what is considered being fluent in a language?

Discussion

so i was thinking about studying a new language but i wanna see if i need to improve in any other language first. for example, i speak greek but sometimes i read a bit slow and my vocab can be seen as small, but i can handle a conversation in greek really well, is that being fluent?

what many people consider being fluent is being able to speak the language perfectly or almost perfectly. which means having a huge vocab, perfect grammar, perfect pronunciation, basically being able to blend in with native speakers.

though ive also seen that being fluent is being comfortable with the language, like not having to always "translate" what you hear or being able to speak the language at the pace you normally speak in your native language. sometimes knowing the language well enough to understand its slang can be considered reaching the "fluent speaker" level.

so what exactly can make someone be considered a fluent speaker in a language?

btw sorry for possibly using the wrong tag if i did use the wrong one

in languagelearningby ExplanationOk2757🇬🇷🇩🇪 N | 🇬🇧 fluent

62%

14d

IAmGilGunderson

🇺🇸 N | 🇮🇹 (CILS B1) | 🇩🇪 A0

14d

Fluent does not have a set and universally agreed upon qualitative or quantitative meaning.

For what a person is able "to do" in a language, it is possible to use the CEFR framework. It is one possible framework to judge a person's language ability but it is not the only one.

B2 in the CEFR could be seen as fluent. But people might argue that.

One can see the Self-assessment Grids Link to the English Version Use the grid for your native language when assessing your target language skills.

Extended Version of the Checklist in English.

For further clarifications see the CEFR Companion Volume 2020 which goes into much greater detail and has skills broken down much further depending on context.

Nuclear_rabbit

14d

Also, fluency is only tangentially related to CEFR level. Fluency is a subskill meaning "speed." It's possible to have a C2-level grasp of grammar and vocabulary and high reading fluency, but little speaking fluency and zero listening fluency... this is generally how dead languages are taught, and living ones in certain contexts.

On the other hand, someone can be A2 level, but really master the little bit they know, achieving high speaking fluency, maybe at the cost of grammatical correctness.

IAmGilGunderson

🇺🇸 N | 🇮🇹 (CILS B1) | 🇩🇪 A0

14d

Anytime I have brought that up I get downvoted like I insulted someone's mother.

joshua0005

🇺🇸 N | 🇲🇽 Int

14d

That's strange lol

furyousferret

🇺🇸 N | 🇫🇷 | 🇪🇸

14d

What I dislike about the self assessment grids is its really up to interpretation. An A2 could easily put themselves at B2 and a B2 at A2 if they are harsh with themselves.

There are people put themselves at B2 and still haven't touched native content, and people that think they are at A2, and can function in their TL. So it becomes a situation of the glass half full people rating themselves higher than the glass half empty people.

I don't know what the answer is to really evaluate people, I just know on this CEFR flairs do more harm than good (unless you've tested) because there are too many that just default to B2+.

IAmGilGunderson

🇺🇸 N | 🇮🇹 (CILS B1) | 🇩🇪 A0

14d

That is why I always include the link to the extended checklist. It has a spot where you can evaluate yourself and then your teacher has a spot to evaluate you. I also include a link to the companion volume.

Is anyone gonna actually read it? No. This is a reddit sir.

Holiday_Pool_4445

🇹🇼B1🇫🇷B1🇩🇪B1🇲🇽B1🇸🇪B1🇯🇵A2🇭🇺A2🇷🇺A2🇳🇱A2🇺🇸C2

13d

EXACTLY !!!

69bluemoon69

14d

For me, fluency is more like flow. Like, can I navigate a situation or conversation in the TL even though I may not know every single word? Can I communicate the word I am looking for by using other words?

ExplanationOk2757

🇬🇷🇩🇪 N | 🇬🇧 fluent

14d

calling it a flow is a quite interesting way to view it, like it

Same_Border8074

14d

Knowing the entire dictionary by heart like this guy.

ExplanationOk2757

🇬🇷🇩🇪 N | 🇬🇧 fluent

14d

god damn, never reaching that level, i might as well give up already

ExtremelyQualified

14d

There’s no exact line, but I think it’s when you can consistently speak without getting stuck and listeners don’t have to exert extra effort to figure out what you’re trying to say. C1 and C2 are both “fluent” in my book. B2 is pretty good but still not quite there imho.

Snoo-88741

14d

If you can hold a conversation with a native speaker that isn't on a specialized topic, and neither of you are struggling to understand each other or convey meaning to each other.

Noe_Bodie

En N Es N Pt B1 Ru A1

14d

think this one fits perfectly

[deleted]

14d

To be able to laugh at "general public" jokes in that language.

whosdamike

🇹🇭: 1000 hours

14d

Previous threads you might find of interest:

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/12sbtmi/how_do_you_define_fluency/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/mz0p73/how_do_you_define_fluency/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/g1jhht/how_do_you_define_fluency_in_a_language/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/y5ayeo/how_do_you_set_and_define_your_fluency_goals/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/vbyulr/is_b1_considered_fluent/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/1clpune/what_is_your_definition_of_fluent/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/f6uhiy/what_is_meant_by_conversational_fluency/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/22kogs/lets_talk_about_fluency/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/opi9l/what_does_fluency_mean_to_you/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/11m7r0e/rant_about_fluency/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/1cddsn9/what_is_fluency/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/16mqjk5/ultimate_goal_fluency/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/1c6106d/fluency_levels/

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/3j2wmk/what_does_fluent_really_mean/

You may also find the search function helpful.

ExplanationOk2757

🇬🇷🇩🇪 N | 🇬🇧 fluent

14d

thank you for the threads, really appreciate it :)

Comrade_Derpsky

14d

I would say the following:

Being able to speak spontaneously in a more or less natural manner, i.e. without needing to think too much about which words are correct or how the sentences should be put together.
Being able to speak spontaneously about most topics and handle yourself in in the language in most everyday situations.

johnromerosbitch

14d

In my experience. Everywhere in real life ever it means that sentence formation is a completely automatic process and one is essentially capable of constructing sentences with all the grace and speed of a native speaker, though it does not necessarily mean that one speaks a language accentlessly.

In language learning communities, it seems to mean what most people outside of it call “conversational”. Seemingly purely to be able to call themselves “fluent” and claim that prestigious word for themselves. I find that for most people outside of it “fluent” is essentially the highest bar of “fluency” realistically attainable. One cannot be “more fluent” than “fluent”; it is essentially the highest realistically attainable leve of “fluency” which is typically how words work.

It's also a part of saying that one “speaks” a language. Most people when saying “I speak French” essentially expect the highest level of fluency. For anything less “I speak some French” or “I can get by with my French in everyday conversations” or “I am conversational in French” are used. In my experience, if you say “I speak French.”, then people expect to be able to show you any random French film and expect you to be able to make out everything word for word with no difficulty. Though one may again have an accent in production.

AppropriatePut3142

13d

Yes, even if you go to individual language subreddits people have totally different attitudes. It's only here that I've seen this idea that you can be fluent without verbal fluency lol.

LearnThruLewds

14d

There is an Oral Proficiency Test you can take where you have an interview and then it scores your fluency based on that. You're scores on a scale that broken down in quite a few parts, but I would say anything in the advanced level or above would make you "certified fluent" as that what it takes to "pass" it for things like jobs that require documented proof of fluency

Look up ACTFL OPI in Google images and there are really easy visuals and explanations for their fluency scale

girlimmamarryyou

🇺🇸NL | 🇲🇽🇪🇸B2+ | 🇩🇪A2

14d

Part of why people think of B2 in the CEFR system as the start of fluency is because it’s when people begin to be able to function independently in the language, it’s all about being able to handle the situations that life could throw you into (in the case of a modern language)

[deleted]

14d

I am having a sense of deja vu. Haven't this been discussed ad nauseum already? I am sure if you just use the search function, anyone who has anything to say about this subject has already put in their 2 cents.

KibaDoesArt

14d

Fluency is technically how flowy the language sounds when you speak, which isn't necessary a good measure, by that standard I'm 'fluent' in Spanish because I speak very flowy, but I have a ton of trouble with even common grammar, and id by no means be mistaken for a native speaker

Chaot1cNeutral

14d

For me it's being able to think in the language comfortably, well or not

Very arguable opinion, though

djohnstonb

14d

When people tell you you are

Holiday_Pool_4445

🇹🇼B1🇫🇷B1🇩🇪B1🇲🇽B1🇸🇪B1🇯🇵A2🇭🇺A2🇷🇺A2🇳🇱A2🇺🇸C2

13d

Picture a foreigner speaking your native language to you. We have them in every country. They aren’t as perfect as we are in our native language, but they understand us and can speak back to us in OUR NATIVE language. Do you consider that fluent? I do, but my son, who passed the highest level of the JLPT ( Japanese Language Proficiency Test ) does NOT consider himself to be fluent even though I hear him speak Japanese to his wife and others without batting an eye !!! It all depends on what you call fluent.

UnluckyWaltz7763

🇬🇧🇺🇲 (N) | 🇲🇾 (N) | 🇩🇪 (B1~B2) | 🇨🇳🇹🇼 (B1~B2)

13d

For me, fluent is being able to converse from small talk to deep talks without struggling a lot and also able to enjoy native contents on YouTube

migukin9

13d

I think it means that you can carry on a conversation about most topics from daily life to politics without really thinking about your NL. You don't even need a level of vocabulary, probably over a couple thousand. The ability to single out unknown words, ask what it means, and understand the definition in the TL without much difficulty is probably a big turning point in fluency.

Queasy-Eye3446

10d

BILINGUALISM:

YOU FORGET WORDS IN YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE.
YOUR NOTES ARE IN MULTIPLE LANGUAGES.
SOME MEMORIES ONLY EXIST IN ONE LANGUAGE.

Lily_Raya

10d

That's true

AnnoyedApplicant32

-1

🇺🇸N 🇪🇸N CAT:C2

14d

I am SICK of this question!!!!!!!! Stop asking it! Look it up on google scholar. You’ll find a ton of articles breaking down the diff areas of fluency and what it all means. GOD

Turbulent_One_5771

-5

🇷🇴N | 🇬🇧B2 | 🇪🇸A2 | 🇩🇪A1 | 🇮🇷A1

14d

so what exactly can make someone be considered a fluent speaker in a language?

Being to read literature old literature, with all the flowery archaic language of the past, without having to search more than a few words. That's how I define it, anyway.

Native speakers have nothing to do with it - most of them can't read this kind of books either. I don't consider them fluent. Not being able to read Shakespeare in English, Goethe and Schiller in German and Molière and Racine in French means you cannot speak the language.

That's no excuse for not starting a new language, though.

Linguistic_Turtle

14d

I think that you will find 4 other people on this entire thread that will even remotely agree with you. Saying that fluency is being able to read old texts in the language is almost objectively wrong as it is very detached from the current language being used. Your framework for fluency doesn’t really encompass speaking because nobody talks like Shakespeare unless they are presenting something academic related. Saying that native speakers who can’t read Shakespeare aren’t fluent is just a wild claim lol. Anyways someone respond to this if they disagree and I would very much like to understand why :)

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