Well I am from Sweden and we have spent centuries digging up Viking graves and calling them Men if they were buried holding a Sword pointing down their body, between their legs. Typical Viking Warrior Grave. Phallic as fuck. Well suprise, in the last decade or so we have started doing genuine physical checks on the remains and like 20% of tested remains were biological women. Turns out 200 years of present day gender roles has fuck all to say about a 1000 year old civilization.
You know that lazy transphobic joke about them misgendering you a thousands years from now?
(Some might even be trans, fuck if we know)
Trans Viking Trans Viking
One of my historical ancestry (compared to an archaeological site’s DNA) results had an elderly individual in the Viking era listed as “female?” but they went a little deeper and discovered they were XY. So I believe in trans Vikings!
Not to be that guy, but where do these data come from? I ask because I feel like most of the ancestry services are scams
This particular one was 23 and Me. Honestly did it more for the health reports, which confirmed slight predispositions to things with which I’ve been diagnosed, as well as the regional/ethnic genealogy my mom researched via other methods at the cost of things like parenting time.
Thank you!
literally screamed "THATS SO COOOOL" out loud as soon as I clicked that link
Ohhh my 🫣
Wow! Muscle mommy Valhalla! Ty!
New gender identity unlocked
That's my nickname xD
Greetings my Vikings, Viqueens and Viwarriors
What about the trans viking king thing?
I hope it comes on right after The Lesbian Hunter!
I swear, sometimes I'll be watching a historical investigation / documentary and they will describe textbook behavior of someone with autism or dysphoria or even a TBI, and they will throw their arms up in the air like its a big mystery without even mentioning possible explanations.
Drives. Me. Batshit!
trans warriors up there enjoying valhalla
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Ah yes, this speck of ash is a male speck of ash.
“Male speck of ash” sounds like a trans poetry book.
New gender (tho probs masc for me instead of male lol)
I’m enby and my name is Ash, this is great
1000 years from now archeologists are going to find me wearing my camel leather jacket and gold framed aviator sunglasses and rule that I was too cool for one gender, which would be accurate
Badass
Unironically though, future archaeologists will definitely use remains such as clothing to help guess someone's gender because they will be aware of the existence of trans people. If there's no clothing, they will still know that you can't assume gender from a skeleton alone.
Really, conservatives are the ones who should be losing sleep about being misgendered by future archaeologists...their skeleton might get called they/them, the absolute horror
You're gonna put the rave in grave.
Also what does it matter what your bones say about you? Do they think that thousands of years from now a guy who’s had a long and good life surrounded by people he loves is going to cry because his bones said he was a female? Unless his marrow was made from emerald dust I don’t really care about bones, I’ve always figured it’s what they’re buried with/like that matters
Human bones can tell us about a lot more than sex. For example in the realms of injury, disease and medicine.
Right, but the question wasn’t “what can people learn from archeological discoveries”, it was “why would a dead person care if they were misgendered thousands of years later”
You’re right thought that there’s a lot that can be learned
One of the first things archaeologists will note is how tall you are, how good your teeth are, and so on. The people who are intensely insecure about themselves probably fret over those more hereditary attributes too, and so we see it leak out of them with the bones remark.
Ironically, if they were more accepting of those who dare to reject so-called "intrinsic" traits, they wouldn't feel so insecure in the hostile world they helped create.
Unless his marrow was made from emerald dust
That is a very specific qualifier.
Nice avatar😎
Bold of them to assume my body will be preserved enough for study... or that I would be of historical significance
Yup, I plan on being cremated, and my ashes put into the family cemetery... hopefully many many years from now, and not from some freak accident/aneurysm a week from now.
I still have stuff on my bucket list, including beating BoTW Master Quest and Kaizo Mario World!!!
1000 years from now, an archaeologist with an as-yet unknown xenogender examines the skeletal remains of a trans person: “why the FUCK is there plastic in all of these skeletons???”
Lol yep. Leave it to the basic biologists to not bother getting the details right in archeology either.
Archaeology after all isn’t usually taught in middle school so how should they know the basics like they do in biology?
Listen I learned everything I needed to know about archaeology from Indiana Jones.
THIS BELONGS IN A MUSEUM
The fact that we watched Indiana Jones in class yesterday makes this a lot funnier
SO DO YOU
There were rats, Dad. Rats.
Tbf they don't actually know much about biology either, they just claim to be experts
no, they explicitly say their knowledge ends at basic biology. Like someone proudly saying "yeah I only know addition and subtraction! it's just basic maths!"
Then you show them algebra and they die from a heart attack.
X and y aren’t numbers, you can’t use those for math! It’s just basic mathematics!!!
Look at this person, their school didn’t have AP Archeology!
Jk neither did mine.
This is a poem from a Jewish rabbi in the 1300s who was called a gay man for decades.
This is the shit we deal with when it comes to history. Anything effeminate gets labeled as "homosexual" or "eunuch". Trans people are absent from history because historians have buried our past with their own misinformation, ignorance, and even bigotry.
This broke my heart 💔 😢. The pain leaps from every word, the longing from every stanza.
This is why when I'm buried I want to be upright in a throne, wearing ceremonial plate armor, (with the stylized breasts) holding a sword, wearing a crown, and have a ton of references to the queen carved all over the tomb. Oh... And lots of booby traps.
Boob plate armour, mi amor. Also, name checks out.
Hell yes. I want those archaeologists confused af
Every anthropologist I've ever spoken to (okay, it's only like 3) has said that joke pisses them off because of how untrue it is. One of them is even right wing, and is a bit transphobic herself. She still asserts they don't assume anything about their gender or how they were viewed in their culture because we just don't know.
The whole argument is ridiculous anyway because it goes against the entire point of archaeology.
The whole point is to study and learn about past cultures. The biological sex of a skeleton doesn't tell you shit - their gender presentation, the things they were buried with, and other markers in their grave are what you can actually learn from, and the thing that any archaeologist is going to be actually interested in.
Learning their were either Women Viking warriors and/or Trans Man Vikings is pretty cool to me. Assuming the testing is accurate
One cool thing I'd say is proving that our so called notion of "traditional" gender isn't even traditional or sex-based. Sexist dudes from the last century created the hunter-gatherer hypothesis because they could not fathom women also hunting alongside men. Transphobes argue that trans identities are a new thing. Finding archaeological proof debunking both groups is satisfying and will slowly work to dismantle stereotypes and prejudice.
Of course, we'll never know the gender presentation of the buried person, and I do think that should be mentioned, but we can at least say that that society either accepted women in combat, or that they accepted trans men (and the same for trans women I'd hope).
The sexist dude way of life was also not ever universal.
My family all come from rural Scotland. We did one of those trace your ancestor things, but also my granny was basically the family historian going back into the late 1800s. The one things that sticks out is that people just did whatever job they were given, and only in a few cases was this strictly segregated by gender.
If it’s a windy night on the farm, and the fence has blown down and the cows have got out, then everyone is going to retrieve those cows. If you can get work doing the accounts in a local business then they only care if you can do maths. Only really the jobs working in “the big house” were separated along genders and that was because they only wanted ladies being the maids and they can afford to hire someone in from a few miles away if they need to.
In a small isolated town a worker is a worker and if you were old enough to work you would work. There’s a small pool of people to choose from so there was less room to be fussy about who did what.
Like, it’s wild to me how many dudes think that women all stayed at home looking after the house and baking cookies. Wealthy ladies got to stay home, everyone else had the double duty of childcare and also other menial jobs away from home.
Forensic scientists in the US didn't even realize a trans woman had been murdered until they tested the DNA decades later. Why hadn't they known? Because hormones change your bones.
That's insane!
Sexual development has never been binary, and determining details of the anatomy from bones has always been wild guesswork.
im actually gonna get the words "they/them" laser engraved in my bones after i die
They also found this with graves in south america. This was more about bronze age hunter graves, if I remember correctly. It was a mass grave with about 80 skeletons all buried with their hunting weapons until like 10 years ago a newcomer helped them at the side and was like:
New guy: Wow, wild they were all men! I could swear this one has a female hip bone... but I guess DNA doesn't lie!
Archeologists: ...
New guy: You did check their DNA, right, and not just assumed they were all men?
Archeologists: ...
Turned out, many of them were women (I can't remember the exact number) but it was close to 50%
People forget archaeology is a branch of anthropology
And anthropologists have likely contributed the most to our understanding of gender from the start of civilization to now.
I don't know about you, but I'm not sure yet if I really care about people from the future misgendering me. I'll be too busy being a spooky skeleton. And also I'll be dead.
Hear me out, get our pronouns etched into our bones
Once I'm gone my pronouns be was/were anyways
I've recently started watching archeology videos on youtube and occasionally they'll say something like "8 skeletons were definitely male, 3 were likely male, 4 were definitely female, 1 was likely female, and the rest are unknown".
The idea that you can look at a skeleton and instantly know it's gender is nonsense. Like all TERF talking points, they vaguely remember a thing, assume it agrees with them, and then start presenting what every they make up as fact.
Hehehehe, im just thinking aboit this scenario like "Agneta just died, we need to bury her" yeah ill mark her grave with the cock sign cause she had massive balls on her
(Please avoid using the term "biological woman" in future thank you!)
You know, I knew about that and thought about it for a whole ten seconds. Biological women is what I said. And the incels have already poisoned the word female so whatvis Left?
You could just say they were probably trans (or intersex) men. Even AFAB would be better than “biological women”. Using the term biological women to describe what are most likely trans men is misgendering (which is exactly what you’re trying not to do) and it’s offensive to trans women as well as it’s used to say that they aren’t real women.
In this context AFAB would not be right either though. We have no idea what they were or weren't assigned at birth as we have no written record. We need some other term.
It’s the most accurate (besides just saying they’re trans and or intersex men) there’s not going to be a perfect term so we have to settle for something semi-accurate.
The most accurate would be to say they have XX chromosomes as that is the actual evidence we have.
Making statements related to our modern understanding of gender on what someone was or wasn't assigned at birth a thousand years ago, with no other evidence other than their grave goods is not a good idea.
Edit cause I wrote the chromosomes wrong
*XX chromosomes. I guess that is the most accurate but trans people have existed since the beginning of time and were even accepted as their gender in certain societies so it isn’t entirely inaccurate to say, at least some of the bodies found were probably trans.
I feel like an idiot now getting the chromosomes wrong, I need to go to bed.
For sure trans people have always existed, and some of those bodies were probably people who were trans.
I was taking issue with specifically using AFAB, as it's a modern term that partially exists just because we feel it necessary to assign someone's gender on their birth certificate. I feel that contextually it just doesn't make sense outside of modern times.
Fair enough. You aren’t an idiot though, it’s an easy mistake to make.
You could say they were likely cis women. While yes it is very likely that they were indeed "biological women" as you say since the option to change one's biology was extremely limited to impossible at the time. The term has been poisoned by TERFs looking for ways to alienate trans women as "not REAL (aka biological) women", which is not even 100% true even as they intend the meaning, since a trans woman who has medically transitioned these days with the wonders of modern medicine is more biologically female than male.
But the point of this post is that they were buried as men which means they’re most likely trans (or intersex men).
Oh, I took the meaning to be that the burial rite of sword-between-legs was not a male/female thing at all, but some other indicator (ie warrior caste)
Understandable.
Assigned female at birth...
We have no idea what people thousands of years ago were "assigned at birth" though, especially in this case where the whole point is that they were buried in a way that suggests they may have been perceived as male in life. The most accurate way to talk about it would be to specify how sex was determined, e.g. they have XX chromosomes.
There is no way to determine chromosomes from skeletal remains. In fact it is notoriously difficult and not 100% accurate to determine sex at all from skeletal remains (which makes the whole transphobic rant about misgendering a trans person's skeleton 1000 years from now even more ridiculous).
I'm not sure how sex was determined but my comment is in agreement with you that 'biological woman' isn't the best term and suggesting a more specific alternative (edit - which would only be XX chromosomes if that was the method used, in case that was unclear). Where is the transphobic rant you're referring to? I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment or are referring to something else.
Oh I was referring to the typical transphobic rant as mentioned in the title of the post - not anything you had said.
Ah ok. Someone sent me a "reddit cares" so I assume someone interpreted it that way.
Aw well thats just wordy 😰
Yeah, it's almost like sex/gender is more complicated than one word can encapsulate.
Yeah… Wish it wasn’t so complicated to explain to old ppl😔
Sex is encapsulated by the word biological though.
Edit: Gender defo isn't though.
Uh huh, and plenty of trans women are closer to biologically female than male, and vice-versa for trans men. So what would you propose? Should we just lie about the biological realities of medical transition for the sake of easier vocabulary?
Female is a medical term?
Did I say that?
I meant that since female is a medical term you shouldn’t have a problem using it even though incels use it negatively
Female is not necessarily a medical term and is also used to refer to the female gender (ie "woman"). Jeez you guys do we need like a gender 101 course on this sub or something?
1000 years from now, someone’s going to dig up your bones and say “AH FUCK THAT SPOOKS ME”
Nån sa Sverige!
Couldnt fucking care less what they make of my bones when im gone tbh. No matter how bad they wish i wasnt. I will always be a woman
That’s interesting. Can you link an article for me to look more into this new tech? Im very curious
Reminds me of a poem
https://youtu.be/esr96IYX6Yc?si=q2BTi9F-ruIPzz2q
Pasting the text of the poem in the video for those who prefer reading it.
notes on the seasons by Roque Raquel Salas Riviera
in spanish, we don’t naturally occur. the seasons differentiate us from natural people. when there are no seasons, let’s say, when we are a caribbean country, better yet, when we are a territory, we aren’t allowed to use the x, except for the word xylophone, because who uses a xylophone? and who wants us? every time you think these questions aren’t the same, you recognize that you never met me, despite the i’ve seen you before and somewhere. if i’m going to explore my nationality, i have to be recognizable. this is what everyone knows. in fact, if i’m not recognizable, it’s as if i had no nation.
i wrote the following in a letter to the lions of the mayagüez zoo:
i know that right now you are lions, and you’ve spent a lot of time in the heat, but when you become snakes, no fence will be able to contain you. they’ll have to put you in a glass cage. they call this cage a fish tank. they’ll decorate the cage with rocks. you’ll no longer be able to roar. but don’t worry, when you become spiders, you’ll be able to leave the fish tank. you’ll climb up to the roof. maybe it’ll take you many weeks to find a window, but in the interim, you’ll eat mosquitos, since these are abundant, despite the aromatic candles.
i wrote them this letter because i know what it’s like to wait for transmogrification.
i wrote them this letter because i know what it’s like to wait for transmogrification in captivity.
outside of the fish tank, there is a room. outside of the room, there is a zoo. outside of the zoo, there is a hometown. outside of the hometown, there is a colony. outside of the colony, there is an empire. outside of the empire, there is the king of seasons. if you kill the king, you kill the game.
I plan to be cremated. Checkmate, transphobes. Dust in the wind.
...so they found out the difference between some of the skeletons' sexes... but that's proving the point of their "joke". That I (a trans man) well die some day and people could find my bones and check the DNA and note the bones sex differences and go "ah a female, she ...." and incorrectly gender me because my natal sex didn't match my gender identity. And same with finding a trans woman's body but mistaking it for a man. The social aspect of burial rights between the sexes or between warriors and such is not part of their joke.
I don't like the idea but also I'll be dead by that time and either nonexistant consciousness wise OR I'll be living another life and unable to recognize someone is talking about my bones from the previous life time. Lol
So here's the thing, depending on your field, some people consider sexing skeletons to be pseudoscience, and I actually fall into that camp
Hmmm for me i don't believe it falls into psuedoscience. its not entirely accurate just because of biological variations but that's the study of biology for you. the understanding of averages in human variations and DNA we can get fairly close to accurate, of course with older remains is next to impossible to verify if the guess is correct. And then we trans folk add another level of variation on top of that.
My skeleton will, in Bethesda game fashion, be found situated in a comical way. Perhaps with a cup on my head or something.
Nobody will be digging up the bones of modern skeletons, if there even are any given that nearly everyone gets cremated these days.
And everyone involved will have been dead for roughly 1000 years.
The whole premise is ridiculous.
I tend to think that humans won’t be around in 1000 years to dig up any bones in the first place.
I’m going to be cremated and want to be a tree.
Eh, if you said that a thousand years ago the BLACK DEATH was still head of Us and we as a spiecies survived that.
Gender roles aren't the same across cultures and across time. The fact that one of the main goddesses of the Norse pantheon, Freya, was a goddess of war and fertility tells us that they didn't view war as purely a masculine domain.
Throughout history, we see women in battle. While sexism has also been a thing since ancient times, it's mostly in recent years that we have imposed the idea that ONLY masculine men can be warriors and ALL women just stay at home to tend to children. Of course, this theory gets disproven time and again.
Yk, I don’t think I’ve ever personally cared about what’ll happen 1000 years from now with my bones, I’ll be dead lmfao, won’t care if I’m gendered correctly (female), or as a dude or a they/them… cause I’m dead
Heh.. yeaa. Ärligt talat dock, är så glad att våra forskare fucking äntligen faktiskt börjat, du vet, forska. Det är inte som att det var omöjligt att se om mänskliga kvarlevor var från kvinnor eller män förr, vi har kunnat se skillnaden hur jävla länge som helst, dom bara antog- asså det är genuint löjligt. Men ja, de kanske var trans vem vet, skulle va svincoolt men- ja, sexism.. patriarkatet. Allt sånt. Är trött.
4 missing replies
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