So I was applying for some jobs today and this was one of the questions it asked me. This fant be legal can it?
This. The majority of people in this sub answer with such confidence without even knowing what country it applies to. I suspect the average poster thinks everyone is in America.
well the average user IS in America
edit: sorry to trigger the math nerds below me
Well ackshually . . . the modal user is in America. The average user is probably located in the middle of the Indian Ocean without a boat.
Hello, i under the water
Each little snail here
Know how to wail here
That's why it's hotter
Under the water
🎼🎵”Ya we in luck here Down in the muck here Under the sea!”🎵🎶
How do you even average locations on a sphere? Wouldn't you end up in the earth's core somewhere?
Depends on your view of the geometry of the problem.
To wit: https://www.geospatialworld.net/blogs/whacky-map-shows-longest-straight-path-earth/
Modal is a type of average tho…
Mean, median and mode are all what we refer to as 'measures of central tendency'. Most people see mean and also see average, but you are correct in that all of them are averages.
But when the average person says average they don't mean modal average.
Also when the modal average person says average they don't mean modal average
No, what they mean depends on the context. In a mathematical space, if people don’t specify, they mean the mean average. However, in other spaces when people say average, it depends on whatever average is the most relevant. The most relevant average in the context of the nationality of the average redditor is the modal average. Hence the reasoning for why it is a widespread (and true) belief that the average Redditor is an American.
Are there stats for that?
All you have to do is reflect on all the times you have seen or heard someone has recalled an average in a non-academic setting and you will find that most of them refer to the most relevant average type of the context.
Or a plane...
Love this answer!! 😂
you must be fun at parties
Nobody on Reddit is fun at parties 😂
Nobody on Reddit goes to parties without being forced to do so by relatives.
all my friends are nerds, we fit.
The plurality of Reddit users are American, but the majority are not.
It’s 49% to 51% though. Basically a rounding error
Users and active users are an important distinction. Americans use this site at a far higher engagement rate compared to non-American accounts.
The next top 3 are also Anglo countries, and everything below that is <2% and rapidly declines in percentage. So no matter what the representation is going to be overwhelmingly American slanted.
A very American thing to say. So fuck everyone else right?
If it is in a different country, then the OP should post that country.
Different country to where? There is no default reddit country.
You mean you don't assume everyone on Reddit is from Seattle? Because I do, and it is true quite often. 😂
No, I don't live in Seattle.
The fact that Reddit is used by more people from the US and more frequently. It is typically a safe bet to assume that they are from the US, unless otherwise noted. If they were outside of the US, then they should have included that. As we would not be able to provide accurate advice, without knowing their country.
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8mo
You can do whatever you want. lol If people want you to know what state or country they are from when they ask these questions. They can either post it up or just let people guess.
Ah, you know what they say about assumptions....
They make an ass out of u and mptions
That people should not assume that we know where they are from, if they are not from the US? So they should list it, if we need to be aware of any applicable laws?
Yeah there is, it's country of origin
Just to be clear, the users are wrong for assuming that, on an American social media platform, where a significant plurality of the users are American, on a sub where the majority of users can only speak for American experiences, an unspecified post is an American user?
Who the hell goes on /r/jobs and asks about the, say, Indian job market, instead of the relevant sub?
The average american thinks everyone is in america*
^ average YouTube comment
I’ve been on Facebook long enough to know that most users aren’t in America or Canada. I reckon it applies to other social media sites as well.
It’s not a bad assumption, an overwhelming majority are americans
Because this question is asked on just about every single online job application in the US. I'm also going to go out on a ledge and assume that if the official job posting asks this question, it's being asked in a country where it is legal (or required.)
I’ve been filling out tons of online applications (U.S.) and I have NEVER seen that asked…
lol whut? I have never seen this question asked on a job application
I have seen this on a handful of applications I filled out online
Same here, it's been popping up frequently on the applications that I filled out also. My guess is so that they can boast how "inclusive" the company is once the applicant gets hired.
it more of everyone post here thinking everyone here is from the same exact state they live in
Well maybe get off of our social networks then.
And stop using the wi-fi that exists because of Australians. Thanks. 😁😇
Wi-Fi, as we know it today, got it's start in Australia. The internet, however, got it's start in the US. Radio was invented in Italy. Computers, as we know them practically, were invented in Britain. Electricity was discovered in America. Technology is global, and the discoveries made are made by individuals or teams of individuals, so acting like one country is the King of the Hill and entitled to special thanks is kind of silly.
Exactly. Why on earth should anyone say that anything on the internet (social networks or whatever) is the domain of any one particular group of people such that it can be reasonably assumed that all users (in the absence of any descriptor showing otherwise) belong to that group?
We might as well say that all internet users are British, since ARPANET connected to the British research networks and packet switching was invented by a dude at NPL. Or everyone using Bluetooth is Dutch-Swedish. Or everyone watching television is Australian, like me, since the first proto-television was invented in Ballarat (not patented, though, just demonstrated and papers published). Nonsensical.
Actually electricity was discovered in ancient Greece in 600BC. The Greek word for Amber is ëelectron. Then there was William Gilbert in England in the 1600s. In the early 1700s there were machines that produced static for magic shows and such. Then there is Francis Haulsbee who invented neon lights.
All this came before Benjamin Franklin. Americans really love to write their own version of history, don't they?
I suspect the average poster thinks everyone is in America.
Well this app, like most popular social media apps, were all created by Americans.
Yup, even then it also depends on context. Some places gather data about their applicants to make sure the places they are placing the job ads are getting the exposure they want. Meaning they may not be discriminating against you, but if they notice that one source is causing too many of one group to apply, they will shift up how where they show these ads to get a more equal pool.
That is how they are suppose to be doing it and do it legally, that said some places do in fact discriminate in all directions (I think reddit can provide plenty of story's in both directions of this).
If you are a betting person, bet USA. It's like 51% of the traffic to reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/phhu9s/oc\_reddit\_traffic\_by\_country/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Still leaves half of Reddit being outside of the USA. Contrary to what strangely seems to be popular belief amongst Americans, there are 194 countries outside of the USA.
Sure, but those 194 make up the remaining 49% of traffic added together. Reddit’s userbase is overwhelmingly made up of Americans, so assuming that most of the users you interact with are American when lacking any evidence to the contrary is perfectly reasonable, and clearly supported by the data.
Right. My original statement is true and your statement is true.
Iran, is it legal?
Well, let's break it down logically. OP must be from a country where English is the dominant language. With that in mind, it is most likely a country where Western values are law. So such a question for a job application would be considered illegal. Even in Florida of the US, this would be illegal, since it is illegal at the federal level.
Could be Nigeria, Belize or even India. Some of these countries have actually quite a large English speaking population. (They total over 100+ million people who speak English)
You meant state right?
1) 'Is this legal' always depends on where you are.
2) Demographic monitoring has been common in most places for decades, and reddit has recently gotten weirdly freaked out about it
I think the suspicion demographic monitoring might come from some recent trends
The Human Rights Campaign scores organizations on their level of LBGTQ friendliness.
That's true similar hedge funds like BlackRock do the same thing with ESG score but do they score that on stances the company takes or by closely monitoring LBGT representation of employees
And I think a lot of people in the LGBT community don't realize just how valuable that work is. HRC scores organizations on pretty much everything LGBT people would want, benefits for same sex partners, trans healthcare benefits in the insurance policies, comprehensive anti-discrimination policies and training programs to promote tolerance & diversity, etc. Corporations actually want that workplace equality index 100 score sticker to throw up on their hiring page, not just because it helps make them more attractive to LGBT talent, but because people in general like working for employers who create tolerant and diverse work environments. This is something that educated skilled labor types especially tend to value, and not just because LGBT people are more likely to be college educated.
In short, this kind of thing is only a net benefit, and gives me some hope that the crazy conservative pipe dream on Fox News isn't as realistic a possibility as it sometimes seems.
I think doing research into things like the Human Rights Campaign is probably a better representation of the company's stance than trying to extrapolate meaning from a demographic question.
This is uncommon in European countries though throughout decades. Exception may be age and gender but even that is not present in application forms anymore.
I’m not a lawyer but I’ve seen demographic questions on applications for years now on multiple applications for numerous businesses of varying sizes. I feel like if it was illegal, we would know by now or a court would have ruled on it.
Warranty void if removed stickers are illegal but they’re still on everything
cheerful grandfather complete puzzled outgoing rhythm ad hoc joke forgetful overconfident this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev
Yeah, magnuson and moss 1976 I believe
So for a while it was thought that the millennium copyright act voided that ruling thus making them legal again. However that was proven incorrect as the FTC started issuing warnings about them again in 2018.
They're illegal in the sense that declining a warranty based entirely from the sticker being broken or removed cannot be enforced but having the sticker there is itself not illegal.
In this scenario it would be the difference between "you cannot ask about sexual orientation" vs "you cannot decide based on sexual orientation". The former would make it illegal for that question to even be there while the latter wouldn't. As other comments have pointed out it's the latter and so the question itself is perfectly legal to be on a job application form.
No according to the FTC any language that leads a user to believe their warranty can be voided for that is against the law. This should also apply to Apple but the FTC hasn't filed an injunction against them yet.
Yep, I probably would've used the term "aren't legally binding" for the stickers.
Usually they preface the question as optional.
i think “prefer not to say” is the way the question is presented as optional
I've seen both usually. They'll preface it with saying it's optional to fill anything out on the page and then leave an option for "prefer not to say." Usually there's more than one question though.
Depends on the country
It’s 100% legal it’s optional…. that’s why they put “Prefer not to answer” on there. You can choose that option if you don’t want to disclose that information. Besides they can put whatever they want on the application as long as it’s not required for hiring or have a “prefer not to answer”.. you’re not being forced to apply. Unethical possibly but legal.
No. In some countries it's illegal even to ask, and even more to save the answer somewhere.
This is BS. They are using this to pick someone to hire based off of your response. There is no other reason to put it in there!
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8mo
That page says you must report by race and gender, but nothing about any other dimension, unless I'm missing something. Can you please cite exactly where on that website reporting sexual orientation is required?
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8mo
Sure, I'm aware of the legal aspects of why companies want to protect themselves by collecting this data. But reporting anything beyond race and gender to the government isn't required by law at this time.
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8mo
Sigh. In the context of LGBTQIA. Obviously there are plenty of other federal reporting requirements for employers
I would check yes and if they ask just say I'm bisexual. I married the opposite sex and had kids a decade ago. They can't disprove anything.
Yeah I will always mark "Yes" just to fuck with them
Precisely. If they were truly THAT uninterested in any answer you gave, then it wouldn't even be on the form at all.
Now, they're not clearly stating which way they're gonna play it, but mark my words: they're only gonna hire people that check a certain box.
This and other similar questions are required to be asked by large companies for reporting purposes to ensure the job posting reaches/ appeals to and is considered for people of all demographics. It's not nefarious and it's not why you didn't get hired.
It's not illegal to ask.
Incorrect. Not only is diversity monitoring legal in Canada, there's government guidance on how to do it, for example the Canada Research Chairs information at https://www.chairs-chaires.gc.ca/program-programme/equity-equite/best_practices-pratiques_examplaires-eng.aspx
Gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, and religion are common things to be checked for, to ensure that workplaces are not discriminating in hiring practices. Have a table from https://www.multilaw.com/Multilaw/Documents/Canada_Diversity_Monitoring_Checklist.pdf
This says interview questions, but op is being asked in the application process, is there a difference?
Yes, a markedly clear one
Yes, it’s legal.
It's legal to ask. Companies use the responses for data collection only and, in most cases, the people making hiring or promotion decisions don't see the data. The company might include the data in required EEOC reports for certain companies or keep the data in case they have to defend themselves against a discrimination lawsuit.
Government regulations require certain companies to ask these statistical questions, and they have to be voluntary so you can refuse to answer.
Guess you never heard of work opportunity tax credits.
I work on recruitment software and systems and this is a ‘normal’ (depending on location) question to ask through the application process.
99.9% of these questions are answered anonymously and cannot be traced back to your application. Companies use this information to track age,gender, sexuality of applications through the process so that they can report on things such as ‘how many 20-25 year olds got through to interview’ or ‘what’s the % or male to female split that got through initial sift’
Business that have their heads switched on will look at their interviewers and hiring managers to make sure there are no conscious or unconscious bias and make sure training is offered.
I.E. Otisp the Hiring Manager has interviewed 20 candidates, of those 20, 15 were Women and all didn’t make it through to the next stage. This information would allow HR to have a meeting with Otisp the Hiring Manager and talk to him about being his out of touch views.
Hope that helps.
It’s no different than them asking for your race
Yeah they’re both pretty weird to be asked
Assuming you are in the US, this is legal to ask- they just cannot base their hiring decisions on it.
It is definitely useful to understand the statistics of your applicant pool as a whole.
What is the correct answer?
Nope, not illegal. This information is used to help tailor benefits.
"Prefer not to answer". Always. Idc if itnis for govt records. None of their business
When asking for legal advice, always state your country.
Also always state your gender, birth year, last 4 digits of your CC, your mothers maiden name and your sexual orientation.
When asking for legal advice ask a lawyer and not a bunch of randos from the internet who are more concerned about getting updoots than being right.
Why wouldn't it be legal? How else would they check they're not discriminating?
If I hate demographic x and you click x who’s to say I just don’t delete your application?
This shouldn’t be a thing.
That would be a lawsuit waiting to happen and an easy win.
Because their application/hiring data is audited. Plus the people who make the hiring decision don’t see the demographic info.
The recruiters cannot see the demographic data....
That’s false as well. I’m a recruiter. We don’t ask these specific questions at my company, but we can view if someone identifies as a minority. This is a DIA initiative. If you are a qualified minority for the role, we want to interview you.
So in effect, if you're an equally qualified non-minority, but there is only one slot left for an interview, the minority will be selected for that and the non-minority won't?
Not being accusatory, but I suspect this is exactly why some people dislike this even being allowed. It leaves plenty of room for discrimination, regardless of intent (diversity, equity, etc.).
There has been...troubling...data from the largest corporations in the US recently, where their hiring consists of something like 90% minorities for over 300,000 jobs. That's an obvious bias in the hiring process given that whites (non-minorities) make up about 77% of the total labor force, and motive doesn't really matter according to the law.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/
For stupid ass nosy questions like these, always choose "prefer not to answer" 🤷🤷🤷
Is there an award for the Reddit thread with the most wrong answers in it?
If there were just yes or no options probably not legal, but you have a third option, so I don't see what the problem is? Unless you can prove you didn't get hired because you didn't give them an actual answer
I mean they literally ask disability and race related questions, I don't know why you think this is any different
Easy enough to prove... If you don't get hired you now have them by the balls, especially if you are gay.
Prefer not to say is essentially YES, but I fear being discriminated against, for choosing yes.
Or, NO, but none of your f*cking business, so you can make of it what you wish. In which case it gets counted as yes.
The burden of proof now shifts, and you'll have to prove that there could be no discrimination, and you'll have to provide a tangible reason why you need to know someone's sexual orientation.
Because it's posited that if these business owners are homophobes, and they wouldn't hire based on sexual orientation, they will apply that prejudice in that decision. Proving you're not a homophobe while asking such questions is an insurmountable task. Because why else would you need to know?
The problem isn't the question. Asking is legal. Discrimination based on the answer IS NOT. But the need to know is where the problem lies.
And as you can clearly see, it's a slippery slope, so oftentimes the audacity to ask is what people take offence to, and it's that same argument that will be successful in the discrimination case. The only reason it matters is to discriminate, there's simply no other reasons you need to know. Same with religion, I'll bring it up if something you do is contrary to what I believe, but as an employer you cannot refuse to employ based on that. So asking is a red flag.
Because irrespective of the answer, it can't have any influence on a person's employability, that would be discrimination.
Like a dog chasing after a car, it's pointless asking, so just don't.
I notice your username, it appears Afrikaans in origin, potatobread, I might be wrong, it could be Dutch. Regardless, just asking in South Africa, can land you in lots of hot water should the employee know their rights and be eloquent enough to make a good argument. Because even an unsuccessful job applicant can do a CCMA Referral for such discrimination, and they will have a solid argument based solely on the fact that you HAD TO ASK, as if knowing would have changed anything. Especially if they can demonstrate to the commissioner on an online portal.
Disability and race is different in the fact that there are quotas that need to be met, based on the size of your business. Sexual orientation does not. Not here, not anywhere I'm aware of.
I’ve seen that question on a few applications. I believe it’s part of diversity and inclusion.
It depends.
Usually this is a demographic question to ensure fair hiring practices and for reporting purposes. In that situation the answers are anonymous and HR only gets the raw numbers. In this situation it’s fine
If the question is being used to weed out candidates then it’s absolutely illegal
Yes, the data kept from these questions is anonymized.
Just say prefer not to answer.
They probably don’t really care
If you are in the US, as long as it is optional, yes it is legal. It is for diversity reporting.
Accept no advice from this subreddit. These are a bunch of armchair attorneys pontificating about things they have no knowledge or experience with. This all boils down to where you live, where the employer does business, and what laws apply to those places. This changes country to country, state to state, and even city to city. That means that anyone giving you an answer other than "it depends" is wrong. They have zero context about where you live and work, yet are giving answers with confidence. Unfortunately that means a lot of digging into your national and local laws to determine how this applies to your unique situation.
Why would it be illegal, there is a 3rd option lol.
In the US, that info is made blind to the applicant reviewer. It’s purely for reporting purposes, but they cannot consider it when deciding on your candidacy.
Since they provided the prefer not to answer option, you can safely assume that answering this question is voluntary. I can't say for sure if it's legal, but it does look shady.
What business is it of theirs and why should it matter at all?
Yes. To get 100% of the Corporate Equality Index (basically an assessment of how LGBTQ+ friendly your company is), companies need to be asking their employees if they are LGBTQ. It’s similar to asking if you have a disability or are a disabled veteran - it should be an optional answer like above.
It’s not illegal to ask, but I’d decline to answer as I do with all demographic questions
the question itself isn't (in the us) but the answer will 100% be used to discriminate in one way or another
“Is it legal to ask questions”
(In the US) There are times in the hiring process where it is illegal to ask certain questions. For example, as an interviewer, you may not ask if somebody has children.
Is it legal to discriminate based on the answer?
NO, MOST CERTAINLY NOT - based solely on constitutional rights.
Think about it for a moment...
Why then, does one have to ask?
Like a dog chasing after a car? What are they going to do with it?
You see, the legality of posing the question is irrelevant, it's the need to know that raises a red flag 🚩
If they’re asking this then it’s likely they’re not a good place to work. So in a way it’s a blessing to know this before you go through any application process. Oh and it’s a dumb question.
I believe "prefer not to answer" gives corporations a legal out. Equivalent to "allegedly".
What's fucked up is answering yes to this will put you at the front of the line when in reality it should have no impact.
Why would the company care? That seems like an awfully personal question.
99% also asking about race and it's perfectly legal.
It’s only illegal if they have only yes/no answers. But you can prefer not to answer. But in all honesty. Who really gives a fuck.
They forgot the +, those damn biggots.
In my country that could be viewed as a way to ask a person about their sexuality, and that would be a very distasteful thing to ask for and not legal to boot.
Why are you bothered by it?… you have the option not to answer.
I’m pretty sure the gov is the one who wants to know the answer to this.
If you answer yes, the company can put you as a psycho. If you answer no, they out you as a PoS. The only response would be prefer not to answer, and even that looks guilty.
EDIT: I feel the need to clarify, to conservatives, psycho. To liberal ideology, POS.
I just want to know when they're gonna quit adding letters
I'm 99% sure that's illegal. Unless the laws have been changed without it being plastered all over the news, Federal law prohibits discrimination based on, among other things, sexual orientation or identity.
EDIT: I guess I'm incorrect. Must have misread or just missed reading the law. Thanks for the corrections.
All employers ask your gender, age, and race.
It’s not illegal…
Just answer yes, they can't prove anything and give yourself any random word for pronoun
It’s for ESG scores. Companies are hiring more people of minority and alphabet people to boost their scores.
This is to comply with the Affirmative Action quotas that you have been assured don't exist.
In the US the following data:
- Race
- Ethnicity
- Sexuality
- Disability
- Veteran (and protected Veteran) status
Are all hidden from the HR and hiring manager and are send by the company to the department of labor for statistics and data tracking purposes.
It's not illegal, but it's immoral. Either to deny or affirm the candidacy.
This is a company looking to hire a specific demographic which is sucky imo, because even if you're super qualified you could still be shut down because they need to fill a diversity quota.
These days, it wouldn't surprise me if your employer was legally REQUIRED to ask this.
It has been required for companies of 100+ people since 1966.
No it hasn't, and I have no idea where you even came up with that. I have never had a job ask that on any form including my current job which I've been at since 2021. The whole collection of letters didn't even EXIST in 1966.
You literally pulled that out of your ass.
You are wrong, stop pulling things out of YOUR ass. Here is the link https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/legal-requirements
Lol. There is absolutely nothing there stating that anyone had to ask an applicant if they were "LGBTQIA" in 1966. If they're required to now, it's a RECENT change, not something that existed in 1966 as I don't even believe the abbreviation "LGBT" existed back then, much less the extra letters they keep adding to it.
Edit: I called this pud on his bullshit and now he blocked me because he couldn't admit he was wrong.
So they know who to hire and who not to hire
Just say yes. I always do now. I got an extra $1000 for completing my apprenticeship for filling that out 😂
Basically if someone says yes then part of their income is supplemented by Brandon
I dont think it is. Im actually sure. What part of the world are you from?
I’ve never seen it for a job application. I have seen it later once hired as an option if you wish to self-identify.
What is the best answer to put? Leave blank or prefer not to answer? If you say yes they can discriminate against you or can say they’re filling a quota / diversity
Aren't we all part of a community? So if my sister is bi, then I'm part of that community. I'm just bisexual, once removed
The “ethnicity” question is as questionable as this one.
I would be but I cannot find anywhere to hand in my application.
Simply put: Prefer not to answer. None of their business.
Not in US. Refuse to answer and ask what it has to do with the duties of the job.
Its legal. They get scores for hiring people of certain demographics. Whats not legal is not hiring you depending on this answer, but good luck proving that.
Do not trust literally anybody here for the answer to this question. Find a local employment lawyer and ask them. They'll probably give you the answer for free and offer to represent you if it is illegal.
The answer is always yes to this question now.
The fact it's even on a resume shows how fucked we are as a country to cater to less then 1% of 1% of a population. AND THEY DONT EVEN KNOW WHY.. .fucking insulting to our forefathers.
This is just fucked up. It‘s like asking if you are a nazi and saying no will put you on the rejected list.
White and straight and when I see that shit I put Hispanic and gay. Why get a leg down over quotas?
Depends on which country you are in.