Pittsburgh area barely builds more housing than Harrisburg, despite being nearly ~5x the size

We're building a shockingly small amount of housing in the Pittsburgh area . Less than cities like Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. Less than Charlotte, Nashville, and Raleigh. Less than Hunstville, AL, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Omaha, St. Louis, Greenville, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Madison, and so many more. We're just barely building more than Harrisburg, despite being nearly ~5x the size.

It's not like we're just losing to fast growing Sun Belt cities - we're losing to pretty much every other Rust Belt city too. Hopefully we can make some changes here so that we don't cede the future to everywhere but here.

[Image]

in pittsburghby prohousingpghGreater Pittsburgh Area

242

87%

1mo

Arctic16

216

1mo

This sub oscillates between “build more housing!” and complaining about every proposed city project and suburban development because they hate developers.

Build More Housing, Not Like That! as a philosophy gets you nowhere.

Onepopcornman

1mo

Probably different competing voices on the threads. It’s only incoherent if it’s the same people.

I for one think it’s a pretty interesting conversation mostly because Pittsburgh is one of a few cities that experienced massive contraction since its peak which makes for an interesting conversation about density as the population grows back into the city.

green_lemonade

1mo

There's so many empty and abandoned lots in neighborhoods close to downtown. I'd love to buy one and build a duplex/multifamily home if I had the cash

gishgob

1mo

Or if zoning allowed

green_lemonade

1mo

How do you mean? For example are the empty lots in between row houses in the northside or Mexican War Streets not zoned? There's already multifam houses on either side of them

Pale-Mine-5899

1mo

Alot of neighborhoods in this city had SFH zoning overlaid over existing construction, making it illegal to rebuild what already exists. Details in this series:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1b2epfu/you_cant_build_that_here/

green_lemonade

1mo

That is so mind bendingly absurd

Pale-Mine-5899

1mo

It was a deliberate project to fuck cities up in order to encourage businesses and (white) people to move to the new artificial suburban housing estates, from the feds on down.

green_lemonade

1mo

Ive read quite a bit about "urban renewal" and white flight, but I've never come across downzoning like this. You can still build mulifam attached housing in high density residential areas of a lot of old northern and midwest cities. This is especially bad.

Gnarlsaurus_Sketch

1mo

This is especially bad.

Pgh's zoning code, review process, and attitude towards development in general.

Continue thread...

trail-coffee

Dormont

1mo

If u want to feel better about Pittsburgh, take a look at San Francisco’s zoning map (that yellow/beige is single family zoning, so nothing else like apartments, duplexes, townhouses allowed).

https://sfplanning.org/sites/default/files/resources/2019-02/zoning_use_districts.pdf

If they aren’t careful, they’ll make housing unaffordable in San Francisco.

Continue thread...

Steve-Dunne

1mo

Interestingly, the initial mass downzoning to single family homes in Pittsburgh occurred in the late 90s and early 2000s and wasn’t based on racial animus.

The city was bleeding residents at that time and single family homes were getting chopped up left and right into (often substandard) apartments. Neighborhood organizations, including the Hill and Homewood, were freaking out and the city’s response was to basically suburbanize the zoning code to try and control decline. There was zero thought about new development and population growth, which that over corrective code has since stymied.

There’s also the issue of neighborhood NIMBYs and activists having an outsized voice in how the city deals with development that has really held back density and growth. But, regardless of that, that’s the story of why Pittsburgh has so much single family zoning.

green_lemonade

1mo

This is really interesting, thanks for bringing in some historical perspective. Ive seen staunchly NIMBY neighborhoods dearly protect their historical preservation status to their own detriment, but 70 years ago that same Historical designation saved them from urban renewal and having a highway cut through it.

Hindsight may be 20/20 but I think the lesson is really to keep evolving and be willing to take up new tactics as needed rather than clinging to something that worked decades ago.

GangbusterJ

1mo

The RCO's are a huge problem. They are essentially neighborhood mafia and think they hold real power over wha the law states. If you sit in or watch any of the DAM meetings held by these groups, its pretty clear how much they despise developers trying to do anything other than their exact agenda. Its sad how many good intended projects they hold up or kill

paddy_yinzer

1mo

It could also be a deliberate attempt to force development that requires people to be dependent on automobiles

Pale-Mine-5899

1mo

That's just another form of economic (and therefore racial) segregation.

Continue thread...

Excelius

Monroeville

1mo

This sounds a bit overly conspiratorial, especially since the city has control over it's own zoning. Why would the city itself participate in this conspiracy of self-destruction?

More likely stupid short-sighted decision making.

There also seemed to be a period of time where it was thought that the best way to stem the loss of population to the suburbs... was to make the city more suburban in charachter. Which wasn't all bad, some good ideas came from that like an increased focus on green space, but some bad ideas too.

Pale-Mine-5899

1mo

https://www.pbs.org/video/owned-a-tale-of-two-americas-vlyf9h/

Watch this documentary, they go into exactly how it happened. Long and short, in the 1930s HUD set up a bifurcated housing system where whites would be channeled to segregated, artificial country estates that the federal government underwrote; non-whites would stay in disinvested urban areas or be moved into urban housing complexes (e.g. Cabrini Green).

The feds underwrote the construction of suburban tract homes and the tax structure was modified (e.g. accelerated depreciation) to encourage businesses and retail to relocate out to these suburban estates. Stuff like the Rt. 30 strip mall spawl out past North Versailles is a direct result of these policies.

https://medium.com/by-the-bay/exempting-suburbia-13e339f4e37a
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2169635

It was all entirely deliberate.

Continue thread...

NoEmu3532

1mo

You can't unless you know people in high places. Cash isn't going to do it unless you have a ton of it to get through everything with that URA. It really can't be done.

green_lemonade

1mo

Whats the URA?

PersonalAd2039

1mo

https://mckeesport-pa.gov/209/VPRC

Here ya go. Make it happen.

krikrat

1mo

This is an Allegheny county program with participating municipalities. I purchased the vacant house next door to demolish through this program. Basically they eminent domain the property, clear the title, and sell it for stupid cheap. I bought a whole house and lot for $700 plus the cost to take it down. I could have rehabbed it too, but that's not our end goal. We want a driveway at some point.

green_lemonade

1mo

That's not in PGH, though. I haven't been to McKeesport yet. Only just moved to the area.

RedModsSuck

1mo

Hahaha! Let us know what you think once you go there.

green_lemonade

1mo

Am i missing out on an inside joke or something

exradical

1mo

Yeah it’s always funny when people complain that “this sub” contradicts itself. Wow, shocker, it’s almost like multiple people can have multiple opinions

green_lemonade

1mo

Because people have different thoughts? Its not the same people voicing both opinions.

Pielacine

1mo

Yeah it’s not the same people

Street_Possession871

1mo

lol yes it is

Pielacine

1mo

Not on this sub generally. At community meetings, yes.

burritoace

1mo

Speak for yourself, you're proudly anti-development

Street_Possession871

1mo

What development other than the Frick Park invasion have I opposed?

You sick twists just need someone to bully online. Am I strawman enough for you?

burritoace

1mo

You hate developers and you have positioned yourself against one of the only pro-building advocacy groups around. You spend your time following against windmills online. If anyone here is a bully it is you.

And I'm not aware of a single development you've supported. You have a pretty consistent and obvious stance on this topic and it's staunchly anti-development.

Street_Possession871

-1

1mo

I don’t hate developers; I just don’t blindly trust them or work for them. Am I anti paid speech from a propaganda outfit? You bet I am. Why? Because it’s obvious corruption, spreading lies and misleading statistics like the above. Ryan Deto lied his ass off for you guys, and I hope the checks cleared. Where is he from again?

And what rank are you in ProHousingPGH? I’ve seemed to really get under your skin by attacking them. Some people choose to work for a living and not just pretend to be an activist while cashing real estate checks. Should I apologize for saying that dividing voters into an us vs. them dynamic is reprehensible and a fascist tactic? Search Reddit for NIMBY. It’s disgusting how YIMBY paid speech treats minority rights. I wouldn’t be surprised if yinz work with an overseas troll farm.

burritoace

1mo

LMAO, this is truly psychotic shit. I have zero affiliation with that org but you are so wrapped around your own axle that you can't see straight. Try getting out in the real world sometime, if it isn't too petrifying for you

Street_Possession871

1mo

I’m the one who needs to get a life? How many Reddit comments do you have?

burritoace

1mo

The vast majority of your comments on this sub are completely unhinged accusations about YIMBYs. Get a grip

Continue thread...

NoEmu3532

1mo

A developer wanted to build in Bloomfield that had housing and a grocery store, but it was deemed too tall and out of place. The URA is a sickening corrupt organization that should be disbanded. Heck, I tried to buy and rehab a home and was shot down and I restored many homes before, but the URA had no interest in talking to me. You have to know someone or pay off someone I guess. There is a reason our rents are so high. Maybe we just stay at around 300K people and have high rents. In my lifetime Pittsburgh has lost well over 1/2 its population. All is great though. We always vote the same and hate any diverse opinions. Let's stay the course. Onward!

Warriorasak

1mo

this chart is discussing multi family housing- apartments, not single family homes

unenlightenedgoblin

1mo

County Executive Innamorato just released the All In Allegheny County survey results, which helps to shed light on attitudes toward housing in the county. On desktop, you can see detailed breakdowns of responses by demographics and geography. On affordable housing in particular, the dominant response indicated a preference for repurposing existing buildings, which is happening (though on nowhere close to the needed scale), and probably isn’t captured in OP’s data on new construction. Practically speaking, it’s often challenging and expensive (things like asbestos and lead abatement add cost and hazard, rewiring for in-demand modern appliances is a hassle, permitting and zoning restrictions, etc). For new housing development in particular, the responses indicate sharp generational divides (NIMBY boomers and Gen X, YIMBY youth).

AlleghenyCityHolding

-2

1mo

That survey was garbage and was an obvious justification for predetermined policy.

unenlightenedgoblin

1mo

You mean as opposed to previous administrations that didn’t even bother to solicit any public feedback?

AccidentalBanEvader0

1mo

Could it be that these aren't the same people? That conclusion seems like common sense to me

Jaxues_

-3

1mo

What would we should be doing is tearing down expensive houses therefore bringing the average home price down.

It’s not like more supply to meet demand would cause prices to lower or anything.

Gnarlsaurus_Sketch

1mo

Even worse, it looks like the the amount of housing built per year is expected to decrease in the future.

This is not good enough. Not even close. We'll never be able to attract good jobs and ultimately more population if Memphis, Harrisburg, and Albany are out-building us, nor will we be able to provide housing to reduce the homeless problem here. Hell, we're being outbuilt by a factor of 2:1+ by college towns such as Madison and Ann Arbor, not to mention Huntsville!

Someone needs to press Gainey and Innamorato on this ASAP. If they don't address this, it's inexcusable IMO.

James19991

Bellevue

1mo

This will happen when you put community input for every project beyond building an infill house or two on too high of a pedestal.

thesockcode

1mo

At some point, people confused "community input" for "democracy". Giving precedence to the squeakiest wheels is the opposite of democratic.

James19991

Bellevue

1mo

Totally agree. Not every complaint and concern about a development should be taken seriously.

pcnetworx1

1mo

Every ant fart seizes up building projects in Pittsburgh

theflyingfucked

1mo

Community input should be more often reserved for projects that approach 'placemaking' status in scale, major amendments to public space that impact usage, or when the project makes the community direct stakeholders in any meaningful capacity. Asking the community on how they feel about a bench costs more than the bench, I'd rather just have the bench scholars tell the bench professionals where to bench and ask forgiveness later

Gnarlsaurus_Sketch

1mo

Agreed. The current system relies heavily on nebby NIMBYs instead of the zoning code itself. A handful of disgruntled neighbors shouldn't be able to obstruct and/or sink most of the high density projects that are proposed.

Reform the f**king zoning code already.

James19991

Bellevue

1mo

It needs to be done ASAP. At least they're going in the right direction with allowing homes to be built as they used to be.

Dancing_Hitchhiker

1mo

Every building project gets a post on this sub on why it shouldn’t be built so not surprising. Not saying they don’t have some valid reasons but not surprising it takes so long to get anything built.

metracta

1mo

We need to change our zoning ffs. Absolutely asinine.

UnsurprisingDebris

Greenfield

1mo

Not only that but also streamline the permitting and inspection process.

burritoace

1mo

We desperately need to do all these things but I think it will make a smaller dent than people expect. The biggest problem is the cost and complication of construction.

UnsurprisingDebris

Greenfield

1mo

I know a bunch of people in the trades that refuse to work in the City because of the involved red tape and permitting time-lines.

So if we could get these processes more streamlined then we should be able to get more contractors and trades people working in the city. That may help with the cost when there is increased competition.

burritoace

1mo

It's not substantially cheaper to build in the suburbs for regulatory or competition reasons, as far as I can tell (also in the industry). The biggest difference would be in logistics and site access, if anything.

tscatl

1mo

Just so it’s abundantly clear this chart is discussing multi family housing- apartments, not single family homes

RiverPirate212

1mo

How many people can't understand how to read a chart and will discuss it out of context? --- right now a little over 200.

Also- this is just some random chart that doesn't have the resource it listed.

I could make up anything, slap it in a spreadsheet and start circulating it to prove a point. Information needs the sources listed to be credible

Pale-Mine-5899

1mo

I agree with the OP's premise but the post is blatantly misleading and they're not going to make converts with such a blatantly misleading post.

bookishbaker1

1mo

Related: "Big zoning rumblings from small Pittsburgh neighborhood"

https://www.publicsource.org/pittsburgh-north-side-fineview-zoning-attached-housing-city-council/

whosabadnewbie

Mt. Lebanon

1mo

Where is this information coming from? Are you just linking to your twitter spreadsheet?

prohousingpgh

Greater Pittsburgh Area

1mo

Data source is Yardi Matrix, which was cited in this article: https://www.resiclubanalytics.com/p/housing-markets-will-see-apartment-completions-2029-according-yardis-updated-forecast

vulpesgato

1mo

infill is the way, sprawl no bueno

Redditmedaddy69

1mo

Is this Pittsburgh itself, or is the metro area included? I'd guess it's just the city which doesn't tell the full story for our area.

But can someone EILI5, and tell me why we need more housing in this area? (in general, I know we need more AFFORDABLE housing and don't wanna get into that aspect of it). But every time I drive by one of these new housing communities I just don't get it. Our population is already dropping, what is going to happen when the baby boomers start to die off? Won't we be left with insane amounts of abandoned properties and ghost town like HOA communities?

nerdkid93

Bloomfield

1mo

The population of Pittsburgh hasn't changed much recently, but the number of households in Pittsburgh and surrounding areas has been growing for several years now, which pushes up the demand for more housing units. The reasons for this might be good (people are making more money than they were a few years ago and can afford their own place), might be neutral, or might be worrying (people delaying marriage/having children), but it's hard to argue that Pittsburgh doesn't need more housing supply.

mattmentecky

1mo

Also, the average household size has been falling consistently for decades (everywhere not just Pittsburgh), so if the population is stagnant but household size decreasing it still means the demand for housing is increasing.

My guess for decreasing household size is young people want to live on their own (instead of living at home until their married) and the elderly living on their own more and more instead of living in a multigenerational household.

Gnarlsaurus_Sketch

1mo

it's hard to argue that Pittsburgh needs more housing supply.

? Did you mean the opposite?

nerdkid93

Bloomfield

1mo

Woops, fixed! Shouldn't have been typing while distracted :D

Street_Possession871

-2

1mo

The population of Pittsburgh is at the same level it was 50 years ago. We need to care for our current housing stock and not just chop everything up based on a developers’ whims.

Pale-Mine-5899

-5

1mo

but the number of households in Pittsburgh and surrounding areas has been growing for several years now

People keep saying this but nobody has shown any numbers. Until there are numbers, this is just baseless speculation.

(Also the link only shows multifamily starts, no single-family starts are included.)

e: lol blocked for asking for the data he's basing his hypothesis on. Amazing.

LocketheLockedBoy

1mo

Check out the 2022 housing element.

Pittsburgh went from 132k households in 2015 to 138k in 2019.

Sources:

https://www.prohousingpgh.org/blog/does-pittsburgh-really-need-more-housing

https://apps.pittsburghpa.gov/redtail/images/21887_Pittsburgh_HNA_Final_Report.pdf

rusty022

1mo

But can someone EILI5, and tell me why we need more housing in this area?

Because so much of the housing is ... underwhelming. Sure, you can find a 3br home in the suburbs for less than $250k, which is really good for a city of this size and amenities. But that home hasn't been updated in 40 years, it has a 10x10 kitchen, it has a one-car 'garage' that is essentially a shed, and there's a good chance it needs new utility lines at some point. Of course you can up the budget to $400k and find a home that is newer with less issues. Go up to $500k and you'll get a pretty nice place. But those houses are also likely to be outdated (just go on Zillow) and need small renovations.

Won't we be left with insane amounts of abandoned properties and ghost town like HOA communities?

The market will be flooded with even more underwhelming 3BR homes that haven't been updated in 40 years. But they will at least be affordable for young families and the middle class compared to the $600k+ new homes. It's a tough situation. So much of the housing in the area is undesirable. What can you do about that?

mrbuttsavage

1mo

When I was looking at houses, it was difficult to find a kitchen that wasn't extremely small and had been updated post the 90s or ever. And that's including the suburbs.

Recently renovated, non-flip houses are contingent at lightning speed around here.

Sunglassesatnight81

1mo

This is bc Pittsburgh residents usually don’t leave pgh or their homes. Hence, no need to update. And now no need when selling

Gnarlsaurus_Sketch

1mo

Spot on, and "underwhelming" is putting it extremely nicely.

TeamADW

1mo

Once upon a time, you bought an inexpensive old house, fixed what was needed when you moved in, and lived there a bit before trying to renovate it completely. Or just did it over the years as you could afford, not going by how much you could borrow.

That's part of why housing prices are so bonkers now.. everyone wanted to cash in on the house flipping craze, dumped 10's of thousands into transforming them into home depot showrooms, and the sold them at 3x the price.

Old places have nice charm, and aside from updating some wiring (not hard to do) or insulation, most would be fine with a coat of paint and dumping that old carpet. I still have some of the wood panel in my basement, because it reminds me of my grandfather's place. And, I didnt move in to have a house to sell in 10 years. I bought it to live in.

rusty022

1mo

You’re kind of describing my life. I have a 60 year old very outdated split-entry home. Last owners didn’t do anything to it for the last 30 years. We’re slowly upgrading things and making it our own and we can afford it much more than the $450k homes that are much nicer.

I agree that is a good thing to do. I was mostly saying it’s not what people want these days.

otoolek415

1mo

Finally someone said it. Tried to buy a house last year. Got outbid and priced out on every single offer. We did everything right. And I kept thinking about my parents (boomers) who bought their current house in 2002 and completely fixed up the place before, during and after we moved in. Redid the driveway, landscaping, built a garage for my dad to work in, washed and repainted EVERYTHING bc it was owned by a smoker and reeked, redid the kitchen, etc….we couldn’t even buy a house like that today because some flipper would scoop it up with a cash offer 😕

TeamADW

1mo

And my house still has ugly siding. I dont have the money to replace it, and frankly, I dont care. It does its job, and has since the 1980s when it was installed.

It still beats the hell out of the neighborhood full of condemned section 8 houses where I grew up in the slopes.

TeamADW

1mo

During lockdowns every online store gotr hit by "brands" that just were a credit card and a person adding their presence to the cost. Helped drive the prices of things up and up, and its still a problem.

Way too many people trying to get rich with little effort. No better than the hedgefunds and capitol investment groups that ruin all the companies by turning them into forever bills and firing all the people that made them good.

Redditmedaddy69

1mo

I feel what you said may have been the case 5 years ago+, but not currently. We wouldn't have bidding wars on every suburban home or the affordability problem if what you said were currently true.

And I feel the keeping up with the Jones's crap is a giant part of why younger generations will never own a home. Everything wouldn't be so expensive if we didn't require full house AC, large garages and $120,000 kitchens as standard living rights.

rusty022

1mo

There are tons of reasons for the current market difficulties. Rates are still over double their low from 3 years ago. Inventory is very low. High rates means no one wants to sell, hence the low inventory. If you are looking for your first home today with a budget of $250k, you will be in a bidding war and probably get an underwhelming home. Even if you’re budgeting $400k, you’ll be buying a larger home that is pulled straight out of 1992. Just have a look on Zillow, that’s how it is right now.

randomatic

1mo

I had the same thought. The OP's data is comparing a bunch of cities, but it doesn't talk about population. Pittsburgh population is barely holding steady, and hasn't changed significantly since the 1970's. Source: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/23100/pittsburgh/population

I think a fair perspective would need to look at total houses available vs. population change to give a truer comparison with other cities. Pittsburgh, like others, is showing a declining inventory, and I think there are large economic factors driving this. Stagnant wages, for example, mean fewer people already here are looking for new houses. The lack of population influx means there isn't a huge market demand compared to other cities. Finally, we're also seeing the effects of COVID (nothing being built) and interest rates (if it's built, not clear it will sell quickly).

prohousingpgh

Greater Pittsburgh Area

1mo

Pittsburgh, like many other Rust Belt cities, has stagnated population-wise over the last few decades. Yet we're building significantly less than other Rust Belt cities like Cleveland, which also hasn't gained population since the 60s and is, in fact, smaller than Pittsburgh!

LaxTy23

1mo

Cleveland isn't smaller than Pittsburgh though.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/pittsburghcitypennsylvania,clevelandcityohio/PST045222

prohousingpgh

Greater Pittsburgh Area

1mo

The data is for metro area, not the core city. Metro Pittsburgh is larger than Metro Cleveland, although not by a huge margin.

RedModsSuck

1mo

Part of it is usable land. Have you even looked at the metro region from above? Most of the land that is usable within 25-30 miles is already built out, unless it is a park or a golf course. The rest of it is hills and valleys that make it difficult to impossible to build a sub-division on.

dfiler

1mo

What about the tens of thousands of vacant lots? There are a number of problems but land availability isn't one of them.

Street_Possession871

1mo

Ignore ProHousingPGH. They’re proudly lobbyists for private real estate investors. Look it up - they’re a chapter of a California startup, not a local group.

otoolek415

1mo

They’re downvoting everyone disagreeing with them too I see.

User deleted comment

1mo

prohousingpgh

Greater Pittsburgh Area

1mo

These are metros. Metro Pittsburgh is comparably sized or larger than nearly all of those, with a few being larger than Pittsburgh and none significantly larger.

randomatic

1mo

My point is population growth, not raw population, is more important. If you have two cities where one is adding 10k people per month while the other is stagnant, which one do you expect to have more homes built?

Kolintracstar

-8

1mo

I wholeheartedly agree. The push for more housing and "it's a housing crisis" seem a little stretched beyond what they really are.

It seems that we moreso have an issue affordable housing than house supply, and merely saying we need to build more to get builders to charge less is asinine. Build more apartments that are $2400/mo that sit empty or cheap townhouses that go for $500k+. They could instead redevelop inside city limits with the condemned or empty lots that exist.

A couple of friends and I theorize that Pittsburgh developers are expecting a boom in people moving here from other cities with higher costs of living from the east and west coasts.

Gnarlsaurus_Sketch

1mo

The push for more housing and "it's a housing crisis" seem a little stretched beyond what they really are.

The recent spike in homelessness isn't random, and the best solution to it is to decrease housing prices. The best way to decrease housing prices is to build more housing.

we need to build more to get builders to charge less is asinine

That is literally how economics works. Economies of scale is a big thing.

They could instead redevelop inside city limits with the condemned or empty lots that exist.

More expensive, much harder to do, (have to deal with the city's awful zoning code and ridiculous review process that values "community input" uber alles) and much of their target market doesn't want to live in the city anyways. The city could help fix this by reforming its awful zoning code, fixing the land bank, and generally welcoming reasonable development instead of putting up road blocks to it at every opportunity.

TBH, it sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Pale-Mine-5899

1mo

We need some level of government to step in and subsidize affordable, dense housing. It's literally the only way it's going to get built. Just hoping the free market provides when the free market exists to maximize profit ain't gonna do it.

Gnarlsaurus_Sketch

1mo

Subsidies may well be part of the solution, but they certainly aren't the only way.

Fixing the zoning code, land bank, and the issue of consistently over-valuing ridiculously biased community input would likely more than double development without a cent of subsidies.

Pale-Mine-5899

1mo

The most famous example of American affordable housing was the suburban housing boom of 1936 to 1977 or so. That was almost entirely subsidized by the federal government.

Given a choice between building high margin "luxury" housing or affordable housng, developers will choose the former every time. That's why they've got to be incentivized to build the latter.

TheFoolsDayShow

1mo

Pittsburgh is already building as much affordable housing as there is currently subsidy provided. The city doesn’t have the budget to support more subsidy without cutting other important services or increasing taxes. Our transfer tax is already 5% - quite high. There needs to be an increase of billions of dollars of investment from the federal government and increases in state funding to do affordable housing at the scale it’s needed in pgh and elsewhere.

James19991

Bellevue

1mo

I noticed in the image provided it mentions multi-family units, so single family housing units built are not included in these totals? If so, I would bet a lot of stuff being built outside of the city in the rest of the metro is being missed.

Street_Possession871

1mo

Cherry picked statistics from paid representatives of the real estate lobby.

James19991

Bellevue

1mo

Thought so. This data is pretty fucking useless then if single family homes aren't being included.

412201

1mo

The amount of projects that are approved at Planning Commission that just die is astronomical

LostEnroute

-3

Garfield

1mo

Name one. Most developers don't get that far and then not go through with it due to the time and money they have already spent.

412201

1mo

Multi family housing above YWCA downtown, apartments behind PNC Park, development in the Strip across from Coop De Ville. That’s just a few

LostEnroute

Garfield

1mo

Those are all still still in progress. Nothing canceled, just taking more time than maybe you would expect.

412201

1mo

Most of those projects have a time limit associated with their approval before they have to go back and ask for an extension or approval (usually a year). Due diligence takes time for sure but after a while a developer throws their hands up and shelves the project in pursuit of something more feasible

LostEnroute

Garfield

1mo

Ok, but you are assuming that these projects are dead. Have anything to back that up?

AV_DudeMan

1mo

Irish Center

LostEnroute

Garfield

1mo

Did that make through Planning Commission review?

AV_DudeMan

1mo

Hell naw my dude! Got denied a variance by the zoning board

LostEnroute

Garfield

1mo

Zoning board is before Planning Commission. Did you misread what I responded to? They claimed many projects die after being approved. Irish Centre isn't a good example.

AV_DudeMan

1mo

Ah got it ya misunderstood. I mean, both still suck imo 😂

AnonymousPGH

1mo

The right wing Canadian group asked for a variance because "we have to build that high in order to make enough money" and that's not actually a hardship, since the lot can be developed in a hundred other ways without displacing 25,000 cubic yards of park land. They were flummoxed when they learned if you google "Commercial st landslide pittsburgh" you get multiple results over the last few years.

Of course, if you're intellectually dishonest, these are unimportant details. Screw facts and screw Pittsburgh parks and infrastructure, open up all land to foreign investors in the name of trickle down economics and YIMBY Action's client list.

AV_DudeMan

1mo

I see that you prefer a dilapidated building to allowing more people to live close to and appreciate our beautiful parks. Got it

AnonymousPGH

1mo

Yeah, that's it. I love dilapidated buildings. Your mom will be bringing you your dinner in the basement soon.

Far_Map8423

1mo

One dimension is that existing housing costs are relatively low compared to new construction. That’s kind of, arguably unfortunately, changing, and it should promote more construction.

Lux600-223

1mo

New apartments with a view of Frick Park would be great. Someone should look into building something nice on that Irish Center property, eh?

AV_DudeMan

1mo

Would probably get denied by the zoning board smh 😂

Lux600-223

1mo

Or all the people wearing "we need more housing" teeshirts would show up and protest holding "no more developments" signs?

FishBowl_1990

1mo

This comment should be pinned lol

Honey-and-Venom

1mo

Oh look.... an illustration of the problem I was recently mocked here for observing, further building the barrier to working people, especially young people, from owning homes when they should be able to.

OcelotWolf

Bloomfield

1mo

This is pathetic and, quite frankly, monumentally embarrassing. We are squandering so much potential

No_Veterinarian1410

1mo

After reading the comments regarding the number of households in the City of Pittsburgh, I decided to review the census data to determine if the number of households has been increasing.

The data is based upon the American community survey, which is conducted annually. As a survey, there will always be a margin of error. I included the links to the surveys at the end of this comment.

2010 ACS data - 129,828 housing units. Average household size is 2.17.

2022 ACS data - 136,444 housing units. Average household size is 2.04.

The data appears to show that the decreasing household size is increasing the total number of households, which would seem to increase demand for housing, on first impression.

I do not think it is right to make sweeping generalizations based upon this information, but I do think it is indicative of a tend (smaller household size requires more housing). Building more housing seems necessary as a result.

The surveys are linked below:

https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2010.S1101?q=housing%20pittsburgh&moe=true

https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2022.S1101?q=housing%20pittsburgh&moe=true

AlwaysSunnyPhilly2

1mo

The city makes it almost impossible to build new housing so that tracks

Major-Ad-2966

1mo

As someone that grew up here but spent a dozen years in Central PA, you just cannot ignore the 29 billion dollar state budget that is controlled and picked at first in Harrisburg.

Second you should not ever disregard the close proximity of Lebanon, Harrisburg, Camp Hill, York, Mechanicsburg, and Carlisle.

Lastly, the economic boost from being about 70 miles from Baltimore & 95 from Philly, which happen to be the Airports of choice for folks in Central PA is a real thing. Let’s just say there are some long ass driveways leading up to some HUGE homes and no neighbors to be seen.

into_thevoyage

1mo

Then let developers cook you fucking clowns

WorthImpressive3621

1mo

For most of you that can’t seem to grasp this topic… there is a housing shortage. The resale market is miniscule. Why you might ask? How many people refinanced their mortgages or purchased when they were below 4%? A ton. Thousands. With rates nearing 7% and housing prices still at an all time high… why sell ? Everyone’s holding their home that now has a 3 percent interest rate. Builders will keep building and the moment rates drop the prices will climb even more.

Pittsburgh is also an interesting market because unlike lots of other cities on the east coast, this city is full of old tiny, skinny, sitting on a cliff, beat up homes that need knocked over and rebuilt. And unfortunately, most of the old homes in this city that were worth between 150k-200k in 2015 are now worth 300k. Pretty hard to swallow purchasing and old repainted house that was build in 1921 with a leaky basement and now even harder to flip these old homes for a great profit.

Loeden

1mo

Isn't the population shrinking? I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse here but if you're willing to drive a bit there's plenty housing since it's a rust belt city. I'm a big fan of multi-family housing, don't get me wrong, but new builds aren't cheap and it might not make sense to go gangbusters spending to put more of 'em up with the current situation.

todayiwillthrowitawa

1mo

One of the issues in modern housing is that, population equal, we have way more households than we used to. Less people getting married, having kids, etc. means that the raw population is way more spread out and the demand for certain types of housing (city center apartments) is much higher, even if the demand for other types of houses (peripheral single family homes) isn't outrageous.

Pale-Mine-5899

-5

1mo

we have way more households than we used to.

People keep saying this in these threads but they aren't posting any evidence that this is true.

todayiwillthrowitawa

1mo

First chart down

https://www.prb.org/resources/u-s-household-composition-shifts-as-the-population-grows-older-more-young-adults-live-with-parents/

Pale-Mine-5899

-1

1mo

This isn't about Allegheny County and the data is seven years out of date. Do you have numbers for Allegheny County?

todayiwillthrowitawa

1mo

I don't have any reason to believe that Allegheny County would be an outlier in very large national trends, nor that any of those 60 year long trends have suddenly reversed in seven years.

If you want those specific data points I suggest pulling it out of the U.S. Census (the source for the above article) and performing some analysis yourself.

No_Veterinarian1410

1mo

I posted the information in a separate comment, but the ACS data I reviewed for 2010 and 2022 appears to show a shrinking household size and an increasing number of households.

Obviously it’s a limited amount of data, but hopefully someone will take the time to pull the data from other years (ACS survey data is collected annually while the Census is decennial).

I’m fairly confident that the average household size has been decline for more than 50 years(for instance, one of my parents grew up in a 3 bedroom house with 2 parents and 7 children). Fewer people live in family households, and family households have fewer children. In this situation, the overall population can plateau while the total number of households is increasing. I think this is part of the cause of the increased demand for housing.

Given the trends in household size and the desire for urban housing, I think it makes sense to construct as much dense housing (apartments, row houses , duplexes, etc) as possible.

The city government should also encourage the construction of dense housing (e.g. zoning reform). I’d also favor subsidies to increase the supply of housing (e.g. low interest loans for the construction of housing, fax abatements, etc.), but these efforts have a mixed record and are very controversial. Adding to the supply of housing seems to be one of the few financially sustainable way to address excessive housing costs.

Warriorasak

1mo

Yea it is.

Demand for housing is only high in select small areas

Loeden

1mo

I too would like to live in Lawrenceville though, can't blame 'em!

CounterSensitive776

1mo

Our city government is not developer friendly

NicklovesHer

1mo

Just start telling people that Cleveland is beating us, that'l get the yinzers motivated.

DaRiddler70

1mo

This sub....

Wants more housing

But, don't build it there

Not with that greedy developer

Why isn't it "affordable"? I want the best for 1/2 market rate.

User deleted comment

1mo

DaRiddler70

1mo

Dude, what?

Fudgeyreddit

1mo

Well the size is irrelevant. What matters is growth. Is Harrisburg growing faster than Pittsburgh?

amped1one

1mo

Why do we need NEW housing?!? Whats wrong with you?!?

jasonmoyer

1mo

You know, there are massive suburbs to the southeast of the city that are basically laying dormant. The houses probably need some work as they've been vacant for decades, but they can be had for basically nothing.

vinylcigar

1mo

No one wants to move to Pittsburgh. Plenty of old houses available.

AnonymousPGH

-1

1mo

Create good jobs in Pittsburgh first. Boomers are about to die off en masse and open up a ton of housing, which will only exacerbate the vacancy rate, which Pittsburgh is in the top 20 of:

Cities Where Housing Vacancy Rates Are Highest – 2023 Study - SmartReads by SmartAsset | SmartAsset

VulturE

Pine

1mo

I'd bet most of that building is north in Gibsonia/Mars, all open properties available to build single houses or culdesac plans within city limits are all trash/in flood zones.

In Pittsburgh, generally, you're buying something older that needs rehab. There's very few people that want to go through the necessary process for tearing down 90% of a house to rebuild what they want/need.

Street_Possession871

-1

1mo

Christ, can we go more than 24 hours without a real estate lobbyist circlejerk?

pcnetworx1

1mo

We are more likely to go 24 hours without a sunrise in the sky

jhill515

-1

Greater Pittsburgh Area

1mo

It's not like we're just losing to fast growing Sun Belt cities - we're losing to pretty much every other Rust Belt city too.

Losing what exactly? No, seriously, I'll wait for the answer...

A region isn't better or worse because of how densely populated it is. What matters is how resources are allocated for everyone in the region. How does our homeless rate and local employment rate look? How does that compare to other places? Seems like a better metric would be if people can live and thrive here.

AnonymousPGH

-2

1mo

The one common thread I've seen with these types is that they really do hate Pittsburgh.

EnjoyMoreBeef

1mo

So many people making hating Pittsburgh an extension of their personalities.

threwthelookinggrass

1mo

Are there numbers for sfh?

soparklion

1mo

Does our lack of migrant workers contribute to this?

Inside-Priority-8457

1mo

The population is shrinking here. Not a good investment if you’re in the business of building.

For those that complain about a lack of housing go scope out what it costs to develop new housing. What it really costs…buy land, develop for building, then the high cost of materials and union labor, sales costs like transfer taxes, and lots of legal protections. Outdated municipality requirements add more cost to the project.

Developer margins on new housing are thin and you need a sure thing for development to pencil out and not go bankrupt.

The city leaders thinking they can convert a meaningful number of office to residential units are delusional.

As a bonus in Allegheny County you get to pay significantly more in taxes as a homeowner with a new build vs buying an existing home.

LurkersWillLurk

-11

Central Business District (Downtown)

1mo

Purely for political reasons, Democrats should be building more homes in blue-leaning areas to flip and keep the state house and senate as well as Congress in the next Census. So much of our dysfunction is caused by the overrepresentation of rural areas and suburbs at the expense of the cities.

I think New York State lost an entire House representative by a margin of a few thousand people — few enough that it would’ve been prevented by just a handful of apartment complexes.

jhc412

1mo

Purely for political reasons, Democrats should be building more homes in blue-leaning areas to flip and keep the state house and senate as well as Congress in the next Census

That's a disgusting statement. Housing should not be a political tool just because you're unhappy with the states representation.

Housing should be built for everyone simply because everyone deserves to have safe and affordable housing, regardless of your political party affiliation.

[deleted]

-2

1mo

The source says “Pittsburgh area” which sounds like “Metro Pittsburgh” to me. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t be calling it a blue leaning area at all.

LurkersWillLurk

-1

Central Business District (Downtown)

1mo

The metro as a whole is pretty mixed. The city and inner ring suburbs have plenty of space for infill bar jobs and transit and that’s where I would concentrate new housing.

[deleted]

1mo

Literally every county surrounding Allegheny went for Trump in 2020.

cthulhu_on_my_lawn

1mo

Allegheny County as a whole is solidly blue.

diarrhea_planet

1mo

I feel like terrain and the amount of underground mining creates alot of issues in the city. Also Pittsburgh city proper is one of the few cities that's still very neighborhood based.

I can't imagine a developer buying 2-3 blocks in polish hill and putting up a condo high rise.

DERBY_OWNERS_CLUB

1mo

This needs to show population growth and existing housing stock to be in any way useful information. This looks like it pretty much correlates to migration trends.

[deleted]

1mo

be cool if USA cities could figure out how to not do urban sprawl

https://www.britannica.com/topic/urban-sprawl

but im sure it wont ever happen because money

theWoodenWizard

1mo

Just for context as someone who works in the construction industry in the Harrisburg area we are building houses like there is no tomorrow. So yes, Pittsburgh’s new home construction is definitely lagging behind but also Harrisburg is punching way above its population.

AnonymousPGH

-2

1mo

ProHousingPGH is wholly owned by YIMBY Action, a group located in California cashing checks. Feel free to view my history, our neighborhood had to fight these assholes to keep Frick Park whole.

Want more messages like this? $10,000 gets you access! Business Membership - YIMBY Action

diabeet0

1mo

No they aren’t lol. a lot of people arguing through the irish center debacle completely ignored the fact that it’s literally not in Frick park. I hike there every weekend and I’m a bigger environmentalist than about everyone I know, and I think it should’ve been built.

AnonymousPGH

1mo

A. Yes they even say that they are a chapter of YIMBY Action, because they have to, by law.

B. The Irish Center debacle ended exactly as it should've. Only morons still think that project was a good idea after the testimony from geologists and engineers at the zoning board hearing.

diabeet0

1mo

Opposing more dense housing in the city is directly opposed to environmentalism. Being a NIMBY is contrary to being an environmentalist and people who opposed it on faulty environmental reasons need more critical thinking skills. And why does it matter that they’re a chapter of YIMBY action? Local Unions are all chapter/ local unions of of larger national groups, that’s generally how nonprofits work.

AnonymousPGH

1mo

Wow, a 200 unit luxury building that would've displaced 35,000 cubic yards of park, causing dump trucks to run 24/7 for WEEKS just to remove. Really environmentally conscious to build something with no access to sidewalks, public transit, or even enough parking. You're a hack or a dumbass, and either way, I'm done talking to you.

diabeet0

1mo

It wouldn’t have displaced any part of the park because it is not part of the park, have you ever looked at a map of frick park before? You’re an anti environmentalist and a NIMBY, go read a book.

grlsjustwannabike

Beechview

1mo

"owned"? Ma'am we are a chapter of a national organization

AnonymousPGH

1mo

Yikes. Okay, you're a chapter of a national organization that is paid speech for the real estate lobby. Why are you a chapter of them instead of being your own thing?

grlsjustwannabike

Beechview

1mo

We are our own thing. And also part of a national movement. I fail to see what the issue is.

AnonymousPGH

1mo

Oh no, I understand that you don't see what the problem is. We're done here, Kelsey.

grlsjustwannabike

Beechview

1mo

Who is Kelsey? Ma'am this is a Wendy's

nerdkid93

Bloomfield

1mo

Oh look! It's the throwaway account for Street_Possession871 again!

Zealousideal_Bet4105

-2

1mo

Why build houses when there are so many in the area that need rehabbed?

jdogg834

-1

1mo

Does this include Butler county?

mikethelegacy

1mo

What is the area of this study? I can tell you that north of Pittsburgh they are building a SHIT load of housing. It’s possible the cities on the lower end are more like Pittsburgh where people are more likely to commute from outside the city.

PaleBluDottie

1mo

Right - Evans City area and areas like that, but are they really considered "Pittsburgh"

Efficient_Swimmer_39

1mo

Is anyone intimately familiar with the Tiny House laws and zoning restrictions within the city? Where do I discover such things?

Great-Cow7256

-3

1mo

what's the source of these data?

AnonymousPGH

-1

1mo

Here's a source of valid data that says we have one of the highest vacancy rates in the country.

Cities Where Housing Vacancy Rates Are Highest – 2023 Study - SmartReads by SmartAsset | SmartAsset

grlsjustwannabike

Beechview

1mo

So you think everyone should be forced to live in homes that were built on average in 1940 or before? Where are these homes, are they where people want to live, are they in good shape? You don't seem to want to account for that.
Let me guess, you're a homeowner yourself, aren't you? What, you scared your property values will go down? Go cry about it...
Anyways, thanks for proving the point - your source shows PGH as one of the lowest in terms of "5 year growth in new housing"

lampusthelampi

-4

1mo

Your graphic doesn’t fully prove your thesis. While related you only looked at Multifamily buildings. What of Single family homes? Did you not do the data on that or did the data not support your narrative?? Lazy at best, disingenuous at worst.

LostEnroute

Garfield

1mo

Do you think Pittsburgh metro competes well against other metros for building sfh? I would guess we.are.even worse at that than multifamily.

todayiwillthrowitawa

-1

1mo

I'd like to see how the comparison looks when you include SFH but I agree, more housing as fast as possible.

Stanksniffer

-11

1mo

Thanks Joe Biden!