I don’t know how to feel about. I’m happy they liked it enough to use it, but they didn’t ask or give me any shout out. Should I ask for a payment or what? Sorry, never really happened to me before.
A band I photographed and sent pictures to used my photo on a shirt without asking.
DiscussionThis. Without expectations for photographing them, you are just a fan taking photos of them and sending to them.
Creators rights will give you position to act on them using the image for promotional use and for profit and reproduction. But it will get sticky if you go after them like that if you do hope to build what you’re doing into paid with them.
Contract and expectations. Always. The difference between hobby and professional most times.
But the person who took the photo always has copyright on the photo if I am not mistaken.
True. But sending it over without stipulations could be seem as a gift.
There's no judge that would think that meant you were giving them the rights to the image. If you swap book for image, would anyone think they have the right to reproduce and sell it?
If you give it to them without stipulations. Yeah it would be seen as a gift.
Two things. The photographer holds the copyright. And it depends on the verbal or written contract, this being whatever was said or written in the email or message that was sent with the photo.
Example, someone asked to pay me for a photo I took of him. I said, I will send it to him for free, and if he uses it he has to credit me for it.
That is a clear message. Now OP just sent it without any clear conditions. That does not mean the band can use it any which way they want. I think below in the post someone explained copyright violation better and more concisely.
There is a need to be a good person on the other end too. If you’re willing to burn the bridge and go straight after creators rights with it, fine. But in my 18 years of professional photography experience, simply discussing your own mistake (sending the photos without license or stipulations) and figuring it out will go a lot further than legal action, and quoting creators rights right off the top.
That’s what my response was weighing.
It's more important to set expectations of getting paid by others. That's why you go after people who use your stuff without permission or compensation. And it is also good for the industry in general to make sure people understand that the photographers own the copyright, not the people in the pictures (even if they can limit commercial use of the photos, i.e. to endorse other products).
But sure, ask nicely first, and if you don't get the proper response, then don't be nice.
This is exactly the problem with working for free. No one thinks about the consequences - yes, it's fun to get in to shows without paying. But you set a terrible precedent for those around you, and even screw yourself out of income opportunities.
Remember, most bands won't play shows for free, so why are you providing them access to your art for free?
Say it with me: I WILL NOT WORK FOR FREE.
There are entire publications that sell ad space who use free photographers because "access".
Yeah, it’s bullshit. If enough photographers, or at least good photographers, refuse to work within that model, those publications won’t survive.
To me the funny thing is that I did it when I started. Then moved on. I currently have a publication I donate to, one that I choose. Too many entities want to charm, guilt or bully work for free. That editor then directs people to me to license my work. It's been a great working relationship because it's not one sided and the value of my work is still being exercised monetarily.
What were the terms you agreed to on this?
Edit: OP basically vacated the thread, so I guess we know what we need to know
Unless you had a contract and you sent them full res photos then just ask them to mention you on their Social media or their website when showing the photos.
Also ask for a shirt for free.
You can’t expect compensation if you didn’t have a contract.
The resolution of the images is unimportant for copyright.
true, but they couldn't print low-res images on a shirt.
You think so? How many dpi do you assume is actually seen as sharp on textile? Is it 150? Or 80? Using Topaz Giga pixel AI, you could suffice with 800 x 600 pixels.
Wow, can anybody on this sub make a point without being a dick?
Thanks for calling me a dick while I'm making a valid point.
Call em like I see em. Later.
Yes but if you have them crappy thumbnails they would need to reach out to you again for usable images.
That photos were sent, doesn't mean they since then are free to use.
WRONG
You can sue them if you want. You still own the photos. But the lawsuit will cost you more than the battle.
Don’t send images without a contract.
Small claims can get some benefit without an expensive lawyer. But yes, better to get something signed or even an email saying they agree not to use them for advertising, merchandising, or any other commercial purpose. Or even just limit it to, 'you can use the picture on instagram but nowhere else'. As long as you get a reply saying they agree in the same document or email thread that is often enough. BTW, in text messages is not good. Text messages are often not threaded so not show the full conversation in one object.
There’s a 4 part test for copyright infringement.
1) what is the intended use of the copyrighted material? (for profit or nonprofit?)
2) why is the copyrighted material being used? (Education, personal use, making money, etc.)
3) was the material’s use transformative? (Substantially changed from the original material, includes parody) How much of the original work is being used?
4) what effect does the new use have on the value of the copyrighted work? (Will people not be in the market for the original, or diminish the market value of the original due to the use?)
The material used does not have to hit all four points to be a copyright violation. The four points are balanced to determine whether fair use was applicable or if there was a violation of copyright law.
All work is copyrighted at the time of its creation and the artist is the owner of this copyright unless otherwise given/sold to another party. The caveat being if you are employed by someone and the IP created is done for that entity (example: an artist creating a character for Disney, as an employee of Disney, as a part of their job duties).
If you were contracted by an entity to create artwork or write for them, then the entity has rights to use the work but they may not reproduce it without consent of the copyright holder, which is still the artist unless the contract to create the piece specifically stated that ownership of the copyright goes to the contracting party. Refer to Community for Creative Non-violence v. Reid (1989).
So the short answer (I know, too late for that) is that you still own the copyright for the photo. The band used it without permission for a profit based venture, you were not cited, and if I understand correctly your image was used in its entirety or the majority of it without major transformations. This is enough to give you grounds to reach out to attempt to gain some compensation, in my humble opinion. If that compensation is simply a shoutout on their social media, financial compensation, or for them to stop using your image, any way you cut it, it’s your image.
Having said all that, copyright law is a funny thing and a judgement call by those, well, judging. If the band can put up better lawyers than you, they may well win if it goes to court. If all you wanted was credit then it’s worth reaching out in a friendly manner (rather than demanding and threatening) and just asking for the shoutout (and a free shirt). Things may be solved amicably and quickly.
*I am not a lawyer, I am a non-traditional college senior (read “old” and last year of college) who is majoring in communications and taken media law classes. I am not a subject matter expert and only offer the information presented to me in legal classes I have taken in conjunction with my experience working as a reporter and editor at a student run newspaper. Please do due diligence in verifying my reading and research and make decisions based on your own research. It is only my intention to give a direction to begin finding your answers.
I’ve sent unsolicited photos to bands before and say “feel free to use however you’d like”.
If they didn’t hire you, you sent them unsolicited photos, and you didn’t ask for any recognition or payment in exchange for a license to use your photos under specific circumstances, and you didn’t watermark and put “(c) 2024 u/MasterJaron, All Rights Reserved” in your email, then I really don’t know what you expected. I’m not even sure you’d have a legal copyright case since there’d arguably be an implied license.
If you want recognition, it seems like it’d be fair to say “Hey, it’s super cool you used my photo on your shirt, I didn’t know you were going to do that, could you tag me in a post on your instagram or something?”
If you want money, that’s a dick move at this point, you still hold copyright but like I said there was arguably an implied license so be prepared to piss them off and get nothing or else get a lawyer.
If the band sent music to the photographer, can OP then use their music to make money? Would you just tell the band “what did you expect?”. Artists should know better.
Like I said, OP still holds the copyright, they can try to get money (and burn all the bridges) if they want.
It's not a dick move FFS. It's a dick move to use photos to promote yourself without compensating the person taking the photos. Sure, we're going to make money from your work. In case you didn't know, MOST bands make most of their money from merchandising. If the OP didn't say, "use these on merchandising and you don't have to pay me," they have no business using it on merchandising without paying a fair price.
There’s a lot to unpack here and I went in-depth in my own post so I’m not going to restate all of that here. Suffice it to say that the best practice is to always put your expectations in the message if you want to send your work to others.
For example: “Dear [band name], I am attaching a photo I took at the show last week in Antarctica. Please feel free to use it for social media, but please credit me for the photo if you use it. If you would like to use it for marketing, please reach out to me and I am sure we can work something out.” Or, “feel free to use it for marketing as long as I get a SM shout out and a free T-shirt in 2XL.”
Or something similar that gives boundaries.
The only dick move here is the band making money while jerking OP off. Merch is a huge portion of a band's income.
If a band uses an unsolicited photo I sent them on their merch and never reached out to ask my permission, I'm perfectly fine burning that bridge. The band is in the wrong here and would be exploiting my generosity for their financial gain.
If they take the photo of someone they didn't pay, hire, or have an agreement with and use that photo on merch they then sell, if the person that actually took that photo later sends the band a cease and desist and the band gets pissed, they should just ask the band members, "what did you expect?"
The onus was on the band to get copyright before producing the merch, not on OP to accommodate after the fact.
Live and Learn, if you contacted them in the hopes of photographing them, next time put your terms up front, "social media ok, merchandise, a compensation" and it's their turn to agree or pass.
At this point, like most people have said, just ask for a t-shirt
Honor your upfront contract. If your pics were 'given away' they're free game. Never give up your rights to photos. Lesson Learned. Move on.
Giving someone a copy of a photo, no matter who is in it or whether it was free or not, is NOT giving up the rights to the photos you took. The photographer ALWAYS retains the rights to the photos and how they may be used UNLESS there is a contract giving up those rights. As far as how the photos are used, if there are recognizable people or places in them, model and location releases are only required for photos used for commercial purposes, read 'advertising'.
Just be stoked. That’s awesome that they liked your photo enough to print it. Ask them for a shirt and make sure they know you are stoked. Take a picture of the shirt and post it alongside the original image in your portfolio or social media. Ask them if they’d be interested in a shoot (get paid this time) but be stoked. It’s cool.
Honestly, just say cool thanks and share the hell out of it on your socials. There is nothing else to be done. If it's a small local band with no money, it's not worth ruining the relationship by asking for payment. Not sure of the backstory here, but if they went to your socials and pulled a photo of yours without asking, that's different. But if you shot the photo for them and sent them the photo, they, like most people, felt compelled to use it because it was given to them. Going forward, when you shoot a band, talk to them about usage and ask what they will be doing with the shots. Have a price sheet ready to go with your rates. At that time you can decide to gift the images or request payment for the shoot and the usage rights.
Obviously you won’t get paid if this wasn’t agreed, but why don’t you just message them and say:
“Glad you loved my pic enough to put it on a t shirt! I’d love to work with you formally- let me know if you have some upcoming gigs I can document for you, and I’d love a couple of your t shirts to give out to friends, if you’ve got some spare”
I'm betting if Ford or GMC (just an example of a business) used one of their songs without so much as a mention they'd be pissed. It shouldn't be an issue to explain to other artists that you don't take someone else's work and profit off it without so much as a mention or even a thank you.
Why did you send them images?
Why did you send them images with no watermark or proof markings?
Why did you send them images with higher enough resolution to print?
I think you're entitled to a free shirt, which I would totally ask for cause it's probably a cool shirt.
What does your contract say?
JUST SEND A BILLING STATING THE LIST OF YOUR SERVICES.
THEN EMPHASIZE A DISCOUNT.
If you had a contract you could easily go after them for doing anything outside of it.
If you don't, if they're just using the shirt themselves it doesn't matter.
If they're selling the shirt, then that is likely not legal, but you'll have to prove in court that you did not hand over rights to that image, and without a contract... you'll struggle.
This why you should never send out high resolution pictures without a contract outlining what the rights of use is for
What does your paperwork state about the shoot? Was it for PR, Social Media or Unlimited usage? Yes, you should be compensated to any merchandising but it all goes back to your paperwork. I'd register the images immediately with LOC to maximize your protection under Copyright Law.
What does "LOC" mean? (Sorry about the naive question!)
Library of Congress
Thanks!
If you want some cash - I’d keep it light. But my guess would be they’re probably losing money on the shirts anyway if it’s a small local band.
“I noticed you used my image. Awesome! Don’t forget about me on the way up! I know I gave you the photo. Can you return the favor and hook me up with a shirt? (And 25% of the profits? 😂)”
Did you give them the photos for free, or was there financial agreement, or a contract of usage, or contract at all? If none of those, unfortunately it's a lesson learned situation and they have free reign.
More info is needed from OP. Simply sending a photo to somebody doesn't allow that person to use it however they want
More context.
So, about a year ago I started doing photos at concerts and small shows. Going to shows and photography are my two biggest passions. I reached out to a band I liked and asked if I could photograph the show. They said of course. I send them the photos and they love them. I said to them they could have them. No contract or anything. Just a DIY artists supporting artists thing.
Depends on the country and legislation...
You weren’t working as a pro so it’s end of story unfortunately… I worked as them for credit on social media though I think, it’s a gesture in their part.
Bands are really bad about this. They will Let you photograph them but they retain all the rights unless otherwise negotiated.
Legality aside...
Most photos printed on a shirt are going to look absolutely terrible, and I'm guessing this is no exception.
If they're selling it, I doubt they're making much money from it. Thus, there's no pot to split. And since you sent the photos without any restrictions, they will probably feel scammed if you hit them up for money now.
So if you complain, I expect they would just stop using the photo and start badmouthing you. It's not worth it. Best you can do is really send them a friendly message like "Hey, I saw you really liked my photo! Would you mind giving my Instagram a shoutout?"
And in the future, communicate your expectations clearly especially when sending unsolicited photos. If you don't, most people will assume you're giving them permission to use the photos any way they see fit.
Too late. No contract, no compensation asked for, not a peep.
Chall it up as "learning experience".
Update:
I reached out to them directly. Explained my feelings and they apologized and explained it was a mishap on their part. Nothing was done intentionally and thought they had sent me a message about it. We came to an agreement I was happy with.
More context.
So, about a year ago I started doing photos at concerts and small shows. Going to shows and photography are my two biggest passions. I reached out to a band I liked and asked if I could photograph the show. They said of course. I send them the photos and they love them. I said to them they could have them. No contract or anything. Just a DIY artists supporting artists thing.
Sounds like a success; you supported them by providing photography for their use.
So what's the problem?
Dude at this point you volunteered to take photos of them for free, then you gave the photos for free. Asking for payment would be a huge no no in my book - had you sent the drafts and then asked for payment before releasing the hi res versions if they wanted them or if you had a contract it would be different.
But you gave them something without stipulations for use, so they CAN use them however they want whenever they want since that was basically implied when volunteered to do free work and then sent them the final products.
Sorry dude all you can do is like tell as many people as possible that that is your photo, post that photo on your website and IG, comment on every post they make of that shirt saying ‘hey that’s my photo!’ Or something and just get it out there that it’s yours so people know. But do not ask for payment, that’s how you get a band to hate you haha
A shout out would be acceptable to ask for (not demand) imo, but not payment.
My issues with this are your use of the words ‘passion’ and ‘said to them they could have them’ - and now you’re complaining. Do something else with your time if you’re going to be this precious mate
With this, you gave them explicit permission to use them "they could have them, no contract or anything" is actually a contract.
You could ask for recognition in the sales material and maybe a shout out (and the free shirt that u/iggyfenton mentioned) - but apart from recognition (which is a basic right for an artist under the berne conventions on copyright), you can't expect any of it.
You willingly offered to take their photos. You didnt set boundaries on usage…. As someone who has shot tons of “smaller” shows. I have had bands willingly use my images on tons of things without my knowledge. Even as far as buying a record and discovering my photo was used on the vinyl itself or in magazines. Hell, even had a now very famous punk/hardcore band rip one of my youtube videos for their second ever music video… But at the end of the day, i provided the images/video and never expected anything in return. If you expect things in return, its your responsibility to set the conditions.
You can absolutely claim compensation if you want, contact a copyright attorney, file the images the band ripped off to make money with to the copyright office if you want it. Even if it's just to get a percentage of sales. Just because you take photos for free and give that to them doesn't give them full license to do whatever. If I give you a copy of my book and I am the author, and I say, do whatever you want, doesn't mean you get to then copy the entire name and sell it. If you feel wronged, contact an attorney.
In fact you gave the band pictures without any sort of contract? How is that going, buster? I bet the pictures didn't have any form of watermark too. No, that's not very clever, although you could use law enforcement, you'd also have to prove you were allowed to photograph them.
it sucks, but without a usage agreement...
They are violating federal copyright law and are ripping you off. They are making money off of your work. Register your work at the copyright office the proper way, and contact a copyright attorney.
OP would be within their rights to do that... but it would destroy any chance of ever working with that band again, and the band will probably bad-mouth them to other bands.
Unless they're an established band that plays in actual concert halls (not just local bars), they're probably young, broke, and drunk half the time, so there's not much to be gained from going after them.
OP, let them know you're delighted to work with them, but you should be involved when they want to use the pics for merchandise. Say it as a friend and an admirer of their work. Cultivating this relationship will do you far more good in the long run than the small amount they'd pay for selling a few shirts - especially if they someday make it big.
Dial it down a bit. I’m friends with a lot of small bands and shoot their shows all the time.
Many are barely organized enough to get to the gig with all of their equipment let alone think about contracts for a random person taking photos and sending it to them, nor do they have the money for that kind of stuff and aren’t exactly raking it in with their shirts. Most of my friends in bands, even when signed to a label, still have other jobs and live with multiple roommates. Being a gigging musician is so hard.
Plus, word travels fast. If OP wants to keep photographing gigs, best to not bring a lawyer into it.
I provide lots of free photos to bands and just tell them to give me credit. Many have come back and offered to pay me for future events. (I usually just ask for free entry for now.)
I wasn't even suggesting to go to court but since they ripped the photographer off, the photographer should get a percentage. The band didn't negotiate anything at all, did not consult the person who is in charge of their work. There should be negotiations at the very least. If someone borrows my car without my permission, it's still wrong if they apologize for it later. They broke the trust of the photographer and betrayed the photographer. It means they don't respect the photographer or their work enough to care. It's not about how much they make or didn't make. If you give up your right to your own work, no one else will defend the value of your workmanship either. After all, it's free right?
Everyone is your friend when you give up your work for free, sure.
Nobody is your friend when you threaten to sue them for innocuous things.
I was friends with these people before I started photographing them. I support queer/trans musicians and artists who are struggling to get by. I’m not going to show up at their gigs, photograph them, and then try to sell it. If I wanted to make more money, I’d just pick up more shifts with my regular job.
I have a good day job and this is my way of helping them succeed. You also missed the part where I said they offer me paying gigs afterwards…usually album release parties and stuff. The amount they can reasonably afford to pay me currently is a fraction of what I make per hour during my day job though.
That's fine, work for free for the opportunity, but don't get mad if people don't want to pay you if you want to get paid when you a job comes up where you want the money. If your work is that innocuous to you then no one, including you, would care if you got ripped off. I didn't say anything about a lawsuit. Again, bring them to the table for negotiations. The op said they don't know how to feel about it, which means, they clearly don't think being ripped off is cool. If the op thought it was cool, they wouldn't have made this post. If they can't afford to commit the crime, they shouldn't have ripped the artist off to begin with. If they respected the artist, they would have at least asked.
You mentioned bringing a copyright lawyer into the mix.
If someone contacted me and asked if it was okay to photograph my event, sent me photos of the event afterwards where one of my teammates thought it was cool and used it for a tshirt, and then that photographer came in with a copyright lawyer wanting money after the fact, most people would consider him a dbag and not work with him.
I’m not going to be mad about not getting paid because I’m not being hired, I’m volunteering. I don’t find it particularly challenging and, if anything, it lets me shut my brain off from the regular work and be in the moment. I also don’t have any responsibility to provide service or an end product. If I go and don’t like anything I took, oh well, deleted. Frankly, most of us (and I’m definitely including myself in this) are not that special and could easily be replaced.
If you want to make money doing it, absolutely go into it with a contract and defined expectations. Just don’t pull a switcheroo or retroactive BS.
Also, you reallllllly overestimate how much money most of these bands have. I was literally sent a gofundme because members of a (signed) band were losing their housing and had nowhere to go like 2 weeks ago.
I was offered a gig touring with a band for about a month. They reached out to me because they liked what I did. I had a contract for that and said how much it would take for me to come along (I’d probably be burning half of my vacation for the year unless I flew back to NYC several times- there was NO way they could’ve afforded me if I took leave without pay) along with requiring them to cover my hotel room. They couldn’t cover it, so I didn’t do it.
I have the liberty of doing this because I don’t need it to live. Yes, I’d approach things differently if I did need it to live and that wouldn’t involve sending photos until there is an agreement and money in hand.
The band should absolutely credit the photographer. You could almost certainly make the money faster by doing other jobs than the time/effort of hiring a copyright lawyer to nickel and dime a band selling a handful of 15 dollar t shirts, poorly pressed vinyl, and cassettes near the coat check every week or two….and you wouldn’t come off as a litigious jerk that nobody would want to hire in the process.
Once you’ve sewn that seed, even if there is a contract, it is just harder for people to trust you.
If I give you a photobook and say "do with it what you want", does it mean I can just copy the entire book and sell it? What about one page of it and put that print on a T shirt for sale? No one would question what the right thing to do is. It absolutely doesn't mean you have a free license to do anything you please forever. You can feel whatever way you want about it. If someone stabs someone else and injures them and the perpetrator says "well, I don't have any money" it doesn't exonerate them from their crime or damages. The people who are in the wrong are the ones who used the images to make money off of something they didn't own. What if the photographer took the band's entire Playlist, went to every venue that the band was photographed at, and that photographer played the bands music and took it from the other band, would that be fair or right? Of course not. The reason the person posted this is because they felt wronged by the band that they like and trusted. Anyhow, if you value your work, you will protect it. This is another example of artist are the worst enemy when it comes to defending other artists. Artist are great at making good art but most are terrible at business and great at giving up their own work for free. Cases like this prove exactly that.
More context.
“So, about a year ago I started doing photos at concerts and small shows. Going to shows and photography are my two biggest passions. I reached out to a band I liked and asked if I could photograph the show. They said of course. I send them the photos and they love them. I said to them they could have them. No contract or anything. Just a DIY artists supporting artists thing.”
You don't need a contract to feel violated or rip someone off by federal law with copyright infringement. Let me put it to you this way, if the photographer made a band, playing the exact same music, made money at the exact same venue, and the venue didn't hire the band because of it, would the band feel violated? You bet they might feel some sort of way. Thank you for more context though, it does help clarify.
If you offer your services and images for free to the band how are you ripped off or violated? regret may be an appropriate feeling but withdrawing consent a year later, after the use, isn’t really a thing.
Your strawman is ridiculously stupid.
There is no signed agreement saying the band can use them any which way in all universes known or unknown, in perpetuity either. There is no agreement.
“I said to them they can have them”. Even if it was just verbal it holds weight.
If I am an author and I give you a copy of my book for free, do you get the right to copy every single page of my book and release it to the world for money? What about an important quote that is in there that gets printed on shirts for money? No, absolutely not unless the artist doesn't care about protecting their work. Again, a copyright attorney should be involved for negotiations, not artists like you or I.
You are doing a bad job at strawman. The photographer here was given permission to shoot, explicitly gave them the product. Also said “artist suppprting artists”. They didnt say you are allowed to “look at my photos” the photos were given to the band. What “support” would be implied of look at my photos but that’s all you can do?
It’s shitty they didnt reach out to OP, but nothing was actually done wrong here.
The product isn't specified in the unwritten agreement either. Is it here are the images, you can use them for what ever you choose to them forever? Nope.
If an artist offers to shoot for free, doesn't mean that they get to use the image any which way either. And if the artist wanted to press for it, the artist could got that direction of seeking compensation.
When they say “you can have the images” it is granting them ownership. It’s why contracts and stipulations are important.
You can have my book doesn't mean copy it either though.
Did you have a contract?