Reactive dog freaks out when guests stand up or walk away

Question

I was very proud of my pup yesterday - Loki (border collie, 9 months) is very very VERY reactive to people. He lunges and barks and looks pretty scary. However, we had 2 guests over who he didn't know, my brother in law (who he adores) and his dog (who he also adores). So, lots of big feelings, between the excitement of seeing some of his fav people and the terror of meeting new people.

Since he's a little toy addict, we brought our new guests into the garden and got them to play fetch with Loki. A few hours into the night, Loki was bringing the guests his toys all night and kissing their hands for attention. Given how terrified he is at people, this was so encouraging to see and I was over the moon! However....

Every time they stood and turned their back on him to go to the bathroom, he would bark/lunge at them. And yet he wouldn't do this when they were walking towards him.

I started using DMT (distraction, mark, treat) but I was wondering everyone's thoughts on this and how to deal with it?

in reactivedogsby SageAndScarlet

89%

1mo

accupx

1mo

As a herding breed, this is not “reactive” and more likely instinctual. Positive conditioning can help.

Years of breeding herding traits make it hard to resist a large mammal rising up, turning its back, moving away!

Outdoors, they showed their value/usefulness and camaraderie. Rising to leave, they became the herd. Someone will chime in with how to have the guests prepared with treats and able to put him through some behaviors/rewards - check r/dogtraining

LB-the3rd

1mo

100% this. I'd just add instead of having guests treat/reward this behavior, you teach down/lay/wait, then have the dog circle back to you and lay (down) at your heel.

Ireallylikedogstbh

1mo

Our situations aren't exactly the same so I don't know if this will be helpful, but my dog is also very reactive to people/guests because he is blind and feels vulnerable and knows that sometimes the best way to make the scary thing stop is to use offence as a defence. I started off with giving the guests treats to give him, but it didn't really work. I realised that was because I was putting him in a situation that was making him uncomfortable in that although he wanted to (and would) take the treat, the treat was still coming from the thing that was making him anxious and that he wanted to avoid/chase away. Shutting him away in a safe space with his bed and something to do also didn't work because he couldn't relax as he knew guests were in the house (YMMV though) . Now I let him be in the room, but I give him something "lengthy" that he likes to do in his own space not near to the guests like a licky mat with frozen peanut butter on it. There are still times where he will get up to go and bark/act fierce to scare them once the mat is finished and/or if they make a sharp sound like coughing which requires my intervention, but we have gotten to the stage where often he will feel settled enough after the mat to ignore them and have a nap. He's not the sort of dog that will ever like interacting with most other humans/strangers, and that's OK. I have come to realise that maybe what is most important is to help him feel safe enough to ignore them.

CustomerOk3838

1mo

I might try substituting distance for distraction. If that’s unsuccessful, I would try slowing the movement to 1/4 speed provided you have a cooperative helper.

Pianist-Vegetable

1mo

If that helper is comfortable maybe get them to ask lokibto come with make it a "oooh where we going?" type thing with lots of treats if he happily obliges, definitely work on muzzle training him, definitely keep him on a lead too when you first start with distance observations

Tarheel_Hiker

1mo

Transitions can be really hard for some reactive dogs. With my dog (who struggles with this), I try to walk him away or crate him BEFORE he has a chance to react.

VeraLynn1942

1mo

OP our dog has this exact problem. Our trainer suggested giving treats but now it seems it’s either had no effect or has encouraged her to bark/lunge more to get treats. She simply doesn’t understand we don’t want her to bark/lunge when guests get up or move around (she’s relatively relaxed when they are sitting and has gotten to the point where she allows them to pet her and plays in front of them etc). Can you please explain how you are distracting and marking if you don’t mind?

mcshaftmaster

1mo

I would consider limiting how much time your dog is exposed to strangers even if he seems calm. Expecting him to warm up to strangers enough to never react is probably asking too much in one sitting. I would've taken him away after his first reaction to your guests standing up and given him a good break to relax. You could try reintroducing him after an hour if he seems open to it.

TemperatureRough7277

1mo

This is really great advice. I wanted to add that licking people's hands is a classic border collie nervous behaviour, probably indicating that the dog, while far from over threshold, was already feeling a bit anxious even though the interactions were going well. He was managing that anxiety but it could be used as a sign he's actually not relaxed as such, just coping, and will need a break.

mcshaftmaster

1mo

There is a great video about checking to see if your dog really wants to be petted here:

https://eileenanddogs.com/blog/2012/08/29/does-your-dog-really-want-to-be-petted/

Chiritsu

1mo

I was working on this with a friend of a friends reactive german shephard. We worked on removing the dog when they react, wait for them to calm, then come back and have them lay down and their handler (mom) standing slightly in front of them at a distance from us. We (guests) were moving our legs around first since that was one of their triggers then eventually upgraded to standing. Within 20 mins, the reactive dog was allowed to see what was happening, would look at his handler (mom) for guidance, and would be rewarded for each time he did this.

The toy thing is a great bonding opportunity between your dog and others so that’s great, don’t lose that. It also sounds like an inside vs outside thing. If you can also book in with a positive reinforcement trainer to work on this, it would be more beneficial so they can help you in your space.

chiquitar

Dog Name (Reactivity Type)

1mo

This is very normal for a reactive dog. Guests that are sitting down (smaller) and stationary feel safer to a dog than guests that are standing or moving. Same for body positions in dogs--a dog in a sit or lying down is far less likely to be suddenly starting a fight or be a danger to you than a dog who is already up or moving. So you can see why a dog who is okay with sitting guests would not be similarly okay with standing or walking guests.

You can take advantage of this (with cooperative guests) by having a new person sit down while the dog is out of the room/house and then bring the dog into the room. It can give the dog a great first experience with a new person without having a reaction. Often with a dog who is still learning how to adjust to novel people that's plenty for a single visit, so just have the guests let you know before they stand up so you can take the dog back out of the room and have the dog kept out of sight when they leave. Once the guest has been back a few times you can start working on posture and motion. Have the guest lean forward like they might stand up, then relax. Move arms over head. Stand but then sit down again. Walk away from where you are holding the dog. Walk past at a distance. Sudden or jerky movements (or vocalizations) are much harder than smooth, slow movements. Your anxious fidgety friend with a loud high pitched laugh (or a toddler) is not the guest you want to start with. Work your way up.

Thresholds such as doorways (especially the door between inside and outside) are even trickier, because an insecure dog will feel unsure if the person "should" be coming inside or going outside or not, and unsure whether the dog should be doing something about this, and so the dog will often get extra worked up as the guest crosses the threshold. Unfortunately the human will want to pause IN THE DOORWAY because the dog is freaking out, understandably of course, but it makes the whole transition from outside to inside even longer and more uncertain and stressful for the pup. Once your dog gets to the point that guests standing or walking are no longer a problem, you can teach them a station cue (Place, Lie in Your Bed, Crate) within sight of the door but well away from it, and have them Stay there while people come in and out. Start leashed of course when you switch from practice guests to real guests, but eventually it can be off-leash. Their human being between them and the guest also helps dogs feel like the human is making the decisions about whether people are welcome or not, which is always less stressful for a dog than feeling like the dog has to decide!

Also--if your dog has made leaps and bounds with a guest, you will want to push for more. It's so much better to make progress a little slower than necessary than to try to do just a little more and push the dog into reacting. This is probably the hardest thing for most folks with reactivity. If you can end on a successful note your dog will progress so much more quickly in the long run. Sounds like you are doing great with figuring out intros, just break it down into more steps whenever you think there's a chance the dog may not succeed. The memory of being scared of a guest is turbocharged by the fear emotion--it will stick in the mind so much more strongly than all the times they threw a toy and it was great fun. Just how brains work to keep us out of danger.

fru-gal_slacks

1mo

Similar problem. Appreciate the time you took to break this down

-Critical_Audience-

1mo

I might have a solution! We have the same problem. We now hired a professional trainer. Officially the training starts Monday but we already implemented his first advice: the dog is territorial because you are not territorial „enough“. The dog takes over certain duties because they don’t think you do them.

We will learn more about all of this. But after a single day of doing the following we could have guests over and the dog was calm!

We started to command the dog around even if she is not doing anything annoying or what not. We would tell her to go to her place and lay down and she was not allowed to get up until we give the ok. If she does get up she is put back. If she throws a tantrum about it we wait patiently but also make her lay down firmly. When we are feeling that she cannot stay so long laying down we give the free command very early (few seconds). This is some stupid power/dominance play. I know! But it helps sooo much! When the friends came over she completely accepted that WE deal with them. She was much much less stressed as well.

We always did basic obedience training with some tricks and treats. But that is just a game for her. Telling her what do to and not letting it go until she does it, really gives her confidence in us when dealing with the scary outside world and its habitants…

astralburrito47

1mo

All of this! Also, if owners have learned to be anxious over this behavior, the dog will pick up on that and think he needs to protect against whatever is stressing them out. He has to learn he can trust the parents to call the shots so he can relax. Lots of one-on-one training and trust-building will eliminate most of this behavior.

Moderator removed comment

1mo

astralburrito47

1mo

(No spanking/hitting obviously, just some form of firm re-direct)

astralburrito47

1mo

Commenting again to say Critical Audience nailed the training that was implemented for the vast progress. Spend some time on those trust/confidence building exercises, bring one trusted friend/family member over at a time somewhere down the road to slowly show him you don’t need his help ‘protecting’ and that he can relax. It’s a long process!

zillarillazilla

1mo

We had this issue with our people reactive herding mix. It felt like she would police their movements - “where’s your permit?!” - even after asking them for pets while they were sitting.

Our solutions with her have been: use ball (her favorite toy) in the house ONLY when people are over, train “leave it”, and medication.

kmblake3

1mo

My dog has this issue as well except it’s more specifically when moving between rooms or coming in/going out of the house. Our solution has made a world of a difference and I’ll break it down for you.

When new/first time guests come over, we crate our dog in the room over. Once everyone has come inside and exchanged pleasantries and sat down, we hand out our pup’s favorite peanut butter treats to our guests, then release him from the crate once he’s CALMLY sitting/lying down in there. We make sure no one speaks to him or anything and let him choose who/when he wants to approach and they hand him their treat. Once he’s said hello to everyone and the tail/body language are objectively positive, we tell him to get his toy and he’ll immediately bring it over to one of his new friends. If they have to get up while he’s out, we call him to his bed off to the side of the room so the guests can move around freely without walking right past him. Once they’ve sat back down, we break the bed command. When it’s time for everyone to leave the house, we give him the crate command again and he happily runs into the other room and goes into his crate until we come back inside and let him out.

With people/family he’s very familiar with, we don’t have to worry about these types of interactions. But until he really gets to know new people, we are very mindful of managing all interactions and helping him to succeed while keeping our friends/family comfortable.