invest a lot of thought and time in their parenting and love to play and do activities etc.
Zoomers are the most pro-family generation in a long time. They hang out with their parents a lot and they get married earlier and more extravagantly (gen x and boomers tend to see marriage as an old fashioned religious ritual, I have several collegues in their 60s who have been in a stable loving relationship for 30 years who aren't married).
Pretty much everyone combines career and parenting, but prioritizing career is something associated with some middle class boomers and right-wing gen X:ers (gen x is the most neolib gen).
The average leftist and feminist is pro-family I would argue.
This is from a swedish perspective.
It's because they hated their parents and fallen for the capitalist lie of individualism.
Nu whites are extremely weird. I remember seeing a thread on all a year ago about AITA for not calling my elderly lonely parents and all the top comments were 10k+ upvoted saying that you should hate your parents and don’t owe them anything.
Weird culture. If my parents were American white instead of Italian immigrants I’d probably be a freak
I read this comment on a post earlier
Get off the internet and stop hanging out with fucking losers, this is <20% of the population. The real problem is people can’t afford more than one kid anymore
I've noticed that commercials can't have a monogamous and same-sex couple anymore. Like it's some affront to Mollock or some shit. I'm doing it now, but last polling stats I saw had 90%+ of every race wanting to reproduce among st their own.
In my case it’s a mutually beneficial situation for all parties involved. I think my parents fall into a large camp of Gen Xers who didn’t really even want to be parents but weren’t aware there were other paths available to them. The white picket fence thing was just what people did back then. I may have initiated our low contact but they’ve never seemed bothered by it.
Oh wow, this news is devastating.
Who's behind it?
🤏🎩
You don’t deserve the downvotes king
thanks I needed that
tbh I just wanted to use the funny emojis and honestly no regrets
Glad to see the tides turned
Because boomers, Xers, and Millenials are all awful at parenting, zoomers probably won’t buck the trend
What, you man capitalism?
middle class where?
demographic transitions correlated with rising wealth are pretty much a universal constant across the world, no differences in culture or government policy or online discourse or anything seem to be able to make a dent in it. the scandinavian welfare states have not been able to get their mommas breeding. the theocracies of the Islamic world haven't had much luck either. the birthrates of harmonious Orientals and selfish burgerlanders are dropping practically in lockstep. most countries with fertility rates above replacement are just shitholes, and the less shitholey they become the less children there are. it's everywhere, and the only common denominator is dollars, cents, and consequently infant mortality. meanwhile getting pregnant and giving birth to a child is the most painful and physically dangerous thing the majority of people are ever likely to do, and you would be a dufus to blame any woman for wanting in practice to avoid that as much as possible, despite any tradvalues she may hold
Wow that sucks any ways I'm going to stay true to my birth country and just pop out kids with abandon.
I dunno, still better than those who are forced to rationalize abuse from family or how being beaten really taught them lessons. American individualism and shiiiiiet do be like dat. Blame Emerson, protestants, and being able to afford to live on your own. Bet tons of non-whites still follow the same Oprah/Nicole LePera/Gabor Mate trauma culture trash. They just can't do much due to shaming from collectivist cultures or, for those who lack culture, economic necessity. Hardly a virtue.
Most tragic thing this week.
I was listening to a 38yr old WASP woman kvetch on the phone about wanting but possibly never having kids, while still having the good worker bee mentality to insist she would definitely get a nanny when it happened.
They don’t even have the moral imperative to spend time w/ their kids. Just to have them.
Something to do with narcissism
def a big part of it is this idea that newer generations are so morally ahead of our parents
Noticing the antinatalism is anti-semetic.
The nationalist myth of the nuclear family and its consequences
When the average white middle class family puts grandma in a home the moment she becomes inconvenient, when families stop supporting children as soon as they turn 18, and when plans to change cities don’t include plans to keep your roots strong, it leaves the impression that family is a shallow institution.
Say what you want about Indians, but we don’t have the problem you’re describing (except maybe smart young women from conservative families). My family has a tradition of scouring the globe on every holiday to remain connected with every fringe of our family. This includes taking in nieces and nephews for weeks or months at a time. This extends to the blackest of black sheep. Cousins are treated like brothers, your friend’s grandma is your grandma, and your mother’s friend is your aunt.
There’s also this cope about one’s “chosen family” that supposedly exempts you from duty to family. I personally love the idea of having a chosen family (especially because I’m constantly moving around the world as an academic), but that’s meant to be a complement - not a substitute - for the real thing.
i dont know what you're talking about, where i live tons of millennials have cute little families. it is a minority of obese they-thems who do not. maybe leave the city? idk.
“folks” opinion disregarded. also my fam is trashy irish catholics so I’ve never dealt with this problem at all its more the alcoholism and pressure to have children
or maybe the nuclear family concept just doesn’t work.
I don't talk to my batshit mother, but my grandma and I are very close. Same with most of my siblings, my other grandparents and uncles/aunts. But then again, it's easier to have relationships with mother members of the family when everyone silently agrees that you iced out someone who deserved it
this post I saw today sums up everything that’s wrong with this kind of thinking it’s honestly so sad
Of course he has a dead end job and refers to his gf as "his partner". That poor woman is going to die alone without proper care.
The (((screen))) tells whites not to have kids so they can be replaced, im sorry but can we stop pretending we don't all know this?
I’m a literal antinatalist so
Good, it makes White people easier to replace. We Indians stick with our toxic families because that's what all families are. lmao at White people pussying out because their mom criticized their wife or whatever.
you're not wrong but still downvoted because you're a filthy street shitter, DO NOT REDEEM
barely communicating with your parents is ok when i do it